Society pressures men to initiate sexual relationships, yet punishes them when they’re candid about their desires.
This is an article about men, but I’m going to begin by talking about women’s experiences. Many of us women go through our daily lives fending off unwanted male attention; most of us have worried about being attacked by men.
If I stroll down a city street or take public transit alone, I can count on being approached by men I don’t want to talk to. If I walk home after dark, I can’t help fearing assault—so much so that if a man or group of men come near me on the street, I feel my heart lodge firmly in my throat until they pass.
So it’s completely understandable that we’re all on high alert for predatory expressions of male sexuality. While certain situations and certain people deserve the designation “creep”—like, say, the guy who once leered at me as I walked out of the public library and whispered, “I can smell your pussy”—most guys really don’t.
The pressure put on men to be initiators, but to avoid seeming creepy or aggressive, leads to an unpleasant double bind. After all, the same gross cultural pressures that make women into objects force men into instigators. (How many women do you know who proposed to their husbands?)
So how can a man express his sexual needs without being tarred as a creep? After all, the point of promoting sex-positive attitudes is for everyone to be able to be open about their needs and desires, right?
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When I was 23 years old, I was still coming to terms with my S&M orientation, and so I posted to an Internet message board about how “illicit” desire was messing up my life. Soon, I received an email from a guy in my area. He accurately guessed the cause of my anxieties (“either you want some BDSM play, or you maybe want to add other partners into a relationship”) and offered to fulfill all my wicked, dirty lusts. In fairness, the guy actually referred to himself as creepy during our text-only conversation—but I still feel guilty that when I told the story to my friends, we all referred to him as “the creep.”
I obviously had every right to turn down my Internet Lothario. Still, I shouldn’t have called him a creep; all he was doing was being overt and honest about his desires, and he did it in a polite—though straightforward—way. If he’d emailed me with “Hey bitch, you obviously want me to come over and dominate you,” then that would have been impolite and unpleasant.
But he emailed me a quick and amusing introduction, then asked what I wanted. After a few rounds of banter, I called a halt, and he respected that. I think the word “creep” is too vague and prejudiced to mean anything anymore. But if I were willing to use the word, I’d say my Internet suitor was the opposite of a creep.
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Although I’ve become more aware of it recently, I think I’ve always had the sense that men are particularly vulnerable to the judgment of “creep.” Over a year ago, I wrote a series of blog posts on the problems of masculinity, and in Part 3 I noted that—unlike men—”I can be explicit and overt about my sexuality without being viewed as a creep.”
Of course, I could be labeled a slut, which could damage me quite badly. There’s a reason I do all my most explicit writing under a pseudonym. Feminists often say that men’s promiscuity is lauded while women’s is stigmatized, and one point of this argument is purely linguistic: “stud” is a complimentary word for a promiscuous man, while “slut” is a hurtful word for a promiscuous woman.
Besides, our culture hates sex, no matter who’s doin’ it—even vanilla, consensual, heterosexual, private sex between cute, white, married adults is hard for some folks to acknowledge.
But in fact, men aren’t merely enabled to be promiscuous—they’re pressured to be getting laid all the time. This influences situations ranging from huge communities devoted entirely to teaching men how to pick up women, to the tragically callous dismissal of the experiences of men who have been raped.
And while there’s immense cultural repression of all sexuality, there’s also a fair and growing amount of modern TV, movies and feminist energy that seek to enable female sluttitude in all its harmless, glorious forms. The stud vs. slut dichotomy is worth discussing, but it has one flaw: it entirely ignores the word “creep,” whose function appears to be restricting male sexuality to a limited, contradictory set of behaviors.
Feminist blogger Thomas Millar writes, “The common understanding of male sexuality is a stereotype, an ultra-narrow group of desires and activities oriented around penis-in-vagina sex, anal intercourse and blowjobs; oriented around cissexual [i.e., non-trans] women partners having certain very narrow groups of physical characteristics.” Men are supposed to be insatiable only within those bounds. Men who step outside them—for example, heterosexual men who are attracted to curvier women, or who like being pegged with a dildo in the butt—are either mocked or viewed with anxious suspicion.
Worse, men who talk a lot about their sexuality, or who make any slightly unusual move (like sending a friendly proposition over the Internet), can run afoul of the pervasive tropes around male sexuality: that it’s inherently aggressive, toxic, and unwanted.
Under these circumstances, mere semi-explicit conversations become fraught territory. A male, S&M-oriented friend of mine told me about a girl he once spoke to while volunteering at a large feminist organization. She started a conversation about how she was coming to terms with her queer identity; she no longer wanted to have sex with men, but with women. He said he could relate, and described his feelings about coming into his S&M identity.
The next day, he got a call from the intern coordinator telling him to get back in the closet. “Turns out what I thought was discussing who I was, came across as hinting that she should participate,” says my friend. “The thought never crossed my mind—she was, after all, telling me that she didn’t want to have sex with men. But the cultural constructs around the conversation intervened between what I was saying and what she was hearing.”
As one masculinity thread commenter named Tim observes: “The only way for a guy to guarantee that he won’t be called ‘creepy’ is to suppress entirely his sexuality, just like a woman can escape being called a slut by suppressing hers.”
Another commenter, Sam, notes that it’s often difficult for men to “realize that being sexually confident and assertive is not tied to politics,” and that some men feel so much anxiety they hire experts to coach them through just asking a strange woman where to find Internet access.
These anti-male stereotypes have an incredibly broad effect, and not just among individuals. Calls to censor porn, for example, are influenced not only by extreme claims that porn access increases rape (it doesn’t) but by feelings that mainstream porn expresses an unacceptable form of male sexuality.
It’s certainly true that the kind of sex represented in mainstream porn isn’t for everybody, which is why there are lots of other kinds of porn out there (including feminist porn). However, I’m reluctant to condemn any kind of consensual sex in itself, including consensual sex as represented in mainstream porn. Plus, as commenter iamcuriousblue claims, many condemnations of mainstream porn incorporate a ”view of masculinity itself as inherently hostile and dangerous” and a tacit claim that male sexuality “needs to be kept on a short leash, where men’s viewing of violent or pornographic media is restricted, either through community pressure or state action, lest the dumb beast of a man get the wrong ideas.”
If we’re worried about people learning the wrong things from mainstream porn, then we should be giving everyone unflinchingly detailed sex education so that everyone understands just how limited mainstream porn is. Men aren’t dumb beasts—no more than women are wilting flowers—and stereotypes are easily defeated by a complete picture of the world.
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I’ve got three suggestions for how we can all start taking down awful conceptions of male sexuality—and the word “creep” with them.
1) Sam summed it up best: “Accept male desire, and accept men’s word when they talk about it.”
Like most people, men want sex, and that’s not a bad thing. Like everyone, men deserve to feel as though their sexuality is hot, awesome, delicious, valuable, and can be pleasurable for all parties in a consensual situation. Just as women shouldn’t have to feel exploited when they have consensual sex, men shouldn’t have to feel like they’re exploiting someone when they have consensual sex. Just as more and more space is being made for forthright discussion of female sexuality, more and more space should be made for forthright discussion of male sexuality.
Of course there are inappropriate ways for men to express their desire, just as there are inappropriate ways for women to express their desire. For example, it’s not okay for people of any sex to continue hitting on someone after that person has clearly asked them to stop. It’s not okay for people in a position of power, like employers or clients, to use their position to harass or sexually intimidate people under their authority.
But these situations are a far cry from creating more dialogue in appropriate places—like gender-studies classes or blogs—about male sexuality. They’re also a far cry from giving men like my S&M friend the benefit of the doubt when they join conversations about desire.
2) “Male sexuality should be approached from the concept of pleasure rather than accomplishment,” writes machina, a blog commenter.
