“I’ve had people say they were ‘clean’ and come over with dirty balls.”
– Do you have a racial preference?
00:02
– No. – You’re the best kind of gay.
00:05
It’s impulsive as fuck.
00:07
Glad this isn’t a family program.
00:08
We’re gonna check out some dick pics.
00:10
You see the bios. They’re like ‘Blacks only’, ‘Latinos only’, ‘Asians only’. It’s like why ‘only’?
00:15
These are fucking fun.
00:16
I’m Arisce Wanzer, and I’m a pair of legs with a head.
00:21
It’s all about physical attraction.
00:23
There is prejudice versus preferences.
00:32
Hey guys. Welcome back to What The Flip. We’re gonna talk about HIV today.
00:37
I’m your cheerleader for the Gay Agenda, Arisce Wanzer.
00:39
My name is Jeremy Worker and I am HIV positive.
00:43
I am male and my sexuality is queer.
00:46
My name is Cameron Reck. I am HIV negative. I’ve been on PrEP for about three years.
00:51
So, HIV comes with a certain level of stigma and general stress about your immune system.
00:57
The medication has gotten very very good.
00:59
And, for the most part if you’re able to navigate the system and stay on medications, you can be undetectable, which means untransmittable.
01:06
Which means mostly normal in terms of health.
01:10
The idea of HIV was really really terrifying to me for a very long time.
01:14
PrEP was definitely one of those things that helped me get over my fear of HIV.
01:17
I began to educate myself and get to know more and more people that were HIV positive or
01:23
undetectable and it really… it kind of changed my views on everything. Like it’s not a scary three-letter thing anymore.
01:29
I’ve had experiences where people just stopped talking to me if I tell them I have HIV
01:33
It’s tough enough being a queer person.
01:35
Then being a queer person of color. To then have HIV as well – it’s even more rejection.
01:40
So you’re within your community and within that community and within that community…
01:43
There’s all of this rejection and for a lot of people that can be very painful.
01:47
In taking PrEP, it was kind of a gateway into
01:50
helping educate myself and what the virus actually is and what it means.
01:54
My experiences with HIV are: I have a lot of friends with HIV and so I’m very familiar with it. I’m very comfortable with it.
02:00
I don’t believe in any stigmas. I think that’s where I stand on it.
02:03
Let’s see where everyone else stands on it.
02:06
– So would you date someone who’s HIV positive? – You know, I literally was talking about this with my best friend. I’m actually on PrEP.
02:10
It’s actually something that we really try to like stigmatize, unfortunately.
02:14
And, try to make it seem like it’s such in a negative light when, really?
02:17
It’s like why make these people feel even worse than like they probably felt in that office.
02:21
– Like, you know what I mean? So, I’m not opposed to it, honestly. – Great answer.
02:24
– Would you date someone who’s HIV positive? – Yeah, absolutely! – I love kids.
02:28
– OK. Well, would you date someone that’s HIV positive? – Absolutely. I am HIV positive.
02:32
– Oh my god you better werk bitch!
02:34
Not that you deserve a medal, but I’m like, ‘Hey Girl’.
02:37
– Yeah, I think clarity is like important. HIV is not one age group, or one race, or one demographic at all.
02:45
My boyfriend is HIV negative.
02:47
So, we’re like a great example of how to stay healthy and medicated and on top of things.
02:52
– I contracted HIV in 2012. I wound up getting on meds after a year when I got sick and since then I’ve been undetectable.
02:59
So, yeah, it just made me a lot more conscious about my health and my life.
03:03
– All right, and how about you Cameron?
03:04
– So, I’m HIV negative and for me growing up HIV was a really really terrifying idea.
03:10
Coming to terms with the fact that I was gay…
03:12
I was like, ‘So you just get AIDS.’ Like, that’s just how it works. You’re gay and suddenly you get it and then you die.
03:17
And, so I was petrified.
03:18
– That’s kind of how I thought about it growing up. Because I remember I asked my sister.
03:23
Because I could never ask my Mom what she thought about me being out.
03:25
You know, as a trans person. And, I’d ask my sisters ‘What does Mom think? and they were just like
03:29
‘Oh, she’s just afraid you’re gonna get AIDS and die.’
03:31
And, I’m like, ‘Do we just get it at some point?’
03:34
Like, I had no idea. I was like, is this… does it just happen?
03:37
Or, like, they make it sound like it’s airborne and you get it as soon as your DNA hits the gay gene or the trans gene.
03:43
– And, I felt growing up similarly, because I come from church from like Southern Baptist like churches and we
03:50
were definitely taught in some instances that HIV was like a curse of being gay. This was definitely the punishment for being gay.
03:57
– Yeah. – And, so I grew up thinking if I did allow myself to be gay and live a ‘gay lifestyle’, if you will, that I would
04:04
contrive HIV just because that would be the punishment for me being gay.
