Let’s create a movement by and for men and be as great as we can be, says Zek J. Evets. Let’s do something good.
Like Tom Matlack I, too, don’t know what it means to be a good man. I’ve tried to find the answer in everything from college textbooks to Blues music to sex with strangers to hopeless romanticism. I eventually took to cyberspace, the final frontier, in order to find answers. It was there I too became embroiled in the zero-sum game of the gender Oppression Olympics. I debated Feminists and MRAs about rape and video games like I was back upon a podium, or in my old college classroom. We never talked about real people; nobody seemed to care. It was always about who was right. Schwyzer, Marcotte, Valenti, Futrelle, Matlack, Elam, Farrell. Names tied to ideologies beloved or despised by thousands.
Even now, I still get in trouble because I don’t care about those concepts of privilege and Patriarchy. I’ve been filled with so much gender 101 that I’d rather pass or tune out than give a damn. I label myself, call myself a Masculist, but it doesn’t really mean anything to the guy sitting next to me at the bus-stop or coffee shop. It doesn’t mean anything to my girlfriend at home. It’s just a word. So much of these arguments are over words, over abstract concepts floating in cyberspace and labels applied haphazardly like a collection of fruit stickers.
Tom says the reasons behind being a Good Man are not a Feminist issue. And he’s absolutely right. This isn’t about women. It never was. This is about men. Straight men, gay man, queer men, White men, Black men, short men, tall men, Muslims, Jews, Hipsters, Jocks. All kinds of men.
That’s why I can understand the disappointment he expresses in his article over how so much of the conversation has been about Feminism, about women, about everything BUT men. We’re being talked to, talked at. We’re not being talked with. Worse yet, we’re not talking with each other. There’s no conversation happening. No more stories are being told. Nobody’s even pretending to listen anymore. Honestly, it’s just pure histrionics.
Maybe that’s the bitterness talking − the bitterness of having been slapped down for voicing thoughts and opinions outside a highly regulated gender dynamic. One where victimization is strictly for women and demonization is strictly for men. It’s hard, as a man, to give voice outside of macho stereotypes about issues like prison rape, like education, like fatherhood in safe spaces without being labeled suspicious. A men’s group is perceived as inherently supremacist, as if we cannot possibly come together as men for a positive purpose. I’ve often felt attacked, not because of anything I’ve done but because of my superficial resemblance to men who quite frankly don’t speak for me or the thousands of others I know struggling to answer the question which Tom has asked.
What makes a good man? There are thousands of reasons to say what makes a bad man, but can any of us think of one good reason that makes a good man which isn’t immediately hijacked, dismissed, or outright ignored?
More than that, however, is the thought that one day when I have a son, how will I teach him to be a good man? What about masculinity can I give to him which isn’t already tainted by toxic pop-culture stereotypes, Feminist suspicion, or misandric fears. What can I teach him that isn’t already corrupted by embittered misogyny emanated from old men who’ve played this game before, and lost. How can I raise a son when the world’s already made up its many minds on what he is?
I was asked what I really think about Tom’s piece. I feel powerfully about it. I feel emotional. This isn’t a PC response or a calculated attempt to pander to any side, even that of neutrality. This is how I really feel: unless we as men come together to save ourselves, we will continue to slip through the cracks. Nobody will care about us so much as each other. Nobody is better equipped to combat the problems facing us than each other. Nobody knows what our lives are like more than each other.
And here is my challenge. Let’s create a movement by and for men to do this. Let’s be as great as I know we can be. Let’s do something good and, maybe, in the process discover if doing good can help us to know what it means to be good.
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photo by dno1967b / flickr
About Zek J. Evets
“This isn’t about women. It never was. This is about men. Straight men, gay man, queer men, White men, Black men, short men, tall men, Muslims, Jews, Hipsters, Jocks. All kinds of men.”
Amen brother. Thank you.
Your writing is inspirational (succinct, coherent, a voice worth listening to ) and I wish you well.
Although I am a woman and for all intents and purposes the ‘enemy’ of your piece, with three young boys I have a vested interest in seeing you win this fight.
For what it’s worth however, many men have helped women advance their cause over the years. You talk of a movement of men, for men. I wouldn’t rule out having women, the right women, on your side. They are not all the enemy and many come to this site hoping to hear real, enlightening and/or enlightened conversations about men, by men.
