These are comments by AllyF and RandomStranger on the post: “Masculinity needs fixing, but femininity is just fine. The fact is, neither is broken.”
AllyF said:
Have you got any evidence that Slutwalks have been “hijacked by misandrists that like to divide the protagonists and antagonists along clear gender lines for no particular reason that it fits their narrow world view that the gender binary exists to oppress women and privilege men everywhere and always.”
From the beginning, I think one of the great things about Slutwalks have been that they are very open and inclusive of men, compared to the similar ‘reclaim the night’ type events which most certainly match the description above.
I’ve never seen any written propaganda or interviews with organisers that have suggested any of the man-hating divisiveness you allege.
I know there are some (QuietRiotGirrl on this site, for example) who argue that any attempts to frame rape in a social context of misogyny etc are de facto misandrist or anti-men. I profoundly disagree. I think rape (partly) occurs because of prevailing attitudes about deserving victims and the whole ‘slut’ narrative. If a guy thinks of some women as “sluts” then yes, Slutwalk is partly aimed at him. That’s not Slutwalk’s fault, it is his.
RandomStranger said:
Hi AllyF,
I would agree, slutwalks has dialed down the essentialist gender profiling of victims and abusers that “take back the night” explicitly indulged, to that end it seeks to expand its audience.
But you can’t deny that the gender essentialists are still in that camp, dividing and alienating would be supporters. Take one popular slutwalk slogan that made the rounds in the blogosphere “teach men not to rape”. It could have said “teach rapists not to rape”, or “criminals not to rape”, or “people not to rape” … but they chose “men”. Perhaps its not representative of the movement, but it came to be associated anyway. Regardless, the movements hasn’t really explicitly attempted to distance itself from that posture.
Photo credit: Flickr / RenderDonkey
I cannot tell you the number of feminists I have talked to that believe this is the solution of getting rid of rape.. and they ignore all the FEMALE teachers that are convicted of raping her students and MEN need to be “taught” not to rape..
Sorry… that slogan is not only endorsed by the movement but there are feminist campaigns that feminism is dumping money into based on that slogan… The day that stops.. is the day I become a feminist.
Well the Women’s Centre wasn’t asking for direct control. They were asked if they’d support it, and they gave their answer. And asking that it doesn’t contradict feminist ideas isn’t asking that they have control over it or anything. Keep in mind, the Women’s Centre would say the same thing about another Women’s Centre that wanted to pop up that failed to challenge “popular conceptions of femininity” too. I mean, feminists have been against institutions that promote traditional femininity forever. So it’s not about whether it’s men or women, it’s about traditional gender norms versus challenging those norms. I can’t… Read more »
Yeah I don’t disagree with you. I just think that you’re a bit more cynical about it than I am.
“And I find it hard to believe that they would pounce as quickly on finding out a Women’s Centre has just gotten funding. They might see what it does and then point out stuff later, but I doubt they would presume from get go that said Women’s Centre was bad before it even existed.”
And yeah, that’s true. And I think the reason behind that is because in this case it’s the feminists who are being cynical.
Sure I’ll accept that I’m a cynical person. However the folks that were railing against that center weren’t just cynical they were jumping to conclusions and presuming worst faith. And then getting mad because they weren’t asked for input. Well maybe if they weren’t running around acting like they were the end all be all of equality somebody would have spoken to them.
Cynical would be “it will probably just turn into another den of traditional masculinity”. This was “It is going to become just another den of traditional masculinity.
Still waiting to hear of the 3 things the feminists did, openly and overtly, have done to benefit men.
How did I know MRM’s would be brought into this when I asked about the feminist movement? MRM’s are used in this forum, as well as others, as though they are a force to be reckoned with. As though it’s a force anywhere near the many feminist organizations. MRM’s were brought into light because the “feminist” movement, as recognized by the forward thinking feminists that respond in this forum will admit, do very little for men. Name five … no strike that, name three major issues where feminist organizations have openly, overtly helped men in the past 30 years? Show… Read more »
My point in bringing it in was to emphasize the fact that political movements aren’t uniform. And something like feminism even less so because it’s not just political. I could just have easily mentioned the LGBT movements. It’s flipping diverse, is what it is. The big focus right now is on same-sex marriage, but there are very vocal groups of lgbt activists who think that focus is really misguided. There’s the fact that lgbt groups talk about how the repeal of DADT was a win, and yet a lot of people like to gloss over the fact that trans individuals… Read more »
Danny asked for consistency, and I was just trying to point out that you can’t really ask for that. There are some general ideas that exist across feminism, but it’s not going to be completely consistent because it’s constantly critiquing and reinventing itself. Feminism is constantly changing, so you get people who still hold onto old ideas, and you get people who embrace the new. I’m going to move the goal posts here a bit. If one cannot ask for consistency from feminists then why are they asking for it from other groups (namely men and MRAs)? …so you get… Read more »
For the first: I don’t think people want the MRM to be consistent or are calling for that. I think they just assume and expect the MRM to be consistent, and frankly part of that is the MRM’s own fault. A lot of times I’ve read MRAs talking as if they speak of ‘all men,’ and as if the MRM is a single entity. They present this idea of a completely unified and uniform front, I think because they think that doing so will give them more power. It took feminists a good while to figure out that doesn’t really… Read more »
Your first paragraph: I’m with you except for the ending sentence. While MRAs are asking for consistency I have say that feminists are doing it as well in the sense of saying that MRAs are being contradictory in saying they want to help men but then do/say things that harm men. Your second: Of course there are good feminists ideas that are “old”. Which is why I specifically mention the negative ideas that exist among the old. To use your Einstein/Newton comparison. Part of Einstein bringing a new understanding of the universe was that his work covered stuff that Newton… Read more »
“Its great that it does but the old (negative) ways die hard. And maybe its because of my own anger with the ones I’ve dealt with but it seems that they are not dying fast enough (and I know a part of it is my problem with the ones that are causing this slow death by still actively defending such ways).” That’s something that could be said for anyone who’s seeking change. Heck, I’m sure that’s exactly what some of the suffragettes thought while trying to get the right to vote. For those of us who are seeking change, it… Read more »
Mostly Danny, you and I agree on a whole lot…where we often disagree is when I point out the ways feminism is actually changing and how it’s not anti-male, and I think you see it as being more anti-male. Part of that is just our different experiences with feminism. Part of it, I think, is our different approaches to it. For the most part that is just it. Like, okay, that one university with the whole kerfuffle about a Men’s Centre and what-not. I think a lot of MRAs (or at least a lot that I saw) read that whole… Read more »
“But if there is going to be a truce and a laying down of weapons then everyone has to do it. Neither side can expect everyone one else to lay down weapons while reserving the option to stay armed.” You and I are largely talking about the U.S., here…and just take a look at the U.S.’s nuclear disarmament to see how well that goes. Heck, look at the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, or the U.K. and the IRA, or the U.K. and India (back in the 1940s). When you view something as conflict, it can start feeding into itself so that it’s… Read more »
So from their perspective… Its okay for a group that wants everyone to be free to be who they are to presume worst faith in a Men’s Centre where that presumption is based on nothing more than its a space for men, academic feminists weren’t given controlling influence of it (there were some complaints specifically about this point), and that there are MRAs that support traditional gender roles (even though as far as I could tell and recall the brains behind this Men’s Centre weren’t claiming any MRA connections) Or in other words men shouldn’t be allowed their own spaces… Read more »
Well the Women’s Centre wasn’t asking for direct control. They were asked if they’d support it, and they gave their answer. And asking that it doesn’t contradict feminist ideas isn’t asking that they have control over it or anything. Keep in mind, the Women’s Centre would say the same thing about another Women’s Centre that wanted to pop up that failed to challenge “popular conceptions of femininity” too. I mean, feminists have been against institutions that promote traditional femininity forever. So it’s not about whether it’s men or women, it’s about traditional gender norms versus challenging those norms. As for… Read more »
“But as to the bit about that university..the website I saw for that university didn’t say it was against a Men’s Centre…it said it was specifically for a Men’s Centre that “challenged popular conceptions of masculinity.” And yes it is certainly problematic and unhelpful that they initially assumed the Men’s Centre wouldn’t do this…but lemme try to explain their perspective.” I already pointed you to just how hostile that male allies program idea was. Where it specifically promoted the idea a men’s centre should be about helping women achieve their goals and reflecting on how men hurt others and not… Read more »
“The men’s rights movement is not a monolith. Furthermore, I suspect you will find it is masculinist and traditionalists that tend to be more for traditional gender norms. Ether that, or you’ll find us defending the right to maintain norms we don’t find harmful or unnatural (you will find some MRA’s are opposed to the idea men “MUST” be trained to emote like women. We don’t insist those who want to shouldn’t, just that those who don’t shouldn’t have to” This hit nail on the head … Feminists appear to be attempting to lay the ground rules as to what… Read more »
Okay, I have to put this out there … and I mean absolutely no disrespect to anyone. This has been gnawing at me so I’m just gonna say it. After reading so many articles and responses to those articles, people like Julie and Heather have gained my respect for a lot of reasons. We will forever disagree on many things but I truly believe in my heart that they are good people who honestly care about people. It irks me that they see themselves as feminists whereas in my mind they aren’t at all. It irks me that there is… Read more »
So here’s sort of my response…perhaps instead of thinking that the feminists here at GMP are outside the norm, and therefore not feminism, maybe it’s just that feminism has changed so much that you need to reconsider what your definition of feminism is. Know what I mean?