04:09
– I remember I don’t even know how old I was but there was a
04:11
news story playing out about a new form of treatment for HIV.
04:16
I remember sitting they’re watching it and I don’t think my mom even really realized what she was saying
04:20
but she she kind of alluded to the idea. She’s like, ‘I don’t know if we’re supposed to have a cure for this.’
04:25
And, I was like, and for me… – OK mom, god damn.
04:30
– They’ve come a long way. They have come a long long way.
04:33
– And, I think a lot of people specifically our parents’ age come from the 80s and come from the AIDS crisis at that time.
04:39
And, it makes sense.
04:41
Those who survived… like I think now if I put myself in the 80s and my friends were to die off.
04:47
You know, two-thirds of them were to die off in really traumatic ways from something
04:50
that’s so scary that we have no information on.
04:53
It would really affect how I dated, how I saw myself, how I identified as a queer person.
04:57
I see a lot of older gay men are still traumatized.
05:00
Don’t like to date, are afraid of sex, are afraid of all kinds of things, and it affects them.
05:04
And, so yeah our parents come from that generation and I can’t blame them for being so afraid, you know
05:09
– All right, guys, we’re at the segment where we switch our Grindr profiles. We’re gonna check out some dick pics.
05:17
– All right, let’s check out Cameron’s profile through the eyes of Jeremy.
05:21
– All right. – Oh how cute. You look innocent.
05:24
You’re covering your mouth so no one know what it do.
05:28
– That’s not what I was thinking.
05:29
So, if I were going through
05:30
Grindr and I was looking. I always question, and maybe because I’m a person of color, and I wonder if I
05:36
just analyze race a little bit too much sometimes.
05:39
Would this person even be interested in me?
05:41
And I think with your profile the way that it is I would wait for you to message me first
05:46
because of the experiences that I’ve had with white gay men.
05:49
– But, would you click the fire button? – Ah, but yeah, you’re cute. I would click the fire button. There you go.
05:55
There you go.
05:55
– So Cameron, what’s your experience been like with dating apps?
05:58
You look popular.
06:00
– Um.. I-I don’t think I’ve struggled. I tend to like guys that are a little bit older than me and I tend to like guys that
06:07
Are bigger than me, which I think comes from..
06:10
– Daddy issues?
06:11
– Daddy issues, maybe. I think I think a lot of it really stems from just I’m a-a
06:16
Smaller person and I was made fun of a lot for being small and so the image of like what was attractive was bigger..
06:23
Men. Was like these these muscular guys.
06:25
– Attraction comes from trauma.
06:27
A lot of people don’t know that. Like whatever affected you as a child is what’s gonna affect you later and your choices.
06:33
Three days ago. I had somebody say to me ‘PrEP is for losers. Fuck off, faggot.’ and I was just like number one..
06:41
You’re on Grindr. So like.. you’re a fag too, honey. And number number two. I said back to him
06:46
I was like, I don’t know what made you feel like you want to say something like this
06:49
But PrEP literally saves lives and whether or not he wants to embrace his own homosexuality, it’s something that I’m doing.
06:57
Educated with the medication that I need.
06:59
– You better work.
07:00
So Cameron. Have you ever faced any stigma..
07:03
Yourself taking PrEP?
07:04
– Uh.. yeah. Some of it is is the assumption that because I’m on PrEP,
07:08
I must be like a complete whore
07:11
– Just hittin’ it raw.
07:12
– And and then other people have questioned whether or not I’m abusing..
07:15
the pill. And I’m like, I don’t really- like that-
07:17
This is the point of it. And I wish the conversation would go further after I asked what does that mean?
07:21
But it’s usually a quick block and so I don’t really know where they’re coming from.
07:24
– It’s good to do a quick block.
07:25
That’s so wild just because I see it as like birth control, which I’ve obviously never had to take.
07:32
Like it’s not like it’s something you can abuse
07:34
You take it when you’re supposed to take it
07:36
And that’s that and so when you say abuse the pill I’m like, they’re not just gonna keep prescribing you more
07:41
Yeah
07:41
You’re gonna get the dose you’re supposed to get so if you don’t know that I don’t think you understand how doctor prescribed things work.
07:49
Which is, yeah.
07:50
It’s really scary that you made it to adulthood and you don’t know that.
07:52
– One of the parts of being on PrEP,
07:54
is that you do have to go in every three months to get tested to even get your prescription renewed. So, I know what my STI
08:00
Status is and I think that’s an added bonus to being on it.
08:04
– So, we’ve gone on several tangents. Let’s go to Jeremy’s profile and see these dick pics.
