This comment by Michael Rowe was in reply to Tom Matlack’s post “Being a Dude is a Good Thing.”
Oh, thank God. For a moment there, I was afraid no one was going to try to shame and trivialize Mr. Matlack’s exploration of a topic that clearly resonates with many, many evolved, liberal, pro-feminist, pro-LGBT men with shrill, trite, shopworn clichés like “angry White [sp] male of privilege” (itself surely a prime example of a “sweeping and flawed generalization.”) Well said, Andy,
Now that Andrew has correctly identified Tom Matlack and The Good Men’s Project as the vile engine of sexist oppression that it is, there’s still time to put on our Indigo Girls CD and rustle up a delicious organic mung bean noodle casserole in time for the collective’s pot-luck supper and film night.
And yes, for the record, I too am glad that “my male friends and family do not espouse the same values” Mr. Matlack does. Can you imagine how degraded the culture would be if it were populated by men who founded men’s websites dedicated to men asking themselves how to be better men–getting men to actually question their own place in the world, and what they owe to women, other men, their families, their friends, and society as a whole–men’s websites that provided a forum for both male and female writers, welcoming the latter even when the writing is critical and occasionally very harsh towards men in a way that no women’s website ever would if it were a man writing about women? Or who travels across the country, from prisons to schools and everywhere in between, asking men to take a long hard look at their lives, where they’ve come from, where they’re going, and what they owe?
And what could such a man ever know about gender, let alone the relations between men and women, or straight men and gay men, or straight men and lesbians, or, or, or…?
Dude. Your feelings of marginalization are not the fault of feminists. We’re against that crap. That’s the fault OF the dominant patriarchal system.
Put the blame where it belongs.
Cara, I don’t think the response was directed at feminists, but rather at the assumption that white men are just the “privileged class.” Privilege comes with consequence and Eagle’s comment very clearly demonstrates that. As a white male am I privileged? Very much so, and it would be mistaken to think that a white male does not also experience social pressures that threaten to invalidate him just as they would a woman. Along with women’s consequences and troubles there are also many privileges to being a woman. Before anyone jumps on me by saying one’s groups invalidation is greater than… Read more »
I’ll champion the rights of women, but at the expense of men like me thank you
Edit: I mean “NOT” at the expense of men. Thank you.
The very notion that it would necessarily be at men’s “expense” indicates that the problem is in your thinking, not in feminist ideas.
No that means he’s had the misfortune of dealing with bad feminists. But of course you’ve already decided that no feminist anywhere has any negativity about them so when people like Eagle come along is MUST be because they are running on prejudices about femnists rather than actual experience. I would be nice if feminism was the perfect system of equality for all that you (and whole lot of misguided souls) seem to be believe but its not. And a lot of us have the scars to prove it. But if it makes you feel better to just sit back… Read more »
I do like that the worst female and male scolds don’t come here as often now, or maybe I’m misperceiving this.
“in a way that no women’s website ever would if it were a man writing about women”
This is not actually true. I recommend you check out ifeminists.com for ample evidence to the contrary.
Kirsten, thank you, I’ll do that. I’ve never found a women’s site that welcomed and published a steady stream of sharply-worded, occasionally-scathing critiques by men’s rights activists (MRA) aimed at women, instructing them how to be “good women,” and explaining the women to themselves from a male perspective. On your advice, I’ll check out those sites.
Indeed Micheal, and great Original post too
I responded to this comment in its original form on Tom’s page. I have pasted that response below: Michael, You self-diminish the value of your reply by packaging it in patronizing sarcasm. It didn’t escape my notice that you then attempted to diminish my value by truncating my name to it’s shortened form. That’s a particularly savvy move on the “I have nothing to offer but vitriol” debate circuit. I suppose I could unpack what you’ve written by saying that, yes, The GMP offers a forum for discussion re: many issues. The point of the matter *here* is that Tom’s… Read more »
Andrew: “Men, on the other hand, are privileged and face nothing resembling the systemic pressures and oppressiveness that Women face.”
As someone, who wrote in” Bullied By Girls And Women: One Man’s Account”, whom has been dealt serious trauma not just by boys and men but by girls and women. One who also has found NO ARTICLES on girls bullying boys, finds it hard to get support for it, and faces a culture whom would rather NOT deal with it, pressure to keep the pain hidden, I would just like to say:
You are disgusting!
I feel like you should reflect on what systemic oppression refers to. You have personally had trauma inflicted on your by girls and Women. For this I am terribly sorry. Abuse is awful and you have my full sympathy. I stand by my point that Men are privileged and that Women are not. Your abuse was a series of isolated incidents, local to you. The oppression that Women face, and have faced, has been brought about by our government, federal and local agencies, churches, etc etc etc … I understand your anger but I think it’s misdirected. Women didn’t abuse… Read more »
how long have you been a feminist?
