Ryan Duggins dishes on how to break the ice on the underground.
This article originally appeared at AskMen.com.
Approaching someone you are physically attracted to and don’t know, in any situation, requires the bravery of a soldier.
Luckily for us in 2012, meeting sexual prospects in the age of social media, online dating and listings means that all most of us have to do to fulfill that human need for contact is to fill out a small profile, include a thumbnail picture and describe what our favorite album is.
But the ease that the internet brings to dating takes its toll. Suddenly, contemplating talking to someone while in line for a coffee, or standing in a cramped tube, becomes the equivalent of jumping out of an airplane with no safety parachute. But if you think that sounds scary, try approaching women on the District Line train at 8 a.m. on a Monday morning. That’s what I’m about to do.
Nerves aside, your day would be made even before it really began if you had a flirty chat with a good-looking girl about the price of a breakfast bap at the delicatessen. But if we all know this, and are too scared to try it, then does that mean we’re pretty much screwed? Is it really that difficult and cringe-inducing to ask a woman you haven’t spoken to what she’s reading? I’ve dated girls I’ve met in the daytime before, but I’ve never taken someone out that I originally met on a train. Today seems as good as any to test those tracks.
The London Underground travels hundreds of thousands of single women from one important meeting to another on a daily basis, so I figure this should be easy as I’m presented with one beautiful, successful woman after another on a conveyor belt that only ends when the trains do. If the law of averages is a theory that rings true, this should be like shooting fish in a barrel. Or fishing for women in a cramped train where they can’t move, if you would prefer.
What time is it? Go time.
With my best shirt on, tight trousers and a fresh shave, I jump on my first tube. I scope out my surroundings, trying to identify not so much individuals, but vantage points and how people act when commuting. I’m looking at the blank skeleton-stares of my fellow travelers, thinking how hard this might actually be when taking into consideration that no one wants to be here, and no one wants to be disturbed from their coma-like states as they wait for their stop.
Assurance of interest has to take a back seat in these surroundings. It’s not like in a bar where you have a solid 30 minutes at least to consider approaching the person who’s been giving you the eye. There’s a time limit here, so you can’t afford to waste any jittering your knees. I sit down, and shared what I thought was a third glance with the girl in front of me reading a magazine. I find I get away with being mildly insulting when flirting, so I look at my feet like I don’t care what her response is, and say the following:
“God that looks boring.”
I keep my head down hoping to be alerted by a response of something sexy like, “Oh, and what would you know about what I like?”, which would be the start of a definite exchange of numbers. But I hear nothing. Silence. My pride stops me from raising my head. She hasn’t even threatened to respond. I shake off the discouragement, lift my head, put my elbows on my knees and look at her, in a sort of cool, arrogant way which I thought she’d buy. But she gets up and walks past me, her coat gently slapping me as she turns to step off the train. I need a new approach.
Being a bit of a cocky bloke has always got me results as I have a non-threatening face and I’m only 5’7”, so I stick with what I know and grab a newspaper from the seat next to me. This is train number two, as I obviously couldn’t stay on the one before. My cover was blown. I take a seat next to someone who I shared a glance with as the doors opened to the train. I open to the London What’s On pages, where adverts of the various different West End shows are placed. I open the paper wide so that she can see what I’m reading, tilting it her way so as to offer her the story. Same technique, different head position.
“Is that any good?” I say to the confused target.
I don’t turn my head or point to a specific show. “I’m sorry, are you talking to me?” she responds. “Yes indeed, now, have you seen this show? I might go,” I say without really looking at her yet. We need to initiate a proper discussion for our faces to be turned. She is neither warming to my approach nor cold to it. Just mildly tempted and slightly concerned that I may be a bit mental.
“Do you usually talk rubbish to strangers?”
Yes, you’re thinking what I’m thinking aren’t you? I’m in there, she’s a bit of a “banter-babe” who likes to poke fun and playfully argue. Oh my, I can see us tickling each other into submission with only our sheets to cover us in no time. I smile to myself, and turn to what I expect will be a cheeky grin with a raised eyebrow. This was not the case, as I turn to see her place her second earphone from her loud iPod into her ear.
Cheeky doesn’t work in London, a place where boring modern-chick lit novels are set and couples hold hands whilst taking arms length pictures of themselves near the Thames river.
Awkwardness, shyness and borderline Aspergers is what I need here. No bullish penis-swinging antics, just an awkward moment turned into light chatting is the key. I have a plan.
A variety of unintentional mishaps is pretty much standard procedure in cramped conditions, but I’ve never seen them as a chance to pick up. They are the only things that ever spark interaction in situations such as this, and even if that is only a nervous shudder of “Oh I’m sorry,” it’s still something. I stand in the middle of a crammed train, holding onto an upright bar and bracing for the journey, but it seems that a rather pretty brunette has her hand about two inches below mine on the bar. I look away, and “unintentionally” put my hand on hers.
