Men’s stories of the too-good-to-be-true, sexy girlfriend who became unhinged are universal, and universally lacking in sympathy for the woman’s position.
Cali, Valle del Cauca, Colombia.
Here in Cali women are very beautiful. They seem to have a couple of advantages that I haven’t seen before that seem almost universal to the Calenas. From what I know about fitness and strength training, a female body is harder to manipulate than a male body. If a girl has heavy upper legs, small breasts, a flat butt, or not much waist, there is not too much she can do about it. Of course she can still be smart, pretty, and healthy. But here it seems that there are a lot of girls blessed with perfect genes for curviness, ideal fat distribution, and firmness.
It is impossible not to notice and it is impossible not to be fascinated. It is a common topic of conversation because it is just true and visible everywhere around you. The Netherlands are know for tulips, cheese, and weed, the USA is known for New York and hamburgers, and Cali is known for its beautiful women and salsa.
When guys talk about the girls they have encountered in their lives, because that is the inevitable turn the conversation will take here, sooner or later the ‘psycho bitch from hell’ pops up in a story. Every guy knows what this means. It is the girl that at first seemed too good to be true. Gorgeous, wild, fun, sexy, and seductive in the beginning, she turns out to be crazy, possessive, dark, unpredictable, and dramatic pretty quickly.
The psycho bitch from hell is a global and cross-cultural phenomenon. As far as I know she can be encountered in every country of the world and in many different social classes. It is not just Western men that know who I am talking about, she is also known to Asian men, South American, Arab and African men.
The usual way the story is told is by anecdotes of how long it took the guy to find out, the crazy things that happened in between, and the moment he got the hell out of there, sometimes followed by more stories of windows and windshields being smashed, physical attacks, or suicide threats.
Any role is limiting per definition, but the expectations that are put on women cost more of her freedom and authenticity than the expectations put on men.
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In these stories, there is not much compassion for the girl.
Although I admit it is very difficult for a boyfriend to understand what is going on because it often happens to us when we are teenagers or in our twenties, when we are immature ourselves and the girl is unable to communicate what is really going on with her, I would like to try to share what I see.
It is hard being a woman. I think it is harder then being a man. This goes for every culture, but I think it is even more difficult in non-Western cultures. Both men and women are expected to live according their gender roles. Any role is limiting per definition, but the expectations that are put on women cost more of her freedom and authenticity than the expectations put on men. Most importantly, as men we are more or less allowed to be aggressive and angry from time to time. Women have to fit the role of obedient, sweet, caring, and serving. In an unjust world this can be incredibly frustrating, especially when the consensus inside a community is that it is okay to exploit these characteristics.
There is nothing outside of us. We don’t possess only a certain amount of human features: we each possess all of them. But we are expected to cultivate some and suppress others. We are not supposed to express the complete spectrum of our humanity. So we create a survival mechanism that serves us best: our identity, or our ego. With this mechanism we try to control our lives as best we can. We hide vulnerability, anger, fear, desire and many other aspects of ourselves. We are all looking for love, security and approval. As men, we can choose to blatantly pursue power and money to hopefully make us feel safe and loved. Many women, especially in more traditional cultures, don’t have that option.
So we are all caged, and the smaller and more debilitating our cage is, the more we suffer inside and the more we want to break free. We all create destructive mechanisms to escape the pressure of the expectations of culture, society and family. We drink, fuck, fight, achieve, hide, run, and perish.
I don’t know if the cage of the beautiful young woman is the most complicated one, but it is a difficult one to live in. Aside from all the expectations around being a ‘good girl,’ a ‘good daughter’ and a ‘good student,’ she learns that a certain behavior can offer a feeling of freedom and open all kinds of doors quickly. When she skillfully acts sexy, playful, and wild, she can get a lot of attention very fast. But it is a role that comes with a lot of norms, rules and restrictions. The love and the freedom she finds is artificial because it is not based on authenticity. Keeping the illusion alive is almost impossible. Sooner or later she succumbs to the pressure she puts on herself and she panics. But as her masks drops her identity is now at stake. It is a very scary and vulnerable feeling when we lose control over our self-image, especially if we believe we are completely dependent upon how we look and act to receive love and freedom. The pain, confusion, and fear come out as destructive and self-destructive behavior. Last night’s hot party girl has transformed into the psycho bitch from hell.
In many cultures, the position of the woman is not to be envied. She can be literally kicked out onto the street or locked inside the house when she doesn’t meet cultural, relational, or sexual expectations. This reality amplifies her fear. Her situation can become very unsafe for her very quickly. Reasons for panic can include another woman, a rival, and anything else that triggers a response.
Underneath all this is that most human beings don’t even have a notion of what a healthy personality structure is, let alone know how to create nurturing conditions for self and others. A psycho bitch from hell is just another lost and caged soul like the rest of us, maybe a bit more lost and caged than average. We all deserve to be free. Let’s be kind to each other.
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Read more: Why Women Aren’t Crazy
This was previously published on Basic Goodness.
I’d say that western culture currently shuns all forms of aggressive behavior. Even children aren’t struck [in public] anymore.
In my experience, though, it can be a difficult to call out a woman for being overly aggressive or angry since outsiders are unlikely to rush to the defense of a male accuser–allowing/causing the woman to aggravate (the male stigma for not being able to defend himself plays a role, too, of course).
My opinion is that a woman can usually expect strangers to come to her aid when the role is reversed and she is publicly threatened or frightened.
My personal favorite aspect of the psycho ex-girlfriend phenomenon is the whole between the lines thing…most of my friends are dudes, and, when they get to talking about this, there is a phenomenal lack of context. They leave out the unflattering parts of the story. I hear about how someone keyed a car or smashed a windshield…only later is it revealed that the dude in question slept with the girl’s sister, or shared her nudie pics with his fraternity…yeah, imagine that…you manipulate, lie to, and cheat on a woman, and then, whoopty-fucking-do, she gets pissed, only, instead of acknowledging that… Read more »
Men should empathize with women even when they are wrong, abusive and seek to understand their perspective.
But we surely dont need to empathize with men or understand their perspective with any compassion, when they commit wrongs. We cannot eve seek to explain their behavior because that would amount to justifying it.
Am I the only one here who sense a double standard?
This article is about women. It’s not a double standard. It’s that one article can’t be your everything. Keep reading.
my comments dissapear-weird…
any yeah, i brought up male disposability-no, it is warren farrell’s idear not mine…
Let’s look at all the possible explanations here. The phenomenon under discussion is the common trope in movies where a beautiful woman all of the sudden goes batshit crazy, out of control, and violent, without warning. A more common scenario in real life is that a man dates a woman who was always somewhat unstable, and either she managed to keep it in check early in the relationship or he was so horny or so falling in love or both that he failed to notice or was in denial, until reality finally caught up with him. Either he couldn’t ignore… Read more »
Maybe she gets out of control and violent without warning. And maybe the man in question is simply not comfortable with her expressing anything outside of happiness and love and pleasure of him that he responds in an out of the place way in response. Of coures, that doesn’t apply to women that are smashing windows. But there can be a huge disconnection between how a woman sees a situation and how a man does. Women being called “bitches” and “crazy” or “psycho” has never strictly been reserved for just women that become out of control and violent. I have… Read more »
If we assume that every woman that uses those negative and degrading terms is automatically correct, then we are missing a huge chunk of the conversation and we are autmoatically discrediting men and their own experiences. It’s a matter of “he said/she said” in those situations. Of course, there are obvious situations where a man violate boundaries and his behavior is rehensible and shouldn’t be tolerated. But calling him a “creep” has no impact on anything and certainly doesn’t fix anything. Not making any assumptions about your stance on the term “creep”, but can’t this be read as an argument… Read more »
Absolutely Tamen. “Creep” is a label tossed around by women. Sometimes it’s given to a man that simply approached her who was perfectly nice and normal. But if a man approaches a woman and his behavior is inappropiate, there is still a way to talk about that without calling him a name.
I don’t think names get us anywhere. Talk about the behavior. Do not just throw names out and about.
I don’t think names get us anywhere. Talk about the behavior. Do not just throw names out and about. On one hand I can totally understand someone saying, “He’s creepy.” rather than “The way he approached me. He looked nervous, made odd movements, and kept his eyes on my chest the entire time.” on a count of there being fewer words. On the other hand what has happened is that for some reason, maybe because of the ease of saying two words versus fully explaining the experience, it has become easier to toss those two words. If the words were… Read more »
Women usually aren’t worried about lowering their word count.
Your speaking for all woman aside not so much the word count itself but a matter of looking for an easier way to say something long and drawn out. I think this is part of how various terms get misused. Yeah this thing here kinda sounds like this this here so I’ll just use that term in place of this explanation. Liike swear words. It’s not that someone is actively choosing to say “fuck!” instead of “I can’t believe you just did that!” because that one word is is faster to say than seven. It’s that that one word has… Read more »
FUCK is an aggressive word in some contexts and is proven to make you feel better, it certainly lowers my pain. When I get hurt or angry swearing helps calm me, I guess I see it as letting out that pain n anger. It’s also a good idea to ignore most of what I say when angry as often I am just venting.