Thanks.
Thanks specialk,
And I don’t think of you as the “enemy” haha. I love women and am in a long-term serious relationship with a radical Black Womanist/Feminist. My perspective is challenged in so many ways on a daily basis it’s enough to make my head spin! But I welcome women’s contributions to this conversation with the understanding that it’s about helping men. Because we do have some great allies; women like Lisa Hickey, Julie Gillis, and Joanna Schroeder. I value their ideas as much as I value those of my brothers. They care when many do not, which is a welcome relief.
And I wish the best of luck to you and your sons!
I wouldn’t rule out having women, the right women, on your side. They are not all the enemy and many come to this site hoping to hear real, enlightening and/or enlightened conversations about men, by men.
Certainly they are not. I think the reason this sentiment comes up is a combination of coming across ones that are the enemy and/or taking those to heart. There are a good number of women that have don’t just what you say here. But it’s going to be hard for some of the guys around here to see that they are indeed not the enemy.
I speak from experience on this.
Nobody knows what our lives are like more than each other.
Damn straight.
I have a problem with a movement by and for men that seeks to dismantle patriarchy and the ways in which patriarchy affects us: we already have a movement for that, Feminism.
While I 100% agree with all men (gay, straight, tall, short, queer, etc.), where would that leave FTM trans men. Or men who identify more heavily with women? I feel that dividing a movement that seeks to dismantle gender oppression into two genders is counter productive.
Being a good man IS about women and it always has been. Their oppression that continues today is STILL because men have a lot of work to do. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t good men out there, that doesn’t mean that there aren’t women who perpetuate patriarchy. It’s important to us men that we get our stuff together. It’s also important to women that men get their stuff together. It’s all about feminism.
Feminism provided us a lens to view the world from a subjectivity that focuses on gender. Sure, early feminism was mostly about a woman’s subjectivity, but men have borrowed these tools to construct masculinity theories. My point in this is that no matter how much we as men view ourselves and need to do so with each other’s support, we can’t straight up borrow the tools that feminism provided us and not only fail to give credit to early feminist, but also say “Let’s not include women in our movement”–it’s obvious that women have been a HUGE help to men.
What’s wrong with using our narratives and resources, as men, to help further the Feminist movement. After all, how can we solve gender oppression with just a portion of the genders?
I have a problem with a movement by and for men that seeks to dismantle patriarchy and the ways in which patriarchy affects us: we already have a movement for that, Feminism.
And if efforts by men to work with feminism for this common goal have failed and they now seek to strike out on their own? Because that’s what’s happen to a lot of guys that were basically told they were not welcome.
I feel that dividing a movement that seeks to dismantle gender oppression into two genders is counter productive.
But when the different sides that have a common goal aren’t seeing common ground what are they to do? Are all sides but one supposed to just fold their lot into that one side under that banner without question or something?
Being a good man IS about women and it always has been.
That is only one small piece of the puzzle. Yet it is often treated like that is the entire puzzle of Being A Good Man. There is a whole lot more to a man, much less a good man, than how he interacts with women. There are plenty of men out there that are on good terms with women and still have a lot of f’d up stuff hurting them that they might need help with. But since the things they need help with don’t start and finish around women they are pushed to the side as not being important.
It’s important to us men that we get our stuff together. It’s also important to women that men get their stuff together. It’s all about feminism.
So which is more important? Men getting our stuff together or making it all about feminism? Because no, they are not the same thing.
My point in this is that no matter how much we as men view ourselves and need to do so with each other’s support, we can’t straight up borrow the tools that feminism provided us and not only fail to give credit to early feminist, but also say “Let’s not include women in our movement”–it’s obvious that women have been a HUGE help to men.
Ah, a motive appears?
Which is more important, getting everyone on the straight and narrow or making sure feminism gets the credit for the tools? I don’t see women constantly going out of their way to say that their movements have only gotten as far as they have because of the men that supported them. And for the record its not “Let’s not include women in our movement” its “Let’s not have women take over our movement. We have to take the lead with our own voices.”
Of course women have been a huge help to men but at the same time I wonder.
What is the big deal with wanting men to have spaces and movements where women are not in the lead?