3 years 4 months 14 days 6 hours and 12 minutes?
lol, it was a genuine question. the glow of your zeal and your innerpeace reminded me of the zeal and innerpeace ive seen in new converts to other ideologies/religions. i couldnt contain my curiousity
lol .. Ok, I wasn’t sure : ) I’ve submitted a piece that will speak more to my involvement with Feminism or, at least, the genesis of my opinions. Thanks for bringing a bit of much needed levity to this!
ok cool, i look forward reading your article 🙂
Andrew, I’m not going to continue with this debate any longer.
I was Disbelived, Invalidated by soceity. I had to practically make an article on the subject of what happened because, aside from one old article online, there’s NOTHING available for men like me.
Yet you continue to lump me with those who do have power.
Forget it. You don’t get it.
You stick with your world of “Male Priveledge” and “Power Over Women”, I’ll stick with mine. Thank you.
Eagle, I believe your anger and frustration. I wish there was a way to adequately discuss systems without circling back to individuals. Maybe right now there isn’t. That you had courage and fortitude to create those articles and systems, is a good thing. I think Andrew is also trying to make positive things happen and right now maybe there isn’t any way to find a common ground or connection. But I do want to just stay that it’s clear that your frustration is there and I see it.
Eagle,
I think Julie has perfectly described our two interactions. I’m sorry it feels like we’re battling each other. Believe me, that is not my intention. Thank you Julie.
That’s because “systems” are made up of individuals. I mean, how many guys like Eagle do there have to be before it’s considered systemic? What does “systemic” even mean? It’s a buzzword and a silencing tactic. it’s a way of minimizing people like Eagle, of making them into an anomaly and therefore invisible. It says to guys like Eagle “Well, we’re sorry for what ahppened to you, but you’re the only one it’s happened to, so you don’t really matter.” But thing is? He’s not the only one to whom things like this have happened. So I ask again, how… Read more »
Julie
Let me ask you:
What’s so positive about erasing people like me?
Where is the progress in invalidating my experiences?
Remember when I said in my Bullied By Girls And Women article to not paint over me so I fade into the background where no one can see me?
Guess what happened.
Anyway, I’m done.
Eagle, I have not silenced you. I don’t have that ability to silence you. I don’t want to silence you. I see you. I have not erased you. I want to be able to talk about individuals and about systems. Both. Not one or the other. If you can’t see that in my writings and my pieces and in my responses to you, that’s your issue not mine. FYI? Me getting bullied by African American women all through grade school does not mean that all African American women are systemically oppressing me. And no before you respond I am NOT… Read more »
Actually Julie, my comment was more directed at what Andrew did, not you. Sorry, I should’ve specificed more when I said “Guess what happened.” I should’ve said “Guess what andrew did” to grant specificity. I see I’ve really upset you and in no way was that the intention at all. Say, you were teased by other women too? You should’ve offered that story there in the comments of Bullied By Girls And Women. I would’ve loved to hear it as I did other women who were bullied by girls as well whom commented. Anyway, please respond soon. Let me know… Read more »
Eagle, thanks for responding and no need to feel bad. I also apologize for not asking first if you were referring to me. I assumed 😉 Not always the best thing. I have been very frustrated with the threads in general the past few days. There is so much pain and so little listening. And I really want people to own when they are actually “seen.” Not just you, but I see a lot of people on both sides saying the same thing, the same way, with the same result. It’s quite troubling. Human beings can be brilliant and beautiful… Read more »
Thanks Julie.
You keep up the good work here. And have faith.
As will I.
“His piece attempts to speak for all males and understand all women. ” “Men, on the other hand, are privileged and face nothing resembling the systemic pressures and oppressiveness that Women face.” So Tom is bad because he generalizes and then you go ahead and in the same comment generalize about all women and all men. Way to go. So Tom is supposed to observe rules of discussion that you yourself refuse to observe. “What your example doesn’t account for is the difference in power that our society has ascribed to Men and Women. Women have license to write critically… Read more »
Which circles right back around, inevitably, to the standard radfem conclusion: “Men should just shut up already.”
Too bad that this is the wrong site to be pushing that message.
Men are oblivious to the amount of “literature” and resources out there that have been available for ages to help women be better wives, girlfriends, daughters, neighbours, employees…yada yada. I think men have their noses in Maxim, or sports/business/finance sections of their newspaper too much of the time, to realize what women have been up to. It’s rather annoying to hear some men whine, “why isn’t there a ‘good women project’?” Here is a short list of “good women projects”: Good Housekeeping: This magazine has been around since 1885! And what an outdated magazine title – good to know where… Read more »
They are run by women for women, about things that many women chose to be interested in.
