Showtime thinks men need to stop lamenting, and start embracing The Friend Zone.
Originally appeared at The Single Fathers Blog
The FRIEND ZONE… you know what it is, fellas. You meet a woman and you start talking to her on the phone regularly. You hang out with her a few times. She might even give you the honor of letting you give her a kiss on the lips. But, that’s about as far as it goes. You try your hardest to take it to the next level, but nothing pops off. So what do you do? Or ladies, you meet a guy and you kinda like him, but he just wants things to go a little bit further than you want them to. What do you do?
From a man’s pont of view, the friend zone is usually perceived as the absolute worst place you want to be….OR IS IT? My position on the friend zone is a little different than most men. I think the friend zone allows you to get to know the woman better than you would if you were to just hop into a situation where you are dealing with her on an intimate level. Think about it, when you’re in a relationship the person that you are with should be like your best friend. There shouldn’t be anything that you can’t tell that person and nothing they should be able to share everything with you . So the best way to start a relationship that is truly worth anything is to start off as friends.
When a woman trusts you with her friendship you can get the information from her that should help you decide if she is even worth your time. A lot of times women tell you things without actually telling you. All you have to do is engage in conversation and listen. Not only that, even if you never get out of the friend zone with that particular woman, she is more then likely to give you insight and information that you can use in the future with other women.
A lot of men think that they have to kick some type of game in order to make sure that they stay out of the friend zone. But the fact of the matter is, the key to staying out of the friend zone is honesty. All you have to do is be honest with the woman. She will respect that a lot more then if you are pretending to be her friend just to get a taste of her cookies. If you are only trying to get the drawls, then just let her know and see if she is down with if. If she is with it, then you have just landed into a “friends with benefits” situation. The good thing about that is that if you really like her then the friends with benefits has the possibility of turning into a real deal relationship. Don’t be afraid of those types of situations either. Sometimes the friends with benefits can turn out to be the best ones for you. You’ve been friends for so long, and you just begin to know each other so well that it only makes sense that you take things to the next level and pursue a relationship with the person.
Now ladies, you have to know that the friend zone is an asset to you, BUT you have to use it wisely. You can’t just go puttin every dude you meet in the friend zone just because you are waiting on Idris Elba to pop into your life. You need to use the friend zone as a way to get a better understanding of men, and why we do what we do. Choose the men who you put into the friend zone very very wisely. If the man isn’t bringing some sort of value to your life, then you need to cut him of. At least be honest with him and let him know that this relationship is going no further then the occasional phone call, text messages while you’re bored at work, and a meal from Ruby Tuesdays on your off pay weeks.
If you have a dude that you know you only want to be friends with, you need to tell him so that there are no unrealistic expectations on his part. A dude will spend a lot of his time and money just because he thinks he has a shot at becoming more than friends. You don’t really want to do this to a guy who is a genuine good dude. Now if it’s somebody who you don’t really care about and you know he only wants sex, aye that’s all part of the game. You may want the same thing that he wants. Or then again you may not. Just don’t lead the guy on. Let him decide if he wants to be in that friend zone or not.
The friend zone definitely has its purpose, but I think the key to it is communication. If you feel like you’re in the zone and you don’t want to be, you have to let her know. It’s possible that she put you there subconsciously and didn’t know that you really had an interest. Ladies, if you want to put a man in the zone then you HAVE to let him know where he stands if he is making any type of moves on you. It’s only fair that when you see signs of the friend zone developing that you discuss it with the other party so that neither of you is wasting your time.
What do you say? Do you think that women and men feel the same way about the friend zone?
Photo of young man and young woman courtesy of Shutterstock
About Showtime: Mr. Motivation (Radio Personality and Blogger)
That actually explains the way I interact with women extremely well. I’m in the friend zone of several women, and i hear and understand them in ways their boyfriends (or girlfriends) never could. It’s refreshing knowing that that trust is there, and it’s healthy for both parties. I even had one of their boyfriends thank me for talking her through a rough time and helping her out when he couldn’t.
Should I even bother pointing it out…………………heteronormative. Huzzah. /endsnark
In all seriousness: at what point does spamming “this is heteronormative” all over the place just become derailing?
I was annoyed and thus my post was in an annoyed tone…and admittedly not helpful to a conversation. However, I don’t actually spam that everywhere. I bring it up when I think it’s relevant…usually with more thoughtful analysis that accompanies it.
In this case I think it’s actually quite relevant and important, because the entire concept of the “friend zone” relies on very strict and normative ideas about what men and women are, and about how men and women interact with each other. It is a highly gendered label for a relationship in which not everyone involved is on the same page…and yet relationships like that exist across all genders and sexual orientations…and all kinds of relationships.
Yet the author is clearly describing an experience that is common to a large group of men. Why does it matter if he did not manage to encompass everyone in his recommendations? His writing has meaning for many of us, and that meaning should not be discouraged simply because the piece was not aimed at a wider audience.
It’s like when we have debates about the experience of women and then a (male) commenter comes along and says “But this happens to men too! You are wrong for not talking about men!”
The commenter is then usually informed that focusing on a women’s problem does not mean ignoring men’s problems, but merely that the women’s viewpoint is also worth discussion.
This is little different, the viewpoint may be heteronormative but that doesn’t mean it is unhelpful to discuss.
I agree Mike L. It IS derailing. Newsflash, the majority of people are heterosexual and thus most articles will cater to them. Homosexual people are more than welcome to write articles about their dating, etc. But seeing heteronormative on articles is simply a poor attempt to derail and shit all over the articles merits. Congrats on doing the “whataboutthegays” derail.
If the author is straight, how is he to know about how gay people experience the friendzone? He’s talking about instances he can relate to. He doesn’t talk about polygamy either, how monogamous of him.
@HeatherN:
My best girlfriend crushed on me in 7th grade (of course, I was totally clueless!)….anyway, I had to distance myself from her because she kept sending me notes saying: “Are you psychologically equipped??” ….to which I was not at the time [She wanted to come out to me and tell me that she was in love with me]….We grew apart and eventually she switched schools ….
It’s 3 decades later and we’re still friends (not as close as I would like, but I understand if she needs to hold her private life apart)….I think now I am ready to hear what she had wanted to say to me so many years ago!