I know you’re talking to Tom but if you’ll permit. Let’s not get crazy here Heather. I can’t speak for Tom but when it comes definition of feminism I do try not to interject my own interpretations on it. But at the same time when I see the definition that I’m given being actively contradicted its hard to get a read on things. If feminists want to make women first and foremost then just go ahead and say it is and do it. If they want to make all people top priority then they should just say it is and… Read more »
Brill, then Danny I’d like some consistency from the MRA. Are they anti-feminist or pro-men? Which is their priority? Do they actually think that rape is okay, like I’ve seen in some articles at A Voice for Men? Can’t have diverse opinions within the movement. I need everyone on the same page. See the problem, here?
Brill, then Danny I’d like some consistency from the MRA. Are they anti-feminist or pro-men? Which is their priority? Do they actually think that rape is okay, like I’ve seen in some articles at A Voice for Men? Good questions. Can’t have diverse opinions within the movement. I need everyone on the same page. See the problem, here? I didn’t say there could not be diversity and they certainly don’t have to be on the same page. But since you bring up MRAs I’ll go with it for a bit. You notice how the worst examples of MRAs are constantly… Read more »
“Are they anti-feminist or pro-men? ” Presuming one does not accept that feminism is about men (which you won’t find any MRA that isn’t consistent on that point), then are these two things mutually exclusive? The idea that feminism is about equality for everyone, but only about women (and minorities), ARE two mutually exclusive ideas. How can you (not you specifically) be about helping everyone, then openly exclude men? As Danny points out, it is about the contradiction (and to be honest, I have actually gotten that very contradiction from the same person). Inconsistency wouldn’t be so much of an… Read more »
Which articles on AVFM are pro-rape?
She’s likely referring to manboobz’ quote mining and then mischaracterizing those quotes out of context, of an article railing against the “only men can stop rape” campaigns that were running at the time, such as the one showing a male infant and suggesting the masculine tendency to rape needed to be trained out of him before it’s too late (the message wasn’t quite so blunt, but it was there). Elam isn’t a very subtle man, and I’m no fan, but he doesn’t advocate rape.
ht tp://www.avoiceformen.com/women/the-unspoken-side-of-rape/
Probably this one? I’m pretty out of it on painkillers atm, but it doesn’t look very good from what I’ve read….I’ll try re-read it in a few week after my health is back.
Well I can’t find the link to the article, and I apologize for that. But there was something on there arguing that women actually want to be raped.
Julie, The problem with that supposition is: Feminism (in the aggregate in how it affects men) hasn’t changed. It was only a few short years ago at the start of Obama’s term when NOW and 80 other feminist organizations (EIGHTY!) created weave who’s sole purpose was to shift some of the economic stimulus for construction/manufacturing “shovel ready jobs” to more female friendly industries like education and medicine (even though at that time we had twice the male unemployment, and 80% of the jobs loss during the recession had been male, and education and medicine had actually shown growth during the… Read more »
I think you mean heather.
Heather: Are you asking if feminism was concerned with men, then they would have started off talking about it, like back in the early 1900s when feminism was starting to take root? No I’m asking if feminism was concerned with men why is it so hard for so many of them even today after all these changes to actually back the claims that they make. In regards to the “Jinkies” I mentioned why does the skipping around (which often goes hand in hand with denial) have to happen in the first place? Is it really that hard for people that… Read more »
Right so, first I misunderstood your question, and that was why I gave the little history lesson. Anyway… A lot of what you’re describing is stuff I have not experienced outside of the internet. Feminists I know in real life don’t contradict themselves in the way you’re discussing. A lot of mainstream feminists I know view men’s issues with a different framework than you do, and perhaps different than I do…but they don’t den them, or try to pretend they don’t exist. And they don’t say they support them in one breath, then do or say something in another that… Read more »
A lot of what you’re describing is stuff I have not experienced outside of the internet. Perhaps. And while I’ve dealt with feminists more online than offline there is still a matter of the fact that online feminism, regardless of how dominant it is, still exists. Its not as if online feminism is some sort of vacuum free of contact with the offline world. That negative feminism didn’t just spawn on the net on its own. Negative feminists introduced it there. And when talking about these offline feminists that don’t buy into that stuff I do have to wonder why… Read more »
“That negative feminism didn’t just spawn on the net on its own.” I’m actually on my way out, so I’m going to end up replying to just a few things here. So yeah…negative feminism didn’t spawn out of the ether. It is fueled in large part by people who’ve been totally screwed over, personally, by men or by specific holdovers from our patriarchal system. It is easier and emotionally satisfying to find someone to blame and hate them. But then, that’s true of anything. There is a very real and very negative conservativism in the U.S., and that didn’t spawn… Read more »
But as to your larger question as to why offline feminists are leading the movement…well that implies that there’s a single movement to lead. I wasn’t trying to make such an implication. Just as you say there are different variations. But one variation or many there is still the matter of the online voices still ringing the loudest. (And that’s also part of why said why aren’t the offliners the leading voices, to account for multiple variations). My point is that every political/ideological group has it’s crazy fringe. Every single one. What’s more, the internet gives this crazy fringe a… Read more »
@Julie .. thank you for responding. My original question as to being labeled a “feminist” stems from the “father’s rights” movement from years ago when there was a big bruha about it becoming all inclusive and include women in their efforts. Because fathers rights issues were and are so prominent a problem, I can understand why men/fathers resisted inclusion of women’s/mom’s rights in that it may dilute its efforts. As it stands, even the efforts of “father’s rights” groups have included mom’s in their fight for justice. If you look at the history of this movement though, you will find… Read more »
Given that I am not a professional feminist I don’t know that I can answer that question. I don’t have feminism as a career, I dont run in their circles in terms of blogging or conferences. I doubt any of them would know who the hell I am. I have zero influence on policy or academic reseach. I keep all my labels even when they contradict.
