Two of our regular columnists debate a perennial controversy: should the man pay on the first date?
In the age of OK Cupid and PlentyofFish, first dates are as popular as ever, and so is the subject of first-date etiquette. Two of our regular columnists debate this controversy: should the man pay on the first date?
Last Monday, Emily Heist Moss—who is in her 20s and actively dating—wrote a piece called Splitting the Check: Yes, Please! in which she made the case for “going dutch.”
Hugo Schwyzer—a married dude in his mid-40s who admits he hasn’t been on a first date since the 20th century—takes a different approach, arguing that there are good reasons why men today should still pick up the first tab. Here is what they say:
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Hugo: Emily, I loved your post about paying for dates. But I want to offer a different take and get your thoughts.
In my single days, I always offered to pay on the first date. It’s not because I’m old school or trying to impress. (Okay, maybe a little of the latter.) It certainly has nothing to do with trying to establish a quid pro quo.
I think men should offer to pay on the first date for another reason: the enduring economic disparity between men and women. As you know, women still make less than men for comparable work in this country. Obviously, that’s true in general terms only; it certainly doesn’t mean that on any given heterosexual date, the man always has more disposable income than the woman.
Emily: I agree with your premise, Hugo, but not your conclusions. It’s true women make less on average than men, but I don’t actually think we can apply that general rule to dating. Extrapolate that further, and you start to run into some sticky situations. For example, on average, white people make more money than black people. Would we expect the white partner in any interracial dating scenario to pay for the black person? That scenario, like the gender wage gap, is borne out of historic inequalities that persist today. As you pointed out, we don’t date in a vacuum, but we can’t let macro inequalities trickle into one-on-one interactions. If I did that, every time I talked to a man, I’d be weighed down with the sheer inequality of it all, and that’s no fun!
Hugo: But there’s another way in which this disparity has a real impact.
We have cultural expectations about dates. These expectations were around when I was single, when my parents were single, and from what I hear, they’re still around today. One obvious one is that you show up to a date looking nice. That doesn’t mean you pull out all the stops—you don’t want to intimidate or appear like you’re trying too hard. But you do want to “clean up good” for someone who might be “the one” (or at least “the one for a good long time.”)
Emily: Again, grant the premise, disagree on the conclusion! I don’t personally equate looking nice with expense. I don’t get haircuts more frequently if I’m going on dates, and I don’t buy new clothes. I “pay” in prep time, but we’re talking about a pretty small increment. Many women do put significantly more money into appearance than I do (and I admit, I’m one end of the spectrum). I think, however, that we all make choices about how we spend our money that are pressured and influenced by popular culture and expectations, men and women both.
Hugo: Generally speaking, the cost of “cleaning up good” is much higher for women. If we were to go into the bathrooms of men and women before the date and note the cost of all the product they use to get ready, it’s pretty likely that we’d find the woman spent considerably more. Both men and women are likely to shave in our culture, and both (one hopes) will wash their hair regularly. But when you throw in the cost of make-up and other grooming products, it would be a rare man who outspends the average woman. Metrosexuality is real, but its pervasiveness is oversold. Women still spend much more on looking good than do men.
Emily: Metrosexuality is not a great comparison for female beauty standards. Schmucky looking guys get well-groomed women all the time. That’s because typically, men and women (and I’m making a pretty broad generalization here) look for different things as indicators of success and desirability. Men might have put their money elsewhere in order to impress the ladies. They may have bought a car, for example, knowing that there is some contingent of women who favor men with wheels.
Hugo: Add in the reality that women pay more for haircuts and drycleaning (often substantially more), and there’s little doubt that the average young American woman has probably spent a lot more money getting ready than has her prospective beau. In that light, expecting him to pay for the date is less unreasonable than it first appears.
Emily: I think it’s fair to assume that we all are constantly trying to impress our desired partners, but we go about that in different ways. Having a higher income is and of itself a “burden” that men have to bear in order to make themselves more desirable to women. I’m not advocating that that’s right or fair (it isn’t), only that financial expectations are placed on both genders, they just manifest differently. Given that framework, I’d prefer that both of us approach a first date as individuals. I don’t expect him to pay because I don’t want him to think that his money is part of his appeal, and I don’t want him to treat me because he thinks that I can’t make as much as he can or because I spend my income on beauty maintenance.
Hugo: Thanks for these responses, Emily. Reading them, I don’t disagree with your take, though I still think the average woman’s cost of “looking good” exceeds any comparable costs for men. As you yourself say, “schmucky looking guys” get dates all the time—and for that matter, increasingly, so too do guys who don’t have cars and the other associated trappings of traditional masculine success.
