This comment is from Marcy on the post “Why It’s Dangerous To Say ‘Only Bad Guys Commit Rape.’” There are many reasons to talk about rape, and consent, and the harm done. At The Good Men Project, not everyone agrees that we should talk about it the way we’ve talked about on our website. But it’s the stories that get told that help give a collective understanding of a word so powerful that some people are afraid to say it out loud. Here is one of those stories that has come out of our conversation here.
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In light of this post I feel the need to share a story as well…I am a rape victim, and here is my story.
A year and a half ago I was seeing a guy and we had messed around, but never actually had sex. He was very good to me, very great guy, but I did know that he had ‘been around’ prior to us starting to see each other and it made me uneasy. I wasn’t completely ok with it, but he drew me in, we had been friends for almost a year and I had had a crush on him for months. My recent relationship had ended so I had a chance to start seeing him.
We had been seeing each other (not in an official ‘relationship’) for about a month. On the night of my birthday, I got extremely intoxicated, blacking out most of the evening. He also got extremely intoxicated. When we got back from the evening we went to bed. The next morning I woke up, realizing both of our clothes were off and I was sore…I knew that I never said yes. I don’t even remember it starting! I just remember waking up in middle of it, towards the end I suppose…and then falling back to sleep. I thought it was a dream! Sadly, it was not. What makes it all worse…this was my first time ever having intercourse and I was 22. First time ever black out drunk, first time having sex. No consent, no condom, no remembrance of it happening, better yet enjoying it. Having to wake up the next morning and buy plan B. Thank God I didn’t get pregnant. Yes I know, 22 is old…but through high school I wasn’t dating anyone serious (and wanted the first time to be with someone who loved me) and then through college I was dating a guy who was very religious and celibate. So I was celibate. So I was waiting till either marriage with him, or a new relationship with someone who loved me. And with the first time getting black out drunk…alcohol scares me because my mother was an alcoholic. So I have always been very careful. This was the first and last time I ever let go and just ‘got drunk’. Never again.
I’m still seeing him, a year and a half later. I don’t know why I didnt just end it. I believed he didn’t know what he was doing. I believed it was a mistake and didn’t think it was rape because we were seeing each other so I must have ‘set myself up for it’. And after time of thinking about it I realized it was full out rape. But I really liked him, and we’ve built a great relationship that I don’t see ending. But that night still haunts me and always will. I cry and cry when I remember that I waited so long to have sex with that perfect man and it was just taken from me. I can’t even remember it. Honestly, we should have never been that intoxicated, and now I know, I will NEVER get that intoxicated again because bad things can happen. Im even more scared of alcohol now.
So my point of telling this story…please take this seriously. Men and women alike. Do NOT GET THAT DRUNK because you have no control over what is happening after a certain point. It’s a horrible idea and leads to horrible things. So please, realize that you MUST have consent. When someone is asleep, they are a no go. Waking them up is probably even a no go because their still in and out of sleep…make sure they are 100% there. And don’t get so drunk that you cannot ask for consent or cannot give consent. If your planning to get that drunk, plan to say away from the opposite sex. And cars. And anything of value to you.
Just thought I would share…and I hope that it hits home with some people. I will always regret getting that drunk that night…because the one thing that was mine, that I had held back from everyone for all the years of my life, was taken from me. I would have never said yes sober because we weren’t ready, and I wasn’t conscious when it happened. So be sure you practice and preach consent. Please and thank you.
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photo: hollylay / flickr
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RAINN operates local crisis centers, which you can reach at any time by calling the National Sexual Assault Hotline at 1.800.656.HOPE (4673).
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Our section on rape and sexual assault, here.
I’m just saying… it’s not exactly fair to call this situation rape. Me and my boyfriend never had sex yet but I got black out drunk and had sex with him. I didn’t remember but I know it wasn’t rape. Why? Because we were making out, and I kept telling him I wanted to have sex. I remember him telling me about his ex and being sad, and I remember kissing him and saying “baby I’m not like her. You won’t get in trouble for fucking me.” And I remember him telling me how bad I wanted him inside me.… Read more »
Sure, it could be rape. If it is, then it was a bilateral rape, because he was extremely intoxicated as well. Just because he had an erection and could move doesn’t mean he was able to consent freely. If whathe did was rape then what she did was rape as well. I don’t see why they have to be mutually exclusive. He should get help and she should get help as well.