Linking sex to accomplishment rather than pleasure also leads to some men caring more about getting it done than their partners’ consent. Additionally, men are under so much pressure to get busy all the time that even when they’re having sex, their own pleasure may be less central than meeting the stereotype of how dudes are supposed to get laid. For some men, the stereotypes do represent their desires; for some, the stereotypes don’t work at all. A man who’s the top partner in anal sex with his girlfriend might be scoring big according to popular consensus—but if what he really craves is for her to peg him with a strap-on, then he’s not actually scoring at all. Even a guy who contentedly loves anal sex might have the chance at mind-blowing sexual paradise if he decided to risk something new, to think outside the box.
3) Which brings me to my last thought: Let’s work to discourage sexuality that’s actually predatory or non-consensual.
Obviously, most people aren’t rapists, and as HughRistik says: “I don’t think an individual man deserves to feel that his sexuality is toxic merely because he is a man and other men have displayed their sexuality in toxic ways.” But assault and harassment are real problems, causing real anxieties. (And not just for women. I’ve heard stories about how men’s boundaries are routinely ignored; one example is women who, while exploring naked fun with some happy gentleman, will initiate condomless sex without even asking if he’s cool with that.)
It’s incumbent upon all of us to discourage that kind of thing when we see or hear about it, no matter who it comes from. It’s also incumbent upon us to honor one another’s boundaries. But this is not a question of limiting or repressing male sexuality, and it shouldn’t be framed that way. It should be framed entirely as a question of consent, communication, and respect.
Thanks so much to all the commenters who have participated in my sprawling manliness threads: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, and The Followup. Particular thanks to those who have stuck with The Followup, which has over 1,200 comments and is still evolving!
© 2010 Independent Media Institute. All rights reserved. This piece originally ran on Alternet.org.
About Clarisse Thorn
Simple equations…
Sexual interest I reciprocate = flattering.
Sexual interest I don’t reciprocate = unpleasant.
Therefore…
Hot guys = confident.
Average guys = creepy.
It’s a vicious, nasty approach to dealings with men. It’s also very common.
You can see some examples of this approach in the comments section of the GMP piece on “Older Men Lusting After Younger Women.” Apparently it is really traumatizing to be asked out by someone you are not attracted to, and a man must have a realistic idea of his age and physique before ever attempting to speak to an attractive woman.
Women have the same problem. Nobody likes being hit on by someone they aren’t attracted to. Do you?
Being hit on by a woman who you think is “hot” = awesome!!!
Being hit on by a woman who you think is ugly = creepy! yuck! she must be sick/desperate/a whore!
Being hit on by an ugly male/or female should simply be flattering. Being hit on by someone you’re attracted to or you find to be very hot should simply be even more flattering.
We all have the fundamental ability, possibly right to ask out (in a decent/polite way) someone we find attractive and wish to date and they have the ability to reject or accept that. People need to simply let go of some of these silly “creepy” attitudes unless they’re actually acting creepy. It shouldn’t be creepy at all for anyone to hit on another person of a similar age range, it might be awkward but if they are ugly then simply give them a respectful rejection.
I don’t care if a girl or a guy hits on me as it’s flattering in my view. What offends me is HOW they do it, if they act like a creep then yes I’ll find them creepy, if I am underage and they’re considerably older than yes I’ll probably find it creepy, if I’m an adult and they’re an adult then any polite mannered date request will simply be flattering. The hardest part is figuring out how to let them down gently, if only we could all understand that because one person rejected you doesn’t make you ugly but it simply means personally they don’t wish to date you at that time for whatever reason.
People truly need to broaden their mind and control how they throw the creepy word around, if someone is being respectful and kind then they should be rewarded with a kind response and not made to feel like shit because you’re too caught up in yourself to realize that someone finds you attractive and doesn’t have to fit a very defined view of what is attractive. Is it really so hard to say yes or no?
Of course if they aren’t acting polite and decent then a good stern response is required, and I would hope both men and women will be taught in future to ask people out politely AND also learn how to take rejection well so we can avoid the other issues some people face such as fear of how they will act when you reject them.
tl;dr, Be nice and others will be nicer. The vicious and nasty approach simply creates men and women who are fearful, bitter, or angry at the sex they are attracted to and goes a long way in making people act like rude fools to each other. Everyone is at fault for allowing such negative behaviour to continue, stand up and stand against it so the dating game is actually fun for a lot more people.
Pure BS, only reasons A women says No:
1. Not attracted to you for some reason, looks, money, boring etc.
2. In a relationship.
3. Shy, lacking confidence.
If a woman is attracted to you she will say yes to the date and then get to know you.
Well said! My opinion is that many of us think with our emotions and shut off their brains. It’s easier to just react and much harder to think. When a news story is aired about someone accused of a crime, do you immediately conclude guilt? It seems more and more we rush into judgment and away from thinking. This has permeated our social scene. It has caused many to avoid contact with others lest they be judged in some negative way. Some have come to fear even having an opinion for fear of condemnation. Is it any wonder that many have hidden in cyberspace rather than risk direct social contact?
“Nobody likes being hit on by someone they aren’t attracted to. Do you?” I, for one, don’t mind it one bit. As Jun says, that as long as it is done in a polite respectful manner, you should view it as flattering. The person approaching you may have made a lot of effort to get up the nerve to even talk to you, let alone ask you out. Why not chat a bit, acknowledge that the person is searching for someone just like you are too, but that you don’t see them as a match. One thing that many women don’t realize is that the guy who is shy and nervous to talk to you is usually not a ‘creep’. The guy who often is a creep is the one who acts suave and debonaire, over-confident (yes a guy can have too much confidence – it is called arrogance), and if/when you reject him, moves on to the next woman without any human feelings whatsoever. I’m generalizing, of course, but sexual maturity means that you can deal with unwanted suiters respectfully, as long as they are respectful to you.
LIKE!
I generally agree, but the elephant in the room no one seems to be talking about it that it’s different for a woman to receive unwanted sexual attention than a man. It’s different because the man – in the great majority of cases – has no fear that rejecting a suitor, or being something less than completely clear that she has no interest, could lead to physical assault or some other negative consequence (later being accused of leading a guy on, etc.). I’m sure large majority of guys who work up the courage to approach do so without many ill intents and would respond with respect to being turned down respectfully. By a woman doesn’t know if you’re the guy who’s going to be an a–hole about it, right? So her guard’s more likely to be up when approached by a strange man.
None of this is meant to justify something other than a polite, respectful rejection – and certainly not labels like “creep” – but it’s naive to have this discussion without recognizing women have reasons for being discomforted by unwanted attention.
You went there? you are throwing around ‘Rape culture’ when its not relevant? Because that real sensitive to rape victims.
First up ‘Rape Culture (and I swear the term is losing value every time its chucked about willy nilly..) =/= ‘All men are rapists and even if it did it does not justify women stigmatising men.
Secondly the vast majority of rapists are Good Looking, Rich, Powerful or Popular men. Not the sorts of men who women usually label as Creeps, but the ‘Studs’.
We hear countless stories about football teams gang raping women but never the Chess club, why is that? Because disempowered men don’t rape. Empowered men that people look up to rape. That’s your Rape Culture right there.
Project much?
No one uttered the phrase “rape culture” until you just did. But you’re naive if you think women don’t have reason to be more sensitive to unwanted sexual advances than men.
Any support for your assertions that ” the vast majority of rapists are Good Looking, Rich, Powerful or Popular men” and “disempowered men don’t rape?”
I’ve spent the large majority of my career working in and around the criminal justice system, and my experience says you’re 100 percent wrong on both counts.
Football players rape. Chess club members rape. Rich guys rape. Poor guys rape. Handsome men rape, as do ugly guys.
You hear about football players more often because that’s a more sensational story than the average Joe who does the same thing. It says nothing about prevalence.
But maybe you’re aware of some data I’m not. Care to hook me up?
You may not have used the words but you were hinting at it. You are using the Gender Feminists argument that because some men are horrible to women it’s ok to be douchey to all men in return.