Emily: That’s true. I do, however, also think that there’s a correlation between women who spend more on beauty maintenance and men with “trappings of traditional masculine success.” In other words, people who invest in the conventional things to “win” a mate are drawn to other people who also invest in those conventional things. I don’t spend a lot on my beauty routine, and I’m not looking for guys with fancy toys.
Hugo: Perhaps there’s a way we’re both right. Men should still offer to pay and be graceful about accepting a woman’s request to split the tab. When a man insists on picking up the check (because of chivalry or the reasons I’ve outlined above) over a woman’s request to share the cost, he’s showing a serious disregard for his date. I think we’d agree that’s a red flag. So, in this uncertain age where so many of us have one foot in tradition and one foot in modernity, this may be the best compromise.
Emily: Agreed. Men should offer on first dates. Not because I think they should pay, but because it’s the safer option. Offering and then agreeing to split won’t get you into trouble the way that expecting to go dutch might with a certain group of ladies.
Hugo: We’ve reached consensus!
I’ll finish with an anecdote. I was on a blind date many years ago. When the check came after an awkward lunch, we both reached for it. I used a standard line I’d had since college: “How ‘bout you let me get this one, and you can get next time?”
My date looked at me with a cool stare. “I don’t think there’ll be a next time,” she replied.
Ouch. I hadn’t been all that “in to” her either, but was both stung and impressed by her brutal candor. I paused, and said, “Well, may I pick it up to thank you for your time?” She gave me a Mona Lisa smile and a small nod of acquiescence. I paid the bill. and we never saw each other again.
Emily, last thoughts?
Emily: Nah, I think you’ve got it covered. 🙂
—Photo moreofavideoguy/Flickr
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This is something I have a belief in. If i were the one who asked her to dinner, by asking her something along the lines of “let me take you to dinner” or similar, then i knowingly say that I will be footing the bill, not out of any chivalry need, or anything remotely related to what Emily and Hugo touch on. It’s simply based on that i was the one who asked. If she asked me to a dinner, i hold the same understanding, that by asking me to dinner, it is understood that she will be the one… Read more »
In Scandinavia, where feminism is much stronger than here in the States, women get OFFENDED if you don’t allow them to pay.
While American girls will pretend to want to pay, they will rarely protest when you slightly insist to pay the entire check. They want equality, just not when it comes to the check.
Decades ago, working on a field project in college ‘way across the country, I had as an immediate partner an attractive and ferociously bright young woman. One evening, working late in an office, probably a bit numb from fatigue, we got into a cheerful argument over who got something or other. Forget what it was, but we were doing a tug of war and laughing. In retrospect, I think I may have been wrong to think at the time it was a contest to see which of us ended up with the maguffin. Perhaps I should have reeled it in,… Read more »
Why should one pay for both of them? Why should he pay to feed her or she pay to feed him? I thought this site was to encourage gender equality (feminism)? Equality would be that they agree on the place (a place they can each afford) and simply pay for themselves.
If you suck up to a woman by playing the bigshot and offering to pay for stuff just because she is a woman, you deserve the rejection that is an inevitable result of your sycophancy.
This is why “The Goodmen Project” is a farce. Your of Cain. You hate and abuse other men and belong in jail for felony fraud!
Same with bigot friend Emily. People like you will be held accountable, just like all those pro-KKK writers and how they where ostracized from society after the last Civil Rights movement.
Not every woman makes less than every man and men should not feel self-conscious about that any more than women should (though men are more likely to do so based upon the comments made in the dialogue.) I am all for romance and I love doing nice (and even expensive) things for my wife (even when she was my girlfriend)- not to impress but to let her know how much I love her and value her being in my life. That is not an issue on a first date. We are just getting to know each other. have the conversation… Read more »
I guess this series started with internet dating, which I’ve never done, but when I was dating the guy offering to pay/paying was a signal that this was a “real date” and not just friends hanging out. And not arguing too hard about splitting the check was similarly a signal of interest in this being a “real date.” Insisting on splitting might be taken to mean “not interested in a romantic relationship.” So many in person invitations are kind of ambiguous about whether it’s a friend thing or a “date” thing. I guess that’s less true with internet dating where… Read more »
“Offering and then agreeing to split won’t get you into trouble the way that expecting to go dutch might with a certain group of ladies.”
But that “certain group of ladies” is a group I have no interest in dating, and no other guy should either.
Guys, don’t offer to pay on the first date. If she expects you to pay, she’s not worth dating.
