The Sexless Father opens up about the times when his libido finds itself in conflict with the better angels of his nature.
This post originally appeared at The Sexless Father.
I came to an important realization today.
A friend, one of the very few people who knows my identity, wrote to say how impressed he was about my healthy attitude and interactions with The Mother. He told me that, despite his own better angels, unbalanced sex drives make him act “gross and coercive.”
And I felt totally called out.
Not, I think, because my friend meant to call me out. Without realizing it, he had described a side of this problem that I’ve been keeping secret from you. I want to see myself as the hero of my own story, and I know right from wrong. I do my best to take repeated sexual rejection in the healthy and productive ways I’ve described here. In all, I think I do a pretty good job.
But I created this blog anonymously in order to afford me the opportunity to be completely honest, and complete honesty is what I want to share. As much as I try to be a good man, sometimes I am terrible.
Example.
I am lying in bed with The Family. The Kids are sleeping on the outside edges, and The Mother and I are reading books side by side in the middle. She is deeply focused on her book. I am trying to follow the story of mine, but my my mind keeps jumping over to her body.
I know that if I tell her what I’m wanting – passionate necking, erotic touch, and sex – she will say no and that will end things. My fragile ego and wishful dick compose a plan. She will, I convince myself, be more receptive to body language.
I reach over and stroke her shoulder in a gesture that I hope is suggestive enough to be unmistakable while remaining chaste enough to maintain plausible deniability. She ignores me and keeps reading. But she doesn’t say no, so I cuddle in close and keep caressing. She is still reading, offering no sign that she is enjoying my touch. I kiss her neck and reach my hand around to cup one of her breasts. She breaks her stillness to push me away.
“Not tonight, okay? I’m tired.”
I roll away from her and sullenly return to my book.
“I was liking the gentle rubbing.”
I stare at the text and studiously don’t respond. We fall into mutual silence, and she returns to her reading. I try to read again, going over the same sentence again and again until my eyes wear a rut in the page. My mind is flashing, unbidden, to images of our sex. My mouth on her breasts. Her hands on my hips. Trying to read is useless; these pictures are so strong they are like fever dreams.
Once more I reach out and touch her. I say, “Honey?” She drops her eyes from her book once more, and they meet mine. I look back with hang dog eyes and touch her hip in a way I hope she will like. “The kids are asleep.”
I know she reads a thousand levels of subtext into this. “I’m really tired. And achy.” She says. “Not tonight, okay?”
“Okay.” I say, monosyllabically trying not to sound defeated, and failing. I pout for a minute, and my lips part to utter, “never tonight.”
Without waiting for a response, I crawl over The Boy and out of bed. I close the door more forcefully than I need to. When I return in an hour or so, she will be asleep and I will be so wracked with guilt and shame that I will have to put my back to her. When I wake up, we will say nothing about this night, as we have said nothing about so many nights – and afternoons and mornings – that have come before and will most likely come again.
What It Feels Like To Be Terrible.
I know that I did everything I could to make The Mother feel bad and guilty for saying no. And although I feel terrible, although I have been terrible, I still – and this is the most terrible thing of all – I still feel angry. I feel as though I am the victim of a great injustice. I feel – as I have acted – petulant.
I do not want this.
My entitled, pouting bullshit is something I’ve tried for years to carve out of myself. I feel, today, that I have a pretty good handle on the behavior. Better, anyway, than I have had in years.
But the feelings; anger, resentment, entitlement, shame, fear of rejection, inadequacy – these are still strong with me. These feelings surface every time I suggest sex and The Mother refuses. My feelings are not her responsibility. But even knowing this, when these feelings start my mind begins playing a well worn tape loop that starts,”If only she would just…”
Maybe one day I will get to the point that I will believe the things I already know to be true. That my feelings are my responsibility. That it is okay when The Mother doesn’t want to have sex. That there is nothing wrong with me sexually. That we’re both doing the best that we can in a tricky situation. That things will get better. Maybe if I learn to believe these things enough, the demons will get out of my head. Maybe I will sluff off all the world’s ideas about what it means to be a good man, ideas about being a thoroughly irresistible sexual dynamo, ideas that echo from a subconscious cavern so deep that I can’t clean it out.