And my point which you ignored is that the men are socially elevated in some way, you can be poor and ugly and still be in a position were others look up to you. Men with power are more likely to rape because they know they can get away with it. Most men arrested for rape are first time offenders and sadly many rapes aren’t reported, and most rapes are committed by a very small percent of men.
Sure women should be wary of any strange man but the fact is the guy she reacts “Erg Creep!” to is less likely to be a rapist than the ‘cool guy’ she lets buy her a drink.
Reading is a skill.
In the initial post to which you responded, I said “None of this is meant to justify something other than a polite, respectful rejection – and certainly not labels like creep.”
How do you get from that ” because some men are horrible to women it’s ok to be douchey to all men in return?” You cannot, because I said the exact opposite.
Still waiting for a citation for all your rape stats.
“The guy who often is a creep is the one who acts suave and debonaire, over-confident (yes a guy can have too much confidence – it is called arrogance), and if/when you reject him, moves on to the next woman without any human feelings whatsoever.”
Que? This one don’t make much sense, Padre. Why would a self-confident guy get butthurt when rejected in an given instance? Rejection is a part of life, there’s no reason to let it ding your self-worth or identity, both of which should develop from internal, not external validation.
“Nobody likes being hit on by someone they’re not attracted to.”
Sure, but how do people respond to this? Of what I’ve seen, guys are usually like “ehh, not interested. but thanks, though!” at worst, they call them a slut behind their backs.
Of what I’ve seen, girls are often pushed away or offended by the approach. And from what I’ve personally experienced, I received death threats and security reports after telling a girl she has a cute smile.
Honestly, I would rather be called a slut or easy as a worst case, than be EXPECTED to make a move on the off chance she’s interested, and risk legal action if she isn’t.
And from what I’ve personally experienced, I received death threats and security reports after telling a girl she has a cute smile.
Assuming you’re not exaggerating… WTF? What is wrong with these women? They give the rest of us a bad name! I’m so sorry that happened to you.
This stuff happens sometimes << I was at a church dance one time in my teens, and a girl in my extended group of friends mentioned she was from Canada, and I was like "Oh, that's cool. I like Canadians," and that's literally all I said to her the entire night.
I didn't realize she'd publicly accused me of threatening to rape her because of that comment until her older brother approached me to ask why I'd threatened to rape his sister.
There is definitely not the same cultural treatment of that at all, the foremost reason being the stratified ratio of male to female initiators, others abound. Your comment is very dismissive of others’.
I have been hit by both gay’s and women. No matter what I always smile back, thanking them and reciprocate interest if im interested or sending them away (in a respectfull manner). No hard feelings from my side, unless they start kissing and touching me, in that case I call the doormen (im a DJ), and they take care of them.
Agree with Morgen, If the Guy is cute it’s flurting. If the Guy is average it is sexual harrasment
Also This is my take on the STUD vs SLUT debate: Men usually have to work at getting laid so when a men has sex alot he is viewed as a winner,stud,etc. The dude is a Player man, Don’t hate the player hate the game…
Most women unless thier screwing Brad Pitt or Tom Cruise, do not have to work that hard to get laid period. When hanging out at bars I’m Blue with envy when I see how easy it is for women to get sex but Remember ladies You are nothing special if a lot guys went you, CHEAP items have many buyers.
I have dated “age-inappropriately.” If you give it a little time, you get a sense of whether or not it’s okay to ask a woman out.
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you for voicing this out there, and for understanding and acknowledging a guy’s perspective!
I had to deal with this just last year. I made a move on a friend of mine. “I know this girl, she’s in theatre, works two jobs, and is taking a lot of classes, but still finds time to keep that beautiful smile on her face”.
I later received death threats from her friends, assaults in the cafeteria, and false reports saying I robbed, stalked, and who knows what else.
I already had trouble making a move in the first place. Now I feel like I’m expected to make a move, but that women will hold me at gunpoint unless I meet every one of their unspoken prerequisites. And that the moment I slip up, POW!
I don’t use the word “slut” to describe girls who make a move. Ever since the incident, the only girls I’ve dated have made moves on me. To me, the word “slut” more often refers to girls who sleep around a lot. It refers to a hypocrisy of sorts, because while they sleep around, the condemn us for thinking the same.
So to me, a true “slut” is the kind of girl who disrespectfully blows guys off for being “a pathetic annoyance”, and takes advantage of the fact that men fall for women quickly. These girls look down on men attraction to them, using it as a tool of sorts. I will always consider that a slut.
Man. I am just so discouraged to hear about that – the death threats and ganging-up-on that you experienced. It astounds me that some women behave like that.
The only man I have ever threatened was the boyfriend of one of my best friends who really was treating her like crap, stringing her along (she shared part of the blame for continuing to forgive him and go back to him), cheating on her, verbally and emotionally abusing her… I did really want to kick his ass.
But flirting? Approaching? Complimenting? I just can’t understand how some women react – OVERREACT – to men this way! Not to be cruel but I hope they’re ready to spend much of their lives alone if they are so hyper-sensitive to male attention that it really comes down to death threats. I mean, really. Death threats. WTF.
Sound like her and her friends were ‘special’ sorts and you were rather unlucky.
So what do you call a man who uses women in the same way? Is he still a stud?
There are some horrible women who mistreat men, there are horrible men who mistreat women, horrible women who mistreat women etc – let’s just call them horrible people.
How about you don’t use the word ‘slut’ at all, in any context. Reserving it for a particular group that you define is still just as chauvinist as using to describe a women who is (insert definition here).
Just like racially vilifying words, ‘slut’ is an oppressive term in any context. Believing in the concept of a slut is chauvinist in itself — it says a woman behaving in a certain way (however you define it) is to be marked differently to a man acting the same way.
I’m a woman and agree with what David Wise says:
October 5, 2010 at 2:35 pm
There’s something very ironic–and off-putting quite frankly–about a woman who’s so afraid of being attacked, yet enjoys BDSM. Women such as this scare me actually. I’m afraid of them accusing me of something that them would secretly enjoy. I’m worried of them projecting their fears and desires unto me.
For a person to consciously chose to hand over their power/sexual power is BDSM. To have someone take a person’s choice in their sex life/life is rape/assault/wrong. Only someone who is not self aware or possibly mentally ill, and not necessarily kinky, would accuse another of doing something negative to them that they say they did not want but really wanted secretly.
What the hell are “sexual needs”?
That’s like rape-apologist 101.
Only if you’re a man though, right?
What has rape got to do with this. Why are you so anti-sex and obsessed with rape? Are you a Teapublican?
ht tp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs
Please think before you type.
Seems like none of the posts told the honest truth. Well listen up you people. I will turn the question around and ask you all to explain why you demonize a woman for having a normal woman’s sexual desires and that is we don’t think about sex all the time like you men do. You men want sex sex sex all the time. Respect us when we do not want it all the time. You all don’t want to be nagged about conversation, so stop nagging us about sex. And yes, men do nag too. I’m just the only woman who will tell you all the truth And there is nothing wrong with us. It’s the way men and women were made. The women who tell you they want it all the time, are just lying to you all. They want to appear like they do. We kinda like the foreplay, but all the other stuff you all like is a bother to us. We just do it to go with the flow. We would rather go to lunch with our friens, get a massage, get a hair do, take a bubble bath, or go out to a ball. Really!!!!!
“we don’t think about sex all the time like you men do. You men want sex sex sex all the time” and “It’s the way men and women were made”
What a dangerous load of tripe. Stupid comments like this, that rely on some perverse biological essentialist view of our species, are so pervasive. They do not represent facts (never mind the ‘truth’).
Point of fact, some men and some women (and presumably some people who don’t neatly fit easily in that reductive dichotomy) like to think about/have sex and to be sexual most, if not all, of the time. Some women and some men (etc.) do not want to think about/have sex or to be sexual ever. The vast majority of people fall somewhere in between. That is the ancillary point to be drawn from this article. Sexuality includes not only what someone desires, but also how much, with whom, and where and why they want to fulfill those desires.