Creep though I don’t think triggers any of that, creep is a direct insult.
Do they require a defense, I wonder, those psycho-bitches? And from what exactly? I found an element profoundly missing in this article that talks about women traumatized and controlled by social restrictions and expectations, so much so that they lash out in pain. There is trauma there, yes, in the violent reaction, but there is also power which is not mentioned. Funny thing about female power is that no one knows what it is anymore. Men have always been encouraged to be powerful. Force, anger, aggression are acceptable and often encouraged in men. It is not okay to bit up… Read more »
Did you lash out at men verbally and/or physically? Every-time I’ve thought of someone as a psycho bitch they have been lying, manipulative, abusive, violent. They may think that they were just simply showing anger but they don’t seem to realize that the anger they showed was not even acceptable for men, it’s not just gggrrr I’m angry but it’s anger that truly makes you fearful they will do something, women you fear will destroy your possessions, hell probably even take a knife to you. Luckily they’re incredibly rare in my life. Basic typical anger though doesn’t make me think… Read more »
See, that’s the thing with anger that is not allowed – one does not have a chance to learn how to express it in a productive, non – threatening manner. Women had little chance to learn how to be present with their anger, men had little chance to learn how to be present with female anger, so as soon as the anger comes up everyone freaks out, men and women alike, and of course everyone get’s hurt. I am a bit less of a bitch these days not because my anger got successfully suppressed, but because I have learned to… Read more »
I think generally no one is really allowed to show anger too much. Men will be thought of as violent, women will be thought of as psycho (which men are already thought of as default before anyone accuses sexism). I however allow and laugh at when my friends (both genders) get angry, it usually makes them laugh too as they laugh when I am angry too. It’s usually just a random fuck this, fuck that, rah rah rah rant which is funny to watch. I guess we found an acceptable way to be angry in a sense.
Not recently, no. Anger is not politically correct and, as with all not PC things, by trying to push them away and pretend they don’t exist we are missing the point. We see in anger only pain and destruction, but we don’t see the power there, the strength. Laughing anger off makes it cute and safe to deal with, but still does not acknowledge the power and the strength.
It is not “managing anger” that will transform the issue of violence, both against men and women, but becoming comfortable with anger, becoming present with anger.
Women who really even question the way they are being spoken to (or at) are called psycho for noticing. One does not have to go so far as to be an abuser or anything close; I’ve had people try to pull this crap with me because I’ve asked them to stop being offensive toward me, let me finish what I am saying, or be civil. And God forbid if you really do get mad… I think every woman who has ever been mad has probably heard this charge before, it is so terribly, terribly common. It is slander, and a… Read more »
““Why does that comment not get said to men so frequently, when they are at least as crazy as women, on average?”” Because they use different terms. Deranged, psychopath, insane, terms referring to the VIOLENTLY mentally ill. Women get terms relating to emotional instability, irrational thought, etc. Women = crying hysterial mess, men = violent psychotic killer in a most stereotypical fashion. “Women are told that if they don’t like someone’s disrespectful behavior, they’re “too sensitive”, “imagining” things, or being “crazy.” And chances are that if it is the type of men who would do objectionable things, it would not… Read more »
I hear what you’re saying, and want to add that as a man, my anger is not acceptable. In fact, it became more threatening to those around me when I transitioned from living as a woman to living as a man.
Indeed. I’m not sure why there is so much discussion on women’s anger not being seen as acceptable when it’s not acceptable for men, just expected (because men are seen as angry violent people and women seen as gentle angels). I’ve never had my anger seen as acceptable except with a few friends who laugh at me breaking shit I just built that fucked up and they laugh at women angry too, just as I do, unless it’s anger directed with violence in which case it’s time to GTFO and seek safety. But in general, I can’t go yelling at… Read more »
I’m not trying to one up your anything but let me add that when you are the trifecta of being large, black, and male you’d be surprised just how the world treats you and assumes you are angry. And it doesn’t help that there are those who consider themselves progressive that will acknowledge the black and the large but will fight tooth and nail to refuse the acknowledgement of the male part of that trifecta.
Nah, you got me on that, Danny. I look more small and mean than big and dangerous.
6’6, large body, I later found out my size intimidated people in highschool let alone as an adult where I got more muscle. I think bigger people are less able to show anger because of inbuilt instincts regarding size n danger which may be why women are allowed more freedom in showing anger than men as it’s seen as less dangerous.
The sterotype just doesn’t exist to the same extent with men, though men are clearly not less violent than women (at least as much) They are actually also statistically more addicted and mentally ill. The point is not to say “men are bad” because they are “crazy” as well. It is more like, “Why does that comment not get said to men so frequently, when they are at least as crazy as women, on average?” Because there are different comment made towards men when it comes to anger. I hear what you’re saying but try being a man where whether… Read more »
On the other hand… Beautiful women in some ways are like rich people–they can get away with being crazy simply because they have enough social power to excuse it. Women who’ve been beautiful all their lives have also enjoyed the privilege of being accepted and excused all their lives, their social dysfunctions glossed over or even praised because they have the coin to pay for it–high physical beauty. When would they have learned to ‘rein it in,’ to consider the feelings or welfare of others, if no one has ever held them accountable for their actions? “Psycho bitch from hell”… Read more »
Beautiful women in some ways are like rich people–they can get away with being crazy simply because they have enough social power to excuse it. Women who’ve been beautiful all their lives have also enjoyed the privilege of being accepted and excused all their lives, their social dysfunctions glossed over or even praised because they have the coin to pay for it–high physical beauty. When would they have learned to ‘rein it in,’ to consider the feelings or welfare of others, if no one has ever held them accountable for their actions? “Psycho bitch from hell” stories are common because… Read more »
Perhaps because I work in an environment where profanity exists daily if not hourly, I am somewhat immune to hearing, reading such language. My using the term “bitch, especially since it was used in the title, did not appear to me to be that big of a deal. Truth is, would the article have had any less impact had the term not been included? Or thought behind use of the term the idea of bitchiness as part of what was being addressed alongside the psychotic behavior. Accordingly, my use of the term was in line with the topic. One can… Read more »
AAAA: The claim that there is a universal lack of sympathy for women is ironically designed to elicit our sympathy. Even the inherent challenge it presents toward being better than the rest of those less enlightened and callous men and women appeals to the masculine logic of besting ones peers. And this dynamic hinges on the explicit denial of the existing sympathy for women. So even in the face of women specific health efforts, countless state funded DV shelters that only help women, councils on Capital Hill made specifically for women and girls, and an entire gender discourse that views,… Read more »
@Aspire I beg to differ: ‘It is increasingly a “level playing field,” said researcher Rachel Allison of the University of Illinois, who looked at the survey responses of more than 19,000 college students from 22 different U.S. schools.’ This study is not relevant to my judgements, nor does it discredit my conclusions drawn from past experiences- You see I live in Australia where the cultural context is completely different, and a study done in the US using a very limited number of students, notable males with a set of values influenced by their social (cultural) surroundings very different to those… Read more »
Well I live in Australia and can safely say of the people I’ve known, male n female cheaters have both been seen as C***’s. Neither better than the other. Make of that as you will.
“The claim that there is a universal lack of sympathy for women is ironically designed to elicit our sympathy. Even the inherent challenge it presents toward being better than the rest of those less enlightened and callous men and women appeals to the masculine logic of besting ones peers.” The ‘women have it worse’ is just a cultural meme. There is no real evidence to back that up. Yes there are situation where bein a woman you have the short end of the stick and there are other situations where bein a woman you are better placed than anybody else.… Read more »
@Stacey: It appears you aren’t correct.
http://www.torontosun.com/2012/08/17/promiscuous-men-judged-just-as-harshly-as-women-study
‘She learns that a certain behavior can offer a feeling of freedom and open all kinds of doors quickly. When she skillfully acts sexy, playful, and wild, she can get a lot of attention very fast. But it is a role that comes with a lot of norms, rules and restrictions. The love and the freedom she finds is artificial because it is not based on authenticity. Keeping the illusion alive is almost impossible.’ By the time the woman learns that role and takes it…its not an illusion anymore, even if it was tentatively at the beginning. That’s the trap… Read more »
Thing is, if you were a man invisible to women because you don’t fit the typical “boyfriend material” template – you wouldn’t have the chance to become a “dog”. A woman can boost her perceived sexual value by showing she’s into sex, a man can’t – because his being into sex is usually taken as a given. The male pendant to the young woman who “sleeps around” (a term I hate) because she feels like the only thing she has to offer that men are interested in is sex is not the man who has sex with a lot of… Read more »
All right, I’ll try a more polite approach seeing as how my previous comment got moderated into oblivion.
The problem I have with articles like this it’s the same song and dance: Woman assaults or abuses man, let’s try and have empathy for them.
Sympathy can only extend so far. If a person relentlessely assaults and threatens another person’s life, then they should be treated like the criminal they are. That goes for women as well.