On the first date, I’ll pay my share. I won’t pay her share unless I really enjoyed her company and actually want to spend more time with her. Yes, this means that I don’t get a lot of second dates. I don’t care, because I know that as a man I need a woman as much as a fish needs a bicycle.
Here look, women take more time off than men on a 28 day cycle and that accounts for 14% of the wage gap. “He and another economics professor, Andrea Ichino analysed personnel data at an Italian bank which recorded the date and duration of every employee absence from work and found the absences of women below the age of 45 followed a 28-day cycle. The professors concluded the menstrual cycle did increase female absenteeism and this explained at least 14 per cent of the gender pay difference. But they also found the sick days were due to genuine pain –… Read more »
Men paying on the first date is sexism, discrimination – and quite frankly should be made illegal by the government.
I would rather not have the government involved with relationships between consenting adults. It’s bad enough we have family law.
Emily is spot on. She makes several points that Hugo chooses to ignore. Emily’s point that women spend money on the same exact things whether or not they’re going on a date is ignored. Hugo’s argument would make sense if it were also true that women got free stuff at the mall for getting dolled up to go to the mall. Emily also counters by pointing out that the guy is expected to pick her up in a fancy car. Hugo’s argument would actually sound reasonable if it were the case where girls had to pay for the date whenever… Read more »
As a 20-something woman who has gone on dates with guys and girls, I somewhat prefer one person paying the check to both. A lot of people I know are bad at remembering to carry sufficient cash, and having the wait-staff handle cards can be annoying. Even where that isn’t true, paying for one’s partner’s meal is a gesture of care and affection that many people like doing. Generally, my partner and I take turns paying for meals, whether I’m dating a man or a lady.
if they are bad then maybe they deserve to be single until they “get it” … we all make mistakes but a first date is supposed to showcase your prime abilities, aka no mistakes… unless you like messed up dates?
That just reduces a first date to an expensive job interview. Fuck that.
Just suppose we are going to follow Hugos idea that there should be a set rule.
I have a far better idea than anyone else here.
The person that is asked out pays for the date as the person doing the asking has already invested by taking the risk of rejection.
That is a pretty fair contribution to the argument
I think the women should offer to split. But not because the man makes more? He might not…
But because I think it takes away from the whole….’owe’ something mentality.
On the other hand, if someone who makes more money… wants to get lobster and steak and caviar… they should pay for their less high earning date… regardless of gender.
Same goes with asking friends out to dinner.
also, women should stop expecting men to ask them out and start asking men out.
Men will have to change their double standard mindset before it becomes acceptable or worthwhile for women to ask men out.
Men generally do not want women to ask them out. Well, not the average woman. They want their manic pixie dream girl to ask them out. They get rude, uncomfortable, hostile, or lewd when a woman they are not genuinely interested in asks them out. They also jump to insane conclusions because of their ‘man logic’… aka. no logic at all.
As if you have asked many men out, you aggressive, dishonest little twerp. If you hate men so much, why are you always posting on a men’s magazine and cant you tell the men are sick and tired of Hugo’s feminists emoting and blaming men for their shortcomings and insecurities here?
Also, if that’s how you think men generally are, you just aren’t attracting the right men. Be less aggressive, self pitying and misandrist and your life and the people in it, will improve
The other thing is—Hugo is a self-professed feminist, but his insistence here on maintaining the status quo seems like benevolent paternalism to me. There is nothing subversive to the patriarchy of saying “Men should pay because women have to do all this make-up stuff that’s also expensive.” Even if that made any sense (and it doesn’t), the truly subversive thing would be for women not to wear make-up (and many don’t) and not to do all that prep stuff. And then if certain traditionalist men complain “Hey, you didn’t doll up for this date” het women can say “Hey, I… Read more »
I have to disagree with you on this. I’m a female attorney, and the only reason women earn less on average is that (a) they are more likely to take lower paying jobs in government or as house counsel, and (b) at law firms, they are more likely to trade off less money for more flexible hours, work part time or become non-equity partners. Women attorneys who don’t have children make just as much as men on average (according to some study I read). So you might ask, well that’s not fair, why shouldn’t a woman be able to work… Read more »
Awesome post. I love it when women tell it like it is.
Another POV: I’m confused. You don’t dispute rampant sexism in our society, but you think the legal field is the one shining island of egalitarianism, where everybody is judged completely on merit and on how many hours they work? I don’t think you spent long at all in the private sector if you think that.
Seems like you find it easier to complain and bitch , rather than try harder like every one else, booo hooo the world is unfair,, stfu and try harder, maybe then you will make more..
Stop whining and put in the same hours in the same jobs.
By proactive instead of crying to the government because working less leans less wages.