Some of the commentators have been truthful in that we can’t call this rape. They have also been untruthful in saying we CAN’T call it rape and the ones that say “oh its just black out regretful sex” are not being exactly helpful here. None of us were there, we cannot provide any kind of video, audio or witnessed proof as to whether consent was given by either party or whether it was not given by either party which means what it is is an unknown. All we DO know is that a sexual act occured. Its wrong to vilify… Read more »
Just discovered this blog via a NYTimes comment. I can completely identify with this young women’s regret and self-disgust after the fact and I am sorry for her. However, I think that calling the act rape undermines the seriousness of true rape and therefore damages all of us women. There is a difference between a jerk and a rapist.
I think that you are so incorrect. If someone was passed out consent was not given. That’s rape and as a woman you should utterly disgusted in yourself for telling this poor girl that it isn’t.
Agreed. I was excessively wrong three years ago and extremely ignorant at the time.
My apologies and I assure you I recant and disavow everything I said then. This was definitely rape and I was extremely wrong to assert otherwise.
This was RAPE, period. If your partner isn’t in a coherent state and able to consent, the answer should always be NO – on your part and theirs! To the young lady who was brave enough to share her story – please don’t allow any online critics to shame you or try to tell you how to feel. There are plenty of resources out there if you’d like more support. Sadly, from the comments above, I doubt you’ll find that space anywhere around here.
@JB- within the facts given- if you are right my feeble mind extrapolates both parties,guilty of rape.
please don’t allow any online critics to shame you or try to tell you how to feel. [Emphasis added.] Is it okay to tell someone how to feel as long as it means telling them they were raped if they never really thought so until they started reading about what some people count as rape? JB, you’re the latest (but surely not the last) to perpetuate this myth that blackout drunk means so incoherent that anyone else can tell they’re incoherent and won’t remember what they’re saying or deciding to do later on. Remember: blackout drunk and passed out are… Read more »
Thanks – and yes, I know the difference between both types of drinking. I’d also like to point out iI never called anyone here feeble or assumed a lack of intelligence on anyone’s part. What seems important here is that the author shared an experience that would be harrowing for anyone, and found that experience being invalidated publicly. None of us were there, but as someone who has been in a similar position and subjected to the same sort of invalidation and questioning – sometimes you don’t really have to do much guesswork to know that you would not, sober… Read more »
It was perhaps the author’s misfortune in this case that the story was made Comment of the Day, because while that’s often a cool thing to happen, in this case it shone a spotlight on a comment that had until that point not drawn any follow-up comments about it. That is, no one was jumping on it as a comment, either to offer support, or to “pick her apart” in the thread where it appeared. Once promoted to article, though, that made it about more than just a commenter sharing a story, whether that was her intent or not, and… Read more »
This piece would be more appropriate to a recovery blog…
I am, and this is just me, tired of another pass out, black out drunkalogue by parties in denial- I’ve listened to thousands of qualifications in the past 27 years & god willing will continue to do so until I die.
And just for the record I have no blame and only empathy for the victim in Steubenville…
I don’t know if the author was in college when this occurred, but I would have been happy if this site was listed along with RAINN..
http://www.collegedrinkingprevention.gov/Default.aspx
Robert…God forbid that a woman should held accountable for their sexual excesses and or mistakes.
I love how “regretful sex” has now turned into “I was raped”. The thing is people get drunk and they have sex because they are drunk. This is what socially happens. It’s NOT rape. He didn’t force you to do anything. It was mutual drunken sex. Only because you regret losing your virginity at 22 to someone you weren’t happy with doesn’t mean you got raped. What if he was more intoxicated than you? What if you initiated? How can you disprove any of this if you were wasted? More and more I keep hearing about people getting blackout drunk,… Read more »
She was passed…… How is that not rape? Maybe your comment would have SOME validation if she had been participating in any way, but she wasn’t because she was PASSED out.