But the article doesn’t say that a woman assulted or abused a man. We don’t know if the woman assaulted or abused the man. She might have made him feel disrespected though. That happens a lot on both sides. All we know is that sometimes men can use that phrase to describe behavior of women they don’t like or understand. That might mean she is actually abusive but she also might not be, being abusive. We don’t know based on the point Atawlin is trying to make. Just because a man labels a woman like that, for behavior he doesn’t… Read more »
“The usual way the story is told is by anecdotes of how long it took the guy to find out, the crazy things that happened in between, and the moment he got the hell out of there, sometimes followed by more stories of windows and windshields being smashed, physical attacks, or suicide threats.”
Please read the article. That clearly says a woman physically attacked a man. Disrespected? Sure, physically attacking someone could be considered disrespect….
As the writer of this article I would like to say the following:
Erin, you are totally right. Thank you. You have understood exactly the point I wanted to make in this article.
Archy, you are misinterpreting, exaggerating and dramatizing. What you seem to ‘get’ is not what I wrote. You are projecting your own story. If you are unaware of that, just ask Erin.
Thank you for putting so much energy into this.
“The usual way the story is told is by anecdotes of how long it took the guy to find out, the crazy things that happened in between, and the moment he got the hell out of there, sometimes followed by more stories of windows and windshields being smashed, physical attacks, or suicide threats. In these stories, there is not much compassion for the girl.” Explain why you added this then? Are physical attacks not abusive? What you don’t seem to get is that you wrote down physical attacks, and many commenter, not just me, have read that as these psycho… Read more »
Title of the article “In Defense of Psycho Bitches from Hell” I would like to point out that the title of the article used the same term I used regarding the young lady I encountered. I thought it would be appropriate to use the term “bitch” given that it was used in the article itself. Perhaps you should address your issues directly to the writer and TGMP as to their use of the term, “bitch.” What I find confusing is that many women pride themselves as being “bitches” yet when it referenced as to inappropriate behavior and the affects those… Read more »
Yeap, the world is a confusing place. Which is why I try to follow my own code of ethics despite what other people believe or do. Some women very well may pride themselves on being “bitches”. However, many women don’t. And if you really went out there and sincerely asked women what they thought about that, I think you would find more that didn’t like that then did. But even if you didn’t, it’s up to you to decide what words you use. It is not the fault of other people. You are resonpsible for that, they are not. No… Read more »
I think you’re absolutely right, Erin.
Just to be clear, you think Erin is right to attack someone’s use of language rather than addressing the points they have actually made?
What points that Tom B made? Are you serious? The best point in the thread is the one Erin has made about the use of derogatory terms. Even Tom B must agree that he hasn’t exactly made a point; just agreed that, yeah, some women sure are bitches, and he’s dated a few, too. That’s not rocket science, there.
Justin,
The article here makes a case defending bad human behavior. Tom B then argued that some behavior is obviously bad, in such a manner that it should not be defensible. Erin countered by arguing he used the wrong language.
This is a classic argument out of Orwell:
“Something bad happened to me today,”
“It’s wrong to use the term bad, instead you should say un-good”
At best this is non-responsive, at worst it actually denies Tom’s experience by claiming that such observations as his are impossible to make.
Mike L, you are false to say that I have denied Tom B’s experience. Although was it really Tom B’s experience or was it really the experience of that man and that woman in the store? Tom B was mearly an outside observer. You ignored the part where I agreed with Tom B that some behavior is obviously bad and should not be defensible. Which is why you didn’t see me argue against him on that point and why you see me agreeing with him that that behavior was bad. I was very clear about making the point that we… Read more »
Erin, You are attempting to tell another person which words they may or may not use to describe their own experience, as in NOT your experience, but someone else’s experience. Nothing you wrote here changes that basic fact. You can argue which words degrade and which do not until you at blue in the face; unless you are actually Tom B. it is inappropriate to tell him which words most accurately describe his experiences. You are very clearly denying his experience by attacking the language he felt was most accurate. Whatever your reasons for doing this are do not actually… Read more »
You can continue to lay claim that I “refuse” to accept Tom B’s experience. But the fact remains that calling someone a “psycho bitch from hell” doesn’t “describe” one’s own experience. Saying that a woman behaved violently or abusively by engaging in a, b or c behaviors DOES describe one’s experience. But sorry, simply saying a woman is a a “psycho bitch from hell” does not “describe one’s own experience.
You do not fight against degrading behavior by engaging in degrading behavior yourself, Mike L.
You are not in any way, shape or form limited to how you describe the event simply because you don’t use the word “bitch”. Calling a woman a “bitch”, doesn’t even do anything to describe the event. It doesn’t describe what happened, it doesn’t point to anything intelligent, it doesn’t help anyone, including yourself. Calling someone a ‘bitch”, doesn’t give anyoen a better idea about what happened. All it does, by calling someone a “bitch”, is tell us *you* think that person is a “bitch”. But who really cares if you think that person is a “bitch”? That’s not the… Read more »
I dunno about others, but psycho bitch from hell is a pretty accurate description of these individuals in the level of violent and unstable behaviour. It’s a gendered slur which isn’t good but it’s also a good descriptor of what many others will know of. She has a point though with conflating who is a bitch, as when it’s used alone or just “crazy bitch” it’s usage is done to gaslight at times, and also applied to people who are simply acting in a different manner with emotional outbursts than the person is use to. I’m yet to see a… Read more »
While “bitch” is most assuredly gendered, it is not without its counterpart, “asshole.” Slate’s Lexicon Valley podcast recently discussed the book “Ascent of the A-Word” and discussed how the terms bitch and asshole are used. One of the interesting things about terms is that we ascribe meanings to them that aren’t necessarily shared. Both terms can be used to describe behavior (she was being quite bitchy to me this morning; that was quite an asshole move he made back there) as well as personality. It’s this second usage, describing personality, that is most contentious. Sometimes it is our intent to… Read more »
Thanks Justiin!
There are times when certain groups do infact need more empathy at a given time then other groups. Lets just look at slavery as an example. That was most certainly a time when a certain group needed more empathy at the time when they were fighting for their freedom then other groups. That isn’t to say that we don’t all need to be actively engaging in empathy for others consistantly. However, there are points and times when certain groups are going to be needed to be given a little more then other groups. That’s how things change. There is a… Read more »
How does male disposability fit into the the topic the author was highlighting in his piece?
Very simple, Erin.
When you defend female abusers AS ABUSERS you ignore or otherwise trivialize the actions they take to victimize men in their lives. Rather than seeking to understand female abusers (to both help them and those they victimize) this article comes off as seeking to excuse female abusers by removing their agency and poo-pooing the damage they do.
do. The article isn’t really so much about female abusers specifically. Infact, Atalwin doesn’t take the direction to actually label specific abusive, concrete events that women might engage in. So we don’t really even know if the women being talked about are really abusive or not. All we know is that they are being labeled a certain way per how some men may define them or judge them. But that doesn’t mean that those men are right. We don’t know that information. Just because a man calls a woman a “psycho bitch from hell”, doesn’t mean she actually is a… Read more »
“But the reality is that Atalwin’s piece makes no mention of specific behaviors.” Umm what reality? The reality is it’s 2013 and he does make specific mention of behaviours. You did read this article right? “The usual way the story is told is by anecdotes of how long it took the guy to find out, the crazy things that happened in between, and the moment he got the hell out of there, sometimes followed by more stories of windows and windshields being smashed, physical attacks, or suicide threats.” Physical attacks = abuse, windows smash = abuse, suicide threats = emotional… Read more »
Archy – I would appreciate if you stopped asking me I read the articles I comment on. If you see me comment on an article, give me the same respect you give others and assume I’ve read it. I don’t comment on things I don’t read. Now that you know that, you no longer need to ask me if I read the article. If you think I’ve missed something, simply point it out and leave out the rhetorical questions about questioning my ability to read. The point I was trying to make is that I find that a lot of… Read more »
Ok, but will you at least admit the article did show abuse and violence in the passage I’ve highlighted? Did you miss it or did you read it differently? Because I see multiple guys reading it as indicative of abusive and violent women hence why we’re talking about it. What terms do you prefer people use? Every term will be critical of their actions and can be considered derogatory because her actions are derogatory. The word abusive is derogatory but also 100% accurate. I agree that psycho bitch, etc are overused which conflates the issue with people who aren’t abusive.… Read more »
Atalwin was pretty clear in saying that “sometimes”….”sometimes” the stories are followed by experiences of women becoming abusive and violent such as smashing windsheilds or threatening suicide? Atalwin didn’t make the assumption in his article that anytime a man called a woman a “psycho bitch from hell”, that she automatically must have been a “psycho bitch form hell” and was smashing windows. I have personally found that sometimes men throw around the terms “psycho” and “bitch” around way too loosely. That is also a form of abuse. However, for some reason, some believe it’s okay to abuse others this way.… Read more »
Abusive describes a person behaviour, bitch also describes a person’s behaviour. Both I think can be considered derogatory even if correct.
Derogatory, Adjective
Showing a critical or disrespectful attitude. – Saying they are abusive is showing a critical attitude, does that not make it derogatory? Calling someone abusive is also thrown around quite loosely.