If you remove the gendered adjectives and pronouns and replace them with gender neutral terms such as “they” and “their”, I think that Mr. Showtime explains a pretty basic but effective model of how to establish boundaries and differentiation between intimate partners, friends, and acquaintances. Regardless of a person’s biological sex or gender expression, boundaries need to be respected.
I think that “the friend zone” only succeeds at trivializing the importance of platonic relationships. It implies relationship with a person of your romantically preferred demographic is only valuable if it involves sexual interaction. I think it would be equally disrespectful for a man to treat his acquaintances in such a way as it would for a woman to do the same to her acquaintances. Sometimes it’s not just about the biological sex or gender of the person that is writing about life experiences. If, through his own experiences as an Afro-American man, he can express how he learned to establish and become respectful of other people’s boundaries, he can urge others to reflect upon their own questions about social boundaries. I think that, as long as we are willing to listen to the stories of other people, we may find that we have many similar experiences. We all reside within the system of hegemonic norms, so surely each and every one of us has an experience that is linked to the current state of interpersonal existence.
Can we please start seeking out the potentially constructive similarities with equal fervor to that with which we dwell upon differences? It is easy to point out shortcomings, but it requires building in a new direction to overcome our straight and narrow confines.
Here Here! I absolutely second that. Let us see the similarities of feelings experienced by women and men and stop imagining we are beings from different planets (as some popular pseudo psych books try to project).
We are humans and humans feel pain, fear, and desire.
We are not mind readers, neither male nor female.
We are all responsible for our own desires and how we go about finding fulfilment in life,
and we all have the potential to care about another person if we let those feelings grow.
I’m not sure that one person’s single dating advice piece really could be considered “heteronormative”. The truth is, “hetero” is “normal” to Showtime. He’s a straight man. When he writes about a particular issue about men, to men, it is by nature going to be heteronormative, and certainly there is nothing wrong with that. Just as if you wrote a piece about a particular thing that happens within the Lesbian dating world, it wouldn’t be quite right for Showtime to go in and say “Lesbian-centric!”
The main goal is not to make every single person’s viewpoint non-heteronormative, but to make collective spaces inclusive by including stories and voices from a variety of people that hopefully represents the population to some degree.
One example of where the reverse is true is in the piece I just reprinted of Jerry Mahoney’s which was about “making gaybies” and why they loved having a surrogate. In my perfect world, it would’ve talked more about het couples who face infertility as well… But Jerry Mahoney is a gay man in a gay marriage with kids, and he wrote about his own experience. I’m not going to go to him and ask him to include the perspective of straight couples.
Now, I realize that since the majority of dating stuff is from a het perspective, therefore gay men (or whomever is non-het) have a right to talk about themselves and themselves only… And thats true. But I also think Showtime should be able to talk about the world from Showtime’s perspective, as long as it doesn’t actually *harm* anyone. And he doesn’t say anything at all derogatory about non-het couples.
It’s TOTALLY heteronormative–like most all relationship advice found online. I’m there with you, Heather. And as someone who feels invaded by hegemony every minute of my life, sometimes it’s easier just to sigh and tell myself, “Ok, it’s def heteronormative, but the advice still CAN apply to me–it just takes a little translating on my end.”
I think it’s extrememely important to point out heteronormativity beceause it’s important to see how simple things like “Relationship Advice” is usually hetero, doesn’t acknowledge the LGBT community, and illustrates our marginalization. On the flipside, I constantly have to ask myself, as Mike L. put it: “at what point does spamming “this is heteronormative” all over the place just become derailing?”–though I’d scratch the “spamming”. It’s good for people to have a grasp on heteronormativity, and that in and of itself is extremeley important. But heteros have a space too, and we can’t take that away just because it’s heteronormative (not saying anyone here was doing that either).
The funny thing about this piece is that I opened it thinking it was about MTV’s new show “The Friend Zone,” wherein one friend prepares for a fake date with another friend’s advice, then one friend confesses to the other: I like you and this date is really for you. I’ve seen a couple of gay couples on it and I was happy to see that this wasn’t a “gay show”. It was a relationship show inclusive of multiple sexualities. Nice–this is how things should be.
The most-widely accepted definition of friend zone is the platonic relation between members of opposite sex where one partner seeks romance while other does not. Technically, it is a limbo state and there is nothing pleasurable about it. If men and women want to be friends then its okay to be friends, but when either of seeks romance and other just wants to be friends, it is better to move out of the relation. There is difference between being friends and being friend-zoned.
“There is difference between being friends and being friend-zoned.”
An important distinction. What if you want more, but the person you’re enamored with would be cool to have as a friend? You would still be “friend zoned”, but it would be the same as simply being friends in another sense. I can’t see sexual urges simply over riding every other consideration.
Friend is something you want to be and being friend zoned is something that is done to you. Its like desiring a full course dinner and getting only a hamburger with french fries.
Happening to not return romantic feelings is “doing something to” another person?
Not returning romantic feelings is ok but putting in reserve with the phrase “let’s just be friends” is really something done.
Rapses, if u want a full course dinner and are served a burger and chips i’d say go to another restaurant. ie. that is what is being said – nothing has been ‘done’ to anyone here. one person expresses what they want, the other said i’d rather such and such, so the first person can choose take it or leave it. nothing being done to another. all people have a choice.
I don’t really think there is a problem with the friend zone. The problem is with trying to categorize people or oneself. I think back to grade school. I was friends with girls. I knew and liked almost all my classmates. I got invited to parties by girls with no expectations and we’d all hang out. Sometimes something would form and you’d hook up with a girl. Sometimes she’d tell you no and it wouldn’t go any further. You still stayed friends.
Why is it that when you reach a certain age you can’t just be friends? You go out with a female friend to a bar and know you’ll get a dance regardless of the number of times you get turned down by other women. You can talk to them just like your male friends. It gives you another perspective. Currently, I have this crush on a beautiful woman in her mid 20s. I’m pretty sure she knows it. He leans on me a lot. I enjoy her company. I enjoy looking at her. I don’t know that I would let her take it to the next level if by some chance she tried. I would suspect something was wrong and you don’t take advantage of your friends.