She quickly moves it lower from mine. Her head is cocked towards me. I obviously remove my hand with haste, and apologize. “Oh don’t worry, it’s fine,” she replies as she goes to return her head to face the window. “It was a bit awkward though,” I spurt, before she has the chance to settle. She turns back toward me and giggles at my observation. I stop my tongue from throwing out such arsery as “But it was the most action I’ve had in ages,” and just plow away with a lighthearted conversation about how busy it gets on this train at this time. It doesn’t matter what the topic is, people enjoy talking to people when they feel comfortable. Especially people like Sarah, a 24-year-old buyer for a clothing outlet based in the city.
We exchanged numbers and agreed to drop each other a line. I would have gone with the Facebook exchange, but we’re underground so I didn’t want to risk not finding her when I had enough phone signal to search.
You can meet anyone, at any point, wherever you are, as long as you break the ice gently and find something to talk about. We all like to talk, and share, and discuss things, so every once in a while it’s important to be reminded that this is possible without the aid of a computer screen. Even if that reminder comes in the form of a slightly creepy premeditated plan of romance.
Now, do I tell Sarah I have a girlfriend and that this was an experiment, or shall I just not text her? Hmmm. I’ll wait for her to call.
Photo credit: Flickr / plusgood
About AskMen
I read this the other day, and I have to say it makes it sound a lot easier than it actually is. I can’t start conversations with any strangers in any situation. Truly terrifying.
I think you need to be careful about touching a stranger and trying to make it seem like an “accident.” That strikes me as creepy and intrusive. Also, I’ve alqays hated it when guys try to talk to me on crowded public transportation because I feel trapped. If they are bothering me, I can’t get away. If I tell them I’m not interested, I have to stand there next to him for the rest of the ride and it’s very, very awkward.
I find the affected behaviour in this article a bit creepy, but especially the ‘accidental’ touching. That is intrusive and stepping well over the line. That’s not only invading her personal space, but that is purposefully making her uncomfortable so that you can apologize for it and then make yourself seem like a ‘nice guy’ who’s just a bit ‘socially awkward.’
I get that this was an experiment…but it just seems a bit backwards for the goal to be the pick-up, rather than the person. Surely in a space like public transportation, approaching someone should be about that individual, not about being able to pick someone up. I’ve had lovely conversations with people on trains and I’ve had really awkward conversations with people on trains.
I’ve only rarely ever had what I consider a creepy encounter on public transportation, and those have always been with people who obviously weren’t interesting in chatting with me, but rather were interested in chatting me up. Or rather, were interested in chatting anyone up, and I just happened along.
Society creates different spaces for different purposes. Bars, pubs, clubs, etc are spaces which have been created with the purpose of going out on the pull. To bring similar behaviour into a subway can seem creepy because it’s behaving in ways that are not appropriate for the created space. It’d be like shouting in a library or running up on stage during a West End musical.
Which, I want to be clear, I’m not saying don’t talk to people on the subway. As I said, I’ve had some lovely conversations with people on public transportation. I’m not even saying don’t hit on someone…because I’ve also exchanged numbers with someone on the subway. I’m saying, recognize the space you’re in…don’t go on the pull in a subway.
Maybe it is the fact that I have zero experience, but I honestly don’t get the difference. Who is going to start a conversation on the subway just to start a conversation? I mean, I can see certain instances where this may happen, but I feel like generally it is going to be to flirt. What is the difference between hitting on someone and going “on the pull?” What IS on the pull? Maybe it is just me, but I’d rather talk to someone on the subway than at a bar/pub/etc as that is a situation where it is MUCH more intimidating.
“On the pull,” is a British phrase meaning going out to get laid, pretty much…with that being the goal. It’s like saying – I’m going out tonight and I’m not leaving the club until I’ve got someone’s number.
“Who is going to start a conversation on the subway just to start a conversation?”
This is something I find problematic and a little worrying. I’m not always prowling for pussy. Sometimes I talk to people (men and women) just to have a human interaction. I see someone reading something interesting, or maybe I like someone’s clothes, or someone looks like a celebrity…or any number of million things, and I might make a comment. And maybe they’ll comment back, and then we have a conversation. And, sometimes that turns into a longer conversation, particularly if it’s a longer train ride, and maybe it’ll mean exchanging numbers. But then I’m exchanging numbers with an individual…because public transportation isn’t a space created for picking people up.
A lot of the problem with what this article is discussing is evident in the language used. It’s discussing women as “targets,” and acts as though getting into a woman’s pants is a mission that needs to be accomplished. Women aren’t targets, they’re just people. Talk to them like you would when you meet a stranger who’s a guy…I think it’s strange to go into a conversation with a woman with the purpose of having sex with her. At least, that’s a strange thing to do on a subway, or at the grocery store…or any number of public spaces. As I said, we’ve created social spaces for such interactions…and if a bar is too intimidating then use online dating, or speed dating, or singles nights, or any number of spaces created specifically with the purpose of meeting someone.
I think one of the problems for men especially is that if we start a conversation with a woman or even say something TO a woman it is automatically assumed that we’re trying to hit on them and get in their pants. I really am into nice clothing and living in NYC, I will often see women with really interesting things on. I never make a comment like, “Oh, I really like your skirt/shoes/boots/whatever-i-like” because I operate under the assumption that she will think I am hitting on her. Then again, I also operate under the assumption that I’m not allowed to find women attractive and let them know I find them attractive because I believe that makes me a creep.