when one is so under the influence of a substance, one is not legally able to give consent. one is not considered of sound mind. it’s this protection under the law that applies in numerous cases, especially where crimes are committed. if rape is defined as sex without consent, then rape occurred here. the author has been raped. and it may well be that her boyfriend has been as well. the point of the story, as I understand it, is to alert others or inform others not that all men are rapists, or that all strangers are rapists, or that… Read more »
Before responding to the points you raise, g, I want to point out I take the original story for what it was, which was a comment in another thread that was selected to be run as a “Comment of the Day” piece. That’s a GMP feature I like, but I think it’s easy to overestimate the goal or thesis of a comment that was never intended as a stand-alone by the author. I know I don’t write my comments with the same attention to detail the I try to give articles. So, whatever discussion flows from this one, I don’t… Read more »
Very good point about all the other activities that one is still held accountable for when drunk, but somehow sex is different. Perhaps we should look at two drunk people having sex the way we look at two drunk people having a fistfight. They can both be perpetrators and/or victims, even if one is a little drunker than the other.
As someone who has been stranger-raped, date-raped AND had unfortunate blackout sex that I did not want or mean to have, I would say that it is actually quite important not to define “rape” ONLY as whether or not the act was consensual on your part- rape gives agency to the other person(s) in the situation. The author here may have missed some crucial detail, but like the others here have commented, the details here paint a picture of unfortunate blackout sex that sounds easily just as non-consensual on both sides. Perhaps the author should talk to her partner about… Read more »
And let’s be honest,there is a long tradition in culture of using drugs to ENHANCE performance(men and women) and pleasure.We are nothing if not a culture of excess.On college campuses the kind of excesses described in the article are legendary.
Just another reason,if you are a male,especially a youngmale,to be wary.This is a potentially dangerous time for them.We live in a culture where giving mixed signals around sex,intentional or not,is the norm. Deception, for many women, is a critical part of the chase. Which means,less words about sexual needs and an expectation the male will/can figure it out without exposing her to potential rejection or em barrassment.Tell you what,let’s throw into the mix copious amounts of drugs and immaturity.
Are you blaming the alcohol? Or are you blaming him, or yourself? Why are you still with him if you believe you were raped?
I know! I know! Call on me!
She has been trained to call almost anything except “hell yes” while stone sober “rape” because a certain group of people who shall go unnamed need Big Numbers in order to have moral authority for all kinds of purposes.
See Koss.
I tend to agree with Marcus, but I don’t think we need to take shots at the author or minimize how traumatized she is.
No. You didn’t ‘set yourself up’ for anything. There are no excuses, and it wouldn’t have mattered if you were black-out drunk or sober. There is nothing you ‘should’ have done differently. Bottom line, it was rape. It doesn’t matter if it’s with someone you’re seeing or not. You are not in the wrong. Don’t EVER think that if you did something differently, it would have changed the outcome. Don’t make excuses for him.
No matter what, it’s not your fault- not even because you were black-out drunk.
Thank you for sharing your story.
If the guy co-erced her yes, but if they were both skunk-drunk and had sex, how is it rape? This over-defining of the word “rape” is extremely unhelpful.
I respectfully disagree that it was rape, based on the details given. Details that were left out may have been consistent with rape, but the story describes having sex while blackout drunk, with a partner who was also extremely intoxicated. Blackout drunk does not mean passed out unconcscious or an inability to act with any volition – it only means there was alcohol-induced amnesia afterward so that she couldn’t remember what happened. Not remembering includes the possibility (without making it a certainty) that she consented to sex, as well as the possibility that she wanted it and he didn’t, which… Read more »
I agree with Marcus. You really don’t know whether or not you consented. We do a lot irrational things when drinking that we may not have done otherwise. However, no details in this story would make me think anyone was raped. As far as not drinking so much that you loose control: great point. I consistently see people getting sick over too much alcohol and it always puzzles me. Why? You can be thoroughly drunk and happy without going so far as to have such negative consequences as the ones you discussed here or getting sick. The problem starts with… Read more »
Hell of a way for a kid to learn the business, as somebody said about a similar situation.
The drunken thrashings of a couple of nearly-unconscious people can be regrettable, and even criminal in some jurisdictions.
If we call it “rape” and conflate it with violent stranger rape, and with other violations, we’re minimizing the latters’ offense.