Guys aren’t the only people stuck in the friend zone. There’s another 27/28 year old woman who is not conventionally attractive, but has signaled interest in me on many occasions. Once she was resigning herself to a life without experiencing a relationship with a man. She’s a really cool person and if I thought it would help, I would have slept with her or whatever she needed, but I think it would have just confused the situation more. She’s professional and smart. She makes more money than I and owns her house. She has a ready laugh. She has a lot to offer a man and shouldn’t undervalue herself. She needs to find a guy her own age.
Is this piece really suggesting that a woman starting a friendship with a man should say, ‘You know, I’m never going to date you, so maybe we shouldn’t be friends….’? When I was younger I had lots of male friends, and I had no idea when they wanted more than friendship. I assumed that men didn’t want a relationship or sex with me unless they came out and said so. Years later one of them told me he and others were badly hurt by my callousness. I didn’t get it – I thought men wanted everything up front and hated mind-reading…. sigh
Why would it be a woman’s responsibility to stop the man ‘wasting time’ in a friendship with someone he’d rather be in bed with but is too scared to ask? What signs is she supposed to look for? And why should she? The same goes when it’s the other way around. I totally friend-zoned in school with someone I was in love with but was too scared to tell: but I knew the situation was completely down to my own cowardice. Anyone who has entered ‘the friend zone’ needs to either come clean, make the most of the friendship on its own merits, or retreat.
It’s everybody’s responsibility to set the rules. It’s possible that you were acting in a manner which they thought they had a chance, were you overly touchy or suggestive that you liked them? There is probably signals being crossed, these guys were probably sensing you were into them but then were hurt when you just saw them as a friend. It’s quite confusing.
When I was younger (i.e. high school, college), I always seemed to have a number of male friends in my life who developed crushes on me that I didn’t reciprocate. I was warm and friendly to them, the same way I’m warm and friendly to female friends. I’d give them hugs occassionally just like a hug my female friends, i’d show excitement and interest in them just like I show excitement and interest in all my friends. Unfortunately, I learned that guys OFTEN take this the wrong way.
It sounds like you are suggesting that women should not be terribly friendly to men who they aren’t actually attracted to. To be honest, I eventually learned to keep my distance somewhat from men if I can’t see any romantic possibilities, even if I like them “as a friend,”, because I don’t want to send any mixed singles. However, that is kind of sad because I like having male friends. They provide a perspective and an energy that’s different than I get from female friends. But being friends with someone who feels an attraction that I don’t reciprocate is very awkward.
“I was warm and friendly to them, the same way I’m warm and friendly to female friends. I’d give them hugs occassionally just like a hug my female friends, i’d show excitement and interest in them just like I show excitement and interest in all my friends. Unfortunately, I learned that guys OFTEN take this the wrong way.”
We do, but that’s largely because we can’t figure women out. I had a female friend, who did that. We talked a lot, we went out as “friends”. I gave her rides home at night. Many of my male friends were even telling me that she really liked me. She invited me to lunch (it wasn’t dutch this time. She was buying). We had our normal pleasant conversation and then she mentions her fiancée.
On the other hand, there was a young lady who was very nice to me also. I thought she was just being nice and then I heard that she was complaining to a mutual female friend that she was throwing herself at me and I wasn’t responding at all. She was a nice person and not unattractive, but after I heard that I just found it hard to even be friends with her, mostly because I didn’t know how to deal with the situation. Cluelessness sometimes works both ways.
“I was warm and friendly to them, the same way I’m warm and friendly to female friends. I’d give them hugs occassionally just like a hug my female friends, i’d show excitement and interest in them just like I show excitement and interest in all my friends. Unfortunately, I learned that guys OFTEN take this the wrong way.”
So basically you didn’t tell them where they stood as friends vs lovers? Do you realize that many male friends do not hug n show affection the way women do so it can be seen as confusing to men who feel these women are doing something more than what “friends” do in what they expect a friend to do?
“It sounds like you are suggesting that women should not be terribly friendly to men who they aren’t actually attracted to. To be honest, I eventually learned to keep my distance somewhat from men if I can’t see any romantic possibilities, even if I like them “as a friend,”, because I don’t want to send any mixed singles.”
I’m saying to tell them in plain english if you sense they want more. As much as it hurts to hear, it’s better to hear it instead of distancing yourself because they will be left confused as to why you are distancing yourself. What message did you send by distancing yourself after giving them hugs n affection? Do you realize that they may think women are crazy because they act one way, then change because they didn’t realize they themselves were doing something wrong? People need to say what is wrong, not just ditch n hope they get the message because it’s vague as hell. It’s actually quite rude in my books to be a huggy, affectionate friend and then cut off that affection n distance yourself with no reason said to them, I would have probably thought you were a fake, fickle friend from that and my trust in you would have dropped to zero because your actions show that based on the information I was given.
So what I am suggesting is to be upfront n honest about where you stand with relationships, because quite frankly you are toying with peoples feelings when you are all affectionate and then cut off that affection, distance yourself and don’t even say why. It’s that kind of behaviour I know personally has added to my friends bitterness n resentment towards women, it’s the stuff that reinforces the bad stereotype of women being crazy or women being flightly, fickle and basically not a good friend for men. And if that is a common way for women to act then no, it’s not something a good friend would do.
You felt it fine to withdraw, but you didn’t say why? Now I am guessing this so I could be wrong but the way you handled the situation in my view is terrible and it’s a very mixed signal. It’d be much better to say they are just friends, and then IF they keep making you uncomfy, tell them! Clear the air up instead of having both you and him to guess what you’re thinking, what you want, etc. Your desire to avoid sending mixed signals and actions to do so most likely caused even more mixed signals because of a failure to communicate your desires effectively. People really need to stop relying on body language, guesswork and mindreading to communicate especially between the genders whom are raised to communicate in different ways usually. SO MANY problems could be avoided by clear, direct communication.
actually what she said was not that she withdrew from men with whom she had been affectionate but “To be honest, I eventually learned to keep my distance somewhat from men if I can’t see any romantic possibilities, even if I like them “as a friend,”, because I don’t want to send any mixed singles.”
that she learned to keep her distance from men with whom she did not see romantic possibilities.
that doesn’t mean she was dating a guy and getting close and then just suddenly withdrew.