I suspect it’s the same reason Christina Hoff Somers choose to continue identifying as a feminist, because what feminism was before was a good thing, it just lacked a counterpart to remain balanced. Hoff Somers is one of the most self-critical feminists I’ve ever heard speak, and I respect that, because that is what’s needed, those who will challenge the negatives of feminism and hold those perpetuating those negatives accountable, and thus take it back from the gynocentric feminists, rather than just walking away and leaving the power and influence feminism still has to the radicals and man-haters.
Agreed. It’s a part of my upbringing. I can’t even hate too terribly much on Christianity, though I have left that behind. Because I do see some lovely things about Christianity even though there is so much bad stuff connected to it.
I think the part that gets aggravating/confusing/frustrating is that people like Somers get cast aside and people like Julie get drowned out by the mainstream while at the same time that mainstream is telling us that they don’t disregard or hate men. Hell look at how much ground NSWATM has gained in the relatively short time its been around. Different factions of feminism can argue all they want about how feminism isn’t anti-male but I strongly believe that if that anti-male bias didn’t exist (or if it were only “the radical ones”) then we would still pretty much not know… Read more »
Agreed, and I would love to see more feminists stand behind Hoff Somers than simply accept her ejection from feminism. I think Somers exemplifies the argument I’m trying to make above, by accepting feminism doesn’t speak for men one way or the other, she is able to be critical of the negative, man hating elements of the feminist movement without reflecting on herself and her male positive beliefs.
Another self critical feminist website I have seen and (at least on the surface) appears to be in the same vein, is http://www.ifeminists.com/e107_plugins/content/content.php?cat.9
Mark Neil: We argue that feminism has nothing to do with men’s rights, and any beliefs you all may have regarding men’s rights is something separate from your feminist beliefs, something other feminists may, or likely won’t, have. I wouldn’t say that it has nothing to do with it so much as in feminism men’s rights go hand in hand with women’s rights…until there is possibility of conflict. At that point some will recognize the conflict and at least trying to come to some common ground while some have no problem selling one up the river for the other. Take… Read more »
Well, not much I can do about that is there. I keep having the same conversation over and over and over again here, which is probably why I get defensive about nit picking and my stances.
Response to comment: https://goodmenproject.com/comment-of-the-day/it-could-have-said-teach-people-not-to-rape-but-they-chose-men/comment-page-1/#comment-208321 “That’s a bit of hyperbole on your part.” Yes it was, but how was it any different than “it seems like you are just trying to “catch” me at something. Some kind of gotcha moment.”? At no point did I make any judgements about you, I simply took the fact that you, consciously or not, identified the two issues separately, to try and explain an issue you openly stated confused you (how to differentiate who “those feminists” are), and I actually took great pains in ensuring I DIDN”T make any judgements about you. So the accusation… Read more »
“That’s a bit of hyperbole on your part.” Yes it was, but how was it any different than “it seems like you are just trying to “catch” me at something. Some kind of gotcha moment.”? At no point did I make any judgements about you, I simply took the fact that you, consciously or not, identified the two issues separately, to try and explain an issue you openly stated confused you (how to differentiate who “those feminists” are), and I actually took great pains in ensuring I DIDN”T make any judgements about you. So the accusation I was trying to… Read more »
“I wouldn’t say that it has nothing to do with it so much as in feminism men’s rights go hand in hand with women’s rights…until there is possibility of conflict. ” I come to the conclusion that feminism has nothing to do with men’s rights from those who, when prodded a little, will respond to the question “what has feminism done for men” with the response “why should feminism fight for men’s rights?”. This is a far too common answer, and it clearly shows the belief that feminism shouldn’t have any ties or responsibility to or for men and their… Read more »
I just wanted to point out that Jessica Valenti is the founder of Feministing, not Jezebel.
Thanks for the correction. I knew it was one of those three (feministing, feminista(?) or jezebel, though I did think it was the later, not sure why)
I hope you realize, I’m not trying to say being a feminist makes someone bad or wrong (though I do think the feminist movement has rightfully earned the bad reputation it has, but that’s a different argument), I’m just trying to make the argument that how an individual feminist feels about men’s concerns has absolutely NOTHING to do with their feminist beliefs (one way or the other), but are a seperate set of beliefs (that they may build off of their feminst beliefs, like a template). Oh I realize that. I just don’t want to fall into that territory where… Read more »
Oh, believe me, I have said “, if you want to insist that, then you’re no better than you claim they are” to several MRA’s myself. I see it happening, and it is a shame. “I think what’s going on is that those individual feminists that do have feelings about men’s concerns have actually managed to incorporate it into their feminist beliefs” And this is partly why I’m so adamant about trying to convince Julie and Heather (and other male positive feminists) that those male positive beliefs aren’t part of their feminist beliefs, but are actually differentiated from it. Perhaps… Read more »
What I’m wondering now Mark isn’t if Julie and male positive feminists (is that the name of a band or what?) managed to incorporate such things into their feminist beliefs but rather did the male negative ones managed to strip such things out of their feminist beliefs?
Frankly, Danny? That’s what I”ve been saying (at least in my head) all along. I’m 43 and the upbringing I had wasn’t male negative. The feminists I knew in the 70’s and 80’s and even 90’s weren’t male negative.
Sure there were some radical elements that got loud, but even so, it was more like men and women working together. Or if there were male negative elements I just didn’t get exposed to them.
Or if there were male negative elements I just didn’t get exposed to them. Or maybe because you aren’t male they didn’t hit as close to home. The negativity and disregard are so prevalent that I don’t think its right to try to write it off as “radical” anymore. But more to the point here’s the thing Julie. Nothing against you but its hard to try to see that when you see mainstream feminists on a regular basis openly being negative and dismissive about men. I appreciate that you aren’t male negative but when a fairly well known feminist can… Read more »
My signal meaning things I say or project into the space? Or do you mean I don’t “get it”? I know this will sound defensive Danny, but you don’t see me writing or commenting elsewhere do you? I’m not out trying to make it big on Feministe or Pandagon. And you really don’t know who I was around or how I grew up so I’d simply ask that you believe me when I say I was surrounded by men and women (in work, in academics, in family, in theater, in activism) who actually liked each other. I never joined into… Read more »
My signal meaning things I say or project into the space? Or do you mean I don’t “get it”? As in while you do get it (or at least you get it better than most feminists as I’ve seen) what you’re saying here is being drowned out by the louder negativity. And you really don’t know who I was around or how I grew up so I’d simply ask that you believe me when I say I was surrounded by men and women (in work, in academics, in family, in theater, in activism) who actually liked each other. I never… Read more »
“b) so long as I am not a career feminist or leader in the field (with some tangible influence or power) I don’t think my opinions are important to you. Not saying that in a mean way, it’s just if Marcotte agreed with your positions suddenly, it would mean more from her.” I’m not so sure, I think the more male positive feminists who raise their voices and speak up for men, the better. But I do believe that needs to come with an acknowledgment, and open admonishment of the male negative elements within the feminist movement (and an understanding… Read more »
There are too many early/(second wave) founding male negative feminists (Dworkin, MacKinnon, etc, we all know the list) that were accepted openly (Dworkin succedded at publishing 11 books, someone was buying them) for me to consider early feminism as anything but male apathetic. Karen DeCrow was certainly an early, influential feminist that was male positive, and I know there are others (the positives are harder to remember, in any subject). Remember, I’m not trying to argue feminism is male negative (I know, I know. Other are), just that it is male apathetic, it has no concern for men one way… Read more »
“And this is partly why I’m so adamant about trying to convince Julie and Heather (and other male positive feminists) that those male positive beliefs aren’t part of their feminist beliefs, but are actually differentiated from it.”