The only way to deal with the massive complexity this fact represents is by being open, honest, and engaged, individually and as parts of communities and societies. A great deal of the demonization that surrounds people and their sexuality has to do with fear. The same fear that prevents and inhibits any open dialogue surrounding sexuality. Maybe when we choose bravery in the face of our cultural fear of sex and sexuality (our own and in others) we will move past denunciations and recriminations.
Let me put in my two cents about the “sex sex sex” remark.
Let’s start with the status thing. This one isn’t an excuse, but a bit of background. How does media portray a virgin girl? Angelic. How does it portray a virgin guy? Pathetic, hopeless, weak, “should kill the character off because he is of no use to this world”. How is the girl who sleeps around portrayed? Slut. Dirty. The guy? Man’s man. Ladies’ man. I could go more into this, but not right now. But the idea is that women will be more likely to hide their sexual feelings, while guy will feel the need to flaunt it.
But in terms of actual thinking about it, the numbers are fairly even between men and women. but a big thing for men is that they simply are not complimented, pursued, and emotionally cared for nearly like women are.
Compliments? Even the average girls recieve, like, 2-3 per day. For many guys a compliment comes out one a week/month. Want to feel wanted in a relationship? Girls don’t tell. So basically, a girl sits and looks pretty, and gets offers all the time. If a guy doesn’t make a move, he’s basically single his whole life. Or at least has massively low self-esteem. In fact, the rates of approaches that guys deal with would probably drive most women into intense depression.
And between us guys, there isn’t a lot of intimacy of any sort. Much less what a relationship entails. Girls have all kinds of emotional connection with each other, and will alienate guys as “outsiders”. So we have little emotional or physical connections whatsoever.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MindMoodNews/men-susceptible-women-relationship-woes-study-finds/story?id=10877651
Simply put, we think about girls all the time because we’re socially deprived in a ton of ways based on what “being a man” is expected to be. Relationships provide basically all of that.
Not only that, guys are physical beings. What I mean is that if you tell a guy something, it doesn’t really mean all that much until it manifests in a physical interaction. Guys may yell, but won’t take it seriously until fists fly. To many men, sex is one of, if not the highest manifestation of physical, mental, and emotional intimacy.
Also, guys have hormonal cycles, too. Girls get extremely horny at different times of month? It’s more mild for us, but it’s all the freaking time.
And finally, girls have the option of “not being interested right now”, because when they decide they’re interested again, there is already some guys to choose from. In fact, if she wants sex, all she has to do is ask, and the guys come to her. If guys pass an opportunity of a decently attractive girl making a move on them, they have to take it or stay single for a long time.
I don’t know, man. I think women have been lying to you. I would consider myself an average looking woman and tell you what, I cannot just sit there, “look pretty”, and get asked out. In fact, no one has ever asked me for my number or even if I was single, or asked me out. Ever. True, I’m only 23, but this includes college, which is basically a humping free-for-all. I occasionally do get compliments, but it’s from women/old men, usually on my outfit (I like to dress up at times). So, uh, don’t know where all these women you’re talking about are. Life must be awesome for them!
I’m not saying men have it easier than me. But can we please stop saying that every woman who isn’t obese/hideous get’s “OMG SO MUCH ATTENTION” because it’s not true. That is how you perceive it, but it hasn’t been my reality, nor the reality of the average-looking women I am friends with. Several people have insisted I am in denial about this, but I don’t know how I can be in denial about my own life.
Wanda Do you go to a liberal arts college they usually have a lot more women then men, but Weber is right on so many levels. Maybe your putting out signals that you don’t want to be bothered. Try looking in the mirror and find a few tight body flattering outfits then go to your local bar which usually has 4 guys to 1 girl ratio then write back. Unless your BFU(butt F*&king Ugly ) If we go out togather I guantee guys will flurt with you before women will flurt with me, and I’m a decent looking guy. I’m 41 and have been to countless bars, nightclubs and Colleges so I am speaking from life experience… Guys my Advice go to any liberal arts college ratios usually 60 / 40 female / male. or try Ukraine.
“Wanda Do you go to a liberal arts college they usually have a lot more women then men”
And us guys who are there have had all the stuff we have talked about here rammed down our throats to the extent that we are too scared to make a move…
Okay, so what you’re saying is that there have to be factors that contribute to getting asked out every day. You have to be a science/math major, you have to be approachable, you have to wear a tight dress and go to a bar. How is this not in support of what I’m saying? People act as if women just walk around and get asked out. If you are a computer science major with big boobs who likes Dungeon and Dragons then yeah, I’m sure you get a hell of a lot of attention. I’m not saying that in certain walks of life, average-looking women get no attention. But I exist beyond the art classroom ya know. I walk around. I don’t live in an all-female colony or something. My college was huge (state college) and co-ed. In a city. With a plethora of men from all walks of life. I honestly think it’s a matter of bias confirmation.
Also, no, I’ll pass on the bar. There is nothing I’d rather do less than go to a bar, and get hit on by drunkards. Which may contribute to the “not getting asked out” part, but that still supports my point. You can just be an average woman existing and get asked out. There have to be other contributing factors, be it the place or company you keep. It does not depend solely on being female and “not ugly”.
Also, as an English major, my major was about 50/50 male/female. In fact, there were more men in most of my writing classes. Go figure.
*can’t just be an average woman and get asked out
Dear Ms Truth For Real
It’s unfortunate that your personal experiences with men seem very negative. But you don’t represent what all men or all women want, you can only speak for yourself.
Rather than condemnation of all of us men as only wanting sex, sex, sex!, consider how unfair and hostile your comments sound. You have a right to your opinion, but you do not have a right to condemn an entire gender. Exactly how do you believe such negative hostility serves to make things better ? If you really want to express the truth, at least do so by admitting that your experiences are limited to yourself and/ or your friends.
Ms Truth for Real,
At least someone here is honest. Men and women are just different, and men generally have higher sex drives. Many women can take or leave it, but for men sex is like water. Much of the difference is due to biology.
Men are also a lot less sexually discriminate. Men dont get this, hence the why-wont-she-fuck-me complaints. The only way to stop these complaints is for every woman of child bearing age to sleep with every man who comes along no matter how old, portly, unattractive, or generally unlikable he may be. Men want their sex drives to be seen as good but see female sex drives as a nuisance.
Its not that that male sexuality is demonized, many men dont like women telling it like it is. For example, I have come here and said men mostly are looking for quick sex. Here come the complaints. A couple weeks later a man says the same thing albeit nicer. “Thats so true, bro!!!”
Like if I say much of the time men want tovhave sex so he can look good in the eyes of others, that would be demonizing. Meanwhile men will come here and say they need to have sex bwcause society looks down on men who dont have sex, thats ok and jusy being honest. Hmmmm….
Mens desires will be seen as bad and predatory as long as many men are sexually predatory. Despite the protetations otherwise, many men are what women would consider predatory. They will lie or say what they need to to get sex. If a woman does something similar to get in a mans wallet, I bet that would be considered predatory…
Im not saying men only want sex, im saying men primarily want sex.
Stop pushing this sexist nonsense. Just because someone else agrees with your minority opinion does not mean they are honest; it may just mean you are both equally wrong.
“Men care primarily about sex” is as moronic a thing to say as “women care primarily about money”, and it’s compounded from stupidity into bigotry when you claim that any man/woman who claims otherwise must be lying.
The rest of your arguments are straw men. If people disagree with you but agree with other posters, it may be that those other posters are actually saying something different. Without specifics we can’t tell, so it’s just a whine. “Wah, why do you listen to other people but not to me?” Well, maybe because they aren’t wrong and bigots?
I’m not aware that anyone has argued that predatory men do not exist, or even that they are not common; you’d have to be living under a rock to think that male predatory sexual behaviour is not a serious problem. That isn’t the same as arguing that it’s a problem if their behaviour leads to a generalized prejudice against male sexuality.