i think it would help to some extent if guys were quite so optimistic about women being ‘into’ them that way
(this does not apply to all males at all, but it is a pattern)
on the other hand all of your comments go both ways
anyone can get to a point with someone and then back off.
men and women do that at times when they are dating or in a relationship or when they are enjoying the friendship of someone and get a feeling maybe that person is getting the wrong end of the stick. so they cool off for a while and from then on are not as affectionate or whatever
guys do that often
come on!
they do it at the slightest hint a female is attracted to them whom they are not attracted to
the way you are talking it sounds more like someone in love with someone else who just ditched them
i dont think thats what she was saying at all
if two people are that close then you would expect a conversation to take place that allows the person in love to walk away with dignity intact and knowing there is not hope in that direciton
and yes
it is a difficult area to navigate
some people come on strong – women and men,
some people are very subtle, polite or shy – women and men
all of us navigate this area of life all the time, whether we are single or in a relationship
all of us are capable of deliberately or inadvertently leading another person to the wrong conclusion
all of us are capable of letting ourselves get carried away by the affection and attention of a person we are attracted to and mistake it for more – men and women
all of us get infatuated at times and fail to read the obvious signals
yes women mistake men’s attentions too
the best thing to do is learn to read signals as well as possible
to observe the behaviour of the person you like and see how they behave towards others
and if you really are attracted to someone a whole lot just drop a suggestion or hint and check their response
and observe observe observe that persons behaviour towards you and other people
if the woman you quote above was affectionate towards all her friends that would soon be evident to a person who was getting to know her
all of us do better if we don’t delude ourselves
if we want to know is it a date or is it just friends we are free to ask – so is it a date? that is not impolite or pushy or rude
then the other person has an opening to respond
maybe they’l say ‘why, would you like it to be a date/’
and wow off it goes in a whole new exciting direction…
or maybe they’l shrug the suggestion off quickly, change subjects, or invite some other friends along
do we take a hint?
or ignore it and struggle on infatuated as ever?
we don’t have to be that embarrassing person who has to be told ,
sorry but ahem, im just not into you like that…
and please don’t come in with the women are too hard to figure
men are renowned for simply not calling again
anyone can be a coward and opt out when it gets too tricky
that is not the domain of either women or men
Ahh I see your point. Could be the men who weren’t hugged. I was talking about the guy-friends who were hugged, if she had stopped n started to withdraw from them without knowing then it could lead them to be even more mixed in their signals. If my friend hugged me, talked to me a lot and then withdrew I would be concerned.
“if the woman you quote above was affectionate towards all her friends that would soon be evident to a person who was getting to know her”
Sure. I think it depends on how she acts when alone with the guy, chances are he won’t see her often do that with other guys alone so there could be signals there. But then again, it’s high-school. Neither the guys or girls would have a great understanding of socializing, the effects of their actions as I’m sure they’re still learning. You bring up a good point though for the guys to see if they are being treated special, or if they are being treated the same as other guys, that’s a key difference between a friend and someone who likes them.
“and please don’t come in with the women are too hard to figure
men are renowned for simply not calling again
anyone can be a coward and opt out when it gets too tricky
that is not the domain of either women or men”
I’m not saying men don’t do it, but to a heterosexual male they will be most likely watching the actions of the women in this case. THe same arguments I made can be swapped around in the genders, quite commonly I hear of stupid stuff males do to female friends who want more. In this particular case I was talking about how she was treating the guys, but it depends if she withdrew from the existing male friends, or just meant over time it was for the new guys.
To one gender, the other can often be confusing if they act in different ways on average. I hear some women say men are confusing, and some men say women are confusing, it’s not really a rational thought but their experience has left them feeling that way. I don’t agree with it anymore as I have learned better but I did go through a time where I thought women were damn crazy because the way they handled a situation was often quite different to how I, or guys I know would handle it. But hey, I was young n dumb.
yeh, i definitely took a different reading of it to you. i thought she was saying she generally treated her male friends with the same affection and enthusiasm as her female friends but then learned to keep her distance from males because they got the wrong idea.
i didn’t notice her mention anything about being alone with said male friends, and i wasn’t taking her to mean anything intimate at all by her saying she hugged them the same as she would a female friend. i took her to mean a hug goodbye, or a hug when she runs into you just after you’d been to see someone in hospital who was seriously hurt or ill and not in a good way. etc. that kind of thing.
it wasn’t just the hugging that caused her to change, it was her interest in what they were saying and so on. she felt that by being open-hearted and warm just as she was with females, she somehow had caused guys to get the wrong idea.
it’s sad that happened to her. really
“i didn’t notice her mention anything about being alone with said male friends, and i wasn’t taking her to mean anything intimate at all by her saying she hugged them the same as she would a female friend. i took her to mean a hug goodbye, or a hug when she runs into you just after you’d been to see someone in hospital who was seriously hurt or ill and not in a good way. etc. that kind of thing.”
Part of that is just the sheer lack of physical contact many boys and men grow up with. In my experience men rarely hugged or touched other men, women did farr more and if a guy was around men more he could feel there is more to the hug than is apparent if it’s also with other touching. I’ve had women touch my leg, arm, hug me etc without me initiating and it took a while to realize it was just them being friendly. If a guy had done the same….it would have been quite awkward!
? eh?
sheer lack of physical contact?
not following you there
i see men hug
i see dads hug their sons
i see grandparents hug their grandsons
and i see sons grow up with mothers, sisters, aunties, nanas, and friends of the family who all give them affection
i would like to see a real response from a large survey of males to see them say they grew up with a ‘sheer lack of physical contact’
i find that an unlikely account for why they took her the wrong way
and expect it had a lot more to do with wishful thinking for one thing
and cultural conditioning for another
the viewing of women their age, women in their prime of life, as ‘other’, as objects of desire, rather than as people,
a person like them who is quite possibly interested in them as a person, interested in their well-being, and in simply knowing them and sharing something non-sexual
I had very little physical contact in my teens n adulthood, as did many of my friends. It might just be this area though. I’d say it’s part of the reason why, not the full reason. It confused me at first when I had people touch me.