This is so clear. If this is what you were saying before, I totally didn’t see that somehow. I know that’s what you think, but see my entry responding to Danny.
I dunno how to convince you otherwise, Mark, except to suggest you take some gender studies classes or something. I think you’d be hard-pressed to find a feminist who isn’t also very aware of the way in which feminine men are bullied, at the very least. And that’s certainly about supporting men. You’d probably also be hard pressed to find a feminist that doesn’t wish that men were stay-at-home parents more often, though you would probably find a fair few that’d argue that most men don’t want to be stay-at-home parents because of the way our society devalues stay-at-home parents.… Read more »
. I think you’d be hard-pressed to find a feminist who isn’t also very aware of the way in which feminine men are bullied, at the very least. And that’s certainly about supporting men. Are they aware of it because of the fact that its men being mistreated or is because such mistreatment is of concern because it speaks to the idea that the feminine is valued less? You’d probably also be hard pressed to find a feminist that doesn’t wish that men were stay-at-home parents more often, though you would probably find a fair few that’d argue that most… Read more »
For your first question, both, I’d say. For your second question, it’s most certainly not about “helping women.” It’s about the idea that if what is traditionally women’s work is ever going to be viewed as equal in worth, then it can no longer be gendered. And it’s about the fact that there are men out there who want to be stay-at-home parents and they should not be stigmatized for that. That’s basically what the Steinem quote is about too.
Fair enough. I’ve just had too much of dealing with feminists that will take even the clearest of examples of men being harmed and seem to skip around until they can find some way in which women are harmed and then yell the proverbial “Jinkies” as if that’s when it matters.
If they were concerned about both they would yelled it from the start, no?
Are you asking if feminism was concerned with men, then they would have started off talking about it, like back in the early 1900s when feminism was starting to take root? Because if that’s what you’re saying, then it’s a very simplistic view of history. For one thing, ideologies and academic interpretations are constantly changing. Archaeology back in the early 1900s, for example, was very different from today…but it’s still archaeology. But secondly, historically in the west women were institutionally oppressed and it was totally legal. Women couldn’t own property or vote. They couldn’t hold the same jobs that men… Read more »
“It’s about the idea that if what is traditionally women’s work is ever going to be viewed as equal in worth, then it can no longer be gendered.” And I do believe this is how the male positive feminists see it. But then there are the male negative feminists who suggested women could not be free until the nuclear family was destroyed, and the feminists who oppose any kind of fathers rights in family courts (In the UK, and less so, but still happening here in north america, a stay at home dad will lose custody to the mother and… Read more »
I I know this is a old topik, but I like to throw my two cents anyway. I think perhaps there is a form for mis-communication here. Perhaps we should define who and how anti-male feminist are. Because I see lot of feminists who claim to be male positive and sometimes thei’r words and action speaks otherwise. I don’t doubt the good intentions. But I think perhaps what lacks is a clear definition of anti male feminism? as i said before, who, how, what and why. I dont know if such definition exist but if it doesent it would clear… Read more »
@Julie, Lisa Archy and Danny … Thank you for your response and I’m doing great. @Mark Goblowsky. They put two “hard” stints in valves that were almost 100% blocked. Arteries that I had bypass on 17 years ago (age 41). Average life of a bypass is 13 years so this was a good run. The wing that I was on had 14 rooms, sad thing was that all of them were filled with men of all ages. One guy was in his 30’s. Although I had my lap top in my room and my intent was to stay in touch,… Read more »
By not removing the hateful members, Feminist and SlutWalkers are showing that they support and agree with them.
Mark, how would you tell a woman to take responsibility for her own safety (as you said in your original comment) without being a “bigot”? If I decide not to accept a ride with a strange man am I being appropriately responsible or am I being a bigot? I read an article in the news awhile back about a woman who was raped by a guy who offered her a ride and I admit, my first thought was ” That was stupid!” Not that she deserved to be raped, but I thought her decision to accept the ride was dumb.… Read more »
Well it doesn’t have to be stupid, it’s not stupid to have faith in your fellow human, but it is all a gamble I guess as not everyone is trustworthy. If you don’t accept a ride with a man, BECAUSE he is a man, then it’s prejudiced unless you also don’t accept rides from strange women too. But I don’t think many of us really care if you do that as an individual, if you don’t feel safe then don’t ride with them. What makes it bad though is when your prejudice spreads to others, if you for example started… Read more »
“but it is all a gamble I guess as not everyone is trustworthy.”
I should have read your response before writing my own. This reminds me, all those examples of taking responsibility for your own safety, they aren’t (usually) hard and fast rules so much as acknowledgement of risk factors. I can break some of those tips, so long as I know I’m doing so, that it will increase my risks of danger, and I try to compensate in some way for that increased risk.
Yeah, to be aware that you’re increasing risk, or perceived risk. Unfamiliar area, dark of night which usually means people can’t see well, and are probably asleep so criminals can take advantage of this. Remote location like an alley vs a main street, a noisey place that can hide the screams, all these can increase risk. I walk with my key between my knuckles at night alone when going to my car from somewhere, I am 6’6 and large bodied but I still feel fear.
By not rendering it. Are you aware that there is/was a group of women that went around picking up male hitch hikers and raping them in Australia? So why does being responsible for ones safety need to be gendered? I don’t get in cars alone with strangers, period. doesn’t matter the gender, colour, religion, etc (sole exception is taxi’s, for what is hopefully obvious reasons). When I hear someone walking behind me in the middle of the night, I pay very close attention to the length of their shadow and their footsteps. I am cautios about how close they get… Read more »
“By not rendering it.”
Sorry, work channeling through there. Rendering should read gendering.
video or 3d work?:P
3D.
As a man who has been assaulted more times than I care to remember, I wonder how all the females and feminists would feel if they heard the words I heard often. Toughen the f… up and it wont happen to you. The consequences of those words were two fold. 1. I toughened up, 2. I hardened. 🙁 A pet peeve of mine is the fact that there is a hierarchy of assault and rape is the supposed worst. Considering rape has a multitude of ways of being done who decides which is the worst form? It is also condescending… Read more »
“Articles on this site that have discussed women’s fear of rape have generated some of the angriest responses from men that I’ve ever seen here. When women talk about being fearful for their safety and taking precautions against rape, like refusing to accept a ride from a strange man, they are accused of sexism and misandry. It seems like women can’t win. If they are too trusting and get raped, they are blamed for not beng more careful. If they are careful, refuse to talk to strange men, cross the street to avoid men etc., they are being sexist.” Please… Read more »
One of the things that bothers me most about slutwalks is that it’s based on a mischaracterization of one officers poorly worded advice. You will be hard pressed to find a direct quote of what the police officer really said, but will see those who paraphrase it to say he victim blamed rape victims. What was really said, from my understanding, was a poorly worded (and I’m paraphrasing, because I too can’t find a direct quote anymore) “you can increase the risk of being raped by dressing slutty”. Again, this is poorly worded, and honestly, attire is likely amongst the… Read more »
Actually most women are paranoid about their own safety, perhaps overly so. Articles on this site that have discussed women’s fear of rape have generated some of the angriest responses from men that I’ve ever seen here. When women talk about being fearful for their safety and taking precautions against rape, like refusing to accept a ride from a strange man, they are accused of sexism and misandry. It seems like women can’t win. If they are too trusting and get raped, they are blamed for not beng more careful. If they are careful, refuse to talk to strange men,… Read more »
Well technically those women I’ve seen comment, many of them are profiling men from their gender. It may be a normal response to perceived threats but it is sexist. This doesn’t excuse those who blame them for the rape, they’re idiots and need to be called out for it, but it also doesn’t mean it’s acceptable to have that behaviour. Remember there are people who are afraid of men being teachers, simply because of their gender, thinking they will abuse the kids. Would you say it’s acceptable for white people to avoid black people if black people were arrested more… Read more »
Pretty much. If someone wants to act on their bigotry based profiling, I really don’t care, to each their own. You don’t want to take rides from men, fine, no skin off my teeth. But the instant you start expecting behavioural changes of ME based on your biases, that’s where the problems arise. When my behaviour is impacted by your prejudice, such as attempting to force responsibility and guilt onto me (example: Only men can stop rape campaigns), or via unjust policy and laws (examples: British Airways no men beside unattended children policy, or the US education ethics board’s dear… Read more »
Agreed, even I am nervous around strangers but that’s for both men and women. I am 6’6 and get nervous of them, I could easily defend myself probably but still have that fear though it is getting better. Fear can get so bad that it is more of a risk to our lives than the risk of attack, if it gets bad like mine was where you are at home 95% of the time from fear of others.