My opinion is only minority on this forum and maybe other similar male forums. My views are pretty common amongst women in the real world.
But WHY is it fine for a man to say the same things? If I say it its bigotry. Man says same thing on this very site and men agree. Is it because im not in the boys club? You didnt address my post, youjust came with namecalling. The best I can gather from your response is that the problem is more about the messenger (me) than the message, which just proves my point.
And I have been saying the same things as men here albeit more crass. The message is the same though mine often comes across as meaner, and ive admitted that before on this site. Like men have admitted a desire for quick transitory sexual experiences. Men agree. Than I say lot of the time men want to screw a girl real quick with no commitment, enter problem. Granted I was more crass than the male poster, the message is either true or its not.
If many women have the same general issues with men, how could it not be seen as a general problem?
I meant to say my views may be a minority amongst women here, but its not amongst women in the real world.
I have not called you any names whatsoever. Saying that your opinions are wrong, stupid, or bigoted addresses the opinions, not the person. You claim that I haven’t addressed your point, but this is not true. You made two contentions: That men care primarily about sex, and that you are pilloried for saying so while men are not.
I refuted the first contention by calling it nonsense and comparing it to similar ignorant statements one could make about women.
I responded to your second contention by pointing out that, without a specific example – for instance, a case of the same people applauding a man for saying the same thing as you while condemning you for doing so – it was just a whine. If you want me to take your complaint seriously you need to demonstrate that the thing you are complaining about actually exists.
I provided a retort to both of your points; you have ignored mine and instead claimed I am picking on you for being a girl.
Grant:
“Well maybe because theyre arent wrong and bigots?”
Hmmm looks like namecalling to me.
Um, did you not read my second post? I did give examples of me giving the same message as a man. Its fine for them, but not for me. You still havent explained why its cool for men to say but not me. Or why its demonizing when a woman says it but the truth when a man does.
No, my assertion was not moronic. Its biology. Its 2013. I think its safe for everyone to be honest. Men mostly want to know women in a physical way. That isnt saying men never want love.There is a good reason the Helen Fishers of the world say, “Men find love looking for sex.” Men and women are just different.
If saying that someone didn’t say bigoted things because they aren’t bigots is the closest you can find to me calling you names, then I think my point is made.
You haven’t given any examples. You’ve just reiterated your bald claim that it happens and called that an example. You haven’t quoted a single message, linked a single post, or named a single name.
Grant;
Once again, did you read my posts? I gave examples. YOU are more than welcome ro look them up. I dont have time to go back and search all those posts. There are a lot of posts on this site, if you havent noticed.
Still havent answered my question, why is it demonizing when I say it, but fine for a man to say it? Hmmm???? In fact, ive raised this point before here.
I can read between the lines. You were calling me a bigot. I dont care though. I still want you to address my point, which you have not.
No you did not. As I said, you simply repeated your claims and called them examples. Without names, quotes, or links they are not examples.
If you don’t have time to make your case, then you cannot expect anyone to accept it. It is not my job to go back and make your argument for you.
I think I’ve been quite clear that it’s sexist regardless of who does it, and I have challenged you to show where you have been treated unfairly so that I can condemn it. You refuse to do so.
If you don’t care about being called a bigot, why do you complain so vociferously about it?
I call out both men n women showing bigotry. Is calling out bad behaviour now considered “calling them names”?
Archy:
Hmmm…Maybe I should pull up some posts!
I dont care about being called a bigot. It is silly to call me a bigot for saying things men say with little controversy. That is what I have a problem.
Apparently, the problem isnt that its false. The problem comes in when the messenger is female. Then it is ‘demonizing.’
I dont see what the big deal about women talking about men and their sex drives. Its 2013 lets jyst be honest with ourselves.
“I dont care about being called a bigot. It is silly to call me a bigot for saying things men say with little controversy. That is what I have a problem.”
SOME men say, and they would be bigots too.
“Apparently, the problem isnt that its false. The problem comes in when the messenger is female. Then it is ‘demonizing.’”
It IS false, not all men are the same so it’s false to talk about them as such. Men don’t care PRIMARILY about sex, it’s a primary concern though for many along with other concerns, Thing of it as a group of concerns in the primary category instead of 1 concern winning out. For me personally My primary concerns are Companionship, trust, love, SEX, etc. I want the whole package, not just sex.
Grant:
I dont think men are lying. I think a lot of men have some very strange form of denial.
They find it particularly offensive when a woman points it ouy. This is called demonizing their sexuality. Its more like denial.
I thonk men want women to view them favorably not as beings who want women mostly for sex (even though most of the time men are looking mostly for sex partners).
This isnt true jusy on the ney, either. Men spend exobitant amounts of time looking for sex, much more than for finding a ltr, but men find it very offensive when a female points it out. Mindboggling.
Lets just be honest!
I see that men have lots of sex toys. They are people turned into sex toys. Strippers, prostitutes, pornography. Try finding ready access to those for a woman’s preferences. Women tend to need a sense of safety and trust to achieve orgasm. Perhaps women who don’t feel safe or able to relax with their partner have more need for extra aid.
So if a married couple owns a vibrator that they like to use when they’re getting intimate, then it’s because the husband puts the wife on edge somehow, or because he’s inadequate in bed?
That’s a ridiculous assessment.
Why Do We Demonize Men Who Are Honest About Their Sexual Needs?
This is a very easy question to answer.
Society cares about women’s needs not men’s. This is true for both men and women at a macro level and reflects men’s second class status.
Men are the protectors of women and children. Women are the protectors of animals.
Great article. if only we could all realize that respect and honesty are the best way. if only we could all agree to be honest about what we want, but in a respectful way. everybody could say what they want, the other party could either take them up on it, or respectfully decline, and we can all get on with our day without labelling each other.
Unfortunately, there are disrespectful people (both male and female) who don’t take no for an answer, no matter how polite the “no” was, or who are rude to people making an honest, respectful effort to get to know them. But hopefully enough of us will be brave and take a stand for honesty and respect.
Men don’t have sexual needs. Nobody has sexual needs. We have sexual wants, strongly felt desires, drives…but not “needs”. If you say that men need to have sex, you are implying that people (women) need to have sex with men. Which is objectively pro-rape. Why a “feminist” is advocating implicitly pro-rape views is beyond me.
What IS it with radfems and this obsession with playing word games? It’s really disheartening that the people who best understand the pervasiveness of rape culture are completely clueless about how it works.
Nobody reads “needs” this way except you. That you make the psychotic leap of logic from “a person has a need” to “need means uncontrollable compulsion” to “uncontrollable compulsion means other people are obligated to indulge that compulsion” says nothing about the author’s views and everything about you feeling that you have the right to silence someone by telling them what their own views are. You sound like an Ayn Rand follower.
Yes, many people have sexual needs. Many do not. Many men need sex with women. Many do not. Of the men who do need sex with women, they also have a moral obligation to control that need (which can be done, but comes at a cost regardless of whether the need is being satisfied or not). Saying that the need exists does not lead to the conclusion that women are obligated to meet that need or that rape can be justified. Only you believe that.
Notice that I kept using the word need, to remind you that you don’t have the right to tell other people what their views are or to proscribe the discussion by telling people what words they can or can’t use. Epithets are one thing. But telling people they can’t use a certain term to describe something so abstract as sexual needs simply isn’t your place. You haven’t solved any problems or done anything to help women by playing word games. Grow up. The patriarchy laughs its head off at your pathetic hand-wringing.
Well said.
It would probably better and more precise to say that many men have in some limited sense of the term a need for “consensual sex” rather a need for “sex.” However to say that there is a direct correlation between saying that men need sex and an implicitly pro-rape stance is logically flawed. Men may in some sense of the term need sex but there are many kinds of sex and not all forms of sex can fulfill that need. For the overwhelming majority of men consensuality is an essential part of a sexually satisfying experience. For those who have some kind of distinct desire for a non-acceptable form of sexuality such as rape/pedophilia/bestiality I do not think it is relevant whether we say that those people are in need of those kinds of sex because they are unacceptable whether or not we call them “needs.”