I was talking about different times in my life, I.e. high school/early 20′s vs. the (hopefully) greater wisdom of middle age. I’m not talking about developing a friendship then suddenly withdrawing, although as I said, it can be awkward to remain close friends with someone who is pining for me romantically. I had a male roommate when I was in my mid-20′s who became a friend then admitted he had a crush on me. We stayed friends but I ended up moving out because it felt awkward. His girlfriend at the time was also living with us which made things REALLY awkward. She figured out he had a “thing” for me and she got really hostile toward me and that was more drama than I could handle in one household.
It can also work the other way. I had a good male friend years ago who I really fell in love with, and I was heartbroken that he didn’t feel the same way for me.
Ah ok, disregard pretty much most of what I said then. I understand some of that akwardness when someone likes you more than friends, it sucks having to break their heart because you can’t reciprocate the feelings. Oh well, I guess that’s love n life!
Thank you. Someone to validate my theory on why I don’t have any friends who are women. They are keeping their distance because they don’t want to send mixed messages. Sounds like exactly the reason. Well I still have half of the human race I can befriend. I can live with that.
or pursuitace you can let women you want to be friends with see and understand that you are ok with that and appreciate it.
Because it’s everyone’s responsibility not to hurt other people.
When you were young, that’s one thing. But you’re not a kid anymore. If you know someone wants something more, then you let them know that they aren’t going to get it. Learning to deal with things like that is part of what growing up is all about.
or Soullite isn’t it also about growing up to be honest about what you want? Wouldn’t you say the older we get the more we take responsibility for ourselves and the less we expect others to read our minds, or to look out for our needs before their own?
Who pays your bills, puts food on your table, and provides you with what you desire? Someone else, or you?
The worst part of friendzone is the leading on that goes on. The worst parts are when I see guy friends spending a lot of time with the girl and she hasn’t set down boundaries, is acting in ways that appear she desires a relationship and then once he’s invested quite a bit of emotion into the budding relationship he’s told she just sees him as a friend. To rub salt in the wound she may tell him he’s a “great guy”, “really nice n sweet” after weeks of saying she wants a nice n sweet guy. That guy will (rightfully) be hurt as you’re told she desires pretty much a guy like you, but not YOU. The friendzone is so negative because it’s not just being friends, it’s wanting more, being fucked around and then being hurt. It’s the leading on n callous treatment of feelings, not setting boundaries, telling the person that they are the kind of person they like but then not wanting them. It causes mega MEGA resentment, a view of the friendzoner being hypocritical. And remember that quite a lot of women (and men) will gladly use a person, will string them on with hope to get attention, favours, etc. The power of knowing someone will do something for you because they dig you can probably goto their head.
Don’t lead people on, make your intentions known early.
Yeah…good point about setting boundaries…almost like it’s incumbent upon everyone in a relationship (friendship, whatever) to be upfront and honest about their feelings. Like…regardless of which gender we’re talking about. Yeah the person who isn’t interested in a romance should say so, but the person who is interested in a romance needs to say something too. No one is capable of mind-reading.
Yup. Communication is key. Pity it’s so damn scary to communicate, but I guess what we all need is training to let someone down nicely which I’ve failed at this miserably and ending up hurting someone which I feel like a real asshole for, and also handle rejection without taking it personally which is something I use to battle this until I realized attraction isn’t universal. It wasn’t until I had to try tell someone I wasn’t into them knowing they really digged me that I realized you can be attractive to some, but not all, and that no one is really unattractive or hot but to some people they are unattractive , to others they’re hot.
I do think it’s important to bear in mind though that a lot of guys do seem to have major issues picking up on when they’ve been “friend-zoned”. I’ve got a lot of female friends who think that they’ve made it perfectly clear to some of their male friends that it’s not going anywhere, but the male friend is still pursuing them nonetheless. Granted that then puts me in the awkward position of knowing that the woman isn’t interested in them (or me for that matter :p), but not being able to tell the male friend when he’s busy saying how “wonderful”, “lovely”, “pretty” and whatever else they think she is.
When it comes to the friend-zone, pretty sure I’m the ruler of the place, can get moderately irritating at times, but in general I do “put” myself there and it is a position where it’s a lot easier to learn more about the person that you’re interested even if it does preclude romantic relationships (at least for me anyway).
Personally I think that much of that is because women seem to be trained to communicate more with body language and more subtle hints, whereas men tend to be very direct. What happens is this misunderstanding of intentions, so whilst she feels she’s clearly signalling him she’s really signalling him in a way that mostly females understand but men…not so much. Being direct I think is better. I’ve heard from some guys where basically they were interacting in a way that he saw as romantic/close/intimate but she was just treating him as a friend, and the anger that comes from those mixed signals can really make a few of them bitter.
From what I’ve seen in my experience and other peoples, I’ve found that really both men n women are at fault at times. One girl I’ve known of was wondering why guys kept wanting her when she felt like she was just being a friend to them, yet she was messaging about her underwear and other intimate details late at night which is a pretty good indication of possibly more than friends but she didn’t realize that. Quite frankly it appears she likes the attention but I don’t know her perfectly so there could be other reasons why she’d do that, but what I do know is the guy was furious at being treated hot n cold. This plus countless other experiences he’s had with women where they quite literally are treating him like shit, getting him eager n smashing those hopes has left him bitter. There’s a reason why many times I hear a girl was a tease n the guy is bitter because he’s felt like he was fucked about. Don’t play with peoples feelings…
It’s the mixed signals that are doing so much damage, if you’re describing what colour your underwear is then take a wild guess as to what he will be thinking? Unless you’re ready for more with the guy then you either need to not tease him, or state clearly yu aren’t interested and quite frankly have a decent reason to be talking about yourself so intimately.
I can understand this girl, Archy. I’m very comfortable and open talking about the body and sex. I grew up being very sheltered when it came to those things. When I got past that, I went in the opposite direction, and I can see how it might be taken wrong. A guy might say something vaguely sexual and might expect me to be creeped out, but I’m not. He might see this as sexual interest. I also blurt things out like, “man, my boobs hurt today” or something. On the a more positive side of this, I have a lot of guy friends who got way past the attraction part for me (and date other women) and will tell me sexual stories and have no trouble complaining that their balls are sweaty or something like that around me (they only draw the line for me if they say something that would embarrass a girl I know).