I’m sorry but I fail to understand much of anything you are saying here. Most people understand the difference between describing abusive behavior and flat out simply calling someone a name.
You seem to fail to realize that in calling someone a name, THEY HAVE DESCRIBED ABUSIVE BEHAVIOUR, and that even saying someone is abusive is calling someone a name. How is that a hard concept to understand? Calling someone a pedophile can be describing behaviour, labelling their core, or simply just calling them a name. Same goes with calling someone abusive.
Calling someone a name does not describe anything. I am honestly not saying this to be cheeky but I could call you a name right now and it would describe absolutely nothing about you or your behavior. (I sincerely am not saying that as a put down but just as an example.) Calling someone a “bitch” or an “asshole” has no meaning at all. You can call someone a “bitch” for cutting you off while driving or for being rude to you OR simply because that person did something that was rude by accident but they didn’t even realize they… Read more »
I guess it differs in how I use it. I usually say stop being a bitch, asshole, whatever. When I say it I mean they are acting in a bitch/asshole manner. If I call someone a bitch or an asshole alone, I mean they act like an bitch/asshole a lot of the time and are negative people. I could call them negative, abusive people but it’s still derogatory to call them that as it is critical of their behaviour. “However, when you say something like, “Karen did x,y and z toward me and it wasn’t right,” *that* is describing the… Read more »
Exactly Archy, the thing about saying “stop being a bitch” is that it doesn’t really mean anything. How do you define “bitch”? What does “being a bitch” mean exactly? Do you mean stop being angry, stop yelling, stop slamming things, stop the sarcasm, stop the … what? This one “stop being a bitch” sentence can mean hundreds of things and how is the woman to know which one of those things you mean? “Bitch” is not really a behavior, it is not a specific action – it is a judgement, so a woman is angry, you say: stop being such… Read more »
“By saying ‘stop being a bitch,’ you are not giving the woman any information.”
I would say the exact same thing could be said to those behind the shaming of Nice GuysTM
If someone doesn’t understand the “information” behind “stop being a bitch” they are being willfully ignorant. Stop treating people (particularly women) like children. Any adult with a basic concept of situational contexts and social interaction will know what “stop being a bitch” means.
People here act like women don’t know the difference between acting like a reasonable adult and acting like a child who doesn’t know the difference between right and wrong. Women are adults. I treat them as such.
Perhaps Jimbo but if nothing else by calling them directly on what they doing they no longer have anything to hide behind. For example instead of “stop being such a bitch” you were to say, “stop being so hostile to other women like they are trying to steal me away from you” it takes away the “you’re just being mean to her because she’s a woman” defense. Something that just popped in my head. I don’t think differentiating being calling her on her behavior or calling her a name has much to do with sympathy. That’s just exact treatment that… Read more »
I agree Danny that ultimately the specific actions need to be discussed. I don’t think that telling someone “Stop being a psycho bitch” is the end of the conversation, but I do think it’s a legitimate start to a longer conversation with the other person. The Psycho bitch is an archetype that can be used when you want your audience (whoever it is) to nod their heads and think “I know exactly what he/she is describing”. In actual conversations or even written pieces I think we can agree that most of the time the narrator or author will continue with… Read more »
Jimbo said: “I agree Danny that ultimately the specific actions need to be discussed. I don’t think that telling someone “Stop being a psycho bitch” is the end of the conversation, but I do think it’s a legitimate start to a longer conversation with the other person.” It really isn’t. When have you ever known someone, even when someone was doing something offensive to you, become more open to hearing your concerns or side of the story when they are being told to stop being “insert negative name here”. Bitches are female dogs. They are not female humans. No matter… Read more »
Well said.
For some reason, when I reply to a comment, it’s going under the comment. “well said” was to Danny.
You are incorrect, Archy. Here is the difference. Are you describing the person, or their action?
@Justin, calling someone is abusive IS describing the person. Saying someone is acting abusive, or acting like a bitch is describing their action. I really don’t see how others can’t understand this simple concept? There is no way to describe a person in a negative way that isn’t derogatory, it’s the very definition of derogatory, you can only describe their actions.
It isn’t the same, Archy. As others have said here, the definitions of common derogatory terms are so loose as to be meaningless. It doesn’t tell me what the woman does when a man calls her a “psycho bitch from hell.” I have only the vaguest sense that she made him feel angry or threatened. To get him to describe the woman, I’d need to ask some questions so that he’d tell me what she had said or done, and what behaviors of hers were habitual. People will take away their own opinions of a person’s behavior, but that doesn’t… Read more »
That’s it exactly Justin. Those where great examples. By describing the actual behavior, you give an informative picture of what is really happening. But when calling someone a name, it’s just not logically useful. Although, I would argue that even when a man or woman behaves horribly, there is still no reason to call them names. We are still able to distiguish degrading or abusive behavior and hold that person accountable for that behavior without having to label the person a derogatory name. Because when you label people, you pit them into a box. If you tell a young man… Read more »
By the way, my brother is a good man now. If you knew him, you wouldn’t have a clue about his past history. Infact, you’d probably be shocked. It took him a while to get there and he is still making mistakes and learning. But he is trying. And I would be really shocked if anyone here said that they *always*, *always* treated everyone with perfect respect. I bet there are lots of situations each of us can think of right now where *we* treated others poorly on some scale. I know I have. I’ve made mistakes. That doesn’t make… Read more »
And isn’t saying she was abusive also loose? I’ve told people they’re “acting like an asshole/bitch/jerk/whatever by doing x y n z”. The added insulting word is to emphasize how fucking serious I am about their behaviour and how intolerable it is. I use the C word in extreme cases (in non-gendered, Australian fashion), because a C*** has a lot of weight behind that word here in Aus in describing a person who is acting badly. Eg, “You’re acting like a real c*** for cheating on your partner/abusing your partner/etc”. Saying they’re a C*** alone I agree is useless, it’s… Read more »
“Are you getting my point? There’s a difference between the limited-to-no info given when you call someone a name, and describing what they said and did to make you want to call them that. In the latter case, there’s something to talk about. In the former, you have to ask what happened.” Pedophile, abusive, child abuser, rapist, sexist, misandrist, misogynist, aggressive, violent, crazy, psycho, bitch, asshole, C***, jerk, dick, all of these words are loosely used but some are not considered as bad. I hope to see you never use any of those words, hell ANY negative words without describing… Read more »
Are you suggesting women need more empathy as a group, and are linking it to slavery? I am confused by your comment.
Sometimes women do need more empathy as a group. Sometimes men do need more empathy as a group. Sometimes, from my own personal perspective, it seems like anytime an article crops up about women and trying to get men to understand women better, some men are so involved with their own pain, they can’t bare to hear anything about things women go through. They shut that conversation down and bring up ways they feel in pain instead because that is what they are more interested in anyway. I am not “linking” slavery to the plight of women specifically. All I… Read more »
“Sometimes women do need more empathy as a group.
Sometimes men do need more empathy as a group.”
This is probably the best thing said in this discussion so far. I wish every respondent, including myself, had this point of view every time he or she contributed.
More empathy than who? Everyone needs more empathy overall, but in what usage is empathy here? To empathize alone? Why isn’t that already at max for everyone? Or is there a suggestion of support n attention to go with it?
There are times when certain groups do infact need more empathy at a given time then other groups. Lets just look at slavery as an example. That was most certainly a time when a certain group needed more empathy at the time when they were fighting for their freedom then other groups. That isn’t to say that we don’t all need to be actively engaging in empathy for others consistantly. However, there are points and times when certain groups are going to be needed to be given a little more then other groups. That’s how things change. There is a… Read more »
Your comparison with slavery is interesting.
Enslaving someone is abhorrent, and we should work to free people who have been slaves. However slaves come from almost every ethnic group, and both genders in approximately equal numbers (when agricultural slaves and bonded labourers are included).
The only thing that they have in common is that they are slaves.
The comparison is that we should work to help all people who have been abused, regardless of gender.
I didn’t make a comparison to slaverly! A poster said: “This is a stupid article. Empathy should NEVER be a skill applied to only a certain select group of people. It is for all or it is for none.. Please don’t try and defend “crazy bitches” behavior in a way that justifies their behavior” In response I disagreed with the idea that “empahthy should NEVER be a skill applied to only a certain select group of people. I responded by saying that emapthy should be practiced consistanty for all, but that there are times when a certain select group of… Read more »
I did not say that slaverly was like relationships between men and women. Please try and see and understand the distinction. I’ll be the first to admit that I thought you were trying to make such a comparison. However even though that is what you meant when you brought up slavery there is still the matter of using someone’s group affiliation as a reason to offer them more sympathy and attention where it is not due (and also using someone’s group affiliation as a reason to deny them sympathy and attention). I get it. Men have it worse. Sorry I… Read more »
FYI there is a series coming up on that:
Male Disposability: 1/19
https://goodmenproject.com/the-good-men-project-content-calendar/the-good-life-male-disposability-119/
Aileen Wuornos was not a slave, nor were her victims slave masters.