Caution is good, but we should all try to control our fear instead of fear controlling us.
” Articles on this site that have discussed women’s fear of rape have generated some of the angriest responses from men that I’ve ever seen here.” I can’t speak for everyone, but as Archy says, and as I did in my reply to him, I believe the anger comes less from women wanting to fear for their own safety, and more about the dumping the responsibility for that fear, and worst, for alleviating it, onto us men. If you don’t want to accept a ride from a man, that’s your business. If you try telling me I shouldn’t be offering… Read more »
Thanks for that Julie.
Perhaps finding people that can write balanced and informed pieces about rape and stats. instead of publishing Slut Walk type propaganda here would end this recurring argument.
As is stands, you guys keep publishing these bigoted and uninformed writers, and then the comments section ends up like this, over and over like groundhog day.
Kit: “When you have a more balanced proportion of a crime or issue into both gender, it’s fair. But when 99% of the rapists are men, and 1 in 3 woman in America have or will be sexually abused in their lives, it’s very difficult not to genderize the situation. Because it IS gender violence.” Would someone please post the latest CDC stats please? Maybe we should make it priority every time someone peddles this myth in debates like this. Kit: “No, it’s not denying that men don’t suffer sexual abuse (by men I mean MEN, not boys – pedophilia… Read more »
I think the slogan “only men can stop rape” is a reaction to the idea that women are the ones who are responsible for stopping their own rapes by not dressing or acting slutty, not talking to strange men, not going out late at night alone etc. but yes it would be more accurate and more fair to say that “only rapists can stop rape.”. On the other hand, when women are dealing with the issue of rape, the vast majority of rapists (of women) are men. (Female-female sexual assault exists, but it’s relatively rare). So talking about rapists (of… Read more »
Yet, when we do raise our voices about it we are often called whiners or derailers or accused of whataboutthemen-ery and for piling on the feminists. When we do we get the “99% of rapist are men” statistics thrown at us. When we point out the CDC NISVS 2010 statistics which shows a completely different picture it goes unacknowledged. When male victims tell their stories on this site we get a feminist article where the concept of female rapist are called specters, where male rape is said to be qualitatively different than female rape and where individual stories from male… Read more »
So men need to get out in public and make those points, just have women have done. The first women who marched for the right to vote were reviled and insulted, but they perserved. Rather than complaining that women activists don’t address men’s issues, get out there and have your own marches, hold campus events, hand out pamphlets and all the rest. Let me be clear, I am in complete sympathy for the points you raise. But I’m tired of reading comments from guys (not you personally, necessarily) who sit on the sidelines and complain that they are not represented… Read more »
Trouble is some of those female activists claim to care about the men, claim to make others aware of the issues of men (the facebook slutwalk page had a few of these women), yet do a pretty piss poor job at it and still bleat on the womengetitworse line with the 99% of rapists are men line whilst the CDC stats show a different story. Then when the men come in to defend men, correct the female activists where they are wrong, these men can quickly be silenced and shamed out of speaking. It’s confusing, it’s insulting, it’s basically we… Read more »
Then don’t listen to and/or deal with those activists. Get put there, do your own thing. If feminists had waited around for men to help them, they wouldn’t have gotten very far. It’s lie me complaining that the NAACP isn’t addressing my issues as a white person or that a gay rights organization isn’t doing enough for straight people.
Sarah: I reserve the right to critique people who erase/minimize my experience without having to present any activist credentials first. I mean, how would it sound if I asked a woman who complained about street harassment and slut shaming whether she had attended any slut walks or passed out pamphlets? How would it sound if I suggested she stopped complaining if she hadn’t done any of those things? Isn’t that basically what you’ve told me? NAACP and gay rights organizations are poor examples as noone from NAACP have ever claimed that they help white people too, neither have any gay… Read more »
Well feminists, there you have it, someone is suggesting it’s not up to feminists to help men from what I can understand. Sarah, I’ve had feminists claim we don’t need a masculist movement, that feminism IS equalism/egalitarianism and inclusive of both genders, forgive me but I find feminism to be extremely confusing as to what it actually is. Some will treat it as women only, some will treat it as equality for all people where men and women, gay and straight are catered for. So it’s not wrong at all for men to expect feminism to give a damn about… Read more »
“If feminists had waited around for men to help them, they wouldn’t have gotten very far.”
Excuse me but massive numbers of men DID help feminists.
Archy, in regards to your statement “Trouble is some of those female activists claim to care about the men…”
If you are implying that any one of us here at the Good Men Project “claims to care about men” but doesn’t, you are wrong. If that is what you see, then I’m sorry. But we are having a very large, all encompassing and sometimes provocative conversation that allows for multiple voices. We need to understand what other people see in order to create change.
I would hope that by now you are not questioning our intentions here.
Why am I being singled out for this? I’m not implying anything to do with the GMP or the people here, I was actually talking about experiences in other blogs and the various facebook feminism pages and referring to some of the feminists there that have given me hypocritical answers to questions I’ve asked.
I don’t have any criticisms of the staff of the GMP, only thing I was curious on was finding out what triggers moderation so I can relay the info to others who might feel they’re being censored on purpose (something I don’t think is happening).
As noted before. We all care about this and we all react because we care. It’s hard to know when “those feminists” mean us or not. I can admit to being defensive not only about myself but also because I know there are loads of people doing average everyday acts of amazingness out there. Who are feminists and work on behalf of men. So yeah, I get my back up sometimes too. We have a long series of words that trigger moderation. Some change based on posts that are up. If someone was being censored or banned, we’d speak to… Read more »
Sounds to me that feminists may be confused these days and maybe they’re even fractured. Why people want to continue to be called “feminist” is confusing to me. It appears the many in this forum who continue to label themselves as feminist aren’t getting the so called feminist support they wish they had. I have no doubt in my mind that the self-proclaimed feminists on here are truly in support of men and men’s rights. At the same time though, the main stream feminist doesn’t appear to have the same forward thinking. So, I guess my question is why are… Read more »
For me? I don’t cop to just a singular label. I don’t totalize myself as “feminist” or “Mother” or “worker.” I can hold a lot of varying identifications. I support women and women’s rights. I support men and men’s rights. I support artists. I don’t support corporations. Etc.
All purpose humanist and social justice cowgirl would be the most inclusive title I could claim 😉
Also, I don’t think feminists as individuals are confused. The movement as I understand it always had factions and critiqued itself, divisions and changes based on generations.
Would you use the label MRA as well as the feminist one? Had to ask, curiosity burned a hole in my brain.
Labels are so limiting…
Probably masculanist. A) it’s more of a community that I’ve felt more relatable to, and B) it rhymes. I like that.
