This comment was by Transhuman on the post Is Creep-Shaming Real?
Slut and Creep are equivalent in the following ways:
1) Both are a perjorative based upon behaviour – sluts have sex with “too many” partners, based upon the subjective view of the person using the term. Creeps make advances to women who do not welcome the advance, their “creepiness” is based upon the subjective view of the person using the term
2) Both terms are a slight upon the target’s reputation and attribute characteristics associated with the term with the target even if these attributes are not apparent. Sluts might be considered to also be: less intelligent, suffering STI’s, have poor hygiene to name a few. Creeps also have additional attributes associated with them; sexual deviancy, psychotic tendencies, physical weakness to name some. These additional assumptions make the named person less desirable as company, friends or romantic interests.
3) Neither term has an opposite that the target can use to demonstrate the falseness of the attribution to them. Once assigned it is an indefensible label.
I think men should reclaim Creep, after all if being a Slut is something to be proud of then Creep can be lionised as well.
—
photo: whatleydude / flickr
Nope, I can’t own “creep.” Need a new word.
The usage of creep seems to differ a bit from the one I am accustomed to. I’ve had guys initiate romantic interactions that I am uninterested in reciprocating and I wouldn’t necessarily call their behavior creepy. I would use the word creep in the following instances: unwanted physical contact, especially if repeated and especially if the subject has been asked to stop; unwanted requests to enter the vehicle of an unknown subject especially if accompanied by comments on my physical attractiveness, and especially if the subject appears to be stronger than me physically; threats–either physical or nonphysical (either on their… Read more »
The usage of creep seems to differ a bit from the one I am accustomed to. I’ve had guys initiate romantic interactions that I am uninterested in reciprocating and I wouldn’t necessarily call their behavior creepy. I would use the word creep in the following instances: unwanted physical contact, especially if repeated and especially if the subject has been asked to stop; unwanted requests to enter the vehicle of an unknown subject especially if accompanied by comments on my physical attractiveness, and especially if the subject appears to be stronger than me physically; threats–either physical or nonphysical (either on their… Read more »
I feel the same way about the use of the word slut. All too often I hear slut defined as a women with a lot of sexual partners, but I’ve never known actual counts to be related. To me, and most men I know, a slut is someone who overtly and unashamedly promotes and provides their sexuality in a manner deemed inappropriate for the situation. A woman who has a lot of sexual partners is not a slut. A woman who is actively and openly trying to attain as high a sexual partner count as she possibly can IS (FYI,… Read more »
Reminds me of the joke definition: a “slut” is woman who has sex with other men but not me.
As ludicrous a definition, that’s exactly right, for one of the meanings/examples. The thing is, like most derogatory words, the meaning changes based on the person saying it, their mood/attitude, the person they’re saying it to and the reason.
My personal experience is the word is used most often by women who feel threatened by the overt sexuality of another woman, and by men who feel sexually slighted. All other uses are rare in comparison.
And I’d like to point out, nether of those uses has anything to do with number of partners.
I think it’s as more playa hatin.
Remember, “don’t hate the playa, hate the game.”
I read “playa” and saw Spanish and thought “Who hates the beach?”
Haters gonna hate. Those words of wisdom get me through every Christmas visit with my family….
I’m nominating Creep Creep as the alternative to the Slut Walk. Or Creep Stalk.
Can we just all join hands and make a Slut Walk Creep Stalk? 🙂
All we are saaaayin’, is give creeps a chance… 😛
Nice!