One of the most troubling aspects of the movie Monster is that the filmmakers completely dramatized the victims as all “johns,” when there is no proof that they all were.
@D…
I never said she was nor implied as much. However, I am simply stating that the woman had a very lengthy and brutal history of violence and rape committed against her by men beginning as a teen girl.
The men she murdered were victims of her violence and rage. No, they were not slave masters/owners.
“You seem to want people to show the same level of empathy and compassion for both the slave and the slave master. Sorry but it does not make sense to me.”
Holy Crap. Someone who could write THIS dreck is on the “Good Men” project? But I thought according to Jill at Feministe that TGMP was a misogynistic MRA heck-hole.
*head spins*
@Archy… “Men suffer extreme levels of violence, 4-6x more deaths from violence than women for one…” But Archy, we suffer these extreme levels of violence from other men. This is just human history. WWII was started and fought by men. Men have been forever killing one another and subjecting one another to all kinds of adversity… “It sickens me how far some will go to excuse a woman’s bad behaviour, especially when they don’t do the same for men. I do look forward to the articles on how abusive men are misunderstood, and how society forces them into abusive roles,… Read more »
The problem with this isn’t the scientific attempt to understand such people but the selective, and yes gendered, way in which these attempts are made. Yes Wuornos was abused as a child. So were plenty of male criminals who got nowhere the same considerations extended to them. You seem to want people to show the same level of empathy and compassion for both the slave and the slave master. Sorry but it does not make sense to me. And I think this is the problem. Despite people saying they want to show emapthy and compassion on a fair level the… Read more »
No, I feel empathy for victims and many abusers, many violent people, many serial killers most likely were victims at one stage. One of the most abusive people I’ve known grew up in an abusive household, who’s parents grew up in abusive households, cycle continuing generation after generation. I feel bad for what they went through, but I hate what they perpetrated. But what I see is people show empathy for female abusers and treat them as once a victim, but men they seem to overlook or forget the fact they’re probably victims too and show them no empathy. Why… Read more »
Couldn’t agree more. We should care about the individuals involved and what they have done / suffered.
Absolute nonsense. A quick check of google reveals that Bundy was born to a single mother and raised by his grandparents. His grandfather was known as a violent bully who once threw his daughter down a flight of stairs. His grandmother suffered from lifelong depression.
Most male serial killers had similar backgrounds. I have no special sympathy for Wuornos.
@D.
So what did Bundy suffer?
He was a college grad and also attended law school. By all accounts I see where he suffered nothing of the sorts of Aileen Wuornos.
Where can I buy an @Archie t-shirt? He’s my hero.
Lol. Thank-you.
Christmas Eve, I was at a department store where I was buying some last minute items. I was standing between a couple (male and female) who were obviously together. I think I encountered one of the psycho bitches this article is about. As I was looking at greeting cards, the guy to my left was opening cards and laughing out loud at some of them. Because he was speaking to the women to my right, I backed up a little. He held up a funny Christmas card, while laughing he said, “I should buy this one for you honey.” She… Read more »
You should have pulled him aside & confided- yeah I got tired of her bull shit too, as did the guy before me & the one before him.
@JA …if I were 30 years younger and good looking (to make the story believable, I would could have …
Tom B, I can understand your issue with the woman that responded disrespectfully to her partner. But I don’t understand the name calling. Can we not disapprove and talk about another’s behavior without restoring to name calling ourselves? When we name call, even in the face of what someone else has done, are we really any better then them? The woman in the store treated her partner horribly. Her behavior was cruel and selfish. But it doesn’t justify us calling her a name. And this is really the distinction we need to be aware of. We should be able to… Read more »
I ask again: Can we not disapprove and talk about another’s behavior without resoring to name calling ourselves? What is the point in the name calling? Why not focus on the behavior and the discussion of the behavior without being derogatory ourselves?
Erin, I agree that we can describe behavior without flattening an individual to a label. The title of this article labels in that way, but as a way of drawing attention to the way this behavior prevents us from feeling empathy for the woman. I’ve looked at Tom B’s comment and I don’t understand why you’re asking him about the name calling.
“I think I encountered one of the psycho bitches this article is about.”
Personally I think the label is correct due to the people in question, they ARE bitches in every sense of the word (well apart from being a female dog). But it’s descriptive, maybe psycho female asshole is better? Psycho female of aggressive crazy behaviour?
What do you call a guy who does the same thing? because they do sometimes. I think it comes from different origins, and that’s a different conversation. But certainly “Psycho asshole from hell” might be best for both.
I think Atalwin had to call this article that, though, because it is a common phrase and we need to see where it comes from and why we relate to the “phenomenon” like we do.
Psycho bastard from hell? Not sure. In Aus we simply call both c&nt’s.
Archly, Since you’re not from the US, I just wanted to point out that I suspect the larger issue here is being missed by a cute rhetorical trick. The argument is subtlety advanced that the term discussed here is unfairly gendered and thus problematic, in other words, if there is no equivalent “male” term, then this is inappropriate. But this ignores the reality of American culture, wherein it has been argued for 40 years that men are *by definition* controlling. This is argued overtly in Academia by people who still grant credence to writers like Dworkin and MacKinnon, and argued… Read more »
Good point Mike L.
Wow, very very good point.
If anyone’s wondering if there’s a double standard, just look at the way people use the phrase “psycho bitch from hell.” I’m sure some women would put that on bumper stickers on their cars and feel a sense of pride and rebelliousness by calling themselves that. It’s a source of a feeling of empowerment for some women, no doubt. Even people who would never use that phrase might find it amusing that a woman calls herself that. (I guarantee a woman who calls herself Psycho Bitch From Hell on her online dating profile will still get lots of interest.) A… Read more »
>What do you call a guy who does the same thing?
Incarcerated.
Joanna and Justin, I agree that Atalwin had to be honest about the name calling to talk about the subject. Context is everything. Justin, the reason I was bothered by Tom B was because he said these two things: “I think I encountered one of the psycho bitches this article is about.” and, “I wanted to pull him aside and tell him to dump the bitch while he can.” Atalwin is using the negative name phrase to actually break old patterns and bring attention to unhelpful mentalities. Tom B is using the name calling in a derogatory fashion to keep… Read more »
@Erin, I can understand why you feel the term disturbs you and I agree that we should avoid using such labels on people in general. As I said, I felt comfortable using the term simply because it was in the artic les title and my use of the term when describing the women was, in my eyes, an example of how some women behave. What I didn’t say was that moment before she made the comment, the two appeared to be on great terms with one another. In fact, my thought to myself was that they were a cute couple… Read more »
Everyterm used would be considered derogatory because it’s critical of her actions wouldn’t it?
Tom B, I still don’t really understand why the title of an article could sway your own comfort level. I also don’t think that the author of the article used the term in any facet of the way you felt comfortable using it. The author was using to address the problem of using the term, you used the term to label the woman derogatorily. You wanted to degraded the woman because you were angry with the way she degraded her partner. But that doesn’t really do anything. It doesn’t define her behavior in anyway that actually helps anyone. It doesn’t… Read more »
Erin, thank you for your persistence in responding to commenters on this article, myself included.
I have never been accused of giving up on a good discussion Justin! I
I think the dialogue is important. But sometimes it feels like running on a treadmill. Like we really aren’t even getting anywhere. It seems like if a man thinks a woman’s a bitch, then she is a bitch and should be labled as such. Case closed.
In my opinion (and you know what they say about opinions) .. women are not held accountable as they should be. Domestic violence, many women know that because they’re women that they will more then likely be viewed as the victim. Women who turn ugly in relationships … I guarantee you that they have a support group of women who will nurture their behaviors if not commend them for what they do. I can guarantee you as the guy is spilling his guts about how she’s behaved, she’s sitting with a group of women patting her hand and telling her… Read more »
My thoughts: 1. Nasty people are nasty people, regardless of gender. 2. Attractive, abusive women get away with being abusive simply because they are attractive. Often from the very start. That short, dumpy, overweight woman? No one’s going to take her home from the party. 3. Some men — just like some women — have the perverse desire to make their lives one big Melrose Place drama. Seriously, they cannot live without the beautiful psycho bitch from hell, because everyone else seems so boring. A male friend of mine is like this, which leads me to … 4. It’s all… Read more »
1. Nasty people are nasty people, regardless of gender. Agreed. 2. Attractive, abusive women get away with being abusive simply because they are attractive. Often from the very start. That short, dumpy, overweight woman? No one’s going to take her home from the party. I have to disagree with this bit. Being physically attractive CAN sway how a woman’s abuse is accepted (much in the same way that being rich/power CAN do the same for men). However just as simply being male gets men off the hook for stuff being female does the same for women. 3. Some men —… Read more »
And Carrie Underwood’s song “Before He Cheats” – is a cautionary tale of a man getting what he had coming…
Could you imagine a song where a man kills her cat & trashes her Miata?