I can be quite open depending on who it is. But I rely mostly on spoken word for sexual interest, if someone is interested then they need to tell me, I dislike the guessing game.
Archy, maybe it takes a little while to know what you think or feel about someone?
Sure does.
so everyone agrees friendships are worthwhile, communication is important, but rejecting someone is not fun or easy to do. so lets not expect others to reject us. i know i don’t like it. and think of it – wouldn’t you look like a tool for saying ‘by the way i’m not into you that way, just thought i’d let you know in case’? huh? who does that? wouldn’t it be rude if they havn’t even suggested they are into you, fancy you whatever? it would seem arrogant to put yourself before them that way. that would be a sure way to trample a good friendship and make it awkward. nope, it’s not up to anyone to reject another person unless you’ve been dating and decide you don’t want to keep going. but if you are friends, i’d say a much better perspective is this: the only time you don’t want to be friends with someone is because you don’t like them, don’t enjoy their company, or stuff has gone down that makes it too difficult. so i’d say, if you fancy someone, want to sleep with them, but don’t value their company and yet you keep hanging out with them, well really, you are a friendship faker. you need to come clean and see if they are interested in sleeping with you. if not , you are free to move on. for the other people who are actually enjoying time spent with someone they fancy, but don’t know if the feelings are reciprocated, well if you think the person is cool and good company why would you want to spoil it? you never know something may emerge in time, some moment may come along when it seems appropriate to get romantic, or intimate, or even hot and steamy. or maybe it turns out their best friend fancies you and you get together. so see the friendship wasn’t a waste. you still get to be friends and s/he turned out to be the link in a grand triangle. yey! wot fun! open your mind to the possibilities because you never know who is going to change your life forever!
Lmao. I fail to take this seriously. The key is not ‘honesty’ – this is never about dishonesty. That is straight up BS. And let’s be real straight here – even if it isn’t, the guy isn’t only one dealing with dishonesty. Almost every woman knows when a man wants something more. If she doesn’t make it clear that he isn’t going to get it, then she’s a bad person. That’s how human dating dynamics work – the man tries, the woman either accepts or declines. The friend-zone can’t happen when only one person fails to live up to their responsibilities under that dynamic, it can only happen when both people do. Rejection is nasty part of a woman’s responsibility under that system. But women are adults, they need to buck up and shoulder that responsibility instead of whining that it makes them feel uncomfortable.
But back to the central point – this isn’t about dishonesty. This is about fear. Those men aren’t laying a trap – even if they tell themselves that they are (as the OP is clearly doing, they are just full of it. They’re afraid. Hitting on women is hard; nerve wracking, nausea-inducing. Women don’t get that. Even if they think they do, they totally do not. It’s easier to tell themselves that those men are being dishonest than it is to admit that they’ve allowed a truly toxic dynamic to fester a bit too long. So they go with the comfortable, self-serving lie. That’s all that is.
“Almost every woman knows when a man wants something more. If she doesn’t make it clear that he isn’t going to get it, then she’s a bad person”…
well now that is just narrow minded, sexist rhetoric that serves no-one. it is the ‘old’ idea of women that they are responsible for men’s sexual desire.
“can’t happen when only ONE person fails to live up to their responsibility” exactly!!. Men need to be hurtled into the 21st century and take responsibility for their own desire. If you desire someone and they havn’t expressed a desire for you, well that is the dynamic of desire, it often causes pain. Women feel that too!! Stop stereotyping. When will men see that women chasing men are not just chasing them for some extrinsic benefit, but they chase them because they find them desirable.
The whole picture painted that women “know” when men who fail to express their desire for them want them, well that pushes out of the picture men who actually do value the company of women and spend time with them as friends. That means the assumption is when a man is being kind to you he only wants one thing. Thats what my granny taught me. Now I have to children, a boy nearly 20 and a daughter nearly 18, and guess what, they both desire people and they both fear expressing that desire because no-one likes rejection.
Lets see the flipside of friend zoning and that is women love the friendship of men. So here we are talking about another kind of desire. The woman desires his friendship, and what does he desire? If he only desires her sex then why should she be looking out for that in him. Is he looking out for her feelings? Is he making sure he doesn’t hurt her by telling her ‘look I don’t want to be friends with you I just want to get into your pants, all this sitting around and chatting, and going out to do stuff with our mutual friends, I just do that stuff because I hope you will sleep with me, but actually I find you a bore”.
Here is a great fun and positive flipside. One well known man in Australia, John Polson, the founder of Tropfest is famous not only for the short film festival but for his friendships with women. Women LOVE him! Why? Because he appreciates their company, he values women, and he is fun, intelligent.. and so on. Women say he is great company because he isn’t needy, and he is respectful. Now he never says he doesn’t find his female friends attractive.
So you see, women are not bad people, women are as much in the throws of wishful thinking as men. Women hope and wish the man hanging around with them IS their friend, if the man is only hoping and wishing she will sleep with him then maybe he needs to take a fresh look at how women and men relate these days.
That’s how this society works. Cut the crap. It isn’t an ‘old’ idea – go to any god damned bar in this fucking country and watch how dating actually works before you start running your mouth about how my rhetoric is ‘sexist’?
In my experience, the kind of woman who ‘loves’ male friendships doesn’t value the male in question at all. She just likes keeping pets.
Thankfully this website is predominantly frequented by people who have not been jaded blind by the current hegemonic social system and are willing to discuss ways of working around it, rather than perpetuating maladaptive behaviors in order to it to justify their own bitterness.
Soullite if you find night clubs to be immoral places don’t frequent them, there are certainly lots of love affairs going on in the rest of the world. if it’s not the immorality that bothers you but being played then how bout you learn to be a player yourself, because this game you speak of is well known and understood by those who play it. Men have been experts and being players for centuries and are very keen to share that knowledge with other men. google it and you will see for yourself.
the friend zone is the worst thing for men because they aren’t trying to make friends with women. Women aren’t good for friends, they’re good for sex, and if they’re not getting it, then what’s the point.
Men could make things so much easier if they stopped denying that they only find women useful for one thing and that thing is for their own benefit, no one elses. just admit that you see women as sexual appliances. trying to convince women that you think otherwise is just a waste of time.