It seems on one hand you have feminists telling men that we have to do it ourselves (which I agree with) but at the slightest hint of going off the trail that feminists have laid out we’re told that we are wrong.
I have seen countless discussions about how men shouldn’t be in the lead when it comes to women’s spaces and movements. Honestly I agree. They are ultimately doing it for themselves and I wish them luck. If we cross paths on good terms let’s talk.
So why is it seen as such an act of anti-woman/anti-feminist hostility when men try to do the same?
Feminism provides one lens we can use to examine and understand gender issues. It can provide useful insights and it can inform the debate. But it is only one lens – there are many other ways we can examine these issues, and each has it’s own lessons to teach us.
I’ve often found useful insight in what feminists have to say, but it sometimes feels like they are here to deliver a lecture rather than participate in a dialogue. They seem to want their perspective and their theories to be the only ones and that’s where I have a problem.
Certainly, not all feminists seem to be like this (Clarisse Thorn comes to mind as a feminist who genuinely tries to understand other perspectives, and has tons of useful insight). But it’s hard not to read Hugo Schwyzer’s “Men’s Goodness Hinges on Hearing Women’s Voices” without feeling like he is trying to assert control over the discussion.
Kaleb,
I have a problem with a movement by and for men that seeks to dismantle patriarchy and the ways in which patriarchy affects us: we already have a movement for that, Feminism.
I think I’ve found the fatal flaw in your comment. See, Feminism isn’t by OR for men. In fact, Feminism only marginally concerned with men, at best — at worst, they outright ignore men. Notably, this wouldn’t divide men at all, because it’d be about all kinds of men, including trans-men or men who identify with women. Why? Because it’d be about men! Haha, sorry but I think you’re missing that point a little bit.
Being a good man IS about women and it always has been.
I disagree, on both counts. Men should not have to define themselves in relation to women anymore than women should have to define themselves in relation to men. We can, and do, exist independently of the opposite gender — just ask gay men. More importantly, it has been this way for a long time up until the last 50-60 years. I think you’re projecting your own ideas of what it means to be a good man onto all men who may have different priorities than you do.
Their oppression that continues today is STILL because men have a lot of work to do … It’s also important to women that men get their stuff together. It’s all about feminism.
Nobody has said women aren’t still being oppressed. But you’re missing the point: you’re turning the conversation back to women. It’s not. This space is talking about men. (Hence the magazine title.) I think if you want to find a space to talk about women or Feminism there are PLENTY for you to do that. But I think having a space like this is equally important if men are going to find any meaningful change in their lives.
Moreover, sexism in society is not because of men. It’s because of a some men, and even a few women too! But most men are just as oppressed as everyone else. We need to talk about their problems. I hope that that is important to women, but it doesn’t matter whether they approve or not because ultimately our problems are something we need to deal with.
Feminism provided us a lens to view the world from a subjectivity that focuses on gender … we can’t straight up borrow the tools that feminism provided us and not only fail to give credit to early feminist, but also say “Let’s not include women in our movement”
Y’know, I never said to steal Feminist tools. In fact, I think Feminism is ill-equipped to help men, honestly. You should check the conversation over at Noah Brand’s response. Men need to create our own tools which are uniquely equipped to help us — just like women created their own hammer to smash patriarchy, men need a hammer and screwdriver to smash or unpackage their problems too.
What’s wrong with using our narratives and resources, as men, to help further the Feminist movement. After all, how can we solve gender oppression with just a portion of the genders?
Because Feminism isn’t what I’m concerned about. I’m fully confident that Feminism will help women; I’m not so sure they’ll help men because they’ve mostly failed to do so. And that’s fine. Feminism was never about helping men in the first place. But for the men that need help, or for the men who want to become good men, it’s necessary that they have their own spaces to use and rely upon.
You seem to think that a men’s movement would leave women out of the conversation, but ask yourself: if you truly believe that Feminism has helped men, then why do you think that a men’s movement wouldn’t help women? Regardless, it isn’t about helping women in this space. It’s about men. If you disagree with that central point, there’s not much else I can say.