” I support women and women’s rights. I support men and men’s rights.” I just wanted to point out that you listed these as separate, whether you intended to or not. Many of us have been trying to demonstrate that feminism is an entirely seperate entity from men’s rights, that feminism is about women’s rights, nothing more, nothing less (some will claim feminists are a hate movement, I don’t think to many of us HERE actually say that). We argue that feminism has nothing to do with men’s rights, and any beliefs you all may have regarding men’s rights is… Read more »
While I appreciate your observation and can see your read on it. I emphasized that the way I did because Tom was asking me about labels. I support human rights. I support animal rights. They aren’t separate in my mind in the sense that I think all creatures deserve rights. I point it out because I can do both and because there may be separate needs per type of activism. Yes, of course I can combine them, but given the conversation I was placing emphasis on each. To your example, even saying “Women and Men” is subdividing. One could say… Read more »
And I’m not sure, but it seems like you are just trying to “catch” me at something. Some kind of gotcha moment. I think it’s fair to support humans, men and women, trans and cis. I see there are human issues and there are, sometimes, things that relate more to one set of genders than another. If I am supporting prostate cancer, it’s likely I’m supporting men and men’s issues. If ovarian cancer, women and women’s issues. It doesn’t mean that I see that one is better, just that I am placing my energy in one place (a subset of… Read more »
You don’t support corporations?
Since the supreme court ruled that “corporations are people”, I’m now identifying as a corporation and I would thank others not to oppress me. LOL
I was just trying to point out, even in your description you identified them as separate entities, I never attributed a preference to you, I never claimed you thought more of one than the other, just that they were each unique and separate, related under the umbrella of human rights, but still distinct. Which I feel is the same as feminism and men’s rights, despite the perpetual claim that men’s rights is part of feminism, that it’s all a single entity. You claimed to find it difficult to know what someone means by “those feminists”. I was trying to help… Read more »
If I thought you were a villain, I’d not be chatting with you. That’s a bit of hyperbole on your part. Trying to catch someone in a verbal trap isn’t villainy, it’s just what people seem to do all over the internet. If I thought you were an evil person, I wouldn’t engage with you at all, Mark. I make these assumptions because I get assumed to be different than I am. I’ve been in the same arguments so many times it’s like Groundhog’s Day at this point. The “those feminists” I think you are referring to was…here on GMP… Read more »
Just as an FYI, this is considered attempted shaming tactics to shut down conversation. It is based on the presumption that nobody is trying to do these things, and furthermore goes under the presumption that nobody would oppose it or try and stop it, but the truth is, when SFU tried to create a men’s centre, a place where these kinds of things can be discussed and planned, it was vehemently opposed. When NCFM and girlWritesWhat did a seminar for men’s issues at a California compass, nobody showed up. She was later told guys were too afraid to come out… Read more »
“I’d also encourage men if they feel strongly about this issue to organize their own walks calling for women to stop raping men.”
I wouldn’t, I think that’d be a really nasty thing to say. Women aren’t raping men, the tiny minority of women who are rapists are raping men.
I’m sorry for eventual grammar mistakes, English isn’t my mother tongue and I’m in a bit of a rush to correct it.
You made more than some grammatical errors Kit,
You made woefully misinformed and misandrist statements.
Here, read this
Electronic Journal of Human Sexuality, Volume 5, October 23, 2002
http://www.ejhs.org
From Deviance to Normalcy: Women as Sexual Aggressors
http://www.ejhs.org/volume5/deviancetonormal.htm
…I had written a big chunk of text but I accidentally erased it. Oh well. Basically I said that, if I was misandric, please tell me. And that I’m very sorry about the psychological rapes normally perpretated by women, even if I consider the article you presented me incomplete for not providing men rape data as a comparation nor presenting when or how was it reported to the police., nor the trauma presented by the victims, nor taking in account other kinds of sexual assault and harassment that do not fit in the classic frames, as it did with rape… Read more »
Kit. Yes. Men do rape women and other men. And and rob and steal and murder. And women have done those things too. While it may appear more overt, with men and violence, women are also quite capable of inflicting psychological and physical abuse on people. Sexual assault happens in straight, gay, lesbian, trans relationships. So does physical and emotional abuse. There are varying stats. I myself get very discombobulated by them and given that many men don’t report rape period, it’s likely we don’t have accurate ones on sexual assaults perpetrated on men by men or by women. The… Read more »
“Not to genderize it”? When you have a more balanced proportion of a crime or issue into both gender, it’s fair. But when 99% of the rapists are men, and 1 in 3 woman in America have or will be sexually abused in their lives, it’s very difficult not to genderize the situation. Because it IS gender violence. No, it’s not denying that men don’t suffer sexual abuse (by men I mean MEN, not boys – pedophilia is sexual attraction for children and in most cases it mechanisms of preference are completely dissociated from the victims gender, but for their… Read more »
I’ll just say its not 99%, this is a bullshit statistic. The same as me saying all terrorists are Muslims (because we don’t categorize what other nationalities do as terrorism, of course).
If you can show me some data saying that the massive number of terrorists (something 95% or more) are Muslims, in all the world, I could give credit to that statement. But I don’t think you can, because it’s not.
The information I got was from multiple researches around, including a report from the U.S. Bureau of Justice, who firts provided that information. I have the link to another study, made in 2010, here: http://www.mincava.umn.edu/documents/sexoff/sexoff.html#id572134
Kit, Citing police reports is inaccurate, I suspect that you know that as most people in this debate know that trick. They are inaccurate because women are much more likely to report a sexual assault or rape and more likely to over/false report, while men are much less likely to report. So, police reports are no indication of the rate of sex criminality by gender. Read this if you are interested in informing yourself about the rates of sex criminality by gender. https://goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/gender-and-sexual-violence-manufacturing-victimhood-marginalizing-victims/ MOD EDIT: Please avoid attacking other commentators. Questioning people’s sincerity like that isn’t conducive to a reasoned… Read more »
You do realize rape is often defined as forcibly penetrating someone? Which means women would have to use a dildo, their tongue, or their fingers to rape someone? Do you also realize that when the rape definition is expanded to include being forced to penetrate, as in a woman forcing a man to have sex with her, the breakdown of rapists for a one year period is around 60% male, 40% female? The majority of sexual abuse against men is perpetrated by females, the majority of rapes (forced to penetrate included in this term I use) are perpetrated by WOMEN.… Read more »
And Kits response to this information is?
Kit, Your claims about sexual violence are factually untrue. The CDC report that came out recently showed that between 40% to 60% of those who rape males are female. According to that same report, 1 in 5 men in America experience sexual abuse in their lives, and the researchers got that high a rate despite excluding female-perpetrated sexual violence as rape. What people fear has nothing to do with what can actually happen to them. The majority of sexual violence is committed by someone the victim knows, and it is actually men and boys who face a higher risk of… Read more »
As for your comment that men and boys raped by women will enjoy it and consent to it, I would just like to thank you for showing exactly what feminists actually think about women’s sexual violence against men and boys. I would also like to thank the resident feminists at GMP for having the courage to speak up in defense of male victims. Wait. My apologies. That has not happened. Jacob I got that vibe too and I am desparately hoping that that is not what Kit meant. I’m hoping they meant it as “most of the sexual encounters guys… Read more »
Um? I’ve posted numerous times about the evils of rape, listening to men and of course acknowleging that men are raped and that women can be predators.
I’ve also spoken about in public many times. I”m a feminist and a resident here.
Thanks, Jacob.
Did you call her out on it?:P Though the comment has only been up for a few minutes, I think quite a few might still be at work, asleep (it’s 2am here in Aus, EST), etc. I have to admit I do feel better after seeing feminists correct someone for a comment like kit’s. Though it depends on the definition of rape kit is using, but from her comment on consent I presume she means forced intercourse and not forcibly penetrating (which is how rape is often defined, leaving out the majority of male sexual abuse due to women rarely… Read more »
See, just because you don’t see me commenting here doesn’t automatically mean that I’m NOT doing other things all over the place in real time. I’m not online at GMP 24/7. I’ve barely had a chance to get caught up right?