There’s a big difference between creep and slut. “Slut” as an insult is dependant on the idea that it’s bad for a woman to have sex, and that women who have too much sex are bad people, which is obviously gendered. Meanwhile “creep” is the noun version of “creepy” which basically just means scary. The reason it gets applied to men is the assumption that only men would pursue sex, or at least only men would do it in a potentially dangerous way. There are a lot of times where men cross women’s boundaries, and these men are potentially dangerous… Read more »
I am curious why being seen to be threatening, even vaguely threatening, is a bad thing? Consider that it is based on the perception of others. I have been called aggressive and threatening; when I asked why it was simply because I was taller than them. I find it amusing that those who called me aggressive have never actually seen me angry, they were projecting their own inadequacies into the situation.. Men, as a generalisation, are raised to care far too much about the approval of women. When we can set that irrelevancy aside, creep will lose its sting. I… Read more »
I find it amusing that those who called me aggressive have never actually seen me angry, they were projecting their own inadequacies into the situation. Good point. Maybe some of the folks that like to paint you up as aggressive just because you are tall/black/large/male (and BTW I am all four of those meaning I hold the title of Big Scary Black Man) are doing so because they are projecting. I guess instead of being aggravated by their insistence that I need to change my I should just feel sorry for them and the fact that they are so insecure.… Read more »
“Men, as a generalisation, are raised to care far too much about the approval of women.” “Oh yeah there is truth here, lots of it.” Right well, not to derail, but the opposite is true too. Women are raised to believe that our self-worth is centered in how men perceive us. Yes, even with feminism, that’s still true. (To a certain extent everyone’s raised to care a hell of a lot what everyone thinks about them…constantly trying to get approval of others, but that’s another topic). And not looking to argue, because I agree with the quotes from you both… Read more »
. Women are raised to believe that our self-worth is centered in how men perceive us. Agreed. And this belief that one’s self worth is tied to how others perceive us is often used as a weapon to get us to act in certain ways. Appealing to that deep belief that what others think of us matter so much that we must change our behavior in order to please them, and thus be considered “right”. I just felt the need to step in and provide a bit of perspective…point out that women aren’t living these charmed lives free from social… Read more »
“I just felt the need to step in and provide a bit of perspective…point out that women aren’t living these charmed lives free from social expectations and burdens.”
Until you added this to the discussion, it didn’t concern whether women have it worse, or equal, or not. I believe you are trying to make a positive contribution but whether women have comparable experiences is, in this case, irrelevant. Every conversation about men is not necessarily an opportunity to talk about women.
To be fair, what you just said is very similar to many of the arguments used to justify not including men’s concerns in feminist discussions about women. It’s far less condescending and far more reasoned than “what about the menz”, but very much along the same lines.
I say let this mention be. I don’t want to be like some feminist that flips the hell out at the mention of men and assumes that any mention of men is an attempt at taking over the conversation.
You know I’ve been thinking this way for a while. I’ve grown pretty tired of being expected to walk on eggshells for women so they don’t “feel threatened”. I understand that is the result of their own experiences and fears that are shoved down their throats, but since they shouldn’t feel obligated to sooth my fears why should I feel obligated to sooth theirs? Men, as a generalisation, are raised to care far too much about the approval of women. True and I think this is a big reason why guys will bend over backwards to make sure women feel… Read more »
@ Danny “I can dig that. I may be the trifecta of presumed guilt (male/large/black, but oddly I’m only allowed to complain about two of those three, guess which one I can’t talk about without being declared a hater of women?)” I remember in a discussion months back about woman fearing men as they walk down the street, some people couldn’t see the comparison between: being BLACK walking the street and being a MAN walking the streets. I’m also black and agree that we’ve gotten the ok to complain about this but it still hurts to know our complaints wouldn’t… Read more »
Oh I remember that as well.
Just another day in the world of it being okay to talk about how you’re bring treated unfairly….unless you’re a male then nothing is unfair and you deserve how you’re treated.
“You know I’ve been thinking this way for a while. I’ve grown pretty tired of being expected to walk on eggshells for women so they don’t “feel threatened”. And I don’t think too many women feel that you should. It goes back to being able to live your life. You shouldn’t have to walk on eggshells in fear of threatening women any more than I should not drink on the town or not wear my favorite mini skirt in fear of being blamed if I’m assaulted. As long as you’re not actually disrespecting personal boundaries, you’re free to do whatever… Read more »
And I don’t think too many women feel that you should. I’m not sure about that. Its been more than once I’ve said something about this and as a black male I was basically cut in two where it was fine to say such treatment was a problem because I’m black but saying something it was a problem because I’m a man is taken as a sign that I want to control women. I’m in a situation where I could actually stop such an assailant or if I myself were one then by all means hold me responsible. But as… Read more »
I think reclaiming creep is going to be hard if for no other reason that there are some instances in which it actually fits. But I can understand the desire to push back against people that use it incorrectly. Because unlike what a certain former contributor may have said creep shaming is real and no amount of “its my opinion” will change that.