“Consensual sex” is redundant. If there is no consent, it’s not sex, it is rape – that’s the definition.
I agree with the first part, but the second part lost me.
That’s right, sex is not a “need” in the sense of being required for individual survival, like water, food, warmth, and air to breathe. Desire can feel so compelling and so overwhelming that it sure feels like a need, and it may be detrimental to one’s (mental ) health to go without sex completely, but that doesn’t mean it’s a need.
Be that as it may, there should be nothing wrong with calling a man’s sexual desires “wants.” It shouldn’t reduce their legitimacy by one bit to say that they are desires or preferences or likes or turn-ons. Calling them needs seems to imply that if they were “just wants and not needs,” so therefore the man is not really entitled to express his likes, or if he does so he’s just being selfish.
By the same token, it’s not necessarily “pro-rape” to say that a man has sexual needs. It could be used that way, but just because a man says he needs something doesn’t automatically mean he is entitled to it or that other people are obligated to give it to him. When I say I need food, that doesn’t mean I’m demanding that the rest of society give me food.
I’ve researched the internet for several years. Yes, years. Looking for an article that stated simply and intelligently that men had the same sexual rights as women to be sexually active in the way that feel fits their own needs. I never found that article until I came across this.
The problem is that we need more articles like this that come from more sources that are more credible. Clarisse Thorn once wrote in a post that the first time she was flogged she had no idea that it was coming or how painful it would be and she was speaking positively and approvingly of the experience. But that just creates the implicit message that only someone who is extremely accepting of male desire can assert that men have the same sexual rights as women.
So I think it is absolutely necessary that many many articles on many sources expressing a similar range of opinions that are written her. I don’t know why this hasn’t happened yet but I recently submitted an article to the GMP about looking at breasts (it’s a good thing not a bad thing) which I hope gets published.
I found this article through a friends link on FB-lol. Wow, a powder keg, a trend I see throughout many of this site’s posts, which is a good thing. The author’s views are interesting, the comments, some of which I would classify more as “reactions” then true commentary, even more interesting. The reality is and valid, credible statistics support this, the average American is not nearly as promiscuous and sex centric as the media and this article would have us believe. In fact, even the most liberal studies (liberal in terms of the controls used, not a political designation) puts the total amount of lovers a person has at median average of 25-30 partners over a lifetime. The more statistically accepted middle of the road samples have the number at half of that. So how is this relevant to this article? I just dont think people take this nearly as seriously as this article would have us believe. Or maybe a better way to put it is, unless a male or female is acting significantly outside the societal norm, I doubt the guys are as innocent or the women are as judgmental as this piece might suggest. And I dont think that makes American’s prude as implied, I think its just a cultural reality at this point in time.
So one would assume by my tone, that Im very conservative and perhaps, sexually conservative. Not even remotely true. One of my favorite films is The Secretary, which I view as more of a love story then a story about demeaning women. And Ive never really had super strong reactions in real life, from that view. Im average looking, 49 and successful slightly above the median average. I have an average bod that occasionally I get in shape enough to be considered a decent bod. Ive had a fair amount of lovers, but really started to chill out in my 40′s. Ive dated gorgeous women to average women. Meaning, I lived a lot of life. As well, I have very conservative friends as well as very liberal friends. So have these friends dubbed me creepy? No. I briefly dated a woman significantly under my age, so did I get “creepy” then? A little but it felt creepy, thus why it didnt last long. She’s a doll and we’re great friends, but yeah- not again. For the most part, though, my friends all accepted that relationship when I was in it.
My point is this, sure, guys “can” get a bad rap for no valid reason, as women can for any number of reasons, too. But by in large, if you conduct yourself in a respectful way, if you’re a decent person, I find society rather forgiving of one’s quirks, whatever they may be. Certainly the more fringe you get, the less you will be accepted. I dont agree with that reality, in fact, I think its very hurtful and wrong. But again, its a small percentage of people. One guy can chat with a particular girl, talk very candidly about sex and be fine. Same guy, another girl, not so much. Hopefully, the guy has enough common sense to pick up basuc cues as to what a Green Light looks like vs a Red Light, when talking about sex. Its not a big drama, its life, nothing more.
“The stud vs. slut dichotomy is worth discussing, but it has one flaw: it entirely ignores the word “creep,” whose function appears to be restricting male sexuality to a limited, contradictory set of behaviors.”
Actually, I think the female equivalent of being called “creep” is closer to “crazy” than to “slut.” I usually hear women call men creeps when a woman feels a man has violated her boundaries in some way. Similarly, the term I have heard men use most often to describe a woman who has violated a man’s boundaries (e.g. by pursuing a man who does not want to be pursued by her, or by expressing a sexuality/ sexual preference that the man finds repulsive) is “crazy.”
I do agree, though, that there are still significant differences in the connotations of these terms; calling women “crazy” when they violate men’s boundaries seems to express less of the feeling of violation than does calling men “creepy” when they violate women’s boundaries. However, the term “crazy” does women a huge disservice by implying they should not be taken seriously and taking away some of the agency in their expression of sexuality.
(Side note: Women are very often called “crazy” for many other reasons as well, such as for expressing reasonable emotions in response to being treated poorly. Also, please excuse the hetero-normativity in this response – it was just for the sake of being concise.)
I honestly hate it when cougars come onto me seriously I’m into women my age and BDSM not granny and some wine and rose nonsense
This is a really interesting article and great website, and although I attract my fair share of ‘creepy’ attention I definitely hear the plight of men who are stereotyped as much as women.
However, one point which I really didn’t like in the article were your comments about pornography. Firstly your reference was limited and itself referenced only one study. This isn’t enough to declare that pornography doesn’t lead to rape, there are many arguments and studies on the opposite side which should have been explored. There are many factors contributing to the statistics quoted, and the USA isn’t the only place people can view porn.
What porn does (and I’m talking about the majority marketed to straight males, yes there is a wide variety including feminist) is objectify women (that is, makes them comparable them to objects). When you view someone as object-like it is easier to justify violence against them.
Furthermore, although porn as a concept sounds great, there are alarming statistics about the incidence of sexual assault and people who work in the sex industry, really alarming, some claim up to 95% of sex workers experiencing sexual assault. So really, while porn sounds nice, you have to ask yourself what went into the production.
And lastly, pornography often depicts unrealistic sex, unrealistic body expectations for men and women (adults are SUPPOSED to have pubic hair) and contributes to a rather new phenomenon where young girls in particular disassociate their desire with their sexual pleasure and instead link it to how they look.
I realise that wasn’t the focus of the article, and I genuinely think it is unfortunate that men can feel this negativity about their sexuality, but your comments about porn were generalised and inaccurate.
Paula complains that Clarisse only referenced one study, while herself referencing no studies at all, just a vague appeal to a large body of evidence on the other side. There’s no way to say conclusively that no such evidence exists – it might simply be evidence I’ve never heard of – but in my experience every single one of these studies has been deeply flawed, from hypothesis (“does pornography lead to sexual violence” with no adequate definition of ‘pornography’), to methodology (“we asked convicted rapists in jail whether they viewed porn, 80% of them said yes”) to conclusion. The fact that many people and groups are strongly motivated to demonise pornography does not mean that these studies should be dismissed out of hand, but it does mean these sort of results cannot be accepted uncritically.
Her argument for the plausibility of the ‘porn leads to rape’ conclusion is that pornography ‘objectifies’ women and objectification makes violence more palatable. Dehumanisation does make it easier for people to contemplate violence toward the dehumanised. However, the use of the term ‘objectification’ to mean ‘dehumanisation’ is misleading; it allows people to conflate a focus on the object-qualities of a person with a rejection of their subjectivity.
