Alyssa Royse was enjoying the year-end round up of sexy male celebrity bulges—until she realized that this is sexual objectification, just like what she fights against every day.
I will admit right upfront that I totally enjoyed starting my morning by lying in bed with a hot cup of coffee and looking at pictures of men’s penises outlined by clothing that accentuated the obvious in just the right way. I now know with relative certainty that Jon Hamm is circumcised and his penis is bigger than the penises I enjoy the most. Also, some Swedish Olympic athlete appears to poses a penis of proportion and design that I dream about —average sized, not circumcised.
But as I was flipping through the images on The Frisky’s list of The 12 Biggest Bulges of 2012, I began to feel a little uncomfortable, and not just because my sweetie had just started his 24-hour shift at the fire station, leaving me to deal with Swedish penis fantasies on my own. It bothered me because these men did not ask to have their penises judged and evaluated when they were simply walking down the street.
It went deeper than that, actually. I’ve spent a lot of my life trying to combat sex-negative images about women’s bodies in the media, such as the seemingly non-stop lists of celebrities with the best butts or hottest tits—lists that objectify women by focusing only on their sexy bits, and only those that fit a narrow description of what’s “hot”.
And there I was, doing the same thing to Joe Manganiello.
For the most part, these guys were just out doing their thing. Jon Hamm was walking down the street, not posing. There were some rowers rowing, runners running, rock stars doing whatever weird thing it is they do. I don’t have any idea what a Channing Tatum is, or what he was doing, but he was in there too. David Beckham was posing, but he was wearing a modesty panel, so we couldn’t really tell what he was packing. (But I’ll admit, I’m an ab girl, so I didn’t really care.)
The point is, they were not asking to have their junk judged any more than bikini-clad celebs on vacation are. Yet when candid photos of women in bikinis are published and judged, there is tremendous outcry about how women are objectified and treated in the media: about how wrong it is to do that to us, about how it harms our self-esteem and creates unrealistic expectations. All of which I believe, in every bone and fiber of my body.
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So where was the outcry at men being objectified this way? I thought I’d look for some in the comments on the article. None. I thought I’d look on Facebook. None. So I posted it on my own wall and asked about the double standard.
As I (unfortunately) expected, there was a lot of suggestion that it’s okay to do it to guys because: A) they do it to us, B) it doesn’t bother them, C) men don’t fear for their safety around women, and D) men like being known for their prodigious packages.
I’m not sure I buy all of that. Or any of it, really.
“But he started it” has never made retaliatory action okay. Nor does it change the fundamental dynamic. If what we want is LESS sexual objectification of people and a more holistic approach to appreciating humans for the complex creatures that they are, then this is counterproductive.
I’m pretty sure it does bother some men. After all, men are humans too. It hasn’t served most men well to be constantly told that to be the best, they have to be strong, rich, fast, handsome, and emotionless. Feminism did a terrific job of illustrating how women are much more than the damsel in distress in need of rescue by Prince Charming. YAY! However, we haven’t really tackled the Prince Charming part of this fallacy, and right now, the Prince Charming is fucking us all. I’m curious if when men see things like this, it has the same impact on their body image that critiques of female bodies have on women.
I think there is more to a sense of safety in the world than just knowing no one is going to rape you. (And let’s be clear, women do rape men, and it’s wrong when they do it too.) Safety, in a larger sense, means that you feel accepted, like you will be protected, like you don’t have to prove and defend yourself all the time. It seems to me that men have it way easier in this regard. However, making them feel less safe and secure isn’t going to make the world more safe and secure for us as women, because safety and respect is not a zero-sum game.
If we’re not choosing to show them off, our genitals really need to be off the table for discussion. They are, arguably, our most private and intimate parts. They, and the things we do with them, are the parts that society has instilled the most shame on as it is. As horrible as we are to women in the media—and we are horrible—I have never seen a woman’s labia openly critiqued. And that’s what this is.
I have talked to hundreds of men who have told me that they are afraid that their penis isn’t good enough. And let’s be clear, by good enough, we mean big enough. Because that is all that the media talks about when it comes to men’s penises.
So no, the question isn’t whether Jon Hamm feels good about the world knowing he has a huge penis, the question is: how does our myopic praise of that huge penis make other men feel? And what does it add to our culture of mixed messages about sex and masculinity?