I can sort of see the comparison, but for me, “creep” isn’t a label that I simply give to unappealing men who approach me, it’s for men who genuinely make me and other women feel uncomfortable or unsafe. Creep implies that this person has a real potential to harm. Slut? Not to much. And yes, while both terms serve to shame someone, a slut, at least according popular belief (not my own mind you), doesn’t really threaten anyone’s safety other than her own ( in instances, for example, where sluts “set themselves up” to be harassed or assault). I feel… Read more »
Again please keep in mind that I don’t think sluts “set themselves up”! I think that is the on the part of the assaulter/ harasser. No one ever asks or sets themselves up for assault/rape.
@ Juile
– The problem with the term “creep” is that it’s based on a woman’s feeling towards a man.
A woman’s feelings should not have weight in a person’s mind.
– A woman who drinks until she becomes inebriated has set herself up to be taken advantage of, some people even find being inebriated rewarding as it lossens them up.
also a woman who goes somewhere with a man she barely knows.
William, I think you could make the same argument about sexual harassment in that it also relies, to some extent, on subjective experience. Also, harassment, like “creeping” disrespects and violates someone boundaries. I would never say that women’s feelings should have weight in any one’s mind, but I would say we should all be mindful of other’s boundaries, man or woman. Creeps and those who who sexually harass others tend to either miss boundaries entirely or simply ignore them. Too much alcohol and going home with strangers can be poor decisions but they are not excuses or reasons for sexual… Read more »
@Julie
Funny thing is i HAVE made the same argument about sexual harassment.
Someone who’s stepping over a person’s boundaries should be warned verbally, in a way that there’s no doubt the offending party understands.
While assaults do happen to woman who aren’t intoxicated by men they know, being intoxicated can still be a contributing factor.
Being intoxicated isn’t a crime, whether you’re doing it to loosen up, as part of a social function, or because you like the taste of a certain alcoholic beverage. The fault still lies SOLELY no the person who assaults. Women are supposed to keep from enjoying their lives or watching their every move just in case they get assaulted?
The fault still lies SOLELY no the person who assaults. Certainly but this doesn’t stop people from pointing out how the person who was assaulted took certain actions that contributed to it. William: Someone who’s stepping over a person’s boundaries should be warned verbally, in a way that there’s no doubt the offending party understands. The problem with this thought is that an assailant could very well just do something to their victim so that such clear communication isn’t possible. In fact that’s probably why assailants specifically look for people that are drunk, so they can argue, “But they didn’t… Read more »
@Danny
The assailant can even say that since they were drunk they shouldn’t be believed.
“The fault still lies SOLELY no the person who assaults. Certainly but this doesn’t stop people from pointing out how the person who was assaulted took certain actions that contributed to it.” Yes, and that’s not a problem–it’s just when it becomes the point to shame or insult the victim that it becomes the problem. We’ve discussed the drinking thing somewhat, below. The other factors usually mentioned in this context are clothing and sexual history. Yeah, women go out looking to get a mate/get laid, impress other girls, or express themselves through clothing. Men do the same thing. I don’t… Read more »
I don’t think they mean it’s justified, I think they’re just saying the person has made themselves more vulnerable and that is risky? Although quite frankly I’m confused as to what they’re trying to discuss, do they mean when people refer to drunk women as sluts and mention how they are setting themselves up/increasing their vulnerability?
Define “assault” in this case. Are you suggesting having consensual sex with an intoxicated, but self mobile woman is assault, or you talking sex with a passed out, feel noting drunk? Because it sounds an awful lot like you are trying to claim someone can not be held responsible for their own choices they make while drunk, and I will never agree with that assertion.