A book was going to be the one example I was going to use as a non-hitting on topic of conversation. I don’t have conversations with strangers who are guys, so I can’t say anything about that. Perhaps I should write about the male experience of online dating… it’s truly soul crushing. I know I mentioned elsewhere that I’ve had a complete profile that I’ve been told is good including numerous pictures and I’ve had a grand total of 7 visitors since I made it in September.
As for online dating…there’s a million and a half sites with a million and a half members. I’d suggest making profiles on a few of them. As for whether I assume someone is coming onto me whenever they talk to me, well no I don’t. I think if men think that, it’s forgetting the insecurities women often have about their own appearance and attractiveness. I’ve come onto women before who patently refused to believe I was hitting on them…because they didn’t think they were attractive enough.
As for complimenting her on her clothing…well in NYC chances are they’ll just assume you’re gay, actually.
Joking aside…again I think the problem is that you’re like, going in with a plan. I get that men have to worry about seeming like a creep, but like I said in my first comment here, the only times I’ve felt like a guy was being a creep was when it seemed like he wasn’t talking to me, but rather just trying to find the right phrase to say to get into my pants. Real, genuine human interaction and conversation doesn’t make me feel creeped out, even when it’s awkward.
I’m pretty sure the experience will be the same on every site. I honestly believe online dating is even worse for men than face-to-face interaction is. It is a bloodbath. You can send out 100 well thought out messages and not even get a “thanks for your interest, but I’m not feeling it.” I try sometimes to think that people aren’t thinking about my flaws and noticing things like the scar on my ear and are more worried about what I’m thinking about them. It is much easier said than done.
Everyone assumes I’m gay already anyway . =( My entire life everyone has assumed that I’m gay. It really infuriates me.
I guess I’m super paranoid about coming off as a creep. I am afraid to smile or say hello because I think they’ll think I’m a creep.
With regards to people not responding back…I’m guessing it’s more to do with them being so worried about their own dating problems. Sometimes people can be so worried about their own issues that they fail to recognize that they’re lacking common courtesy. Joss Whedon had a great little sound bite about it in an interview he did about Buffy (yeah, I’m a Buffy fan). So I’m willing to bet a lot of what you thought was someone purposefully ignoring you out of dislike for what you consider your flaws is mostly just people concerned with their own flaws. They’ve probably got 100 messages out themselves that aren’t getting answered, and they’re too worried about those to think about replying to the message they got that they weren’t completely interested in. Or, maybe they’re so worried that they’ve convinced themselves that the one message expressing interest was just some nice guy being sweet…he’s not really interested in me, he’s just pretending to make me feel better.
And I’m sure thrown in there are some ass-hats who just can’t be bothered to reply back because they’re mean. And trust me, I know it’s easier to think about this sort of stuff logically from an outsider perspective than when it’s happening to you.
Anyway, as for everyone assuming your gay…I say embrace it. Look at David Walliams.
All I know is that the online dating experience for men and women are completely black and white. I just don’t have the internal fortitude to send out hundreds of thought out messages that took me time to write and get absolutely no response.
I’m also not sure how embracing it would work. It is both flattering (getting hit on by what are objectively very attractive men) and also depressing (not having any women show any interest ever… I assume because they think I’m gay). With that said, I suppose there are ways that I could have it work to my advantage. If women assume I’m gay, they’re probably less likely to feel threatened or creeped out by me talking to them. If I were more unscrupulous I would play it up and see if I couldn’t turn it into having a woman try to sleep with a gay guy as I do hear that happens.
I don’t even know who David Walliams is!
The first time I tried computer dating was at the very beginning of it all, around 1994. I was 28 at the time. (Oops, now I’ve given away my age!) I posted a profile on Prodigy.com. There weren’t even any photos in those days, it was all text. I wrote like 3 sentences, saying I was 28, single, looking for guys between the ages of 25 and 35 who were college educated and liked music and lived within 25 miles of my location. Within the first 24 hours, I had over a hundred emails. Within the first week, it was like 600 emails. I felt like I was getting email from every guy on Prodigy within 300 miles between the ages of 18 and 65. I was completely overwhelmed. I tried to send replies to everyone but I couldn’t keep up. Keep in mind, none of these guys even had a CLUE what I looked like! I could have been a 500 pound uggo! And they still emailed me!
There was no way I could respond to everyone. I quickly gave up even trying to stay on top of it.
I felt bad about all the guys who emailed me and didn’t get a response. It wasn’t a reflection on them at all. I was just swamped.
I don’t know how you can make yourself stand out in that kind of environment. I’m just telling you this story so you won’t beat up on yourself too much.
David Walliams is a British comedian. He was really coy about his sexuality for a long time, and due to his personality and behaviour a lot of people assumed he was gay or bi.
Anyway, my comment about embracing it was meant to be light-hearted, not serious. I get mistaken for straight all the time, and I just refuse to let it get me down.
I’m not saying lie to women about it…because that’s dishonest. I’m saying, if you think someone is assuming your gay…maybe make a joke out of it. It could be the start of a conversation.