But honestly, I think sometimes that if readers don’t see a pile on here (Heather is out of town and not modding, Joanna is editing etc) then they think we’ve changed our stance or nothing we’ve done n the past counts for much.
I think the auto-moderation is catching them out, I’m pretty sure there is a trigger based on length which my comments often trigger so I already understand the delay. We all have lives to live and can’t watch for the emails 24/7. After a day or 2, people can start worrying.
And again, I’d say that just because people aren’t commenting DOESN”T mean they agree with the person. We don’t live our lives here. And it doesn’t discount that we do other work in real time. There either is some basic trust in us as commenters at GMP or their isn’t. Me not commenting isn’t an indication of how I feel about male rape. It could indicate I have a sick child, or I’m pretty confident you all can tell her what for, or I’m off duty. I mean, if I don’t see you commenting on something it’s not like I… Read more »
Julie, the comment was up for over an hour and was listed under the “Popular RIght Now” feed. While it is certainly possible that only those who commented here read the comment, it is unlikely that no feminists read it. I do not expect everyone to jump on comments that they disagree with it, however, with the recent complaint that there is too much hostility towards women and feminists in the comments, one would think that those people would not hesitate to respond to a clearly hostile comment directed at men and male victims. Yet I find it more revealing… Read more »
And I, as a moderator, rarely mod from the site because modding from wordpress is easier but doesn’t show the threads directly from the articles, only in a chronological order. Things are easy to miss unless people call them out (which they did here) or email me (which no one did). And I hadn’t been on for hours so I hadn’t seen the post. Heather, a mod, is on vacation. I have no idea what Joanna was doing but she was probably editing. The other readers? Have no idea but they don’t work for the site. We need more moderators… Read more »
I’d do it but I spend too much time here as it is:P Life getting too damn busy!
Finally a few things, and much of this goes to Archy too. 1) Jacob: I’d like to know specifically what I as a moderator (not as an editor or publisher) could do specifically to make victims of abuse feel more welcome. I already comment where I can, state my beliefs and opinions about the validity of assault on men, and acknowledge that women can be predators. I delete comments that you’d never even have seen as well, that are completely uncool, fyi. Are there other things that mods should do? I’m not speaking about publishing articles mind you, but given… Read more »
Archy and Jacob– Where were either of you with comments of support for THIS gorgeous, heartfelt, open and vulnerable piece by an abuse survivor, who is one of the writers I work with? https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/etan-patz-and-me-a-brotherhood-of-pain/ I did everything I could to get the word out about this piece, as did all the other editors. I work with abuse survivors who write for us and advocate for male survivors and I actively look for others. But the two of you are so busy complaining about the bad feminists who make survivors feel invalidated that you probably didn’t even see that piece by… Read more »
To me this just exemplifies my point. We don’t always comment or see things to comment on. Not commenting doesn’t mean we advocate/oppose something. It could mean we nodded our head/shook our head and moved on. For me, I didn’t comment there because 1) I didn’t want to do anything at all to even possibly derail (as a woman) and b) I was so shaken up about my own kids and thinking about safety that I wanted to take a day or two to process. Not commenting on Kit, doesn’t mean someone agreed with her anymore than you not commenting… Read more »
Also, I don’t want anyone getting all upset at each other over it, just pointing out that there is good stuff happening online and offline all the time. It’s not always pointed out. It’s not always visible.
And we are all “guilty” of not commenting at various points. Not that guilt is a good phrase here.
I wish we could actually trust each other more and do some GMP benefit of the doubt. I understand how hard that is though.
I’m sorry if I got worked up there… I REALLY want to support abuse survivors. It’s a HUGE thing for me with GMP. I have a hard time with the ways in which I feel there is a lot of complaining about problems (in society in general, not just on GMP) and not a lot of actual love and support given to people who are trying to do something different. Archy, you know I’ve always supported you, and worked with you on different things. I’ve got your back. Jakob, I don’t know you, but I feel for you, friend and… Read more »
Fix the RSS listing of articles and I might have seen, I had no idea it existed. I have the RSS listing on firefox’s live bookmarks along with the news etc to see the newest postings, but I guess it’s only showing some of them. It’s also showing NSWATM postings too, would prefer that to be seperate for more clarity. But as I said, basically I’ve had the worst week in years, I have a hole to fix in the drywall, I’m stressed and cranky (I’m actually avoiding commenting to much due to a mix of stress, anger, pain, and… Read more »
Archy, I’ve sent you an email. I’m sorry you’re having a bad moment. My attempt compare “Why didn’t you see this” with “Why didn’t you see this” just added fuel to a fire that was already burning. To me it’s crucial for the community to know that-like Julie said-we cannot catch all comments quickly… and sometimes even at all. We need more help with that, and have been asking for months. It’s also crucial (in my eyes and my heart) that people see the articles we post, and for those to matter more than a random comment that slips through.… Read more »
We all care about this. This is why we react so strongly. And it’s so weird how it’s hard to not react strongly (and also cut that slack). We all care. A lot.
So here we are, let’s figure out even more ways to make that change.
I realize we all care about this stuff a lot, I want to mention again though that I didn’t see the article existed, I also live +10hours GMT and usually I am alseep at this time or recently I’ve been chilling out in games and movies to get my mind off stuff. Quite a lot of articles are posted and I don’t see them sometimes for half a day, a day, a few days, hell I saw new stuff to me that was posted in 2010. I saw this article as it was either in the rss feed, or the… Read more »
Joanna, perhaps I saw Rob’s post and decided to write about it on my own blog, and I simply have not posted my response yet.
I do find it unfortunate that you think it is “complaining” to challenging a feminist who claimed that some male survivors would welcome their abuse. I would hope that people who support male survivors would challenge those kinds of statements rather than let them slide.
And I did not question whether you or Julie supported male survivors, so I would appreciate if you extended me the same courtesy.
not to speak for Joanna, but that’s not what I saw as complaining at all Jacob. I think it’s right to complain about people who are actively making false commentary on something so serious. I felt singled out for somehow not moderating, getting to moderate, saying what needed to be said etc when there is a huge forest of support here at GMP and as if it was a single tree and perhaps saying that feminists at GMP don’t welcome survivors here at the blog. When we do. We write, publish, edit, etc as per Joanna. Or were you meaning… Read more »
I think he meant the feminist commentators, not the staff itself. Part of the whole calling out the bad apples in your group stuff. But that’s my guess.
Julie, my hat is off to you for all of that. You deserve cookies, wine, whatever else you want. As you are well aware assumptions of peoples lives can be quite problematic, I’ve never thought of you as someone who does nothing but I am proud of you for both doing all that stuff and telling us about it. It’s basic reputation stuff, the more good we all hear, the more trust we all get, it’s tough to trust after meeting x amount of y group and having negative experiences so when people such as yourself speak of what you… Read more »
XO and much love, Archy
Same to you. Good news is that it’s stage 1 and a very high cure rate, found out today the chest was clear so I am much calmer then before.
That’s good to hear. Let us know if we can support you in some way.
Just keep on truckin, I’ve been offered a lot of support here which has raised my faith in humanity and helped realize my friendships are stronger than I thought.