08:12
– I love the photo. I mean we tap it and we get like both photos
08:16
Which is like a two for one deal which is great. But I love that
08:18
It’s cropped like this because it’s like super artsy looking. It’s fun. You have your um.. your astrological sign on here.
08:24
– Libra!
08:25
– Oh my god, that’s the Libra? Okay. I’m a Libra. And I was looking at it and I was like, I don’t know what that is.
08:31
And then another one that I wasn’t sure what does the this the arrows pointing in circular mean?
08:37
– So that was my symbol for verse. Um..
08:39
– That’s what I thought. I honestly that’s what I thought cuz I would block you.
08:44
Im just kidding!
08:46
What has your experience been like on dating apps?
08:49
– That is such a long
08:50
Story, but..
08:52
– That’s why we’re here.
08:53
– I know.
08:54
– Spill.
08:54
– Grindr. I feel like it’s the most diverse and gives me the best
08:59
Idea of who’s around because I like to use it as like a sociological
09:03
Experiment like who are the gays?
09:05
– Jeremy, do you think you could explain why somebody with HIV would not disclose?
09:10
– Absolutely. I have had this conversation with friends before and I think it’s really interesting and valid and fair because it’s
09:18
Hard to have HIV knowing the stigma if you’re already queer, etc, etc
09:23
Adding HIV to the mix is kind of the most stereotypical thing as a gay person that your mom wouldn’t want you
09:29
You know, there’s a lot of shame and in the community
09:31
We know a lot about shame with that
09:33
Like we were like we were saying sometimes you’ll get into an experience where you have to disclose to someone and people don’t respond to
09:40
That well, and some people are much more hurt by that
09:42
I feel like I’ve spent a lot of time trying to fortify myself and make sure that I
09:46
Feel worthy to where that doesn’t affect me, but I can understand for little queer people
09:50
we’re just looking for people to love us we get older and we
09:53
Finally have a community of people that is a little bit more accepting and then it’s open and then you finally get to this intimate
09:59
Space with this person who’s willing to touch your body which you’ve spent your entire life having shame over
10:04
Throwing in the conversation that I have
10:07
possibly deadly disease
10:09
is not ever an easy conversation
10:11
to throw into the most intimate a space that you get into with someone. And, so I can’t blame someone for not wanting
10:19
to disclose, especially when there’s such good medicine now and if you are
10:24
Undetectable and you are taking good care of yourself
10:27
And you know that you’re not really putting someone at risk, especially let’s say the other person is on PrEP
10:31
Then there’s not even you know, you don’t have to have the conversation to know that you’re both taking care of yourself
10:37
but that’s really hard to explain to someone who doesn’t have a lot of experience with HIV and if it’s more comfortable to not have
10:42
It you’ve taken all the precautions. I can understand. I try not to but I understand why it’s done now.
10:47
– So would you date someone who is HIV positive?
10:49
– It’s a very interesting question. So I
10:52
remember, maybe two years ago when my friend asked me if I would ever date someone who was HIV positive and at the time I
10:58
Did not know he was HIV positive. He ended up passing away.
11:02
– Did he die from complications of the virus or something else?
11:04
– Yes. So basically I go back to that moment of him asking me. At that time, I wouldn’t. Now I know
11:12
The history of it and I know how to protect myself.
11:16
At that time, I didn’t you know, I was like no, but now I probably would.
11:19
– All right everybody. I’ve got a question for the room.
11:21
How do we feel about..
11:23
The word ‘clean’ as it relates to HIV status or STI status?
11:28
– I feel like the idea that HIV comes with dirtiness is obviously a big misconception. You know
11:35
there’s just so many different ways that you can come about HIV that it’s such a
11:39
negative kind of connotation to use the word clean and I know it’s probably
11:44
Unintentional it’s just insensitive.
11:45
– When I first started using apps
11:49
I mean I used it and it was because it was simple slang, you know?
11:52
It’s just it was it was a quick way to ask a question and then it wasn’t until later
11:56
when people started pointing out really what they’re like you realize that the connotation behind that that
12:01
it holds this negative thought to it because it means that people that don’t have HIV are clean and it’s like and that people that
12:07
Have it are dirty and it was and it wasn’t until someone explained that to me and again it comes from taking time to
12:13
To educate yourself and listening to people with different experiences
12:16
It’s the only way that you can become sensitive to those kind of things. Now
12:19
if anyone to me that question on Grindr, I usually end up going into a whole spiel about
12:25
HIV status and what it actually means and I typically get blocked because I’ve totally killed the mood.
12:31
– Yes.
12:31
– It’s like, okay. No, no, no, we’re gonna have a little social justice moment here.
12:34
– I mean, we’re all learning together though.