Sorry, this question should be aimed at the comments upstream
Mark: Assault in this case is not having drunken or tipsy consensual sex with a willing partner. That’s fine, happens all the time, within relationships and outside of them. It’s using a woman being drunk as an excuse to assault her, violate her body and space, or shame her after she’s been hurt.
So it’s okay when it’s okay, and not when it’s not. Could you be more specific, like how a guy can tell the difference between tipsy/drunken consent that is real, and the kind that can be revoked and called assault later if the consent-giver changes her mind after sobering up? I’m talking about consent of the yes, let’s do it, actively reciprocating variety, not some BS about being too incapacitated to say No. Also, do the same standards hold for men? If a guy has sex with a woman after he consumed a few drinks (let’s assume she’s sober for… Read more »
“do the same standards hold for men? If a guy has sex with a woman after he consumed a few drinks (let’s assume she’s sober for easiest comparison) and feels ashamed and regretful after he sobers up, does that mean she assaulted him?” Who said this was OK for women to do? It happens, and it sucks and can cause problems…but it’s no cause to put a man in jail, and the same vice versa. The point I was initially trying to make was that women can drink too (as men do often) and not be blamed when they end… Read more »
Aya, “Who said this was OK for women to do?” Actually, a great many of the rape victim advocacy groups say any use of alcohol makes any sex, consensual or not, a rape. The FBI definition does so as well, a definition created with the aid of many of those rape groups. “but it’s no cause to put a man in jail, ” Except it is, which is one of the reasons the MRM dislikes the FBI definition (the other being the exclusion of forced envelopment as rape). The problem Marcus has is, you say “using alcohol as an excuse… Read more »
And Mark, I think that is definitely pushing the definition of rape too far. There is a lot of inebriated consensual sex that goes on this world–from college campuses to within marriage. Even TV shows friendly towards women have depicted it. Two examples off the top of my head are Lilly getting drunk as she and Marshall are trying to have a baby in HIMYM and Carrie from SATC getting wasted so that sex with Berger won’t be as awkward as it had been. The FBI definition is dangerous. Your second paragraph poses a good problem. It’s too situation dependent… Read more »
“The FBI definition is dangerous.” Yes it is, yet, any time an MRA brings up this problem outside of spaces open to the discussion, we get called rape appologists (at best). Far too many advocacy groups have openly stated “A woman can not legally give consent while under the influence of alcohol”, and as you know, this has been incorporated into the FBI definition. IE, this way of thinking is actually making policy. This is why so many MRA’s are so picky about this discussion/distinction. “It’s not a crime, just kind of sad that this man needs to get a… Read more »
First of all, I’m very glad we can have this conversation in a civil manner and hopefully educate each other. As for your honest question. I didn’t realize that I was doing it and I do see how it’s damaging. The reason I said that was that you said that if he got questioned, he would use her being drunk as the reason that she had sex with him. That was where the assumption came from. As for the other thing. If I hadn’t been embarrassed about putting myself in that situation, I might have at least called someone. As… Read more »
“That was where the assumption came from.” Fair enough. at least it wasn’t completely out of the blue. I suspect I’ve gotten so used to being on the defensive in these discussion I included the defence as subconsciously as I suspect your part was. Again, I don’t disagree his behaviour was reprehensible, or that he should be educated not to do that shit, just that it wasn’t rape (unless there was a confinement or threat of violence, and not just an internal fear, which would bring us around to the Schroedinger’s rapist discussion, which I’d rather not get into, as… Read more »
People often say alcohol helps give courage, lowers inhibition, etc. If a person is feeling shy and someone offers alcohol to loosen them up, does it become rape? By loosen up I don’t mean stumbling drunk, but maybe happy buzz or less? Still able to walk, and say no (though to what extent consent exists is confusing with the Australian laws), they are still capable of initiating etc. But due to alcohol beind in their system, at what point does this neutralize the ability to consent? 1 drink? Is the person offering a drink a decent person, a jerk, or… Read more »
So long as a person can be held accountable for drinking and driving, or for killing someone while under the influence, they are responsible for their own choices to actively and willingly participate in sexual activities while under the influence. Do note the active and willing participation part, meaning passed out drunk doesn’t count. Aya appears to agree with this, as determined in our conversation that follows. Regrettably, laws and policies are being put in to place that don’t agree with this, and that is why there is such a problem for men these days (because the reverse scenario would… Read more »
@Aya
– “Women are supposed to keep from enjoying their lives or watching their every move just in case they get assaulted?