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Ultimately, I am the most bothered by the double standard and how counterproductive it feels.
I like The Frisky, and I really like Amelia McDonnell-Perry who wrote the piece. She commented on my Facebook post that it was just a silly end of the year round-up, no big deal, and she’s not wrong. But all those round-ups of women’s bodies are met with uproar.
It feels a bit like coming down from the high road. As my mother-in-law says, “There’s no point in fighting with pigs, you both get dirty and they like the mud.”
All of which leaves me with a lot of questions, and very few answers—at least partly because I’m not a guy. So I thought I’d ask you guys, the men of The Good Men Project.
Is turnabout fair play? Does this level the playing field, or make it harder to play on?
Is there much difference between that photo of Jon Hamm and an upskirt shot of a girl on a bus?
Do images and messages like this bother men? If so, how?
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Maybe we all need to relax a bit. Maybe openly judging bodies is a step towards accepting that we all have them. Maybe if we get comfortable here, then we can look at more diverse bodies? Then more diverse gender expression?
I really don’t know. All I know is that it didn’t seem any more “right” to me than all those posts about women’s bodies. And that awareness totally ruined my fantasy about the Swedish dude with his average-sized, uncircumcised penis.
Which gets me back to thinking that maybe more awareness, and more discussion about these complex issues, is what is needed in order to create a world in which we all feel safe expressing ourselves, our gender and our sexuality in a way that creates pleasure rather than harm.
I know I’m an over thinker. Easily one of the best things about having smart friends like Amelia is that they make me think, they trigger perspectives in me that I might not otherwise see. So I don’t want to go making devils out of people whom we all know mean no harm. But I do think we need to continually look at an question that things that we just do out of habit, because those habits eventually create societal patterns—or at least reflect them.
For a penis-free end-of-year list from The Frisky, check out The 12 Best Dressed Men of 2012.
I’m sorry, but why when people talking about men body issues, its always about penis? I have to remind you that men have bodies too , arms, legs, chest, abs, ass, like women have boobs, ass, legs, etc. What I remember growing up as a skinny scrawny kid is I have always been insecure with my body , but never about my penis size. That’s the reason I went to gym and lift weights back in high school . I gained confidence trough my fit bodies I achieved from weightlifting . My body image clearly affects my confidence. My penis… Read more »
” I’m sorry, but why when people talking about men body issues, its always about penis?”
HAHAHAHAHA soooo true 😀
Kinda annoying, since I find the penis to be the least of my bodily concerns.
I agree – It seems my mouth is the biggest issue – due to an apparent oral fixation and extreme Dontopedalogy.
Your right John, and just about every young man at the gym I go to will tell you they’re there to ‘Look good for the women.’ However, after the women check out his biceps, pecs and abs, if he’s wearing something kind of form fitting, guess where their gaze goes? That’s right, to see if he belongs on the ‘Frisky list’ (several women have admitted that to me, of course they were slightly drunk at the time.)
Nick, you’ve nailed it. 🙂 I would argue that sexual compatibility is vital to the health of any long-term relationship, but that’s a slightly different subject. (One I can easily write at length about.) But there is not a set definition of what that means, it is unique to each relationship and needs to be handled thusly. And yes, we can all make sex work, IF we are invested in doing so. Thus, the line about the best penis being attached to someone we are “wild about.” If we want to make it work, we will, but both parties have… Read more »
I was wondering how the penis-objectification felt to people who are outside the median, in either way. I suspect that it is similar to how Victoria’s Secret models trigger feelings of inadequacy in women who are very heavy, but less so in women who are closer – though still a few sizes bigger – to them. As a sex educator, I can assure you, there are plenty of ways to work with what you’ve got – at both ends of the spectrum. Plenty. (Doing a whole show on that next week, actually.) But also, as someone said earlier in a… Read more »
And then we have this from a woman whose guy is “great” but he’s just too small for her. Sexual compatibility is important to some people, particularly those who are interested in and enjoy having sex. Size matters, for some people. I think one of the messages that is lost when we talk about there being “plenty of ways to work with what you’ve got” is that your partner needs to also be interested in working with what you’ve got. We should be careful to not universalize our attitudes and preferences to the general public. “Most of the women [you]… Read more »
“Size matters, for some people.”