This is clearly not true. Pornography covers a broad range of subjects, and the vast majority of them do not deal with the dehumanisation of women. One might argue that the minority of subjects which do relate to dehumanisation are overrepresented in mainstream pornography; I would not comment on such an argument either way without some sort of statistical evidence to hand. Even pornography which deals in dehumanisation and degradation relies upon and often emphasises the idea of the women involved as thinking, feeling individuals; without that, there is nothing to degrade.
The majority of other pornographic subjects depict women as enthusiastic participants, interested in and desiring of sex – albeit in a simplistic and unrealistic way. While there is porn which, if not viewed in the context of a fantasy, might encourage the viewer to regard women as less than human, it belongs to one or two very specific niches, and is neither comprehensive nor representative of pornography as a whole.
The statistic about the porn industry cannot be taken in isolation. The stigma associated with pornography is more dehumanising than any pornographic script; many people regard porn workers as prostitutes, and regard the consent of prostitutes to be inherently less valuable than that of non sex workers – and thus, less necessary. When Sasha Grey is unable to read to elementary school children because she is considered ‘unclean’, it’s not hard to see that she and people like her are being dehumanised.
Paula’s comments about the “unrealistic” bodies of porn stars seem indicative of a particular type of prejudice. Porn stars *are* real people. They are neither representative nor comprehensive of real people, but they are a particular subset of real people. Should other body types be represented in pornography? Yes, and they are, depending on where you look. Prevalence is a concern, but again a statistical matter. But concerns about the content and breadth of pornographic themes are moot if your stance is entirely anti-porn.
Adults are not SUPPOSED to have pubic hair; that is not a statement of fact, but a moral assertion that would be at home in Leviticus. Adults grow pubic hair, and that is as far as the facts go. Whether people wish to shave it, keep it, trim it or dye it with rainbow stripes is entirely their affair. The same goes for whether people wish to consensually view those people naked.
The phenomenon of young women being disassociated from their own pleasure in favour of their appearance does not strike me as a new one; it seems to me to be a fundamental problem of patriarchal societies which treat women as desirable chattels, who are expected to secure their economic future by being desirable. It would be easy to link it to traditions such as FGM in other cultures, and the general practice of subordinating female pleasure to male desire. It’s a problem, but to link it to porn specifically is to ignore the entire context in which it occurs.
Paula accuses Clarisse of making inaccurate generalisations, but I find that Paula’s comment consists of nothing but generalisations, asserted without evidence, and promoting old prejudices which have caused visible and measurable harm to countless individuals.
“we asked convicted rapists in jail whether they viewed porn, 80% of them said yes”
So a lower percentage than non felons then?
I was with you, up until the point that you said “Calls to censor porn, for example, are influenced not only by extreme claims that porn access increases rape (it doesn’t) but by feelings that mainstream porn expresses an unacceptable form of male sexuality.”
I think this stems from a misunderstanding of and blatant bias against some of the feminist criticisms against pornography. I too am a member of the BDSM community (bondage and pain play), and I can understand the view that seemingly “violent” or BDSM related erotic material is misunderstood. I can also understand that simply hard f*cking and aggressive sex is misunderstood. However, I still maintain my criticism of pornography.
Pornography legitimizes and encourages rape, not because it includes BDSM or simple aggression, but because a lot of it depicts women being raped or having things sexually happen to her that she doesn’t want. Often times things like “no”, “not that”, “not here”, or a very timid and scared “please don’t” are said by the woman, until the guy persists enough that she starts saying yes and screaming in orgasm. In the little dialogue there is, men are depicted not merely as aggressors, but as predators who can‘t control themselves. If anything, porn is a part of the problem you were outlining. It severely limits and restricts the scope of male sexual expression, and it pardons real abusive behavior.
It contributes to rape culture because over 90% of porn star women are objectified by having to wear high heels in every video, tolerate or even pretend to enjoy unwanted behavior, and have their bodies surgically altered and bleached. Many of these women are also physically infantilized or made to look underage.
Another feminist criticism of porn is that it ruins relationships, when one partner becomes distant because they are too tied up with their own addictions and avoid real intimacy. The reason is that pornography is commercially designed to be so addictive in the first place, rather than being designed to create mutual pleasure in a relationship. If porn were created by common people, it might reflect mutual desire and would not be commercially driven to maximize profit. But because it is not created by common people, the vast majority of it instead aims to isolate people (usually men) in an unrealistic fantasy world that reinforces sexist standards of intimacy and privilege, while also reinforcing heteronormative gender roles both in straight and gay partnerships. This ruins women’s relationships as well as gay relationships, and it also undermines the self-esteem of the “feminine” one (usually a woman) in the relationship.
I would say that rape-y sexual depictions in pornography are a glorification of an unacceptable, unhealthy, and immature form of sexuality (particularly seducing to males, but also “butches” in gay partnerships) that is very damaging.
While censorship might not be the answer, I do feel that porn contributes to our rape culture. And anything that contributes to our rape culture, contributes to increases in sexual assault… whether that can be statistically quantified or not. It is a qualifiable accuracy, and those truths are important too.
As I said in my earlier post, “pornography covers a broad range of subjects, and the vast majority of them do not deal with the dehumanisation of women.” What you’re describing is one specific form of pornography, not pornography itself.
Your description also sounds less like Redtube and more like Mills & Boon. The fantasy of being forced at first and then starting to enjoy it, and even the fantasy of men being animalistic and unable to control themselves, seems to be more common among women than men; both revolve around the conflicted experience of the woman and the attitude of the men toward her. Most pornography aimed at men depicts enthusiastic consent and lacks this kind of emotional complexity.
We don’t have to discuss this in a vacuum. Right now I’m looking for examples of the porn you describe on Redtube and other mainstream porn sites, and while I’m sure there is plenty of “fantasy rape porn” out there, I’m having trouble finding it. Virtually all of the videos here seem to depict enthusiastic consent. I even did a search for “forced” and got only a dozen variations on “[stage name] Likes It Rough”. The closest I’ve been able to find so far have been one or two fantasy BDSM scenarios, such as “cop and convict”.
Which seems to suggest that the kind of rape-themed pornography you describe is more of a niche interest.
>>>If anything, porn is a part of the problem you were outlining. It severely limits and restricts the scope of male sexual expression, and it pardons real abusive behavior.
The idea that porn “severely limits and restricts the scope of male sexual expression” is clearly untrue. There’s a lot of very boring porn, but there’s also a lot of niche porn which provides men with a way to explore body types and sex acts that they would not necessarily be comfortable exploring in real life. For example a lot of young men are raised with a horror of large women, gay sex, transexuals and so on. Porn and internet porn specifically allows these men to explore things outside their normal range of sexual experience in a safe way.
Does that mean porn is a comprehensive system of sexual education? No, but I think we should give its consumers some credit for understanding that these are staged performances and not, with the exception of some amateur works, documentary depictions of everyday sexual experience.
>>>It contributes to rape culture because over 90% of porn star women are objectified by having to wear high heels
The idea that wearing high heels makes one into an object is frankly surreal. Other than mannequins specifically designed to wear clothes in lieu of people, what kind of object wears high heels exactly?
At least some porn actresses insist on wearing high heels at work so that they don’t have to touch the floor of the porn set with their bare feet.
The contrast between “forced to wear heels for objectification purposes” and “wears heels because she doesn’t want to go barefoot” is emblematic of an anti-porn rhetoric which refuses to admit the possibility of any agency on the part of pornographic actresses.
Take the “unwanted behaviour” line. If you’re saying that the women in question are being raped on set, then say so in so many words. Be clear about what you mean. If that’s ever the case then it’s a criminal matter – I don’t think there’s any grounds for disagreement there. But I don’t think that’s what you’re saying. I think what you’re actually trying to do there is to minimise and devalue the actress’s consent – implying that if she’s having sex for a film, she’s probably not enjoying it, and therefore her consent doesn’t matter.
