This comment was from Julie Gillis on Lessons From the Seduction Community, Part Three: Explicit and Tacit Sexual Communication
Enthusiastic Consent as a concept is great for both men and women. In fact, I can envision a world where sex ed goes past the birds and bees, and sees sexual health and pleasure as a person’s birthright. In addition to talking about reproduction, there could be classes on “How to read body language.” “How to ask for consent in a sexy way.” (I like the way my hand feels on your thigh, do you? whispered in an ear at the bar gives the man/woman the opportunity to check in, while letting the person know they like touching them, giving the other person an “out” if they don’t.)
We don’t live in that world though. In Texas, we live in a world where abstinence only is the name of the game, text books are filled with inaccuracies about birth control, and girls are taught that “True Love Waits.” We don’t have a world in Texas where the idea of consent period really works. Attitudes are “Slut/Dawg, Don’t Ask Don’t Tell, It’s not sex if it’s anal/oral, and god help anyone, boy or girl if they are under the age of legal consent (which I believe is 17).
So, for me personally, it’s all well and good to talk to college aged students about consent and communication, but the entire paradigm of sexuality in the US is kind of fracked, in my opinion.
Women play games, men learn games to counterbalance the women’s games, women need “convincing” but don’t own their own agency, men are confused at the mixed messages and how much of this could be solved if we were willing to discuss sex like any other social interaction (and is it different or is it not).
Lots of people manage consent through body language. Lots of people can’t read body language at all. No one really learns how to use verbal communication in a sexy way, and I think they should rehearse.
If I’m kissing someone, and I say, “This feels so good I’ could do it for hours.” That’s a pretty huge yes to kissing. And there is, if I’m saying that, an implied “more.”
People have to own their shit, men and women both. Men should be able to say no. Men should be able to say, “I love kissing you and I want more, you are turning me on so much.” If the woman doesn’t want more, she needs to say so and then deal with the fact the man might want to end the night.
And we should start with actually teaching about sex ed frankly.
Also, I think teaching kids about consent and boundaries non sexually is a a great way to start. Don’t take my pencils without asking. I’ll ask you if I can borrow some paper. Jesus, that should be basic no matter the gender and I just don’t think sex should be that different.
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photo by artemsco / flickr
The problem with the whole consent hang up seems to be that women demand men to be initiators. That is to say that most women prefer a man to be dominating and not seek consent overtly. Naturally that doesn’t mean they want men to ignore their feelings. It is more the opposite. They want men to be so good at figuring out their feelings that they never have to commit to explicit consent. If women suddenly all changed to think that constantly asking for consent (or enthusiastic consent) at each step was romantic or sexy then men would very quickly… Read more »
I realize I can’t convince you that women do ask men out. Women do make moves. Women do get rejected. Not just me! I realize I must seem like a freak for wanting there to be more communication, that the women I know who promote this stuff are freaks, but they exist. I think both sexes usually are so nervous and tense about sex and communication that they want both parties to “just know.” And they play into dominant and submissive roles that movies, media, books etc mirror. But people don’t always just know. And I’ve been out with men… Read more »
Oh I agree – I probably should have said “…also develop an enthusiastic no” The problems arise with inexperienced, younger men and women who have yet to develop “bedroom eyes” and are left handed, without thumbs, and hopping up and down on one foot – when it comes to sexuality. Enthusiasm usually comes from experience – being able to reasonably predict what you’re getting yourself into. And with that experience I can then allow myself to be less than enthusiastic, if I care to, while still saying yes or no. I do need the option of being less than enthusiastic… Read more »
Ah yes. And in a society that is heavy on abstinence-only education, it’s difficult for people to gain a solid foundation of knowledge upon which to build up experience. That’s what I appreciated about the original post – knowledge is power. (Note: saying “knowledge is power” in the bedroom may produce mixed results, ha.)
What about the concept in reality?