Incidentally, for a hilarious movie about a guy pretending to be gay to get a woman, watch Pillow Talk. By itself it’s not that funny…the hilarious bit is that Rock Hudson was actually closeted. He’s a closeted guy playing a straight guy, who was pretending to be gay to get close to a woman. So funny.
No one should have to embrace an assumption that does not fit their identity. Should transmen embrace the assumption that they’re female if they don’t sufficient pass as male to some people?
Actually I know transmen who are forced to either make a fuss or just let shit go when they’re gender is misidentified. Hell, I’m not trans and I’ve had my gender misidentified, and I had to make a decisions whether to shrug it off or not.
Mind, misidentifying sexual orientation and misidentifying gender are two very different things. Gender is much more obviously performed and indicated by appearance. Frankly everyone I meet assumes I’m straight…and do I get furious about it? No…frustrated, yes, but not furious.
But that’s besides the point. I wasn’t actually suggesting he had no grounds for being frustrated that people are misidentifying him. My reference to David Walliams was meant to indicate the light-hearted nature with which I made that comment.
To be fair, assuming someone is straight is much safer than assuming someone is not. More than 90% of the population is straight.
You’re right; it is safer. If I am wrong in identifying someone as straight who isn’t, chances are they’ll either ignore it or quietly correct me. If I’m wrong in assuming someone is lgbt and they’re not, I risk verbal and physical harassment. Which is why, in the interest of self preservation, I tend to behave as if everyone is straight until I’m either proven otherwise or at least get a sense that if I assume someone is lgbt they won’t pounce on me if I’m wrong.
This is a bit off topic…but actually it’s probably not ‘more than’ 90% but rather ‘about’ 90%. It’s difficult to know for sure, considering so many people are so closeted. Also, I’m pretty sure the 10% stat only included gay men and lesbians…so that doesn’t even count bisexual people, or unidentified, etc.
And regardless of exactly how big the straight majority is, assuming that I belong to it is tiring and somewhat insulting. Whenever someone asks me whether I have a boyfriend, or whatever, it just goes to show how deeply ingrained the normative aspects of heterosexuality are. I mean, would it kill them to ask about whether I have a ‘partner,’ or whether I’m ‘seeing anyone?’ or something like that? Just use gender neutral terms and give me an opening to either tell you my sexual orientation without me feeling like I’m having to shoehorn it into a conversation or make some big statement about it.
Sorry, I’m going off on a bit of a tangent.
“Gender is much more obviously performed and indicated by appearance.”
People weren’t misidentifying Collin as gay because they saw him having sex with a man beside a mall fountain. “Gaydar” is based on stereotypes that are founded on expectations of gender. Most people assume a man is gay because he is not performing masculinity “correctly.” “Gaydar” is based entirely on someone’s appearance and mannerisms that are not derived from sexual orientation.
“My reference to David Walliams was meant to indicate the light-hearted nature with which I made that comment.”
Would you light-heartedly tell a transman you didn’t know personally to just “go with” assumptions that he’s female?
It seems like throwaway comments that would be considered offensive are allowed when they’re directed at straight white males.
“I guess I’m super paranoid about coming off as a creep. I am afraid to smile or say hello because I think they’ll think I’m a creep.”
No you’re not. You not worried about it at all…
Let’s review…
You insulted a woman’s choice of reading out of the blue, when she didn’t respond you widened your stance and began a staring contest until she felt so uncomfortable and left…
You intentional touched someone without their permission faux-accidentally…
You clearly *ARE NOT* worried about what is going on in the other person’s mind…
MODERATOR’S NOTE: Please see Julie’s comment — you are addressing Collin when the examples you are giving are from the author of the post.
FYI, you are responding to Collin and the examples given were written by a different person, the author. Collin isn’t the person you should be addressing with those complaints.
“I think one of the problems for men especially is that if we start a conversation with a woman or even say something TO a woman it is automatically assumed that we’re trying to hit on them and get in their pants. ”
YOU were speaking them with the intent to bed them in this exercise.
They probably picked up on it and were put off.
How is that at all hard to understand?
Collin did not do this exercise written in the article.
“Bars, pubs, clubs, etc are spaces which have been created with the purpose of going out on the pull….if a bar is too intimidating then use online dating, or speed dating, or singles nights, or any number of spaces created specifically with the purpose of meeting someone.”
Clubs are for dancing and are the WORST environment for picking up girls. Clubs are loud, crowded, and most women are extremely unapproachable. Bars are slightly better but I even women in bars often claim they are there to have a good time with friends…not to get picked up. And online dating is as Collin stated a blood bath. Women get far more messages than men because its simply too easy to message women online. Sites like Eharmony improve things by restricting the number of women you can communicate with. And then there is the complete bullshit of online dating…the horribly evil and dehumanizing concept of profiles, the endless hoops: first read the profile, then craft a message, then wait for a response (which mostly never happens), then chat for a while, then finally go out on a date. Fuck that shit. Meeting a person in real life is much more efficient.
I guess, and this is just my perspective Collin, is that some people start conversations just to pass the time. Or to flirt with no expected outcome because the experience is pleasurable. I got into a a wonderful conversation at the airport the other day. No outcome, just a nice short talk.