I don’t want anyone else’s ideas telling me untrue stories about who I am or what sex means.
But until I can totally expel these thoughts, I can at least be honest with The Mother about what is in my head and in my heart. I can let her know the ways that our sexual problems put my higher brain in conflict with my subconscious self. I can strive to keep control of my actions with my thinking brain, and I can be deeply sorry when my feeling heart lashes out with a hurt that none of us can fully understand.
In short, sometimes I am not a good man.
Sometimes I am terrible. I am trying to be better.
Photo—X-Ray Specs from Shutterstock
About The Sexless Father
The problem is entirely in how you’re framing this stuff, with your mindset, and your attitude. There is a way out of this morass.
First and foremost, you don’t need to make excuses for your desires. You don’t need to shame yourself for having a healthy male libido. The rest of the issues derive from this single source. There is a way forward.
You need to get onto Athol Kay’s site, read his book, read his archives. You have google at your fingertips, let them do the walking.
Forgive me for being blunt. I’ve read Athol Kay, and I think he’s a horrible mysoginistic boor. The furthest thing in the world from a good man. And apologist for objectification of the worst kind. No, I don’t think any of his ideas are a solution in the slightest.
I don’t think Athol’s misogynistic. Misanthropic, maybe – he certainly doesn’t have a very lofty or elevated view of human nature. But I’m not outright going to say he’s wrong, and right or wrong in what he believes, he (and his wife) seem pretty content.
As Slartibartfast put it, “I’d rather be happy than right any day”.
It seems as if there are other underlying issues embedded within your marriage other than the lack of sexual contact. I’m left to assume they aren’t enough to dissolve your partnership (or are you staying together ‘for the kids’?) . It’s difficult to believe that this lack of intimacy doesn’t translate negatively in other ways during your children’s (and your) daily interactions with The Mother, so what is it you’re holding onto? I’m not in any way suggesting this is reason enough to jump the proverbial ship, but it’s worth diving into.
Women always assume there are other underlying issues when there is little to no sex in a marriage. I bristle when I hear this nonsense!
As a man who spent over a decade in a sexless marriage, I can honestly and objectively say the problem was squarely my ex wife. She just did not want to have sex with me any longer. There was nothing I could do to change things. I tried. Unlike many husbands, I cooked, cleaned the house, help take care of our son,…..You name it. I just believe she lost interest.
Women need to stop blaming other “underlying issues” for a sexless marriage. I would venture to say 80%-90% it is the woman who is at fault. I have com to realize that women are poorly suited for marriage and/or long term relationships. Women need variety in sex. Women usually become sexually bored with their husbands. This variety can only be met, in my opinion, through a variety of sexual partners. This is why women tend to have far more sexual partners over a lifetime than men.
I deeply empathize with the author. It is truly a horrible way to live. Also, what it demonstrates is the sheer callousness and selfishness of a lot of women. They truly do not care what the man is feeling. Yet, they are the first people on earth to demand sympathies for how they feel as well as emotional connectedness blah blah blah.
I now have only FWBs arrangements with women. I really think a man is simply being delusional to think that the sex will continue at a healthy quantity (2-3 times a week) after marriage. Monogamy is not only bad for women but men too. I have a high libido and am not willing to trust it to just one woman. If I could build myself a harem, I would do so.
JMO.
I kind of agree with you, except with the caveat that there can be medical issues that really put a damper on a woman’s sex drive in certain cases. E.g., taking anti-depressants, or having something that’s causing pain or discomfort “down there.” but you are right that ifyou’ve ruled out all other causes, and the situation continues for a long time, it could very well be that your wife simply does not like sex, or does not like having sex with YOU. In which case, my advice would be to get divorced. Yes, men can get screwed financially in divorce but so can women. See a good lawyer first.