Despite your response to me Zek, indeed because of this article and now your response to Kaleb (were you allowing him his opinion or trying to win the argument, something you mention as being problematic in the article?) the overarching feeling I get is that you and Tom would like to create a female free, disagreement free zone. Unfortunately this is the internet and you can’t keep women or men who disagree with you out. Referring to the title of the website as if that should be a gate keeper to keeping the ‘undesirables’ out is not going to do you any favors. It suggests a feeling of superiority, a sense of ‘you’re with us or against us’ and if you can’t be with us don’t come here. It sounds like what you really need or would like is a private group, online or offline, of hand picked men who all think the same way and only want to tackle certain aspects of being a good man.
You write, “Moreover, sexism in society is not because of men. It’s because of a some men”. If I were going to start picking apart your argument (as you did Kaleb’s) this would be one thing I think reveals how short sighted you are being and how focused on winning your argument you are. You need to think further back than the last 50 years to know that women were regarded as second to men by men in general. It was a given. Women were less. It was not the doing of a couple of powerful men.
Regardless, I don’t want to pick apart your argument, instead I prefer to end saying that I just don’t see how women can be taken out of the equation of ‘being a good man’. Obviously it is absolutely not all about women and I don’t think every question or problem that arises for men involves women but bloody hell, you all interface with women on a daily basis and if you don’t you are living in a lonely place. At some point you have to ask how your being a good man impacts women, how it impacts your mother, or sister, or wife, or girlfriend, or co-worker, or the tired woman selling you kebabs at 3 am on a Saturday morning after a big night out. i totally understand that sometimes, ‘some’ women can’t resist trying to make any question about women, they want to tell you that women have it worse or whatever, tell them to bugger off or ignore them. If I am sick with glandular fever it does not mean that you don’t have a right to feel sorry for yourself when you have sore throat. Women have suffered and do suffer but so do men.
Zac I’ve read some of your writing so I know you give a crap about your girlfriend and women in general. To me being a good man means being a good person full stop. Women need to be better women, men need to be better men and that can’t happen in a vacuum with no one taking into account the opposite sex.
I think too many people are caught up in how the fight to be a good man should go down. Just get on with it I say.
As for the female contributors to this site that you reference, they are all great. Julie in particular is one of the few online voices I really enjoy reading. Always a voice of reason, calm, well thought out arguments or points of view.
Specialk,
the overarching feeling I get is that you and Tom would like to create a female free, disagreement free zone.
Well, I can’t speak for Tom but I do know that I don’t want a female free echo chamber. I want to include women in the conversation but not privilege their voice over those of my brothers. It’s difficult to express how frustrating it can be trying to explain this concept online, but honestly that’s the truth. I don’t want exclude any “undesireables” (as you call them) but rather ensure that in a male space that men get to talk back and forth, that men get to share, that men get a chance to have THEIR voice privileged over those of others. Why? Because there are so few places where men, average, everyday, regular, not rich & powerful men get to have a voice, get to feel empowered, get to really tackle their issues and problems. Their hopes and fears.
You said, “that can’t happen in a vacuum with no one taking into account the opposite sex … I think too many people are caught up in how the fight to be a good man should go down. Just get on with it I say.”
But then how do you explain the “vaccum” (as you call it) which exist in abundance for women, religious groups, racial groups, etc. There aren’t many specifically for men. Attempts to create them have been often met with hostility, suspicion, anger, and even outright attacks. I don’t think any conversation can happen in a vacuum, which is WHY I want a space for men to speak in as men. It’s really that simple.
Without a space for men (like Kaleb and I) to debate these issues without the conversation always focusing on women and what they think or have to say, there’s no hope for any meaningful change for men at all, in my opinion. I’m not caught up in the how the “fight” (as you call it) should go down because I don’t see it as a fight at all! I see it as a much-needed conversation only beginning to happen outside of highly cloistered social groups like veterans groups, addict support groups, father’s rights groups, and other such parties. But I worry that without a serious push by men like me, and like others here, the conversation will always derail into a female-oriented perspective that completely ignores what one half of the population really thinks. Even if what they think is wrong, or sexist, or crazy, or bitter, or confused, or sad, or angry, or whatever.
I think you understand my point but are perhaps conflating my opinion with that of other men? Or perhaps you’re taking my disagreement with Kaleb to an extreme? I’m not sure, because honestly what you’re talking about is fairly close to what I’m asking for.