However, I’d say the bigger the city on average (London, NYC) the more likely people are going to be on guard and shut down on public transport. Here in Austin, you can’t go anywhere without someone chatting you up. So, here it’s just friendlier in general, and people are expecting that a casual conversation is ok.
Picking up a person using methodical techniques seems well, methodical at best and manipulative at worst as if the goal is the sex, not the person or the conversation or seeing where it might go. Note I’m saying person, because no doubt each gender employs techniques and for me, the more planful the technique is (in this case our author used the phrase “target” I assume tongue in cheek), the less appealing the situation seems to me. The scenario where he touched the girl on purpose accidentally, seems the most manipulative to me (pretending to be someone he was not and starting the relationship with an untruth), and thus the most unattractive.
I’d feel similarly about a woman faking out hair color or push up bras or pretending to like a sports team she hated to get a particular man…like…look for dudes who like what you like and then you can both enthusiastically LIKE those things together. Seems like a lot of effort to go this other way.
I’d say though, that of the three scenarios, he also happened to get a friendly extroverted chick the third time who probably honestly found him attractive. So it may not have been the technique that worked, but the fact that she was open to talking anyway.
That’s just me. But I don’t view sex and relationships as a win/lose war of the sexes kind of thing.
“However, I’d say the bigger the city on average (London, NYC) the more likely people are going to be on guard and shut down on public transport.”
Yeah that’s definitely true too. The vast majority of the time I use public transport, particularly in huge cities, I don’t talk to anyone. I’m not being rude, I’m just busy. I’m rushing onto the train, then rushing off…rushing out of the subway stop…rush, rush, rush. And I’ll be surrounded by a whole bunch of other people who are also rushing around…it’s not the sort of calm environment that makes for good conversation. If I said ‘hi’ to even half the people I saw, I wouldn’t get anywhere.
Julie to the rescue again. Saved me a long response. I’ve had the same experience in Texas as well. In the US I’ve found that in the midwest you can get chatted up, but on the coasts you’ll be considered a bit of a weirdo. Pretty sad really. I’ve never had any good advice for Collin, but unless things have changed I’d say move to Texas or the midwest. I’m nothing but average at best and I’ve had a number of great conversations with attractive women who weren’t creeped out or unhappy to have a lengthy conversation with me. They actually wait to see if you’re a creep before passing judgement. So get packed and get moving. Seems extreme, but extreme situations sometimes….
“I guess, and this is just my perspective Collin, is that some people start conversations just to pass the time. Or to flirt with no expected outcome because the experience is pleasurable”
When most of your basic needs are satisfied then you start thinking this way. If you were starving and unemployed you wouldn’t have conversations just to pass the time. Your conversations would be focussed on getting food. Now the person your talking to may feel highly inconvenienced and pressured because of this if they are well fed and employed. But that is because they simply aren’t in the same situation you are in.
sigh… and again.. “omg approaching women carries the risk of inducing fear and making them uncomfortable”
… solution, don’t
No, the solution is be smart about where and how. If you see a chick on a crowded subway with headphones on…she’s shut down and blocked out. If you see a girl at a coffeeshop looking at the magazine you are reading and she smiles….she’s open and interested.
And the better you get at knowing, the more risk one is able to take in the gray zones. His third attempt could have been his technique or it could have been she was an open friendly person who liked talking on subways.
Well, here’s another thing. Do women actually smile at men first? I’ve never had this happen in my entire life. I hear all these things that supposedly happen, and they never happen to me. Makes me wonder if I’m just unattractive, lol.
Dunno if all women do. I smile at lots of people. I’m super friendly though.
@Collin, I know this comment is a few days late, anyway, don’t feel bad if you can’t get a girlfriend. Figure out what it is about yourself that you can value. Find your own identity aside from women, or the pursuit of women. It’s sad that our society puts such shame on men who cannot find women, but seriously don’t feel shamed. Figure out what you want in your life, not in regards to women, and then figure out what it is that defines your identity and then embrace it, live it, and realize no one can take that away from you. Once you get to that point and you still want to talk to a women then fine, but be 100% sure at that time that you don’t need the approval of the women you talk to to be happy. This goes for both men and women, gay and straight, but no one should be in your life unless they help make your life better, and if the search for a woman is harming your life then let it go, it’s not important!
Guys who write these kind of articles about meeting women around and about all seem to live in big cities.
I’d be interested in reading about how guys in rural areas meet women.
I like the article- I think the bottom line is that you have to be able to take risks. If you are sitting around complaining about not meeting anyone, and you never go out and try, then you really have no grounds to complain. Of course, you need to consider your environment, but the common denominator in any environment is to have a positive, engaging attitude.
Let me add- being prepared to take risks also means being able to handle rejection.
I can count on one hand the number of times I have had decent and interesting conversations with cute guy strangers on the subway or suburban train….
The rest of the encounters involved groping, weird noises (lip-smacking or whistling, once even by the train conductor!), and the guy touching himself…..UGGGHH! That’s right ….I have never been approached inappropriately by people who look like Viggo Mortenson or Michael Fassbender…. the people who do creepy things look, well, ….creepy!
There is an iPhone and Droid app (iHollaback!) for reporting harassing or touchy-feely creeps on the street or subway….I wish the guys I encountered on public transportation were polite and just asked me what I was reading or discussed the latest news (but that is so rare!)