” Unlike many husbands, I cooked, cleaned the house, help take care of our son,…..You name it. I just believe she lost interest.”
I don’t think any of this actually makes you any sexier. If you were a SAHD in a marriage and your full-time working wife, without changing anything else about herself, cooked, cleaned, and did more childcare, would you really find your wife any sexier? Sure, you might feel better about her as a person, but would that raw animal passion really come flooding back? I doubt it. IMHO this kind of “solution” is looking in the wrong direction.
The usual woman’s excuse for a low libido, though, is that the man doesn’t join in on the cooking, cleaning, and child-rearing. A woman’s libido is one of the most important things to keep consistent, the libidos have to match up for a monogamous relationship to even work, otherwise, there will be consistent sexual tension, which builds up over time.
So women claim to have really high libidos that are repressed. Something that I agree with, partially out of hope. When we ask why, they give reasons, when we follow these reasons, they say there are still more things blocking.
I think it probably comes from an overall disdain for sex, especially male sexuality. We consider it untrustworthy, creepy, immature, objectifying, and depersonalizing. We consider it a sign of disrespect and treat it as though men want to use women as little more than a sentient fleshlight.
Many times, a guy wants sex for the close intimacy, the reminder that she actually loves him, to keep things fun between the two of them, etc. Sexuality is something that supposed to be celebrated and fun, but we treat it the opposite, so women are more offended my men’s attraction than they are flattered.
Comes from a few things, I thing. Disdain for male sexuality is definitely part of it. Society’s attitude to motherhood doesn’t help either, in terms of how women are supposed to be perfect mothers at all times, while other roles – such as being a good spouse and good lover are completely forgotten. A lot of it, though, comes down to the fact that everyone everywhere, men and women alike, downplay and ignore sex and its importance to a LTR, when in reality if the sex ain’t there the relationship is basically just not going to survive in any kind of tolerable form.* Result being that no one really spends much time thinking about how to be/stay as sexy as possible in order to be as attractive as possible , and also devote themselves to learning their partner’s body and mind so that they can be the best lover they can be. Result = disaster.
This is all kind of academic, though, because of the attachment parenting style of The Father and The Mother, which makes them pretty much unique as far as your average sexless marriage you read about on the internet is concerned. If you read the blog it’s pretty clear that the demands the kids place on the The Mother’s time and her body legitimately are pretty darn crazy, and having read all The Father’s and Mother’s posts I’m still completely unclear as to whether or not the The Mother genuinely is a lower-libido woman (to the point where compatibility would be a problem) or is just a victim of circumstance, trying to do the impossible. The sex was good before kids, apparently.
To clarify, my mother raised no fewer than six kids (I’m the oldest) while home educating some of them, and so if I say if some parenting sounds pretty hardcore, it probably is.
*Honourable exceptions made for asexuals and those who go the open marriage route.
Yes. We need to de-emphasize both the mother as the exclusive source of care, and the father as the prime responsibility for income. Men usually work jobs they don’t want at hours they don’t want because society and themselves hold them primarily responsible for any economic struggles the family faces. A man is more likely to cut back on his personal life to gain income.
If we reduce the woman’s exclusive responsibility to the kids, and reduce the man’s exclusive responsibility to income, you can raise kids with decent income, better life quality, and without constantly butting heads about whose role is harder.
Very true for many people.
(although actually not the problem here, obviously)
You do need to stop guilting yourself though. You’re not a bad person for wanting to fuck your wife! But you’re in a hole – sorry, no innuendo intended – and you need to find a way out of it that preserves your integrity before it implodes under the pressure.
It’s a tough call, I see that. Your situation is exactly why I’ll never marry or breed. Vows are dangerous things.
I think it’s quite brave of you to write about this, even under anonymity. The scene you described has happened countless times in my marriage, and it never stops being miserable. I wish I could tell you how to fix it, but I haven’t found anything that works yet.
I will say this: Being a male feminist should not mean that you act like a doormat for women. Men like us should recognize women as equals, and partners–not as our authority. You should treat her as your equal, but you should have the personal dignity to expect the same respect. Like all things, there’s a balance, and you have to find it.