Nick, Womens Health magazine ran an online survey on Twitter. It recieved over something like 20K responses, and guess what over 70% of the women responding said… SIZE MATTERS. It seems todays woman is puting that old myth “It’s not the size , but how you use it” into retirement. Now, I realize that there are other options for men. If your penis isn’t large , but say your WALLET is, you’ll still do alright(seriously, when’s the last time you saw a plain looking girl in the ‘shotgun’ seat of a Ferrarri?)
Size almost always matters, but that’s because there is a range of tolerances for most people. There are very few women for whom something resembling a baguette is going to be pleasurable. But just as there are women who enjoy cocks on the larger size, there are also women who prefer men on the smaller side and the great many who land somewhere in the middle. Case in point: The first woman I had sex with had had a few partners before me, and it was through those experiences that she came to discover her preferences. One of her prior… Read more »
It’s probably a matter of positioning more than size or at least length. Go down on her. You won’t miss. Let her have her’s first. She won’t be that concerned with size then.
Well as a confirmed lover of the old sausage, and having tried as many varieties as time, opportunity and appetite have allowed, I do have to agree that as a general rule bigger is better. Humongous is not much use other than as novelty value. On a personal straw pole of the many guys and gals I have spoken to about la Savaloy I would say the 70% is about right. Of course, after the moment and orgasm has worn off, It is nice to have a human to deal with. So, in general bigger is better, but Brainy gets… Read more »
Guys, in my LONG life I have known at least 3 men who were ‘Hung’ (As in, like porn stars!) One was my best friend through high school and after. He actually used to get ‘Creeped Out’ at some of the women who’d stalk him . We coached a Little Leauge team togeather and these women would track him down to the ball field! My wife (Fiance at the time) would get upset, figuring maybe that I would get the ‘left overs’? I told her “Don’t worry, I don’t have what these girls came for!” Another was a friend from… Read more »
I’m not saying it doesn’t matter especially for a one night stand or when people just want to hook up, but that’s true for guys who are good looking or physically fit too. I got lots more play when I was younger and buff, but right now old, out of shape, bald, and without an ounce of fashion sense I’ve got a stalker and a friend 17 years younger than I crushing on me. I sincerely doubt that’s lust. It’s an emotional / intellectual attachment they made possibly coupled with younger men today failing to launch as the saying goes.
I sense a follow-up post. 🙂 What’s the difference between relationship material and one-night stand material? I suspect that we are all capable of knowing the difference. I have certainly had the occasional “this is just sex” thing with a guy that I had no hopes at all of having a relationship with. But when I fall for a guy, virtually nothing about his physical appearance matters to me. I dated a guy for 2-1/2 years who I was not even remotely attracted to when I met him. Then, slowly, it built. By the time we had sex, I was… Read more »
In other words, he wasn’t ‘Well Hung’.
I’m talking about the guy at the beginning
I think she’s saying that at some point it stopped mattering. She seems to be saying the same thing my female friend said when she told me that she sees people differently after she gets to know them. She becomes more physically attracted to a person she has created an emotional attachment too. Alyssa is more specific as to how this occurs and it seems that she associates the person’s other qualities and her feelings with the person’s physical traits. That’s probably why parents can see their children as beautiful or handsome even when they aren’t by society’s standards of… Read more »
“How, if at all, should the media be addressing this? Should we be openly talking about these differences, and can we do so in a sex-positive way that lets us know it’s okay to have sex for the sake of sex, if we are honest, consensual and clear about it”
Start telling women that as they give so shall they recieve. They don’t get to complain about shallow men and how they (the women) feel preasured by advertising when they (the women) do just the same thing.
I have said this before and I still think it is true. Women saying that size doesn’t matter is just a rouse to cover up the fact that women are every bit as shallow as men. Because if that became public knowledge the support for women feeling bad not fitting to an ideal female apperance would drop like a rock.
Let the women experience being at the bottom of the meat market for once.
This does bother me, and I feel I have to say so. I am not well endowed, and I know it. What’s even worse is that I can’t even express that without feeling embarrassed.