12:36
I think it’s important as we go because we finally have access to communicate with each other in this kind of way on a rate
12:41
like this is new. Like Grindr having a situation like this where we could sit and talk about HIV status as
12:47
Three different kinds of people from the community
12:49
And really discuss that as new. So, we’re learning in this process
12:53
like I see a lot with the trans community where one day one word is like a normal thing to say and then the next
12:58
day, it’s not.
12:59
– Ugh, I love the word ‘tranny’.
13:02
I’m keeping it.
13:03
– Or with the women’s movement, you know
13:05
it was this and now it’s this and so we’re all kind of learning and so I try to educate people better
13:09
Hey that doesn’t you know, that doesn’t- I wouldn’t go about saying it like that specifically next time you go about asking that question
13:15
– Yeah, like it’s pretty dirty that you said that yeah
13:17
I think it’s just too generic of a word
13:20
The word ‘clean’ because I’ve had people say that they were clean and come over with dirty balls
13:24
And it didn’t make a damn lick of sense. I’m like, I have been douching for two hours and you couldn’t wash up?
13:31
– I’ve never had anybody ask about it, but I’ve had people yeah react in non positive ways
13:36
When I when I disclose that.
13:38
Generally though it’s just the ghosting, you know, it’s not necessarily always this big ol reaction. Sometimes people just ghost out of
13:45
Misunderstanding or if it’s just not for them. That’s cool, too.
13:48
But I just wish people could be just like upfront about it. You know what I mean?
13:51
Like if they don’t understand what being an HI-
13:54
HIV-positive means I can help them understand that.
13:56
– You have a lot of patience because I don’t have patience for anybody who doesn’t know what the fuck trans is
14:00
I’m like you need to go to Google and figure your shit out before you get on these apps and
14:04
It’s a big it’s a big rainbow. You are not a teacher. – Right. – And don’t ever feel like you have to be a teacher
14:09
I think you have a lot of patience. You’re very nice for that. – Right – But, don’t you’re not a fucking teacher, honey
14:13
I’m not a gender studies major. – I hear you. – You’re not a teacher.
14:16
What is a better way to inquire about people status?
14:19
– I don’t know if I’ve asked that question.
14:21
– Yeah. Well, it’s because it’s a new question.
14:23
I tend to ask well
14:25
When was the last time you were tested because I feel like that that is an overall sexual health question.
14:30
It kind of covers all the bases.
14:31
I do like that Grindr has that
14:34
Option where you’re able to write in when you were tested last and so it kind of answers the question for you
14:39
I think it’s very important.
14:40
– It screens.
14:42
Yeah, I think I think and I was I was wondering I was like why haven’t I asked that question
14:46
but the truth is like you said we do have like it’s good that on Grindr it has an option there so that you can
14:51
Just kind of see in the screen and that’s why I put it there
14:53
Like I said, so that people can, if you don’t like it, you can just go ahead and screen me out.
14:57
I also offer the information if I don’t know, I offer my information and then typically people respond in kind uh
15:03
So that’s typically I think that’s always kind of a good way to approach any question that you don’t know how to ask. Offer
15:07
Your vulnerability first, and then typically people will respond in kind.
15:11
– Alright guys. So, what are your takeaways any final thoughts?
15:14
– Uh, I think through a lot of the conversations that we’ve been having today
15:17
It reminds me and kind of opens my eyes to the way that I move through the queer community.
15:23
Just as a white guy who is HIV negative. The privilege that comes with it is
15:28
Something that’s very very easy to take for granted. For you to be able to speak up about your status, if someone were to attack
15:33
You over that or to come out you negatively, it’s my responsibility to to step in and educate.
15:37
– Oftentimes when I have this conversation
15:39
I have so much to say I have so much I want to get out,
15:41
I have so many experiences with these things that I’m like bursting to get this stuff out.
15:44
But, then it’s just like I’m just ranting and crazy about all these things and I don’t mean to make everything so intense
15:50
But I feel like having a space like this gives me the opportunity to be able to talk about and discuss these things to where
15:55
I’m not having to bottle them in and not feeling like I’m at The Abbey trying to tell people about..
16:00
Race because I’m worried about the gay community, you know. Like so we have this here
16:06
It’s true like trying to talk to the stripper about race, yeah, but I’m really glad that there’s a place for this to-
16:13
I feel lighter being able to have this conversation and a space
16:17
With people that are willing to listen and understand.
16:20
– Well good, God. That was fabulous.
16:22
My takeaway is that I’ve had a bangin show.
16:24
I’m just kidding.
16:27
Alright guys, that was What The Flip. I hope you liked it. If you did, please like, comment, subscribe
16:33
Watch again, but I mean also be nice in the comments, you know, there’s no reason to be nasty.
16:37
Yeah, my thing is I was I was like, oh my god. It’s a panel of Libras. It’s never gonna stop.
16:42
We’re just gonna keep talking.
—
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