Look I agree we are more or less on the same page and I absolutely agree it is frustrating to try and get a point of view, with all it’s ifs and buts and nuances out using only words on a computer. For what it’s worth I will say that I totally understand your feeling that many women derail any conversation men can have about whatever it is they want to talk about by making it about them, saying women have it worse etc. I will also say however that having come to this site for more than 6 months a lot of men here are not helping your cause either. Most of the time I don’t bother commenting because I know people only want to win arguments (like your article mentioned) or they have had one bad relationship with a woman and that’s that, all women are terrible, marriage is for suckers etc and they are going to hammer that point until people stop biting. It’s tiresome and I’m sure off putting to a lot of would be participants, male and female. Men can play the victim as much as women can and it’s attractive in exactly no one!
Anyway, i do like what you have to say and I’d love to read more articles from you. Based on one of your last comments, I would love to hear more about the challenges you faced as a young boy. As I mentioned before I have three young boys, 3, 5 and 6 and they challenge me every day, they have so much energy it is awe inspiring. I feel like every day I am trying to be the best mother to all of my boys who are each so different from each other but it’s hard and let’s not forget that I have a right to a life that goes beyond them too!
I worry about how my actions will shape them growing up. I worry about letting the media get inside their head, staking a claim to parts of their personality, turning them into men I don’t want them to be – (men who judge women solely on their looks, disgard them after a certain age etc). But mostly I worry about my eldest who sounds like you (very curious, very intelligent, very needy (as children have the right to be) and I am terrified that he might end up feeling unworthy of love simply because I can’t give him everything he requires. Even if I only had one child I feel he would need more than I can give and I have a lot or energy and a lot of love to give! Raising children is actually terrifying.
Well done, Zak. Well done. I wanted to write something like this, but you put it much more eloquently and far nicer than I believe I could have.
I was born in 1986. By the time I hit public school, the feminist line of thinking was in full swing. I grew up being bombarded from every angle (with the exception, as it turns out, of my mother) with subtle messages telling me to be ashamed, to put women before me always, that I was privileged and had to pay the price for it. That my gender carried a mark of shame with it.
I didn’t have a bad childhood or anything like that. In fact, I would relive it again in a heart beat. But I wish I had a support system to help me grow as a man the way that women had their systems. Part of the reason that I turned out such a loner is because I learned early on that no one really cares about men, and I had to learn to depend on myself, to learn the world on my own.
I don’t want to have kids, partly because I am cynical of the world. But I especially don’t want to have a boy, because I am afraid of what kind of society I would be sending him out into.
Reading this though, it gives me a spark of hope. I honestly hadn’t even considered changing the landscape of men for the better. I’m just… so jaded and cynical because of the way things are that I guess I had given up on it long ago. But hope is good. Haven’t felt that in a long time. Maybe… having kids wouldn’t be so bad one day.
DLZ,
Thanks. I too was born in 1986, the summer of specifically.
I grew up in a time when boys were being prescribed medication for ADD/ADHD as if it were candy. Not because we had any sort of behavioral problem that required medication but because our parents were ill-equipped to raise us and society didn’t understand the developmental needs of boys. I couldn’t be energized because I was being “too hyper”. When I asked questions I was being “disruptive”. When I was bullied and fought back I was being a “troublemaker”. I learned to depend on myself from a very young age, and it took a long time to learn how to open myself up to be capable of love and being loved in return.
Anyhoo, glad you felt inspired and got a spark of hope!
Good article Zek
I find it interesting how few people(male or female) are actually discussing the points of it. Though Im not too surprised.
Cheers
John
Am a female, and I feel you. Honestly. I know how it feels to always have oneself under the mistake scanner, always have your motives doubted. It just keeps a part of your brain engaged in calculating how many misconceptions one can make about you, which tires you and constrains you. Patriarchy is a social system that gives males a number of privileges over females. But our social system cannot be characterized by patriarchy alone, male privilege does not exist in every situation. In the gender relations men face their own special sorts of problems and these problems need to be addressed and solved. That is why I disagree with the following:
“And here is my challenge. Let’s create a movement by and for men to do this. Let’s be as great as I know we can be. Let’s do something good and, maybe, in the process discover if doing good can help us to know what it means to be good.”
Not just by men. Denying women entry will not only deprive you of insights into the male problems from a female angle, but it will be useless as the purpose is to live harmoniously, not without each other.