Well, speaking as a guy, and a guy that used to be far from the ideal male body image (some 70 pounds overweight), I can tell you that this sort of thing does NOT impact men the same way it appears to impact women. I think there are a LOT of reasons for this, because yes, I agree, the objectification is the same thing. Men are just conditioned to react to this sort of thing differently. First, lets take this backwards, to childhood. Whenever you talk about the female body image ideals and societal expectations, eventually Barbie gets brought into… Read more »
Two issues prevent these sorts of adds from raising the ire of males: Invisibility and disposability. The reality for the average man is that we will never be looked upon by the larger society and the female members of it specifically as much more than disposable cogs in the overarching infrastructure. Unless you work in some form of media or athletic area that endorses commercial products the chances of ever being subjected to even small scale objectification are pretty small. There are the female to male sexual harassment cases, but even those impact a very small part of the male… Read more »
I’m a bit older so my perspective is probably a little out of date. I hear that males make up about 25% of people with eating disorders so things have probably changed since my time, but here is my take. Muscles were strength and strength was valued. No one could push you around. I started weightlifting with cans and such when I was about 10 or 11 and started with weights in my early teens. It wasn’t even images of men that started it, but the ads in the back of comic books plus the need to be able to… Read more »
And the other question wasn’t about how it makes the man with the cock feel, but how the obsession with Jon Hamm’s penis makes other men feel. Does the focus on size as the only indicator of cock worth serve anyone? Size isn’t the only indicator of worth. There’s also the performance issue. Also, I fully share in John’s experience about the “attractiveness” of the male body. A lot of women seem to think that “wanting to be attractive” is a flaw, a defect, in a male psyche. It’s a catch 22, if you need assurance that you are attractive… Read more »
John, that hurt to read. I am so sorry, and it kind of breaks my heart. I hadn’t thought much about this aspect of it before, but it does seem like the default for discussion about women’s bodies is sexual objectification and men’s is a sort of mockery. It’s not healthy, and it is something we deal with a lot as sex-positive educators. I suspect, like most things, it has a lot to do with not accepting our bodies – or anyone’s – and a puritanical sense of shame about sex. When you add in being genuinely mystified by bodies,… Read more »
What John just described is a womans favorite way to hurt a man. I see it all the time. Just because we don’t talk endlessly about ‘body issues’ like women, you think that sort of thing doesn’t affect us? Don’t you realize by now that we’ve been trained our whole lives NOT to talk about such things? Let me ask you something, how would you feel if you saw your boyfriend quite often staring at revealing, candid pictures of women on various websites. I mean, he tells you somthing like “Don’t worry, they don’t turn me on” , but he’s… Read more »
I don’t know that women intentionally try to hurt men this way, though I believe it hurts. I think it’s a defense mechanism – a bad one. And if we could stop telling people that genitals are ugly, they’d stop thinking they’re supposed to be revolted by them. Most of us like the bits when we admit it, but feel bad about it – largely because we live in a society that still tells us that we’re supposed to feel bad about sex, even though we’re also supposed to be able to do it better than anyone. As for my… Read more »
You described yourself an athlete. So I’m going to assume you have a lean , trim athletic body. Now, what if you’re boyfriend was constantly looking at say shorter more well endowed, in other words, an opposite body type. I say this because when you ,or any woman says”You’re average/normal size member is just right for me”, but you’re constantly pulling up pictures of big cocks, whether there candid or not., you’re basiclly telling him “What, are you going to believe what I tell you or you’re own lying eyes?” As for 50 Shades, am I supposed to believe that… Read more »
Honestly I feel disturbed more by the way many women like to make a joke about men bodies instead of objectifying it. “Male body is hairy, boxy, ugly, ewww”, “Muscles are disgusting”, “Penis is just ugly”, etc . We know our body don’t do anything for you ( yes yes I know its about confidence and sense of humor for you ) , but please don’t make a joke about our body, thank you. It hurts to hear that.
Actually I kind of think those jokes are objectification. It might not be sexual objectification. Such “jokes” are often an attempt at reducing you to that one part (your hair, your penis, your size) and then writing you off as a man because of it.
But of course sense I’m talking about the male body I’m sure what I’m saying here will get filed away as not being systemic or “not as bad as women” having it.
For my own life, it boils down to a simple “Do Unto Others.” I don’t like women being objectified, so I really try not to objectify men. Do I ocassionally fall short of my own standard? Yes. But I keep trying to live up to it.
This is probably going to be viewed as a very silly question (but then again I would be silly to not ask it). Why hold these standards and why attempt to live upto something which you are aware you fail at?
Why set likely-unattainable goals? Even if you don’t quite make the summit of the mountain, you’re still likely to be rewarded with a good view. I think people need challenges, goals to aim for.