Sexual incompatibility is documented as one of the leading causes for divorce, so I wouldn’t take it lightly. I recommend the one thing I have not tried yet: get marriage counseling.
I don’t have anything more to offer but a listening ear, if you want it, but I certainly understand your pain. I wish you the best of luck.
The only thing I see wrong here is trying to have sex while the kids are in bed.
As a woman, I feel like I need to give this author and a lot of men here a clue. There is nothing sexy about being touched by a man in a way that immediately and clearly transmits his agenda and expectations for sex. Often, a woman’s libido thrives on tentativeness, open-ended exploration, and gradual build up – elements that often hallmark the first sexual experiences between a couple and then fly right out the window when sex becomes routine and expected. I think this is a really difficult concept for men to grasp and then execute well, because, most of the time, men in a relationship DO have an agenda and expectations for sex when the touching begins, and women can smell that a mile away.
When his wife mentioned that she was enjoying the gentle rubbing, that might have been her way of trying to tell him in that sex RIGHT NOW didn’t seem all that appealing, but she was open to spending some pleasurable time together… and who knows where that would have led, had he taken her up on it? It’s pretty unusual to find a woman who is just automatically in the mood for sex… but we are highly seduce-able creatures.
Everyone has an agenda raindizzle, which is usually why conflict occurs. Guilt is for stopping agendas running amok, but I do have to be aware that I actually have an agenda for guilt to work.
“As a woman, I feel like I need to give this author and a lot of men here a clue. There is nothing sexy about being touched by a man in a way that immediately and clearly transmits his agenda and expectations for sex. ”
The expectation of sex is sexy. And usually if a women likes you then you lead and she follows. That means you initiate sex and she gets turned on! That is the way it is supposed to work. I have never had to work for sex like this. To me having sex is like dancing, you lead and the women follows. You just indicate direction and she goes where you want. Like magic. You don’t have to play games, pussyfoot around the issue, pretend to be after something else or whatever. You set the tone and she responds. She is sexually reactive and the guy is proactive. This is normal, natural and fucking right. It accords with most romance novels, female sexual fantasies etc.
The weird fucking bullshit this guy is going through I don’t identify with and don’t understand. I don’t think his wife likes or respects him. If this is what marriage is then I am never getting married.
“I don’t think his wife likes or respects him.”
That is what it really is all about. She no longer wants to have sex with him.
That is OK. However, what is inexcusable is for he not to be honest and tell him why she is no longer interested. What I have learned about women is if she likes you and is into you, she will fuck you, period. If she does not like you or is no longer into you, you’re done.
So, there is nothing he can do in this situation. She will NEVER change. I elected to divorce. I have NO regrets either. Now, I have a tremendous and healthy sex life.
Btw, this crap about men leading and the woman following IS only for the romance novels…Yes, women like men to be the aggressor…….But, if a woman is horny and is into you, she will take the initiative.
But, if a woman is horny and is into you, she will take the initiative.
True. I just experienced that one a few weeks ago. She flatly asked when was I gonna kiss her to which I said she could flip it and kiss me first….and with no hesitation she did.
Hey, good on you… always awesome when that happens! One of my current FWB arrangements is a little more aggressive and open than the average young lady and I love it… it takes some of the mysterious pressure out of it for me.
Raindizzle: “we are highly seduce-able creatures”
I think you may be generalising.
No means no. Ergo, “Not tonight” means not tonight.
Here’s a clue for you. If you expect, on the one hand that your husband or boyfriend is going seduce and wheedle and tentatively explore the open-ended possibility of having sex every time he wants it… expect on the other hand that at some point he may run into or go looking for someone who’s more enthusiastic.
Failing that, he’s may simply end up a lot less interested in you and your relationship.
Yah, I’ve been in that type of relationship before. Tried to make it work for over a year and it… didn’t age well, to say the least. We both sought circumstances better suited to our personalities and needs and are much happier that way.