Did Carry kill an animal in the song? I don’t remember that. But your comments reminded me of that movie Fatal Attraction. There is a lot of negative elements in the music industry. There aren’t any songs, and no I can’t imagine there being any songs about a man that kills her cat & trashes her Miata. But there are a lot of songs about bitches, hoes and golddiggers performed and written by men. There are a lot of songs that talk very derogatory about women. Dare I even say that there are probably more songs that speak derogatory of… Read more »
And yet the discourse that is supposed to be about fair treatment for all actively ignores one set of those songs because of who they target.
You can dare whatever you want…
Somehow, it seems, I’ve heard of more men killing her cat and more of her trashing his vehicle, music and fishing & hunting gear…
What other artists have you heard songs like that from? I don’t listen to a lot of country music. Perhaps that is the disparity? Like I said above, I think music about bitches, hoes and golddiggers is much more mainstream and popular then the example you gave. So no, you most likely won’t ever hear a song where the man gets “back” by killing her cat (although Carry never killed an animal in her song so I don’t really get your example there) or trashing her ride. But you hear plenty of music that talks about women derogatorly and sexually.… Read more »
I listen to a channel that plays electro house, dubstep, “gangster rap”, trance, etc. The hour for hip hop n gangster rap came on, some songs were benign but then it was bitch this, bitch that, 3 songs in a row saying bitch and I changed off that channel until later when dubstep started up again. I dunno what it is with this fetish for calling hte women bitches in those songs because the rest of the lyrics sound like they’re talking about women they really really like and even love at times. RnB I think tends to be about… Read more »
Women aren’t just called “bitches” in those songs. You can hear that word on prime time non-cable TV. “Bitch” is a very common word tossed around in our culture very easily. It is not okay to call people names based on their race or ethnicty. It is okay to call women names based on the fact that they are female. It is okay in our society to call women “bitches”.
There are quite a few gendered insults that seem to be ok to call people, both male n female. Sexist remarks don’t seem to be as taboo as racial/ethnic remarks. I think language is probably relaxing quite a bit, the F word is pretty common now too.
A) Never said there were not negative names attached to men. This doesn’t mean we can’t address the negative names women are called. That is after all what *this* artilce is about. B) Names don’t have to be “ok” if we don’t accept them and don’t use them as individuals. C) I stand by my point regrading how easy it is to call women names based on the fact that they are female in ways we don’t call people names (or shouldn’t) based on their race or ethnicity. D) I am not making a case right now for the F… Read more »
Actually I say fuck quite a lot, and I hear the f word far more than I hear bitch. Depends on my mood whether I say F word or fuck, I’m odd like that but sometimes I randomly censor words online but didn’t feel it necessary in this article for bitch because it’s said so often already. You can be heavily degrading to someone without using the word bitch. Calling the person an abusive n violent person IS DEGRADING. Calling them a bitch is also degrading, either way you’re applying a label to the person based off what you know… Read more »
I’m not really intersted in another circular discussion with you. Simply stated, we do not agree. There is really no more to be discussed. You are free to keep calling women bitches and conduct yourself toward others how you choose. I will continue to live by my own code of ethics where I do my best to not use name calling toward women or men. I want to live my life by respecting others and adding value to their lives. Not be further ripping people apart when instead I could be working to a solution to fix the problem or… Read more »
Question, would it be ok to say they are acting LIKE a bitch vs calling them a bitch? The former being describing their behaviour?
I do not agree with or participate in, in advocating for any kind of name calling. Whether it’s “bitch” or “like a bitch”. Both are obviously ways to imply and degrade another human being. You are free to call other people names. I personally like to stay away from that. It is not my place to call other people names. I don’t enjoy or like degrading others. I do enjoy honesty about one’s behaviors or experiences and we are fully able to discuss one’s behavior as abusive and violent without degrading them ourselves through name calling. I don’t understand why… Read more »
Erin Sometimes its proper to look at the context and rather than think of it solely based on name calling, maybe view it on behaviour acknowledgement. I think 3a is an appropriate word for the behaviour being discussed. Though it is commonly used for a woman it can also be used to describe a males behaviour as well. bitch [bich] Show IPA noun 1. a female dog: The bitch won first place in the sporting dogs category. 2. a female of canines generally. 3. Slang. a. a malicious, unpleasant, selfish person, especially a woman. b. a lewd woman. c. Disparaging… Read more »
John T, I’m not sure if I totally get what your saying so please correct me if I am wrong. Are you saying that it’s sometimes appropriate to call someone a “bitch”? Could you tell me at what times it’s appropriate to call someone this? Is there ever an appropriate time to call someone the “n” word because they are African American? Why is it okay to sometimes call women “bitches”? Yes, I have heard “bitch” used to sometimes describe men. However, it still is and always will be a feminine name first, no matter how many men use it… Read more »
It’s an extra added slight because it’s almost like saying that anything connected to the feminine is the most degrading thing ever to be. I actually find it really offensive personally that men will take stereotypically feminine names and prescribe them to men. It’s not only insulting to men but it’s insulting to women. Now if only more people would take all this deep thought and insight about why it’s wrong to call people bitches and apply it to the willy nilly freedom that is used when calling people dicks. I’ve seen people almost literally in one breath talk about… Read more »
Is this article about those people Danny?
Look, you totally have a point and a one worthy of discussion. But why do you feel it’s important to bring up that point in an article that’s main focus is about the name calling that gets throw about women?
I’d love to read an article of yours that addresses the point you’ve brought up.
I just fear that we all (and I am totally included in that), get so caught up in our own pain that we forget to acknowledge other’s.
Is this article about those people Danny? I don’t recall trying to say it was but adding a side comment. But why do you feel it’s important to bring up that point in an article that’s main focus is about the name calling that gets throw about women? Because reading this comment string is what prompted the thought. If you’re so worried about a hijack then feel free not to respond. I just fear that we all (and I am totally included in that), get so caught up in our own pain that we forget to acknowledge other’s. A valid… Read more »
I’d love to read an article of yours that addresses the point you’ve brought up. Ah then let me oblige. At my blog (www.dannyscorneroftheuniverse.blogspot.com) there are two posts where I’ve gone into this. (I can’t give direct links because I’m at work and pull up my blog. Sorry.) First there is the someone recent “A jerk by any other name….”. I actually did this as a bit of a response post to a comment that was left here at GMP saying that “dick as become gender neutral”. Second (and a lot older) is “Unless we’re talking about the body part….”.… Read more »
Danny said: “Because reading this comment string is what prompted the thought.” Most of my comments have been centered around the topic of this article. Which is about how negative names are reinforced toward women. I think closer to the truth is that you care more about the pain you experience surrrounding negative names about men and that is why you brought it into a discussion that is suppose to be about negative names that sorround women. But identifying names that surround women does not in any way suggest that the issues men face are less. All it does is… Read more »
I think closer to the truth is that you care more about the pain you experience surrrounding negative names about men and that is why you brought it into a discussion that is suppose to be about negative names that sorround women. Nope. I’ve told you the answer. It’s up to you to believe it or not. If you don’t care to talk about negative names that sorround women, then simply don’t respond to the thread. Or if you think my mention is out of line then feel free to not respond yourself. I’m not saying I don’t fall into… Read more »
Danny said: ‘I agree that there will be times and spaces where it may be all about men or all about women or whatever group at hand.’ Being that you believe this, how is that reflected in your comments to this article? Danny said: ‘Does making a given time and space about one group excuse the denial of the pains of another group? No mention is not inherent denial but denial should not be passed off as no mention.’ I don’t understand. You either believe that each group needs to be given their time and place or you don’t believe… Read more »
‘Being that you believe this, how is that reflected in your comments to this article?’ Right here when I said, “Does making a given time and space about one group excuse the denial of the pains of another group?” ‘You either believe that each group needs to be given their time and place or you don’t believe that and you think that all groups must be talked about at the same time. ‘ The former. ‘This second comment of yours seem to suggest that you think that one group shouldn’t be ignored in a discussion of another group.’ That’s not… Read more »
There are also movies. In the movie Addicted To Love, Meg Ryan’s character does some really nasty things.
Couldn’t agree more.
We can try to understand, but the purpose should be to work out how to prevent it. Not to give abusers excuses.
We men just are not fully aware of all the restrictions society has place on women. Yesterday, I was reading in my local public library and decided to move to the Quiet Study area. A young woman was in there alone with her legs parted but wearing jeans. She was very comfortable. I did not consider he posture indecent. She just comfortable. But, when I entered she immediately changed her posture and crossed her legs. Now, do we men have to do this? No. When I sat down, I did not have to pay attention to my posture at all.… Read more »
You’re quite right, Jules. Getting more men to notice what you have, is how we will slowly change the culture so that women no longer feel uncomfortable being comfortable when a man enters the room.
No, getting women and society to not see men and their sexuality as base, subhuman, and vile will do that. Teaching this to our daughters will do that.
Whether or not a man notices a woman is not comfortable (anymore) has no bearing on whether or woman feels comfortable or not.