This double standard makes me pretty uncomfortable.
For my own life, it boils down to a simple “Do Unto Others.” I don’t like women being objectified, so I really try not to objectify men. Do I ocassionally fall short of my own standard? Yes. But I keep trying to live up to it.
Bluntly: the double standard exists because a woman’s’ sexuality is “seen” as more valuable than a man’s sexuality. You cannot objectify something that has no value, and from this benchmark, there is a progression from less to more valuable, with a corresponding level of perceived objectification. I’m not making a case for what ought to be, just what is. One stated blight of pornography is that it devalues a thing of perceived great value – it is a commoditizer. As common as gay porn is, it seldom makes news in the discourse of sexual objectification. It’s easier to reduce something… Read more »
In an ideal world, this would not be a sensitive topic, or even a topic of any kind. And I think the author’s last hypothesis, that open talk about these things would be beneficial, is correct. It would probably help dismantle those narrow artificial standards, the very ones that 98% of us don’t fit. I don’t care. A comment on the aesthetic merits of my cock as seen through my jeans, positive or negative, doesn’t mean to me that a cock is all I am, or even that that’s all the commenter sees me as. All “Nice dick” means to… Read more »
If you’re only question is about double standards then look at the debate between pornography vs. erotic literature, which is addressed in The Good Men Project. Adult magazine’s (which largely cater to men & may not be of classy taste) are hidden away by society yet 50 Shades of Grey is celebrated and readily available at the local supermarket with now age restrictions whatsoever. Traditional porn is geared mostly towards men due to the visual reaction of males. We now know that women are sexually stimulated largely via mental stimulation and that is exactly what erotic literature does for women.… Read more »
This is such an interesting – and I think sharp and important – perspective to me. I hope you’ll indulge me as I clumsily try to pull out a few questions that popped into my head as i was reading it: 1) We have been taught, intellectually, that objectification is bad. So how do we admit that it feels good to get external validation for our looks? Because it does. How do we admit that we want that external validation when we are taught that it’s shallow, or objecitfying to women or…. But we obviously all do, or we wouldn’t… Read more »
Well, if I remember my Hegel, the first step, more or less, in perception is objectification. I tend to see other people holistically, but occasionally a feature or two might jump out at me. It’s not consistent, and it always seems related to the whole. I usually find small breasts, as a sometime example, very attractive, but occasionally a woman with large breasts seems divine. I really love a bit of belly on women, even thin ones, and that seems interestingly consistent for some reason. But eyes might be an equally interesting feature, or a forehead, etc., etc. I think… Read more »
True. If we could accept bodies in all their forms as worthy of admiration, and focus on what people do, that would be healthier for all of us. Which I guess is why lists like this bother me. But I would love to see much less body-shaming in general, and much less shock and awe at the fact that we all have them and most of us like to look at and touch them. 🙂
What you and others are pointing to here is right on, from my eyes. The objectification of people we see is a dominant logic in Western society and it affects everyone, both as objectifier and objectified. White feminism has done a good job of unearthing its effect on women and women’s bodies, but has tended overall to end the analysis there. When it doesn’t stop there, it still tends to spiral off into an “oppression Olympics” à la: “No, black bodies of both genders are more objectified than white women’s bodies,” “Wait a second, queer bodies are the most objectified… Read more »
So where was the outcry at men being objectified this way? I thought I’d look for some in the comments on the article. None. I thought I’d look on Facebook. None. So I posted it on my own wall and asked about the double standard. I remember a post here a while back where someone was talking about some site or other in London that was about pics of guys on the subway with commentary about their attractiveness…..and then the writer switched into the objectification of women. I think there is a chance that you didn’t hear much outcry because… Read more »
That would be TubeCrush.net the place to upload that photo of a guy you took – without him knowing – sort of stalker style – because of sexual urge thingies – and you objectifying a total stranger… because they were male, judged as sexually attractive …. and you can do it and supplely not be caught! Secretive and furtive sexual objectification anyone? Here’s My Fave! http://tubecrush.net/2011/08/18/very-big-ben/ Yum Yum! I’m always amazed at the Women Don’t objectify men sexually malarkey, cos I have as yet to come across a single woman who does not – even the Queer One’s. Me Thinks… Read more »
Personally, I objectify plenty. Though I usually keep it to myself and I don’t tend to put it out there as a societal norm and standard. But I’m pretty vocal about my appreciation for the male physique, and when guys like Chris Kluwe pair mostly naked pictures with his brilliant brain and backbone for social activism, I’ve been known to say all sorts of things about the Perfect Package. It’s not, in my mind, a question of what any individual is attracted to – that’s all fair game. It’s a question of what it does to us as a society… Read more »