“Often, a woman’s libido thrives on tentativeness, open-ended exploration, and gradual build up….”
This is only true for a woman’s husband or long-term partners. Herein lies the problem. Women have a different set of rules for different men. While they are single and dating, they get horny and engage in casual sex as well as booty calls. NO WARM UP NECESSARY.
However, after marriage women start imposing all these bullshit requirements for sex. Many as you suggested. So, in essence there is a much higher standard imposed on her husband that was not imposed on her prior lovers. This really pisses me off about women.
What really is at work though is the wife has lost interest in sex with her husband. Fine. Be honest. Just say so and avoid all this other shit you’re saying. It really IS that simple.
Bottom line: Women just are not suited to sex one man the rest of her life. Hence, they should avoid marriage and monogamous relationships.
When his wife mentioned the gentle rubbing, she was pretty clearly telling him he can continue to meet her needs, but that he shouldn’t expect her to meet his. If you read his other posts, she seems pretty damn selfish.
Neighbor, I really do feel bad for you and hope you get this all worked out… at least stop feeling so bad about yourself. It took me a long time to come to terms with libido and being “good,” whatever that means too, but it’s something you’ve got to work out for yourself and a fumbling fool like me really can’t help you with it too much. I mean, I read this and really didn’t see you at all as the villainous creature you seemed to portray yourself as… mostly the old Johnny Cash song “the Beast in Me,” and all its implications, kept running through my head, and the poisonous Knight/Beast dichotomy. Hmm, too late for real coherence, just free association. You’re not alone in the struggle, though. As Red Green says, we’re all in this together.
I had these same feelings in my sexless relationship as well. I think what frustrated me more was that there was absolutely no middle ground with him. I had to give up sex period, end of story. Our sex life was dictated by when he was in the mood, period end of story. There was no discussion about it. I couldn’t help that when I touched him I was turned on more than the once every 2 months sex session we had. So for me it took sitting down and fully realizing that there are 2 people in the relationship. There has to be a middle ground and one partner is not willing to even entertain the idea of middle ground then really for me what more is there to salvage. If my partner is that indifferent to me, my needs and my myriad of feelings (sadness, guilt, shame, anger etc.) that are coming from that or really any situation then that is not the kind of relationship I want to be in.
I’ve also been with people who have higher sex drive than me and have taken the lessons I learned in that sexless relationship and applied it to those relationships. As a woman it may take me longer to get turned (I say may because it’s not universal) but as a woman it’s my responsibility to work on that. If my partner has more needs in the sex department than I naturally do we can find a middle ground but it will require work from me to turn myself on those days where maybe I’m not turned on. It’s foolish for me to expect the man to do all the work to ignite my drive or for me to ask any partner I have to drastically decrease their needs because I won’t put the work in to myself.
And realistically if my libido vanished completely I would be heading into the doctor to check things out and start figuring out solutions. Again that is my responsibility as being half of a relationship because it’s healthy for the relationship to address those issues head on.
I’m going to post a video as a reply to the comment I’m about to make.
What is so horrible about your libido that whenever you feel defeated, you obliterate your own self-respect? Take two hits for her one? Not only do you feel bad for being turned down, you also feel bad for showing it. This is a perfect plan to lead your mind down a rabbit hole, because you’re essentially doubling your frustration every nice you want some lovemaking and she doesn’t.
You have no right more right to beat yourself up for wanting sex than you do her for not wanting it. This isn’t an issue of her morality or yours. This isn’t even necessarily a problem in the relationship.
As Christopher Ryan describes in the video, we may be pair-bonders emotionally, but we aren’t built for sex with the same person the whole time. So choosing Monogamy is like an omnivore choosing vegetarianism. It’s a choice, but one that takes a lot of willpower, because it goes against nature.
Naturally, we were built for a much more balanced libido between men and women. But with current expectations and social structures, a woman’s libido is more repressed or diminished. Especially in how we talk about sexuality. (To women, it seems to be more of a “guilty pleasure”, said to respect her body and not her soul. We attach sexuality to shallowness, which turns women’s desire for it off. Combine this with the assumption that women are asexual, and you get a severely repressed libido.)