Basically what you are saying here is that you’ve never been inappropriately approached by men you consider attractive. Aside from all the talk of personal space violations, you are saying, “man I find attractive == not creepy. Man I find unattractive == creepy.”
Calling a man a creep is about the worst thing you can call a man.
If George Clooney himself approached me on the subway and started playing with himself, yes I’d find that creepy.
Women can be creepy too. … A male friend of mine was just telling me how a “creepy” older woman was hitting on him at a bar the other night; she was really drunk and kept talking about her open relationship with her husband (who was present). My friend was seriously creeped out.
Though I agree it’s usually an insult aimed at men.
Please read what she said and how she said it. Perhaps she didn’t mean to say that men she finds unattractive are creepy and those that she finds attractive aren’t, but that is clearly what she stated. “I have never been approached inappropriately by people who look like Viggo Mortenson or Michael Fassbender…. the people who do creepy things look, well, ….creepy!” This is equating good looking with their approach not being creepy.
Agreed, it sounds like she is saying that it’s the creepy-looking guys who act creepy. I don’t agree with that.
No no no, reverse it! She said the men who behave creepy often (okay, she implies ALWAYS) also look creepy or unattractive. Not that men who she considers unattractive are all creepy. And for all we know, that’s true to her experience.
She is equating good looking men with not being creepy.
Well. Think of it this way… the guy who doesn’t think of social mores enough to keep from masturbating in public probably is also too concerned with hygiene. Correlation is not causation.
Many good looking guys don’t end up being creepy because they are normally socialized. An attractive guy, however, CAN be totally creepy…
I have been riding the subways and commuter trains since I was 11 or 12 years old….yes, those men who approached me were creepy-looking…even creepier because I was so young….
I still look young for my age despite being middle-aged…the particular guys who have approached me would definitely give a bad feeling to any other woman (believe me, you would have moved away from them, too, if you were a woman!)…
Calling a man a creep because of how he looks is the same as calling a woman a filthy whore because of the way she dresses.
The more I think about it, there is no comparison. There aren’t many things that ANYONE can be called that is worse than creep.
I think most women probably have some form of “creepdar” (akin to gaydar) to alert them to the presence of potentially threatening or untrustworthy men, and the sensitivity of each woman’s creepdar is relative to her experience with men in public. For example, living in ruralish Ohio (not in farm country, but not in a big city either), my experience has NOT included a lot of unwelcome attention from strange men. So I tend to be more trusting of strangers until they give me a reason to be suspicious – which leaves me vulnerable to potential dishonest or mal-intentioned me, but also means I don’t shut down every time a stranger talks to me in public. But a woman living in NYC has a totally different experience – from what I understand from articles on dating written by NYC ladies, you can’t walk from your apartment to the nearest Starbucks without being hit on, catcalled or harassed. So her creepdar is probably much more sensitive than mine, and she might label a man a creep who I would see as totally benign. I assume it’s probably similar in the author’s city of London.
Honestly for me it usually comes down to intuition. I saw a doctor at an UrgentCare facility last year when I hurt my foot, and even though he didn’t do anything overtly creepy, I got a very odd vibe from him (no better way of putting it) and felt uncomfortable with him, and I would not go back to see the same doctor again. Part of it was because he talked to me like I was a 12-year-old with a skinned knee (tone of voice and dumbed-down language and grinning the whole time), not a 24-year-old concerned that she’d broken a toe. It wasn’t sexual or inappropriate or anything like that, but it was off-putting and it put me on the defensive. Meanwhile, last weekend I was walking down a street in the nearest big city when a man that I passed said to me “Hey pretty lady, how you doing?” and I said “Great!” and smiled but kept on walking, as I really had no reason to stop and talk to him and was already late for the event I was attending. But he didn’t really set off my creepdar, I wasn’t afraid of him or made uncomfortable by his attention.
Just a little theory and perspective on how women react to unknown men talking to them in public, from my experience and observations.
But you shouldn’t be allowed to label random men creeps. Is it fair for me to look at random women on the street and label them filthy c**ts? No, it isn’t. It would be incredibly offensive if I did. Labeling men creeps is even more offensive and disgusting. Basically, what you are saying is that it is alright for women to be sexist around men. If I told you I got an uncomfortable vibe around black people, you’d call me a racist. But it is perfectly acceptable for women to say that men are threatening, label us creeps which equates us to predators, and the like. You know who is a creep? Jerry Sanduski. You know who isn’t a creep? The random doctor in your example or some guy saying hi on the street.
She isn’t labeling ‘random men’ as creeps. The doctor… COULD’VE avoided creeping her out by speaking to her like a normal adult human…. instead he choose to talk to her like a child or moron. That is what creeped her out… HIS BEHAVIOR.
If you don’t want to be labeled a creep… don’t do creepy things. Very plain and simple.
Yes, she is. The onus to change sexist and bigoted behavior is not on the victim, which in these cases is the person being called a creep for no good reason. If you don’t want to be labeled a skank, don’t do skanky things. Of course, this can be interpreted as anything from showing some ankle to having sex on the subway. So it is completely fine for me to label you a skank because you wear tank tops? Because that is essentially what you’re saying in the inverse.