Jules, I cannot express how grateful I am to you for noticing this. This is my life, too. How do I walk in a room where there are men compared to when there are not? When it’s just women, I’m open and smiling and talkative. When there are men, I have to be more closed-off. How do I talk to men vs how I talk to women? To make my life safer and more comfortable, I am very very different around men, just like the woman in the library of whom you’re speaking. I’m a total guy’s girl, so it’s… Read more »
Why do we have to read something into everything. I’ve sat with my legs apart and simply change positions. At times, I cross my legs, other times I don’t. It depends on the furniture I’m sitting in. When I would go to a meeting, I was conscious as to how I would be sitting, I didn’t slouch or kick my feet out. Could it be that this women was simply changing how she was sitting because it was comfortable? If I sit in a relaxed position, I find myself getting sleepy, so I sit up. If I sit up when… Read more »
@Archy…. “Women are taught to be ladylike and not spread their legs…” This is precisely my point! It is a restriction that has been placed upon them. This young woman (mid to late 20s) did not find me threatening as she gave me a smile and we exchanged “hello and happy holidays.” But, why is that a man can come out unshaven and go grocery shopping and not be viewed with disgust while a woman must shave her legs, do her hair,……? Society EXPECTS women to always look and act pretty and “ladylike.” We men do NOT have such high… Read more »
We men do NOT have such high expectations placed upon us to look and behave in a certain manner.
you are in the middle of discussion so perhaps you are just thinking in terms of that, but outside of it. that is just clearly not accurate – eg. all those ‘man up or be a loser unworthy of woman articles’ that the young men are subjected too.
Even when we violate some norm, the criticism is not nearly as harsh.
…Im curious for what norm have you violated and found this to be true
” But, why is that a man can come out unshaven and go grocery shopping and not be viewed with disgust while a woman must shave her legs, do her hair,……? Society EXPECTS women to always look and act pretty and “ladylike.” Naaaaay! I totally disagree with you. If a guy dont fix himself up, he is classified as a creep and in certain cases maybe even the police is callen. The only exception for a guy looking sloppy is if he is either a military or a blue collar worker. “We men do NOT have such high expectations placed… Read more »
Sure, but will people move away from you in fear because your legs are unshaven? Will women clutch their purses tighter on the elevator with you because you look a little unkempt or un-ladylike? Will having unshaven legs increase the likelihood that you’ll be suspected of being a shoplifter?
I doubt it.
I hate to get into “who has it worse” territory, but in this particular case (shaving expectations) I think being thought of as physically dangerous because of your appearance is worse than being thought of as “unladylike.”
@Joanna… You’re Welcome. Often we go through life not really paying attention to the little things that are really BIG things. I often wonder if some of these postures that women adopt are really all that comfortable to women? My friend I am seeing told me as a little girl she and her sisters were forbidden to “duck walk.” She was taught by her Mom, “as a girl you ALWAYS place one foot DIRECTLY in front of the other….” Well I tried this and it is not too comfortable. But, I am guy. I just long for the day when… Read more »
Absolutely!! As a man I have to tip toe around in fear of being a creep or excessively aggressive or an over confident “prick” .You think being a photographer is stressful when dealing with children or women. Try being a male massage therapist,in our office I have four female colleagues. My clientele is about 90% adult male “our” clientele is almost equal in genders. About 20% are children ranging from 10 to 16. I am the only one married and the only one with children. Yet a presumption is made,if any one of us will be inappropriate to a child… Read more »
That must be extremely stressful. It’s sickening how much distrust there is of men, it’s pretty much required now to have chaperones to cover your ass.
Archy, Thank you for presenting yourself as someone others can be secure around. Unfortunately, our hyper-sensitive, sexual harassment, pedophile fearing society…quite frankly, sucks. It is the few bad-apples that mess it up for the majority of decent people. Girls have always been taught to be cautious around strange men, for their own protection. One quick story, my 13 yr old niece was recently shopping with her parents for Christmas presents for each other, so they separated to different departments. A teenage boy approached her and sweet-talked her into the men’s dept. and he started asking her all sorts of personal… Read more »
Yeah it’s pretty sad. I wish people were given more encouragement to trust their instincts but not be so afraid, I grew up afraid after being bullied n abused but I’ve come to learn that fear harms me more because I miss out on experiences. The people I use to avoid being afraid of them, now I actually talk to them and have made friends with some and they’re great people. But it’s unfair for all of us to live in fear, I feel like a sense of community is diminishing because people are too afraid to say hi to… Read more »
I teach religious education to 16 7th graders and am the only male religious ed teacher for 1st through 7th grade. There are two male teachers for 8th grade. My class is 9 boys and 7 girls. I take extra precautions in my class and am always on my toes as to how something I could say or do could be misconstrued. I’ve raised two kids (boy and girl) and have two grandsons yet I’m always watching what I say or do. In a time where we want more men to step up and be good examples for kids, many… Read more »
Archy, Jules, Michael, Tom, All the precautions you do as men, are AWESOME! Those behaviors and actions you mentioned, like watching your words, posture, presence, or bringing an assistant into a massage or photo shoot, etc, make us feel safe and secure. Thank you! I know it’s a pain at times, but those behaviors send messages that you are trying to create a safe and secure environment and present yourselves as ‘safe’ and ‘trustworthy’ men. Hallalujah. As a woman, I naturally look to men for safety and security…always have, always will. I would like to be more trusting of men… Read more »
Would you also agree it’s awesome for women to take actions to make others feel safer? Because I find these actions very dehumanizing, I HATE I absofuckinglutely HATE that I can’t just hug my cousins kids and play with them like the other women in my family do, I hate that feeling I have when there is a kid in trouble and I am scared to help them because their parents may think I caused the trouble. I hate that it’s made me so nervous that I don’t even talk to strange women much for fear they will get uncomfy… Read more »
Archy—I try to make men feel safer, by not wearing revealing clothes, leaving my office door open, eye contact and friendly nod, trying not to put men in compromising situations, like the contractor in the other post…I stepped outside to speak with him so we both felt more at ease, or if I know a man is married, I always inquire about his wife and family. As far as your cousin’s kids, freaking play with them! Rough-house, get engaged in their lives, take them on a photo shoot, teach them photography, or how to capture kangaroos?? Or whatever you Aussies… Read more »
@Joan, I think that’s partly my problem is that in my adult life I’ve rarely been around kids so I don’t have that comfort level with them.
@Joan “Archy—I try to make men feel safer, by not wearing revealing clothes, leaving my office door open, eye contact and friendly nod, trying not to put men in compromising situations, like the contractor in the other post…I stepped outside to speak with him so we both felt more at ease, or if I know a man is married, I always inquire about his wife and family. ” I wouldn’t say never wear revealing clothing, just be mindful that it can be distracting. I hate to say it but I was at a meeting and someone wore a shortish dress… Read more »
Archy, I try to look pretty and presentable, but not uber-sexual…I’d rather save that look for special occasions. Many women present themselves very sexually and they get a lot of attention…it works. In my opinion, it’s okay to look at women and even blantantly look, especially if she has her skirt hiked up. If were a guy, I’d even whistle or mention it if you can see up her skirt. Say “Hey, nice panties!” Quite frankly, if she’s bothered by a man’s attention, she’ll fix herself or call you a creep. Be prepared with a witty comeback. Women need to… Read more »
@Joan, I wouldn’t ever whistle (I’d consider that harassment and wrong). I’ve wondered if it would be appropriate to quietly mention someones underwear is showing but then I realize it’ll probably be thought of wrongly and creepy vs my intention of informing them of their wardrobe malfunction. I look but don’t want them feeling uncomfy. “You mentioned in a different reply about the labels of ‘psycho’ and ‘stalker-esque’. I used those words and you’re absolutely right, there’s no reason I should harshly label other’s intensity of feelings or actions. I don’t care for labels placed on me either.” Yeah we… Read more »
I have to disagree with you, Joan – blatantly staring at someone is rude. I have largish breasts and men stare sometimes. It is offensive and creeps me out. I don’t wear anything that is tight or shows cleavage and they still leer at my chest. What am I supposed to wear, a burka? Frankly, I hate it. If you are going to stare, for God’s sake be discreet about it. Don’t make me feel like I’m the star of a private porn movie running in your head. Yuck.
For what it’s worth, I think parents are terrified of everyone these days. I’ve stopped cooing over babies in the grocery store becsuse several friends have told me they hate it when strangers of either gender notice their babies. It makes them nervous even if the stranger is a woman. The world is a crappy place these days.