YES
Everyday we take actions to protect our property and ourself, but when it comes to sexual assault all of a sudden it’s wrong ?
If someone wants to safely drink themselves silly they should stay home.
Really, William? So when I go out with my friends, the men in my party are allowed to get drunk but I’m not? Unless I’m the designated driver, that doesn’t sound very fair. A vagina (or any other part of my body) isn’t an IPhone. They’re an integral part of who I am, my physiology–as is my sexuality. They’re not some ‘property’ I’m I need to put a lock on or make sure I don’t accidentally drop. I can’t have a long, annoying week and go out and get some beers by myself at the local pub? I can’t enjoy… Read more »
@Aya
I wouldn’t hold someone else responsible for getting me home safely.
I didn’t say you couldn’t have a drink, just that you couldn’t become intoxicated.
Both men and woman should be responsible when drinking.
A creep is the leechy guy who followed me around in 8th grade and wouldn’t take a hint to go away until another guy (who liked me but also turned out to be a creep) had to make it clear to him… A creep is the same guy who gets mad when he is rejected by the girl and then calls her “fat” later over some trivial encounter…. A creep is the same guy 30 years later who tries to stare at my ass surreptitiously (along with the second creep mentioned above) at HS Reunion [even though we’re all married… Read more »
“Creepy behavior does not change over the decades….the only difference is now I refuse to be a victim of it…” Do you mean the creep themselves, or the behaviour? The 8th grade stuff can be those awkward folk that haven’t learned the appropriate way to socialize, hell what I know now compared to what I knew in 8th grade…I look back and think WTF were you thinking, but I had to go through the learning stage (occasionally thought of as a creep for lingering, reality was I was too shy and couldn’t think of what to say, scared shitless but… Read more »
Thanks for responding, Archy…Yeah, I was discussing this with one of my HS friends who remembers that particular guy as “THE LEECH”…I think what saved me then were my friends surrounding me…he was quite intimidated by them (they were tall and could give quite intimidating looks!)….I, however, look like a nice, petite Asian girl (I guess he assumed that because he liked me that I should like him just because I was being nice)…. He’s the head of some techie/computer company….plus I have seen him interact with other classmates/friends of mine where he seems to be appropriate but I guess… Read more »
Have you ever told him about how the leering makes you feel? Maybe “I’m not sure if you mean to do this but I’ve noticed you checking me out which itself isn’t bad however I find it quite uncomfortable when it is for so long, it feels like you are leering at me. It feels quite rude and I’d prefer you not to do it”. Basically don’t say creep, creepy, but say uncomfortable and hopefully that will wake him up to the behaviour. It’s quite possible he has NO idea of it’s effect, speaking as a guy myself who has… Read more »
There’s one key difference: Being a slut can’t really lead to legal action. Not like it does with creep. Personally, I think slut-shaming is mostly jealousy. Women say it in raw jealousy, and men say it in jealousy for, in essence, women’s privilege of sexual expression. Feminine sexuality isn’t considered slimy, threatening, or criminal like a man’s, it’s something desired. So people insult highly sexual women, seeing it as taking advantage of that system. Men’s sexuality is considered creepy, risky, and slimy, unless you meet certain requirements: -She was attracted to you already (unlikely, as she probably hasn’t noticed you… Read more »
“Personally, I think slut-shaming is mostly jealousy. Women say it in raw jealousy, and men say it in jealousy for, in essence, women’s privilege of sexual expression. Feminine sexuality isn’t considered slimy, threatening, or criminal like a man’s, it’s something desired. So people insult highly sexual women, seeing it as taking advantage of that system.” Saying that women have “privilege of sexual expression” is so wildly inaccurate. The fact that we have words like “slut” and “whore,” that we reserve these words ONLY for women, (not for men mind you, we don’t really have insulting words for promiscuous men) and… Read more »
Put away the Gender Studies textbook while you’re reading comments. There are at least three levels of privilege here, and I think you and Web are talking past each other as a result. Do our formal institutions (governments, corporations) permit women to express a sexuality? Yes, they do – women don’t have the a priori fear of institutional punishment when they invite a colleague for lunch, or touch, or flirt. Not the way men have to worry about it. Our institutions see these actions by women as non-threatening bydefault. Socially, you are right, we punish women for expressing “too much”… Read more »
“Put away the Gender Studies textbook while you’re reading comments.”