This is so offensive I can’t even put into words how offensive it is.
One of the horrible things about the “creep” label is that it is virtually indestructible. It is impossible to get rid of or to “test out of” once you’ve been branded. There is no way to prove to anyone’s satisfaction that you are not, and no way to prove that you used to be but aren’t anymore. Even with the word “slut” there are more ways of escaping that label than there are of escaping the “creep” label. Besides, there are indirectly positive attributes of the word “slut,” even women who use it as a term of empowerment, but not too many men embracing the “creep” label.
It’s also impossible to ignore or look beyond. If you hear that a man is a creep before you even meet him, then upon meeting him you will instantly see what everyone is talking about. Your brain will have already anticipated that he looks creepy, so he will look creepy. It’s a powerful confirmation bias.
Spot on! I was actually going to discuss this as well.
And of course there is the fact that women have shitty creepdar even though they think they know who the creeps are. Saying you have creepdar is saying is the equivalent of saying you have mind-reading abilities and future prediction powers. Its a known result that people can’t predict how much they will enjoy an activity even if they know exactly what it is. What this means is that people don’t even have a fairly basic understanding of themselves. So how the fuck can you predict the behaviour of another person you never met based on 5 seconds of behaviour. Its the height of arrogance and stupidity.
We have a name for this…its called stereotyping.
Creepy guys are creepy because of the way they behave. End of story.
“Creepy guys are creepy because of the way they behave”
Total bullshit since creepiness is not based on any objective behaviours and is completely subjective. You also don’t even bother defining creepy behaviours. Its more or less I know it when I see it.
I’m comfortable in my creepiness. I don’t dress like the IT specialist I am, I don’t wear expensive watches or boutique cologne, I wear clothes to be comfortable and I drive an inexpensive car that gets me from point A to point B reliably. I am bathed and clean, in body if not in spirit. I also don’t care what women on the public transport think about me, they are strangers after all. They don’t know what I think, what I know or what I believe. They have no idea of what I am capable of.
I’d say if a strange woman spoke to me on public transport I’d wonder what she was up to, because it would not likely be on the level. Unless she is my grandmother’s age.
Sorry that was meant to be a reply to wellokaythen.
No dick swinging in London at all or is it just time of day and location that matters?
Girls really love cocky guys.
As an introvert, I cringe at the whole idea of approaching a stranger on a train or being approached by someone on a train. If I’m reading something, it’s precisely because I don’t want to talk to people, and I generally assume that a woman reading something does not want to be interrupted. Maybe I’m too uptight about that, but it seems like a good assumption. I would also assume that if she does not reply warmly then I should take that as a signal that she does not want a conversation.
I would feel intrusive if I didn’t even say “excuse me” when getting her attention.
(Of course, to be fair, if I were single and a very attractive woman tried to strike up a conversation with me while I’m reading on a train, I’d bookmark my place and chat away. In the back of my mind I’d assume she was crazy or trying to sell me something or trying to convert me to her cult or a combination thereof, but hey, hope springs eternal.)
I hope you like the taste of pepper spray, because you’ll need to be prepared for it if you continue with this approach.
Two cautionary words from one of the old timers who remembers the 1980′s:
Bernard Goetz
Wow, you are calling someone’s magazine’s “boring” as an icebreaker and acting like a dick… and wonder why that doesn’t work?!?!?
“…borderline Aspergers is what I need here.”
Eh, Aspergers is less Hugh Grant-style bumbling charming awkwardness and more… um…. Doc Martin, I guess. Also, a good deal less calculating-manipulation-of-unsuspecting-women-on-public-transit-systems-y…
@Emmmet Doyle Ok, I’m not a fan of the article to tell the truth, it does seem a little aspi. However, I take general offense at the idea that men trying to “pick up” women (on transit systems or whereever) is “calculating-manipulation-of-unsuspecting-women-on-public-transit-systems” Your comment implies that both, men are evil sex obsessed maniacs out praying on poor stupid women. That is insulting to both men and women. Women have minds, and intelligence, and men are not all evil sex obsessed maniacs. I’m tired of people calling men’s sexuality, or any attempt to express that sexuality, however misguided, manipulation. Not to sound repetitive but women aren’t poor little dummies who are victims who never ever want sex, whom are falling pray to men’s evil manipulative tactics. And men should not be denigrated for wanting to express their sexuality!
Expressing your sexuality is one thing- approaching somebody under false pretenses and putting on an act is another. Sexuality is fine, but PUAs *are* manipulative.
As for being ‘a little aspi [sic]‘- no, not really. ‘Aspie’ isn’t putting on a fake awkward act to initiate contact according to some plan you’ve cooked up to get in bed with a lady. “Aspie” is when you have real awkwardness- the kind that usually prevents you from forming romantic relationships. Aspie is when you try flirting and end up giving a ten-minute lecture on the history of the Holy Roman Empire. Our condition isn’t an act for PUAs to put on so they can ‘score’.