@Honesty, I disagree, I dont know where you pull this out. I have lot of female friends, and theya re all nice and kind. And I admit, sometimes I have fantasized to bed them, and other time they have. I even had one of my female friend openly ask me to sleep with her during a party. But ‘The Blurpo’ and drunk women dont go hand in hand. I dislike drunk women (I dislike drunk people in general, but now we are talking about women) if a woman wants to be with me, she has to be sober, not drunk. And lot of my male friend also think in the same way.
Good on you for stating a balanced look at how men and women relate and for breaking down the stereotype that women don’t have desire. …and how nice to know there are men who are happy to express how much they enjoy their female friendships and would not want to ruin that.
“for breaking down the stereotype that women don’t have desire”
Honestly I dont know were this stereotype comes from, but honestly in my entire life, I never enconutered a woman without sexual desire or claims (beside my mother, and granmother….but I know they have).
Why aren’t they good for friendship? I have female friends I absolutely cherish the friendship with. Some I would like more with, but others I am happy being friends only. They can be just as honest, trustworthy, loving, caring, etc as my male friends.
In my experience the friendzone thing tends to come up a lot when quiet/shy/socially awkward guys aren’t really able to communicate their interests. I’ve done it some extent. And a good friend of mine still believes (at 20 years old no less) that the best way to woo the woman of his dreams is to appear to her in the most asexual manner possible, follow her around like a lost puppy, and never let her know that he might want to get in her pants at some point. Maybe it’s problem with not knowing how to flirt, or being too scared and/or awkward to express your feelings. The point is that it sucks to get led on by someone who knows you’re interested, but there’s nothing anyone can do if you never let them know in the first place.
When men talk about women who led them on, then “friend-zoned” them, they often describe women who seem to have a common personality type: lively,affectionate, and seductive, but also needy, emotional, dramatic, attention-seeking, shallow, manipulative, and egocentric. You might want to Google “histrionic personality disorder.” I’m not saying all women who “friend zone” a guy have a personality disorder, obviously, but in general, the kind of “friend-zoning” women that men complain about often seem to be women with histrionic personality traits. So if this keeps happening to you, you might want to read up about it and learn to identify those qualities so you know what is going on.
Some of these traits on their own are positive, of course, like sociability, but in a histrionic person, the positive traits are combined with negative qualities that make successful relationships very difficult. For example, a histrionic person will be extremely affectionate only as a way of getting others to meet their needs. It has a selfish quality that may be hard to spot at first. People start out quickly loving the histrionic person but eventually they find themselves feeling frustrated and resentful because they are always dealing with the other person’s drama and problems. There is no reciprocation. That is one major tip off.
Good idea. I think that happened to me a few times, and mostly when I was younger and still in the “women can do no wrong” stage of my life. Being raised to believe women were more trustworthy, sweet, nice, caring, etc vs men gave me unrealistic expectations of what a woman was which probably left me a bit blind to seeing the type of woman you describe.
“People start out quickly loving the histrionic person but eventually they find themselves feeling frustrated and resentful because they are always dealing with the other person’s drama and problems. There is no reciprocation. That is one major tip off.”
Great advice, no reciprocation is what shit me off the most. I would be dealing with their problems, giving them advice or just a shoulder to cry on yet when I needed help they weren’t around. Left me feeling quite used and useless.
Indeed. The kind of women who friend-zone men a lot don’t really want friends at all. They want convenient male pets.
The type of person that Sarah is describing sounds extremely manipulative, unhealthy, and incredibly selfish. It is the exact kind of person who would string another person along with their social leash. They maintain a power dynamic by only doing the bare minimum to keep their social pets around for just a little while longer, while the pet begs for social table scraps. They feast upon the knowledge that they have something that someone else wants, and use that person’s desire as an agent of control. They gain power by filling the power vacuums, loneliness especially, in other people’s lives. That kind of behavior is unhealthy and inexcusable, regardless of the sexes of the people in a relationship.
I think it is also important for people to command respect from their peers. We all know that, if we allow other people to, they will walk all over us. It isn’t right, but that’s just the way it is. Why continue investing time in someone one knows is using relationship inequality as a means of control? Why hang onto a “friendship” with someone one knows is manipulative? Instead of being pissed off about being “friend-zoned” by a coercive, self-serving individual, why not look elsewhere for better people? I know it can be difficult to leave behind a person who has been built up to be something great, but one eventually has to face reality and accept that most people are not as special and awesome as what we wish them to be. One should never tolerate being strung along or manipulated. When a relationship takes that shape, it is time to leave.
By allowing oneself to be “friend-zoned” by a manipulator, one relinquishes their autonomy to the will the manipulator. When a person voluntarily surrenders power to a coercive force, that person will be abused. Turn your back on those “friends” who only know how to interact through manipulation. They are no better than an abusive significant other. As people, we owe it to ourselves to seek the companionship of those who will treat us with respect, and the importance of self-respect as an integral part of any relationship can not be overstated.
I think that, when we discuss manipulation and abuse in relationships, we tend to focus only on intimate partner violence, and not enough on healthy friendship building. A lot of people fall into the trap of not realizing how easily they can be manipulated and abused by people with whom they are not intimately involved. This article has opened up an extensive dialogue on the issue, and clearly there is more investigating to be done.
oh dear! you do contradict yourself here. if you want respect as you say then take responsibility for your own desires and goals and don’t let other people manipulate you.
i dont think this article was written in that spirit at all. i dont think the suggestion was ever that he was being manipulated, just that he wasn’t getting exactly what he wanted from some female interests but that he had decided the friendship was worth having.
you clearly have not had that great experience of coming to terms with what is on offer and choosing to accept it as something you want even though it wasn’t what you originally set out to get.
you are a free agent.. please what is it with all these men who think women have all the power. what nonsense.
if anyone wants to think about power imbalances here is a real story of power and lack of it:
in Brittan 65% of prostitutes are women trafficked from poor countries who live as sex slaves. Often they leave their villages or city thinking they are going to get a job in a household as a cleaner. They are then sold on from one pimp to another. They find themselves in a foreign country with no money and no contact with anyone they know. They often don’t even speak the language. They’re lives are ruined. Some manage to escape and go to the authorities who are trying to eradicate such crimes but generally only seem to clean up one area, or clamp down on one source of human trafficking which merely pushes the problem to some other region.