Just a reminder that the GMP Commenting Policy bans personal insults. We ask that commenters keep away from condescending and insulting language. Thanks.
….(not for men mind you, we don’t really have insulting words for promiscuous men) …..
Dog (or some other reference to an animal or beast that only thinks about sex)
Perv
Leacher (leacherous, etc…)
Womanizer
Now if you want to talk about which ones are worse then go for it (but wouldn’t that be Oppression Olympics?) but to declare that really aren’t such words for men is untrue.
I see Transhuman’s point here. People have managed to transform some slurs into words with some empowerment behind them. (My colleague hired for his graduate degree in Queer Studies, for example. No, that’s not a nickname for that degree program, that’s the official name.) I bet fifty years ago no one ever thought you could make millions of dollars singing songs with the n-word in them. However, I am honest enough to admit my own cowardice at trying to make this happen for the word “creep.” I will probably let others lead the way into the buzzsaw on that one… Read more »
Agree
If a woman can associate herself with other woman who share in the act and attract quality men at the same time, being a slut isn’t all that bad.
Not sure how this would work. Being called a slut can actually be seen as a good trait for some people (if they think you’re easy at least:P) but being called a creep is universally seen as negative, never seen a single positive aspect for that label nor anyone wanting to be that yet I’ve seen plenty who see slut as positive at times. Being known as promiscuous, etc, is negative to some, ok or “who cares” to others but being known as a creep has pretty much everyone seeing you negatively. In highly generalized simple terms, a slut can… Read more »
I don’t know many women who want to be known as sluts. Most women I know don’t like that term when it is used non-ironically. A slut may be able to get laid, but will she be loved?
I don’t like either word personally.
Known one or two that have, might have turned them on though. I think more probably just don’t give a F if someone calls them a slut. I don’t like either word but I just don’t see any good used for creep whilst I can see those who embrace slut. I don’t recall anyone I know using creep as a joke even, seems pretty unique and has a lot of power. The younger females I know throw slut around like it’s candy, both as a joke and as a serious insult, it leaves me partially confused and partially impressed to… Read more »
A girl can be a creep too. Look at Nicki Minaj’s character in Lonely Island’s “The Creep” for an exaggerated version. Usually, when a girl is ‘creepy’ though, she’s more likely to be called a ‘stalker’ or something along those lines, or be ridiculed for her appearance, awkward behavior, or sexual behavior.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLPZmPaHme0
It’s sort of a humorous reclaiming of the word in itself, actually.
@Aya ” or be ridiculed for her appearance, awkward behavior, or sexual behavior. ”
Um, Clarify for me- Are you under the impression that the only time a woman calls a man a creep is because he -knowingly- violates some boundary of hers? Because I’ve seen guys called “creeps” solely for having a lazy eye or a involuntary muscle tic.
No, 8ball. I didn’t say that. Just putting out a video addressing the subject. Yeah, there are absolutely unfair uses of the word ‘creep.’ It’s used too easily and shortchanges the good men who are labeled as such. I’ll admit to using the word myself, but it’s always been in the context of guys who are married, much older, or invading my boundaries after I’ve made it clear that I’m not interested–or in a situation where they know that I can’t be mean to them in fear of getting in trouble (for example, working retail or in a restaurant, where… Read more »
ok, that video was both funny and a little twisted. I liked it. thanks for sharing.