@Emmett Doyle, so honestly the whole “a little aspi” thing is totally irrelevant, I honestly don’t care! What I do care about it this, how *are* PUAs manipulative? I’m not even disagreeing that I think PUA is rather pointless and in general a bad idea, I just take issue with your deceleration that it is manipulative. How is it manipulative? The scenario that the author discusses is going up to a women and making a comment about what she is reading, (I think his choice of first words “god that looks boring” are unbelievably dumb, but that’s what he said) are you suggesting that instead of asking a women about what she’s reading, or commenting on it as the author does, a man interested in a women on a subway should just say “hi your cute, want to have sex?” I think the latter would be taken far more harshly by most women than what the author said.
So I repeat, what is manipulative about it? Give me an example of a scenerio you think is manipulative, and why it falls into the category of being manipulative?
What’s *not* manipulative about it? The guy’s sole intent in approaching this woman is to ‘pick her up’. The first thing he does is to pretend to accidentally bump her- then he apologizes, as if he didn’t completely intend it. Then he pretends to be awkward when he’s in fact calculating and confident, and launches into a conversation about the train, which he doesn’t care about, because he’s here to get this girl’s phone number. Now, I’m not going to hypothesize some way a person should go about getting a phone number- I haven’t got a damned clue, because, you know, I actually am an Aspie (unlike this guy)- but intentionally misrepresenting yourself seems to me to be, you know, manipulative. He’s intentionally misrepresenting himself and his intentions so that he can meet a goal that he has- that’s basically the definition of manipulation. If this is how neurotypicals fulfill their emotional and sexual desires, count me out- it’s creepy as hell.
Attractive girls stare at me every day on the train. I’d love to approach them, but I get the strong impression that young women in our society today (or at least in the urban area I live in) are so self-conscious and fearful that they would regard my approach with extreme suspicion or even insult me outright. Sure, she seems interested when she’s eye-f***ing you, but the moment you walk up to her she’ll likely clam up, turn crimson, and insinuate that you are some sort of sexual predator for daring to talk to her.
I brought this up to my sister and she pretty much confirmed it saying that women are uncomfortable on the subway because they are so close to strangers and they feel vulnerable. She said that I should never approach a girl on the subway. Fair enough, but it is a bit disappointing when I see some cute girl checking me out and know that she’s just peeking out of her ivory tower, distant and unapproachable. I’d almost rather they didn’t look at all.
@Jimmmy, you bring up a really good point, one that I would like to elaborate on. It is unfortunate but true, that although a young man walking down a street, or on a train, or pretty much anywhere, has a much higher risk of getting assaulted than any women has of getting either assaulted or raped, most women believe that they are in constant danger. We could debate why this is all day, but the fact is that although women have relatively little to fear in public spaces, eg: few rapes occur on trains, or even in dark alleys, and women have a much lower likely hood of getting assaulted in other ways than men do. Most women and for that matter most men assume that men are all invulnerable to assault and that women are sitting ducks just waiting to be assaulted in some way. This is bad not just for women but for men, it makes all women scared of men unnecessarily and ignores the true danger that men do face.
Yea, whether women’s constant fear of assault is justified or not, it has to be respected. I’ll chat a woman up if the opportunity arises but approaching a beautiful woman out of the blue isn’t really allowed in this day and age. Even if she’s staring at you.
When I check a girl out, I’m usually interested in her. I want to talk to her and hear her voice and see if I can make her laugh and find out what she’s like and who she is. And I don’t think that’s a bad thing.
But women tell me that when other women check me out they probably don’t want to get to know me, they just like looking. And I guess I just find that disappointing. I mean, if you don’t want to talk to me, then stop looking at me.
Never take dating advice from feminists, and never listen to criticism of dating advice from feminists. They have no idea how most women will react to anything, and they can never keep themselves from trying to mold you into their ideal of what a man should be (which is essentially a scared, cringing little boy looking for his mommy). They don’t want you hitting on women anywhere; not in buildings (OMG, you’re threatening rape without even knowing it!), not in clubs (OMG, just because she’s at a club doesn’t mean she wants to get hit on!), and not anywhere else. They, like most women, never really want to put themselves out there, but they have no problem sniping at you while they sit on their asses and wait for Mr. Perfect to come to them (and he won’t, because real people are real people, not fantasy people).
Just keep at it. Don’t worry about being confident – the only people who aren’t insecure are sociopaths. Worry about faking it. Use a deep voice (but keep it realistic) and good posture (makes you look taller). Don’t fidget or stammer, don’t chew your nails and don’t dominate the conversation. Most people are just looking for an excuse to talk about themselves, so give her one and give her plenty of room to do it. Keep a realistic appraisal of your own quality and don’t set your sights more than 1 or 1.5 points higher than you are. Above all else, remember that discomfort is only temporary. You will probably be hitting on girls outside of your social circle (if anything was going to happen with the ones inside of it, it would have by now, so don’t even bother with them), chances are you’ll never have to speak to the ones that reject you again. So be forthcoming about your intentions (she’s going to know anyway, and she’ll appreciate your directness), and hope for the best. If it doesn’t pan out, move on. Don’t make ‘friends’. Just. Move. On. If you aren’t good enough to date, then you shouldn’t be good enough for friendship. She’ll only just use you.
That is most of what I’ve learned about dating, minus the real scummy stuff.
Hear hear.