Its not the same thing as here, which is a social eugenics project where women, who have no experience of being men, as allowed to describe and define men’s reality for them, and dictate to them how they should be or not be.
Aisle Alter Hymn on a mass scale. It actually in a way promotes a negative female stereotype – the controlling shrew that sees men as a project for her.
Hey there, controlling shrew here, here to say “hello”. If you think that men should be writing about their experiences, please write about your experience. You can submit here: https://goodmenproject.submishmash.com/submit
Otherwise — just attacking Good Men Project — what it stands for and what its intentions are — will get you banned by one of our many community moderators.
Hi Lisa I’m sorry I didn’t mean to insult you, I was talking more of the political movement that you chose to align with. It’s difficult for me to come here, and to see feminists preaching at men, and men objecting and refuting their misinformation, bogus stats. and abuse denial for a year now, and to see little to no change, even though the men that are objecting men are the consumers and target market here. Were some male run Islamic or christian group to entrench itself in Jezebele and start defining women, preaching original sin, how women are accountable… Read more »
Absolutely no offense taken Alan — thanks for re-engaging thoughtfully. First of all — we are a community-run site. People who write for us do so because they write for us. I am going to say to you what I say to everyone else — if you want to be a part of the change — step up and help create that change. “Be the change that you want to see in the world” — that’s what that means. Write an article for us, from your experience, and you can have an upfront position on any topics related to manhood,… Read more »
Well Lisa, I don’t think that its truly community based, the publications editorial policies and choice of regulars on the roster are clear and overt, and it was made very clear last March how its to be, who is welcome and who is not, the feminist movement is in a privileged position here. Non feminist male and men’s movement voices are second fiddle to feminist voices. Even if I could write I’d be sure that the deck was stacked against me.
“They are run by women for women, about things that many women chose to be interested in.” Regardless of who they’re run by, do you hear women or men for that matter, whining how these lifestyle resources to improve women’s lives, relationships, families, communities – have DEGRADED our culture? As a subscriber to some of these magazines, I can tell you there are monthly articles and real-life stories slotted into these magazine pages which tackle and address social problems in our country and abroad – typically gender-based crimes and poverty. Beauty and fashion magazines often contain these thought provoking stories… Read more »
Taylor
“The GMP could be that classroom for men”
Yes I know that’s how some view it, a place for a gynocentric political movement to scold men, and tell them that they have the modern version of original sin and define and redfine them redefine Its very degrading.
That’s the crux, isn’t it? The notion that the direction of the content—the tone, the questions asked, the forum for men to answer honestly–is not up to either the editors or the readers. Never mind that the magazine was conceived as a forum for men to share and discover their own stories.No, men should welcome an online magazine called “The Good Men Project” being turned into a “classroom for me” so that those who know exactly how men should think, speak, and self-visualize can explain them to themselves, most especially what’s wrong with them.
again, a great post
Because men for eons were taught to be providers, and thus they were raised and trained to be good income earners, defend their family, die for their country, etc.
We owe it to women to not allow them to be treated or treat them like they are vulnerable, to assume they are so weak they cannot ever abuse someone or ever be in the wrong, or have physical strength. Women are not children, women are every bit as capable as a man of inflicting serious damage and abuse. Too often I see people attempt to treat women as if they have a child’s strength and thus cannot hurt anyone but it’s time for that to change, no longer should it be an excuse to ignore abuse nor deny them… Read more »
Got to pull you up on your clothes Evolved Emperor Sir. There was always a good man project, it used be called the real man project, before that it was called the gentleman project. They all have this in common – only men are accountable, and so they erase female agency. You are not as enlightened or progressive as you believe yourself to be (although a seductive proposition no doubt), you are perpetuating an age old system known as patriarchy, progressive male feminists are the new chivalrous white knights defending the ladies honor and upholding the code, and feminists are… Read more »
Isn’t the GMP about multiple definitions of masculinity?
Peter
I think that TGMP is about multiple definitions of masculinity within the old male gender box,
it seems to be about holding masculinity accountable, masculinity has always been constructed as the accountable gender, if there is only one gender that’s accountable, there has to be one that isn’t.
So this is the old men have agency and act / women are passive no actors without agency system replicating itself and mainly under the influence of feminism.
Women _should_ be held accountable for their words and actions, of course. But feminism has taught them to reject any such messages coming from men; they’ll have to learn this lesson themselves, from within. They’ll have to grow up and choose to ACCEPT responsibillity for themselves.
And until they do, we’ll withhold our respect for them.
So if men owe something to women, then women must owe something to men. What would that be? And the answer must be gender based, since anything else would just mean that humans owe humans.
I do love it that so many are making comment!
It’s so interesting to read!
I love clear thinkers and great minds!
A person who never made a mistake never tried anything new.
Albert Einstein
Discussion and Dialogue are regarded as arts – some are good at it and others just preach!