But I’m pretty vocal about my appreciation for the male physique, and when guys like Chris Kluwe pair mostly naked pictures with his brilliant brain and backbone for social activism, I’ve been known to say all sorts of things about the Perfect Package. Yup – I have no issue with Objectifying other people – they do it to me all the time. They see me – a Pair of Crutches and they start asking other folks if I take sugar. I like full packages too – Body, Brains and an edge for making change – but that’s just me objectifying… Read more »
It’s a question of what it does to us as a society when we narrow down our definition of “hot” to an impossibly narrow standard and then objectify people who possess those qualities to the exclusion of all their other qualities, and to the exclusion of anyone who doesn’t have those qualities. But who actually does that? If you admire Jon Hamm’s package in the image included atop the article, do you forget or ignore everything else you know about him – his acting talent, his humor, his charm? I’m guessing no, which makes that superficial quality you’re enjoying just… Read more »
This is the issue I have with objectification as a concept in itself. Merely expressing admiration for someone’s physique does not automatically entail that you are reducing them to that. Not explicitly stating that you admire someone for their physique and all their other aspects does not imply that you are objectifying them. It’s consistent with it, sure, but it’s not conclusive evidence for it, and accusing someone of objectification when all you know is they are admiring someone’s physique is nothing more than bad faith. Objectification as a concept may have its place, but it’s been spread way too… Read more »
On an individual basis, I agree with that. Back to Chris Kluwe – he happens to have the type of body that I’m attracted to, fine and dandy. But it wasn’t until I saw him standing up for gay rights so vocally and brilliantly, read his writing that showed an incredible brain, and learned that he’s also a gamer and thereby likely possesses the geekiness that I am generally drawn to that he became unbearable hot to me. Whole package. And no, when I run across those striped down photos of him, I don’t forget any of that. In fact,… Read more »
I’ve mentioned elsewhere that the media’s standard of conventional attractiveness is quite narrow when compared to the standards for attractiveness of the population at large (as I’ve experienced it, anyway). We still have size-0 models everywhere in fashion mags, even though most guys I know and have read online in comments etc have expressed a preference for girls that have curves. We still have muscle-bound well-endowed guys in men’s mags, even though women’s preferences are much broader than that. I think most mags could easily broaden their range when it comes to physical attractiveness and not lose out. So I… Read more »
I think the double standard you are talking about hinges on one starting assupmtion. When a man does it to a woman it an indication of systemic oppression and when a woman does it to a man it’s just her own thoughts. From there it is decided that it is okay for women do it to men while the vice versa is not okay. This judging is an instance where I think men are judged collectively and women are judged individually (although according to nearly every male privilege checklist ever written men are the ones with the privilege of individual… Read more »
Sorry if that was confusing, you’re right to call that one out. What I meant, and wasn’t perhaps as clear as I should have been, was that men have it easier in regards to their feeling of physical safety. I don’t think that men instinctively feel the need to assess other people as potential assailants the way that women do. But, that in regards to safety in the larger sense – acceptance, etc… – the delineation is less clear. And that doing to men as was done to us makes that larger sense of safety even more eroded. And that… Read more »
I’d say I agree about physical safety (as an aside, that’s exactly the reason I roll my eyes when men play the victim when a woman regards them as a potential threat). However, in a broader sense, I think men are less protected in our society in many ways, and have to prove and defend ourselves, albeit in different ways than women. As a quick example, the typical “men approach” model of flirting/dating puts pressure on men to be “good enough” to gain the approval of a woman. As to the main point of your article – I think it’s… Read more »
Yup. 🙂 That was my point. That as long as we think about safety as only a physical issue, we’re missing the larger point. It would be interesting to juxtapose some of these ideas over Maslow’s Hierarchy of needs and see how the sexes fair then…. Maybe I’ll do that. 🙂
“That as long as we think about safety as only a physical issue,” It’s worse than that. The people who look at safety as the only physical issue tend to only look at one aspect of safety. The aspect of being physically overpowered without the use of a weapon and even then simply in the most general of ways. So a 5′ 5″ 130 lb man would be considered safe, while a 6′ 175 lb female would be considered vulnerable because a man can generally overpower a woman. Men have been drugged or drunk into having sex. Men have been… Read more »
The aspect of being physically overpowered without the use of a weapon and even then simply in the most general of ways.