In my circle of broke twentysomething college grads, the rule is that whomever can afford it most can pay, but barring clear disparities, you split.
I rarely let a man pay for a first date because you never want to give a man a reason to think that you owe him something. It enables creeper behavior.
If you think men are creeps, just stay away from us.
Thanks.
I’m a little bit confused by this whole “women earn more than men, so women should pay” and “men earn more than women, so men should pay” business. No gender as a whole earns more than an entire other gender as a whole. In other words, regardless of how you interpret or misinterpret general income data with regard to gender, there will always be many individual women who earn more than individual men and many individual men who earn more than individual women. So if income is really relevant at all to the debate about who pays, the deciding factor… Read more »
If you divided up all the monetary resources in the world, the vast majority of it would belong to men. Yes. Men as a whole… out earn women.
Because ONE survey came out with findings that college aged, professional (working in high paying jobs, they didn’t even count the women who did not work in those jobs) women in their 20s (not 30 or 40s or 50s) in a handful of cities outearned men their own age…
=/=
Women earn the same as men.
It means when they do the same work they out earn men.
By that logic, if you were to divide up all the monetary resources equitably to each and every person in the world, I think you might find that women hold most of the world’s wealth. The fact is that the female gender outnumbers the male gender as an overall percentage of global population
The top 400 richest people are all men (but one or two women), they hold such a huge share of the world’s wealth… there is no comparison. Look at Forbes 400. Don’t just pull shit out of your ass.
Then women need to stop retiring or semi retiring early and make the same sacrifice that men do, simples. Its you who is pulling shit out of their ass and getting aggressive when the facts contradict your bs. And I counted 5 women in the 1st 100, you dishonest person. Also women control most of the Americas wealth, 60% of it. Here are some facts. – According to the U.S. Department of Education, in the 2005-06 school year, women made up: 57.5 percent of all students earning bachelor’s degrees. Nearly 60 percent of students earning master’s degrees. 48.9 percent of… Read more »
The convention is that if you invite somebody to a social event you are hosting, you pay. The problem is that there’s also a tradition that men do the asking, which means doing more of the paying. Really the solution should be for women to ask men out more – but offering to pay half certainly isn’t the end of the world, either.
I suspect many women find it easier to pay half than do half the asking.
Hugo, the women that earn less are married, they have half their husbands wage and work fewer hours in the tax farm. Women have more disposable income than men and spend more on personal and luxury items. Single women out earn single men by quite a margin in urban areas. How a couple decide to arrange their dates is a personal matter. I don’t want some preachy twelve stepper trying to tell men that they should all follow some tradition from the past. That’s the problem with a lot of feminists, living in the past. Not up to date with… Read more »
Hugo, single women out earn single men, the women that earn less than men are married women that chose to work fewer hours, but they have half of their husbands wage, so women have more disposable income than men and premise is false.
Where do you get your data? That is not true at all. Single women do not out earn single men.
It’s not exactly new sara the information was out in the mens rights community for sometime and the mainstream media covered it last year.
ht tp://www.usatoday.com/money/workplace/2010-09-01-single-women_N.htm
Did you even read the article… nay, did you even read the TITLE of the article you are citing. It has a lot of specifications; Must be in 20s. Must not be married. Must not have kids. Must have college degree. All the put together only describes a small subset of women. If you keep reading…. ” It isn’t true for all women in their 20s working full time — overall, they earn 90% of what all men in their 20s make — just for those who don’t marry or have kids.” Reading comprehension, get some please. Also, this has… Read more »
“Must be in 20s.
Must not be married.
Must not have kids.
Must have college degree.”
So these women should pay for the first date, right? Okay, good, because that’s pretty much the demographic where the vast majority of dating takes place. So why are men paying for these dates, again?
Right
Women that don’t marry and have kids (women that are married and have kids are generally subsidized by their partners wage) out earn their male peers, men that don’t marry or have kids, in large cities.
If there’s an expectation that different genders have different protocols about who pays, I’m kind of curious about how same-sex dates work this out. Maybe there’s a model there for those of us who date heterosexually. Anybody have any experience with this?
*raises hand*
The interesting thing about same-sex relationships are that you suddenly realize how many unspoken ‘rules’ there are in male/female relationships – who does the asking, who pays, who drives, who cooks, all that kind of thing. Unless it’s a couple with fairly rigid butch/femme kind of relationships, you can’t just fall into who is “supposed” to do thus-and-such; the assumption is generally that you split things evenly unless you decide otherwise.
The downside of this, unfortunately, is that any opposite-sex relationships you have thereafter are going to seem shot full of idiotic rules. 😉