You may need to seek couples help to get the ball rolling again, which is nothing to be ashamed of, and it has little to do with a weak will. It’s a tough challenge that we weren’t built for, so we need external help if we want things to run smoothly.
When (if) the link in the reply gets approved, take a look at it. It’s very informative, and lets you know that what you’re going though is very common. Not disgraceful, not perverted, not weak.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9ygq7F4TX4
You guys, this is a fascinating discussion. I don’t want to reply point by point, or try to unpack everything that’s come up in this conversation. I don’t have all night.
What I’ll say (and what you’ll get if you read more of my story at http://sexlessfather.wordpress.com) is that while my wife, The Mother, doesn’t want to have sex with me, she really wants to want to. She tells me she wants to want to. It’s something inside that won’t click for her. So we’re talking it out, and writing it out, and doing our best to work it out.
There are a lot (a LOT) of really good things in our marriage (not least of which the beautiful kids). We do a lot of things well together. We believe that we have the capacity to do this thing well together again, as we once did. This piece is about one kind of interaction we have – it is us at our worst. When we’re at our best, I promise you, we’re much better than the people in this article. I’d invite you to come read more of what we have to say.
I hope that works out for you. I feel like I’m reading my own story, except for the attachment parenting part. like your wife, mine also “wanted to want.” It took two decades before we realized what that truly meant to us. I always took it to mean she wanted to want sex, but what it really meant is she wanted to desire me, but in the end she just wasn’t that into me. I had been “friend-zoned” a year into our marriage (probably before we got married, actually, but she was more willing to fake-it-til-you-make-it before kids) but she was too conflicted about her feelings for me to let me know.
At some point, and I hope you never reach this point, you’re 45 and you look back and you realize that you just spent 20 years trying to make something work that couldn’t work, because one of you simply isn’t able to make feelings for you that aren’t there. Your wife sounds an awful lot like my wife, which is why I bother replying to this. I never doubted my wife’s love for me, but for too many years she and I both believed that our mutual love and affection would once again turn into desire. Maybe one day my libido would have waned enough that we could enjoy each other’s company without the weight of sex always hanging in the air. But in the end I just wasn’t committed enough to waiting it out. Does that make me terrible?
“We believe that we have the capacity to do this thing well together again, as we once did.”
Shorter version of my rambling response above: so did we, my friend, so did we. good luck and take care.
“What I’ll say (and what you’ll get if you read more of my story at http://sexlessfather.wordpress.com) is that while my wife, The Mother, doesn’t want to have sex with me, she really wants to want to. She tells me she wants to want to. It’s something inside that won’t click for her. So we’re talking it out, and writing it out, and doing our best to work it out. ”
My problem with all of this is that you seem to have taken the whole responsbility for this situation. Your doing all the work and your article is about how you consider yourself terrible if you even blame her. I think this is kind of ridiculous. Why is she presumed good. Because she is a woman? From what I read, she is doing little, behaving very selfishly and she should be feeling bad about this. You make all the best assumptions about her and all the worst assumptions about yourself.
You write:
“But even knowing this, when these feelings start my mind begins playing a well worn tape loop that starts,”If only she would just…”
If only she would just, is not an unreasonable thought. Its exactly what i am thinking.
My question is, is she actively doing anything else on the matter, besides telling him that “she really wants to want to”?
Besides, I don’t think he should be “deeply sorry” for showing his feelings of reject and disappointment.
Does she always take a negative answer by him with a gracious smile…?
I’ve been there. You have to leave her. I know you like to think of yourself as nobly for the sake of your family but the truth of the matter is you are setting a terrible example for your children. Kids will learn their attitudes about relationships from you. If you are unfulfilled they will learn that is okay too. You need to break the cycle. You need to teach your children that it is okay to get what you want in life and if your partner doesn’t care about your needs enough to lift a finger s/he isn’t a good partner. After my divorce I am happier and my kids are happier and better adjusted.