Regarding cosmetic surgery, fetish model Bianca Beauchamp argued it was silly to applaud people who work out in the gym to look good and then criticise people who get breast implants as well. You don’t have to share her opinion, but it would be polite to at least acknowledge that she has one.
Conversely, I’ve heard that flat-chested porn actresses are unable to sell their work in Australia because their natural bodies are considered “physically infantilized” by the government.
Porn actresses are not passive objects to which these things ‘just happen’. They seek out jobs, they sign contracts, they consent to sex, and they make choices about their bodies. They are human beings, and the people who complain the most loudly about them being ‘objectified’ too often seem to be the first to dehumanise them.
>>>Another feminist criticism of porn is that it ruins relationships, when one partner becomes distant because they are too tied up with their own addictions and avoid real intimacy.
If you’ve ever been in love, it will be immediately obvious to you how categorically absurd this claim is. Pornography is designed to satisfy narrow sexual needs. It’s never going to be a substitute for cooking a meal for my wife and eating together, talking for hours over coffee, or any form of genuine intimacy.
If a man is withdrawing from his relationship and retreating into porn, that suggests porn is being scapegoated for genuine problems in the relationship. To blame the porn and pretend that pictures and masturbation can substitute for a healthy relationship perpetuates the myth that men only care about sex, and ignores the possibility that he might have other relationship problems which he perhaps finds it hard to talk about.
>>>The reason is that pornography is commercially designed to be
That’s a lot of buzzwords. Do you have any actual evidence that porn is designed this way or has these effects? Or that the makers of porn have the kind of criminal genius implied?
You do make an interesting point about how porn can better reflect real desire by being made by real people, but the way you make that point suggests you are ignorant of how mainstream amateur porn is, and how often consumers express a strong preference for it over more commercial offerings.
>>>I would say that rape-y sexual depictions in pornography are a glorification of an unacceptable, unhealthy, and immature form of sexuality (particularly seducing to males, but also “butches” in gay partnerships) that is very damaging.
At least you qualified your objection to a particular type of porn here. In my experience the biggest fans of rape-fantasy pornography have been women, but that is of course strictly anecdotal. It is however consistent with the popularity of Twilight, 50 Shades and so on.
Men, on the whole, don’t like rape or rapists. What’s seductive about the idea of having sex with a woman who isn’t enjoying it? In a culture which constructs male sexual prowess as ‘the ability to satisfy a woman’ isn’t rape a profound form of impotence?
>>>While censorship might not be the answer, I do feel that porn contributes to our rape culture. And anything that contributes to our rape culture, contributes to increases in sexual assault…
So you’ve drawn a logical chain between your feelings about porn and the actual real-world incidents of rape. The problem with that is that any breaks in the chain render the entire chain meaningless. If your feeling is wrong, and porn as a whole does more to undermine rape culture than it does to promote it (which may be the case even if we accept that a certain rapey genre of porn promotes it); if the effect is too small to produce an actual increase, and so on.
A particular weak link is your belief in ‘rape culture’ as a single object within our culture. Judges who go easy on rapists because their victims were “dressed like sluts” are part of rape culture. Romance novels which normalize rape as a means of seduction are also part of rape culture. But they are two different things and they do different things.
If the romance novels are read by women who know that they are just fantasies and would never want to be treated that way in real life, their existence might not lead to an increase in rapes. The judge, on the other hand, is explicitly and publicly sanctioning the rape of a certain type of woman, which seems more likely to produce an increase in sexual assault. We can call both of these things ‘rape culture’ but it’s important to understand that is just an umbrella term for different elements of culture with different effects, and different mechanisms by which those effects occur.
Also, two unmentioned things in regards to my last comment:
1) The reason it works (porn industries creating addiction), is because when they can’t get this fantasy in the real world, they habitually return to the porn and help the company to achieve it’s financial goal.
2) In the porn dialogue, it also depicts women as being “unrapeable”, because even if she says no, she secretly wants it and is only teasing.
There’s something that really annoys me about the whole “creep is a word women use to police male sexuality” (I know that’s not really what you’re saying, but I’ve heard that said a lot). The fact is the words “creep” and “creepy” are really used for anything that makes someone uncomfortable. Sometimes it can be a good and justified thing, ie a warning that someone isn’t safe, but sometimes it can come from prejudice. Often disabled people or people with disfigurements are called “creepy”, and when Nick Griffin (leader of the BNP) was on Question time a few years back he said that seeing two men kissing was creepy.
I just think it’s important in these conversations to remember that calling someone “creepy” comes from feeling uncomfortable, not a desire to belittle or whatever. We also need to remember that the problems with the word extend beyond men’s sexual advances.
I think maybe one response to it would be to change “that person is creepy” to “that person makes me feel creeped out” – that way it’s then possible to anylise one’s creeped out feelings to see if they are actually a legitimet warning or if they come from prejudice.
Chris- I agree, but I think ‘creepy’ is often used as a direct pejorative, to belittle people even when there is no threat perceived, just like every other insult. Both uses occur.
I also think that the problem with the “creep is a word women use to police male sexuality” sentence is the word “women”. I think men are just has happy to use it to police the sexuality of other men. Picture a stereotyped scene in an American high school where group of jocks see a pretty girl talking to a nerd, and then mock her for hanging out with “that creep”. In this situation the word is being used by men to police the access of lower-status men to women.
I’ve seen this happen in actual practice. A messageboard where a woman was discussing frankly a certain science-fiction sexual fantasy she had, which was in theme with the topic of the board. She had attracted a group of men who were sharing similar fantasies and asking questions about hers.
One of the men asked her outright if she’d like to play out this fantasy. Upon receiving a polite ‘no’ he continued to talk with her about their shared interests. The other men then turned on him and attempted to brand him “creepy”. Since they had all indicated their interest in her by following her around and asking questions about her sexuality, it was easy to infer from this that they were jealous that he had asked her out first. The men of this group apparently considered her their sexual territory and deployed the concept of “creep” in an attempt to drive off other males.
This is an effective strategy because it uses the underlying, indoctrinated fear women have of men and of male sexual violence as leverage. The overt message is intended to sow doubt, “are you sure about this guy? He might be dangerous.” While the unspoken suggestion is “you would be safer with me.”
So “creep” can with equal ease be used by women to express their anxiety about men, or by men to exploit that anxiety to control the sexuality of women.
“A male, S&M-oriented friend of mine told me about a girl he once spoke to while volunteering at a large feminist organization. She started a conversation about how she was coming to terms with her queer identity; she no longer wanted to have sex with men, but with women. He said he could relate, and described his feelings about coming into his S&M identity.
The next day, he got a call from the intern coordinator telling him to get back in the closet. “Turns out what I thought was discussing who I was, came across as hinting that she should participate,” says my friend. “The thought never crossed my mind—she was, after all, telling me that she didn’t want to have sex with men. But the cultural constructs around the conversation intervened between what I was saying and what she was hearing.”
What this woman did was abusive to this man and the extreme paranoia towards male proposals, “street harasment”, kissing without asking first (I still can`t understand any sane person thinks that should be necessary), that is frequently displayed in articels and comments on this site leads to abuse of men because entirely subjective and paranoid reactions in one woman then leads to undeserved punsihments for men. A slight discomfort for a woman that HAS to be there sometimes for men to behave in ways that most women want in terms of being daring enough in approaches, advances or making advances/approaches at all, leads to ruining a mans life. Just because of absurd sexual “assault” paranoia. If you advocate a ridiculous standard for sexual assault YOU are more abusive towards men than the men you are acusing are of women because you are ruining the lives of men with the consequences af regulating normal behavior as assault.
“The only way for a guy to guarantee that he won’t be called ‘creepy’ is to suppress entirely his sexuality”
Precisely. And that is also exactly what the women advocating for these insane standards of approaches want tehm to do. The whole attitude stems from a hatred of male sexuality.