@Sarah Radford, it’s no wonder anxiety is so high when we are raising people to be afraid. WTF happened to people’s sense of community? I would want my child to know the neighbours because if I am sick, injured, I want them to feel safe enough to go ask them for help if needs be. It’s a lonely place out there if we raise our kids to be so afraid of the boogeymen, when most people are most likely going to protect that kid. Hell if I see someone try harm a kid, I’ll try to speak up n intervene… Read more »
“When she skillfully acts sexy, playful, and wild, she can get a lot of attention fast…but it is a role that comes with a lot of rules, restrictions, and limitations….” So true… I walked down the hall in my doctor’s office last week…when it’s just the nurses around, I quietly go into the exam room and try not to disturb anyone in the hushed hallways…last time my doctor was standing in the hallway looking right at me and I made eye contact and gave him a blinding smile (which was my pleasure as he is extremely talented and handsome), which… Read more »
“(which was my pleasure as he is extremely talented and handsome)” Would you do this to the not-so-good looking man in a less talented role? I try to avoid eye-contact with strangers where possible, although some women smile at me first and I smile back, which leaves me confused as to what made them smile first. I avoid with both male n female, if I am alone I feel more vulnerable and both genders can make me feel nervous especially if they’re in a group and look aggressive (usually drunk people). If they smile though it puts me more at… Read more »
@Archy: Honestly, I rarely do the Farrah Fawcett blinding smile at any man that I do not know well…In recent years, I have noticed that even just a casual smile at some guy that I have just met at some social function can trigger him to be too clingy or touchy-feely with me (even with married guys who may have their wives nearby!)…..So recently, I have been on my guard and more distant and keep my friends/hubby close to deflect the people who might glom onto me… I make an exception for my surgeon (due to “General Hospital” hero-like worship,… Read more »
Leia, I am more guarded too. I have smiled at strange men and the next thing I know they’re clingy. Yes, even the married guys mistake friendly smiles and small talk, for advances. I work in Human Resources and smiling, having a welcoming attitude, employee praise and feedback is critical, but it can backfire even with people you know. I complimented a man on his work and WOW did I regret it. Ahhh!! He was my new cling-on-best-friend. He revealed later that he had never heard such nice things and his wife never complimented or praised him at home. I… Read more »
This is partially a pretty sad view of the women he knows though if you’re the only one to give him praise and actually treat him nicely. I’d be pissed at those women for being such cold-hearted asses if that’s really the case, why aren’t more people positive n encouraging? Would he really have turned stalker-esque? Or we he just a full-on-friend? I have someone atm who is like a cling-on-best-friend, but I don’t feel they will stalk me ever, more just they are lonely and in need of a decent friend and so showing them some respect and being… Read more »
Archy, my heart went out to him. Especially after I met his wife and realized how bad he had it at home. She was a cold wife, maybe not psycho, but very callous. At one work function, she sat at table in front of his peers and proceeded to publicly bash his manhood, boss him around, and mock him. Then she brought up their sex-life and informed everybody how she hated sex and how terrible it was, etc. I met her on other occassions, it was the same callousness. You try living with monster-wife, you’d cling-on to the first nice… Read more »
@Leica…. Yeah, I really don’t get this in men. Just because a woman says “Hello!” or offers me a compliment on my tie does not mean she want to screw me. How can anyone who is grown conclude such. When I am out, I am very engaging with women. They trend to like me. But, I cannot assume they all want to have sex with me. Quite the opposite. Very few of them want sex. They are just being cordial and friendly. Even a relatively inexperienced man like me knows when a woman has a romantic interest as oppose to… Read more »
Jules– Yeah, I wish you could teach a class or something for the clueless guys that I know… It was weird because we were at a HS alumni event and we were talking about commodities and the economy…and this Ivy League guy was talking about how Hank Paulson wrote a great book about the housing crisis…and blah blah blah…while he is talking to me and my friend and SIL about various things (including his lovely wife and awesome 4 kids), he is moving closer into my personal space and talking energetically (spit was flying at one point!)….I kept backing up… Read more »
Jules, Leia’s spot-on and you must teach that class, because guys get the wrong impression quite often. Kind gestures get misread all the time. 1.) I was at a gas station and a man and I started a conversation about business-stuff. He seemed interested in our conversation, so I handed him a business card. I was away from the phone all that day. When I got, home he left 4 messages on my machine…each one was increasingly personal. The last message sounded like he was in love with me. Talk about psycho. I called him back and was crystal-clear that… Read more »
I think it’s outrageous that men think they may do more than make one single gesture in the direction of “I’d like to date you” when they meet a woman under non-romantic conditions. That it must come from an entitlement the man feels for the woman’s attention. I’ve heard of women being hit on by police and other first responders. That anyone would hit on someone in crisis is beyond me. It’s just not appropriate. Fellas, you don’t have a right to get her number.
Justin–thank you. I never looked at it from that perspective that a strange man may feel ‘entitled’ to my attention.
I can understand his ‘entitlement’ to my attention if were dating, but not a stranger or non-romantic settings.
Agreed, crisis is the worst time to hit on a girl.
I’m way off topic of the article, but it appears many posts are off topic.
I’d have to watch you interact with them to see what signals you were showing, possibilities include speaking in an extremely flirty manner. I know of a woman here who has guys who like her a lot and seems confused as to why, she sends pretty potent sexual signals from what I hear and even discusses her underwear late at night with the guys who she only thinks of as a friend, yet that guy likes her. I put it down to inexperience for her and possibly attention seeking, she’s been warned by her close female friend to stop flirting… Read more »
Archy, thank you for input. I never handed my business card out again in a non-work setting to prevent mis-reads. You’re right, he was probably just a normal guy caught up in feelings. My friends would not refer to me as a flirty girl or a sex-kitten, but they call me the smart, sassy, sensitive, cerebral-type. (I’m 5’9′ (69cm), 125 lbs, blonde, blue eyes, tall, thin, flat-chested, wear glasses, 43yrs.) I don’t consider myself attractive in comparison to all the beauties online, so my insecurity makes me fluctuate when I’m with a strange man…but it depends on the topic. If… Read more »
“I think both men and women are gun-shy when it comes to relationships…we’ve all been pushed to our limits at times.” I agree. Makes it difficult when both are gun-shy, someone has to take the plunge sadly. “I haven’t experienced the abuse or bullying that you speak of and you seem like a decent, level-headed guy, I’m sorry you had to battle those issues, but it probably makes you more compassionate towards others.” Thanks, it taught me a lot so I guess there are positives in the negative life experiences. I value the ability to read body language as I… Read more »
Men have a different set of social responses/cues than women do.. City streets, get the look people in the face / split second eye contact evaluation glance. any more and that gang-banger will be insulted and any less and your in the prey category. Having to be “Hard” faced most of the time in public is wearing….maybe the mean streets of the old time NYC set my ways, but there are so many times where anything other than stone faced just doesn’t seem acceptable for men.
If you went to a feminist blog where they were talking about domestic violence perpetrated by men and said something like:
“We women just are not fully aware of all the restrictions society has placed on men.” Then talked about some of the ways that the patriarchy sucks for men; what reaction would you get?
There is a place to have all of these conversations, but it is not on an article about domestic violence.
“But, when I entered she immediately changed her posture and crossed her legs. Now, do we men have to do this? No. When I sat down, I did not have to pay attention to my posture at all. So, I could be totally comfortable with no worry.” Yes because men don’t go through adjustments in behaviour around women. Seriously people, logic, use it. You adjusted your behaviour on your interpretation of what she was thinking and her body language, the fact that you noticed it means you aren’t 100% calm especially as you have thought about it now and thought… Read more »
@Archy… I don’t know Archy. I personally have never experienced any of what you are speaking. Maybe it is due to my disarming body language. Women say I am very “warm and non threatening”. I often get smiles from many women. One of the things I had hope we could understand from this post is that their are DAILY little things that women must do to conform to a societal norm. The young woman in the library is a perfect example. Why should she have to change her posture just because a man walked into the room? She was not… Read more »
@Jules- “DAILY little things that women must do to conform to a societal norm” & men and children don’t? What would you call fashion & grooming? Sometimes an “open and chatty” woman is looking to get laid- that and other societal clues ie dress & grooming are cues- sometimes they aren’t- but I think that we can all agree that sullen & uncomunicative rarely get’s anyone in anyone’s pants. Some men & women are ham fisted at further investigating whether the woman in question wants to get it wet, some are more suave… Some pick up on the hints pro… Read more »
@J.A. Drew Diaz…
So, you’re telling me that today men have to conform to fashion and grooming?
I am 50 years old. I take a lot of pride in my attire, grooming, and hygiene. However, I am not a metro sexual man. Today, I have never seen so many poorly dressed and groomed men in my life!!! Hell, I even see guys in their 20s wearing socks and sandals. Wtf!
So just what fashion and grooming are you speaking, exactly?
Both have as much pressure to conform, I see slobbish men AND WOMEN. A lot of what I feel is based on my own paranoia of never wanting to make someone uncomfy but it does affect me, and I know it affects other men. There’s also the real threat around children of being seen as a pedophile so many of us don’t interact with kids as freely. The older generations don’t seem to carry this burden, I’ve only noticed in people who are around 20-30 at the moment (including me). We grew up with slutwalks, etc drummed into our heads… Read more »
I would argue that men have to worry more about being viewed as worthless and cast off by society.
If you have an argument to present, please consider making it to this call for submissions on the disposability of men.
Will think about it thanks.
JTCC, I think both women and men equally experience the issue you mention about self worth in society’s eyes. But I think the things that society targets and ties men’s self worth are different from the things that targets and ties women’s self worth.
Well said, Archy.
Hmm, have you considered the possibility there was no social convention going on, but you almost caught her in a public masturbation session using the crotch part of her pants, and she merely hastily and embarrassedly repositioned herself not to be found out?
Was she blushing?
There’s some advantages to not having a raging erection and not ejaculating… every time during orgasm.