That is abuse of power. That is lack of choice.
We are so lucky all we have to worry about is whether someone is being authentic and honest with us, or whether they are holding back something in order to get the upper hand in a situation and what we want to do about that. We have our intuition and experience to help us choose our associates wisely and form relationships and friendships with people we can trust, even if only relatively speaking as we are all in our own ways looking out for our own interests first (except perhaps parents). It takes a very long time to really know another person and we can’t seriously expect to build secure relationships if all we are interested in is our own gratification.
If you truly like another person you would want them to be happy. If you hardly know someone at all then it really is up to each of us to look out for ourselves. We can’t expect someone who has not formed a bond with us to really care about our feelings before their own. Even in a close relationship that is a very very difficult area to navigate. Negotiation with someone we trust and love is a delicate exchange where we seek balance and a win win for both people. But can we have that expectation from an acquaintance?
Wow, you could not have been more wrong about my identity and life experience. That, plus taking my words completely out of context, and ignoring that in every post I have advocated for respectful behavior regardless of sex. Oh well, more than two or three hits and returns on the internet tend to get fuzzy and misinterpreted anyway.
well at least half of that reply was addressed in a general way to the conversation and half was a response to the heavy and blame-full take you took. i was not seeking to interpret your life experience or personality but only the tone. you do not put a positive slant at all on the friend zone whereas the article does give it a balanced view. ie. sees the benefit in it.
there is no suggestion there that evil is going on if you desire someone but discover you are friends, or have hit a boundary where you can’t move closer in an intimate way. what he was saying is there is so much to gain from enjoying what is on offer.
that is the same for all of us all the time.
we can only have what we are offered.
saying that co-coerciveness and manipulation are at the helm of what ‘friend zone’ is about has been similarly touted and labelled as pet-keeping by someone with a similar name and in reference to women.
your comment was also a reply about a ‘certain kind of woman’.
i think this direction is getting away from the simplicity of the situation of not having desire reciprocated that we can all at times experience.
i also think, if you are advocating for self-actuation then you can’t also lay blame on someone else. in self-actuation we look for the reality of a situation and choose to act as free agents in knowledge and with compassion for others.
If a person has been put on a pedestal, as you say, that is the action of the one who put them their no-one else. and it is fraught! the source of manipulation then is one’s own thoughts that have led to a point where one is obsessed with another to the point they are held up on high. no person can make another put them in that place. no person can MAKE us into their pet unless we want to be.
As a very young woman i might have elevated people and projected onto them all kinds of qualities, fantasies, and expectations or hopes. but we grow past those phases and learn to look at what is really on offer, and who we are really with.
If we objectify another and expect them to be perfect, unselfish, caring, beautiful, and always reciprocate our desire and in equal measure, then most times we will be bitterly disappointed.
I think that people friend zone themselves and stew over its negative implications by lamenting over what they can’t have out of a friendship. A consensual relationship must be reciprocal, and if a person can’t accept that romantic reciprocity is not desired with a particular person, they can feel free to pity themselves and say they got relegated to a pathetic little friendship position. At what point did being someone’s friend become a completely worthless place-holder? I think that is an issue of self-reflection that the seeker needs to apply to him or herself.
Some people just won’t want to date you, and that is okay. It does not mean that you are a bad person, or ugly, or an unattractively smoldering basket case. It means that, this time, these two people aren’t compatible. Attraction is not at all universal. I mean let’s be real for a minute… there are seven billion of us humans on Earth. Should we really expect to be able to date and get along with every single person we meet? When we reflect upon our relationships with others as a rare opportunity to connect in an otherwise scrambled and misunderstanding world and stop seeing ourselves as entitled to other people’s attention and commitment, suddenly not dating that one particular person doesn’t sound like that big of a deal. It is important to be happy about the constructive things that one already has, rather than focusing attention on what is continually dissatisfying.
If I, as a potential friend or partner, can’t respect the boundaries established by another person, then not only would that make me a disrespectful friend, I’d also make for a tremendously unhealthy significant other. If I truly cared about the object of my affection, I would not invade upon that person’s boundaries for the sake of my personal satisfaction.
@Pallus beautifully put!
In reading the article and responses to it, seems to me the ‘friend zone’ is a place people recognise, not a limbo where you don’t know where you are. It’s not different to a woman saying to another ‘he’s just not that into you’. Once we realise we are in that space where our desires for another are not reciprocated in kind, we take responsibility for ourselves and make a decision about how to proceed from there.
As adults we are reading social cues all the time. Not everyone we are acquainted with is going to invite us to their exclusive dinner party with their closest friends, not everyone we work with is going to ask us out for drinks, not everyone we spend time with is going to be into us enough to take us home to bed, or to Europe for a holiday, or into their hearts. Not everyone who fancies us is going to burst with passion and be the love of our lives.
Good points above about trying to make clear communication. I think a little empathy goes a long way as well. If someone wants to be just friends, try to put yourself in his/her position for a moment. Imagine what it would be like to want someone as a friend but not a romantic partner.
(Besides, keep it just friends, find someone else, and maybe she’ll see what she’s missing….) : – )
Being “friend zoned” is yet another way in which woman can reject a man without actually rejecting him.
A lot of times woman reject a man by giving off signals that either go unnoticed or are interperated by men as a sign to continue wooing her until she’s responses positively. Woman need to VERBALLY communicate to men that they are not interest in a relationship. It”s wrong to pressure someone to accept your friendship when you know they want something more.
Taking a relationship out of the friend zone is fraught with risks. While there’s nothing wrong with starting off briefly as friends and then progressing into lovers, I think this stage is better left short. All through this friendship we have to both start feeling romantic tension early on, unrequited desire, something that keeps the idea that we might later fool around in the backs of our minds.
Long term friendships tend to take on the aura of a brother/sister relationship. You discover things about each other you’d never actually reveal to a dating prospect. Things you should NEVER actually reveal to a dating prospect.
Now, in your wisdom, you decide to cross over into a girlfriend/boyfriend relationship. Yuck! Ugh!
The last thing you want to start doing is screwing your own sister…I mean friend.
Ever heard of in-breeding? Water headed babies? Genetically compromising the gene pool?