I’d say it’s even worse than that. Add weapons back to the mix and you can see a definite dissonance between instances when a man uses a weapon to kill a woman and a woman uses a weapon to kill a man.
People’s perceptions are strange. I remember a rather large acquaintance 6′ 3″ and about 210 lbs recount a story of his even bigger dad who was picking a fight with a rather smallish Asian man. When the Asian man finally had enough, his dad asked him what he was going to do about it and pulled his fist back to strike. He felt himself get hit 4 times. Never saw them coming. Next thing he knows he’s counting ceiling tiles. His father thought he had a physical advantage because he was larger . The other guy was faster and much… Read more »
No, men don’t instinctively assess others. It’s a learned behavior. Every male I know does it. And it seems that every female you know does it. So we’re all doing it, albeit for different reasons.
And to the point about men minding…it seems like an individual issue. As Drew said it just doesn’t happen very often. The men I know would never take it seriously. Sounds like a problem for younger generations.
“Safety, in a larger sense, means that you feel accepted, like you will be protected, like you don’t have to prove and defend yourself all the time. It seems to me that men have it way easier in this regard.”
What makes you say that men have it easier in this regard?
“Is turnabout fair play? Does this level the playing field, or make it harder to play on?” Both. In some ways, if people are going to talk about equality, I to some degree don’t care what the solution is, as long as it’s consistently applied. But currently that isn’t what we have, as it’s apparently ok to objectify men and not women. “Is there much difference between that photo of Jon Hamm and an upskirt shot of a girl on a bus?” Not to sound sarcastic (yet, at least), but the former is easier to get? “Do images and messages… Read more »
I don’t have much issue with people admiring each other’s bodies. Or feeling desirous when they see someone out and about, or if someone chose to pose. Most of us do get a hit of “Wow!” while realizing that person is a person and we don’t have any rights or entitlement to grab at them. Flirting and admiring are lovely parts of life. If a lovely man or woman has posed for PR/modeling etc and I figure they got paid well to sell a product, I don’t mind admiring them though I’ve personally found I like seeing people in real… Read more »
Exactly, Julie. Exactly.
I see this talk of “men objectify us” with some women as if women didn’t objectify men, or society didn’t. Throughout history both genders have been objectified, men especially with conscription but they’ve also been objectified as sex symbols just as women have. Hell take Ron Jeremy, you could argue he is objectified for his big cock, or David Beckham who adorned many teenage girls walls (google his underwear modeling shots which reallllly throw his crotch into view). It makes me laugh when women assume men aren’t objectified or talk as if women are finally starting to objectify men. Though… Read more »
What is objectification? How do you distinguish it from attraction or desire? Are you onjectifying someone if you openly and honestly express your interest in them and that interest is limited entirely to their body? I think objectification is limited to or at least most damaging when some narrow aspect of a person’s body is used to assign that person unrelated attributes like intelligence, virtue, etc., or more harmfully, to assign the lack of such unrelated attributes. Therefore I don’t think it’s really objectifying to like or desire some physical attribute another person possesses. I think you can make a… Read more »
I never objectify women. But sometimes I catch my body doing it.
In response to the underlying question: I have a responsibility to dress appropriately when in public. I think about where I am and where I am going. Primary considerations are if kids will be around and if I want to attract someone. Most of the time I am self-conscious about my package and make sure it is masked appropriately. Clubbing, on stage, working the door at a party/event I will wear my skinny jeans. I am not major buff, but I like to run around in my running outfits. I like to be noticed as being sexy sometimes. My actions… Read more »
And there we have it. An admission of hypocrisy and the double standard. Wonderful. I don’t understand why it’s such a big deal that men admire women and vice versa. Just remember that there is a person in there amid all those boobs, butts, cocks and balls. Is that really that hard to ask for rather than the total rejection of interest in the physical and the virtual burkas (which would somehow cloak the mind’s eye of males, though not exist in the real world) that some women seem to demand that men wear? Anyways… I long ago decided that… Read more »