Enthusiastic verbal consent for each and every sexual escalation or else its rape is a very separatist ideology. If feminists make it a reality, heterosexual men and women will have a large and very dangerous mood killing social and legal structure placed in between them.
In my opinion the enthusiastic consent movement is crypto-radical separatism that the radicals are using the naive fun feminists to install.
I believe it is a better bang for the buck (pardon the pun) to develop an enthusiastic no, rather than speculate about the level of enthusiasm in an enthusiastic yes.
An enthusiastic no is less prone to misunderstanding.
You can practice this skill when marketing agencies call you at home trying to sell life insurance on your pet.
“An enthusiastic no is less prone to misunderstanding.”
Know what’s even less prone to misunderstanding and much more sexy than hovering on the edge of “is it or isn’t it a no”? Someone looking at you with those sexy bedroom eyes, begging you to put your ___ on their ___. Defending the laziness of merely avoiding a “no” will not earn you quite the same reputation as a lover, as learning the fine art of getting someone so enthusiastic about saying “yes” that they’ll sing your praises to the entire neighborhood.
I think this changed in terms of the law when the concept of mens rea got disgarded by the law.
After all, if you don’t believe you are commiting a crime then you aren’t. In this concept if you honestly believe you have consent then you aren’t breaking the law.
the drunken aspect of it is even more bizarre, if both a drunk, then the man is guilty but not the woman. If you doubt this, I dare you to find a case where a woman has been charged and convicted of druken sex with a man.
Relationships are a real minefield these days. Drunken sex is a recipe for disaster where any perceptions of consent are meaningless. Men need to keep their sexuality in check and be very cautious of any easy lay.
the whole concept of enthusiastic consent as it relates to the law is rather bizarre to me. WHY?, it leaves so much open to the mind of both people.
How does a man defend himself against this so called enthusiastic consent, after all, the concept of mens rea essentially states that a person must have a guilty mind in order to commit a crime.
Of course for sexual crimes, mens rea is pretty much thrown out the window.
Sexual pleasure is not a birthright; to be honest no pleasure is a birthright at all. Am I entitled to having a pleasure of riding with a top model in a great car ? No, I have to work to make it reality.
And TBH, I can’t imagine a stranger lesson than “how to ask for consent in sexy way”
So… you’re arguing for the right to be a boring and uninspiring lover? 😀
@Wirbelwind
-“Sexual pleasure is not a birthright; to be honest no pleasure is a birthright at all”
…Well…Have you ever dated Palmela Handerson? I think she would beg to differ..
All kidding aside I think what’s not being said is that women often deffer sexual aggression to men so as to maintain a semblance of aloof virtue. It sounds bad but not all women know themselves well enough to itemize and rationalize their own seduction. I still thing in a perfect world Men & Women both will practice ambiguous seduction methods.
Still, If Enthusiastic Consent works then I’m for it.
@Wirbelwind
The BDSM community, with its emphasis on negotiation and consent, does actually teach classes on how to ask for consent in a sexy way. They’re really fun too – lots of fun stories of things people have tried.
jaclyn Friedman (the person who came up with concept) has made it clear that she would like to see the concept of ‘enthusiastic consent” become a legal standard in rape cases. I think thats where it would become problematic.
You Know who gives A LOT of enthusiastic consent?…
Prostitutes!
Actually I think they “sell” enthusiastic consent 😉
If a sex worker is in a terrible mood and the thought of a BJ is the last thing on her mind, and you pay for it and she performs, is that truly enthusiastic for the sex? Or the money? Or does it matter?
But would the thought of a BJ be last thing on your mind if you were a sex worker?
Well, aren’t their days at your job where the thought of a meeting etc is the worst thing you can think of? But there it is on your cal. You have to fake your enthusiasm, it’s part of what they pay you for.
What is this enthusiastic consent and how it differs from the regular one? Is it something like “Hip, Hip! Hurray! Let us do it.”
Enthusiasm is sexy, especially when it’s directed at me. Anything less, and it’s my job to step back and see what I can do that would be more appreciated.
Wow!