Julie, I do not know how many moderators are here, how often they read the comments, or what comments they choose to never let anyone see. I can only judge what I see on the site. However, I do know that there have been complaints about hostility towards feminists that apparently frightens off commenters. That seems to have lead to an increase in moderating comments. Yet a clearly hostile comment directed at men and male survivors not only got through, but the very people complaining about the hostility towards feminists did not take issue with it. Moderating is a difficult… Read more »
I believe she posted what she did offline for me in relation to me asking about stuff earlier.
I know we have had our disagreements, but I would like to stand up and say I haven’t and will not personally question your moderations. You have done a wonderful job, in my experience, at what can only amount to a very difficult task given the parties involved. I’ve seen inappropriate comments from both sides pass, but they are few and far between. I have seen a lot of complaints about missing posts, but more often than not, those accusers are simply impatient and don’t grasp the basic concepts of trigger words automatically setting posts to moderation to be approved,… Read more »
Thanks Mark, that means a lot. 🙂
” or email me (which no one did).”
I tried to email you the other day about a different issue, but was unable to find or guess at your email. I know you’ve posted it in a few other threads, so I know you’re not trying to hide it, but perhaps mods can include their email under their names, or on a mouse click of your name, if emailing you is how you would like to address mod concerns. Or perhaps a “contact mod” button at the bottom of the page? Just thinking
All of us are (firstname)@goodmenproject.com
Gee … one little heart attack and a short stay in the hospital … I missed all the fire works . Nonetheless, glad to see things are on track.
WHAT??????? Are you ok?
Glad to see your ok Tom. Just goes to show, men have got to take care of themselves (I have high blood pressure too, so have had to stay very much on top of it, something I would not have done had I not gotten involved with the MRM and realized just how bad things were for men in health care). If you don’t mind discussing, how bad was it? Need surgery, bypass (doubt it given “short stay in hospital”) but just curious? And are you fairly young or more on in years? I hope you recover well and are… Read more »
Glad you are back home and still sounding chipper, Tom. Take care.
Bad luck going around huh? Hope you’re ok and get well soon.
Good to hear you’re doing alright Tom.
Stay Strong.
I’ve already answered Jacob down there. To sum it up, I expressed myself really badly. Check it out, I’m not trying to create a hatin’
Jacob, I’m very sorry for what happened to you. Not only as a feminist, nor as a rape victim too , but as a person. I’m also very sorry that I expressed myself in a way that gave you the idea that I considered male rape victims less deserving. I assure with all my heart that it’s not true. I’m not saying that all boys who are raped by women will consent to that and be happy. I’m just so dazzled of how many were raped and, by fear or imaginariums, think that it was a score. I have listened… Read more »
“What makes me sad the most is because I perceive that we are fighting a common enemy: a series of role models men and women have to act in order to be “normal”. And we fight each other.”
Statements like this gives me a great deal of hope, because (stats and oppression olympics aside) I do think feminists and masculists are fighting for the same things.
Just one question: What do you mean when you say “machism”?
But as one of them commented, after one of the boys told story where a hot girl “threw him on the bed and did him” and asked if he had been raped: “Dude, you’re such a lucky bastard”. Men are trained to see any opportunity of sex as a great opportunity. It is bad, it is wrong. And I’m really ashamed to see that feminists who claim that machism is bad for both sides don’t give a single damn. I’d be willing to believe your friend at what he said. The problem is young boys in positions like his are… Read more »
Kit,
Your response is very different from what you initially stated, so I am unsure which position you actually hold. In your initial comment you made it very clear that you do not think men face any real risk of sexual violence. Are you changing that position?
I ask because you seemed very certain in your initial comment that men and boys are not victimized at any alarming rate, while in your response you say you are “dazzled” by how many boys were abused.
It sounds like she was apologizing to you, and restating her position to be more clear.
Kit, you’ve upset some people and it would be beneficial to perhaps clarify. In any regard, I’m hesitant to take down the post based on clarity of reading the thread, but please refrain from generalizing about men’s issues regarding rape and abuse.
Julie, don’t take it down. I was looking at an older thread a couple of days back which has been decimated by moderation and is virtually unreadable. Once the comment is there and causing responses any deletion really only serves as revisionism. The result is a discussion that isn’t “honest”.
“Not to genderize it”? When you have a more balanced proportion of a crime or issue into both gender, it’s fair. But when 99% of the rapists are men, and 1 in 3 woman in America have or will be sexually abused in their lives, it’s very difficult not to genderize the situation. Because it IS gender violence. And by chance what percentage of the male population are rapists? …that, if 99% of the rapists are men, it’s a really petty gramatical correction to ask to write “teach people not to rape”, when everybody knows the possibilities a woman will… Read more »
So you actuallly should support that phrase and work on making it reality, for yourselves as eventual rape victims also – not only because the possibility a woman will rape you is low, very low, and most of the time you’ll face as “she’s so horny for me” and actually consent. Are you trying to say that most of the sexual encounters that men face will be consensual situations? Is this a way of trying to say that most sexual encounters that women face will be nonsensensual? Yeah thanks for reminding of this past Memorial Weekend where I had to… Read more »
Kit,
I was drugged and RAPED BY A WOMAN. I damned sure expect her to be included in the equation, rather than erased for the purposes of creating a hierarchy of survivors based on gender. I wasn’t raped by “Menz.” I was raped by a WOMAN. A WOMAN. How is that hard to understand?
That posting was incredibly minimizing and unnecessary.
My own story is here on GMP, if you care to see just how easily a woman can rape a man:
https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/ive-got-the-t-shirt-and-the-trauma-response-to-go-with-it/
Patriarchal dominance theory states that rape and abuse is male on female and a function of class oppression of women by men, that’s why these groups don’t say “teach people” or run no gendered intervention programs and policies, its not a people problem in their estimation.
This is slightly derailing the conversation, but I think it is related to another conversation I was having with Danny about discussions of suicide. So, yeah… Alright so this post, and the discussion surrounding Slutwalks and other feminist narratives surrounding domestic violence and sexual assault often point out that by making it gendered, it marginalizes and hides anyone who doesn’t fit into that gendered narrative. So you end up with people who think that only women can be victims of sexual assault or domestic violence. And you end up with people who think that only men can be aggressors. When… Read more »
I get what you’re saying about context. That does not mean that only women are victims of sexual assault…it just means that particular form of victim-blaming only applies to women. I can see that. However what I think bothers people is this plus the occasionally made assertion that when it comes to rape if men were raped more often it would be taken more seriously plus the active silencing of male victims. And mind you this claim is made against the backdrop of a history in which male victims are just now getting around to being recognized. (And on a… Read more »
“(And on a side note I understand that women are victim blamed for rape based on appearance. Men on the other hand are victim blamed by their very gender. If he was raped by a man “He should have been able to fight him off, if he couldn’t he deserved it/actually wanted it.”. If raped by a woman “A woman can’t rape a man because she doesn’t have the anatomy/men always want sex/an erection equals consent/he should feel lucky….”.)” Start a series of protests a la Slutwalks. Or a silent protest in the same vein as NOH8 to emphasize the… Read more »
Coulda swore I saw comments from LGBT folk criticizing some parts of feminism heavily, I know there is a problem with the treatment of trans people by some of the radfems. Guess it depends which feminism we’re all talking about, it gets a lil confusing…
Criticising? Yes. As I pointed out, you get feminists who criticise and critique feminism…so yeah you’ll get lgbt individuals critiquing feminism. You’ll get non-feminist lgbt individuals and feminist individuals critiquing it.
I was pointing out that, largely, the lgbt movement(s) and feminist movement(s) find areas of alignment and intersectionality. Queer theory, for example, borrows a lot of the ideas and framework from feminist theory.
Ah ok. I wonder if they talk to the masculists much? Maybe that movement is still too remote and separated.
I was pointing out that, largely, the lgbt movement(s) and feminist movement(s) find areas of alignment and intersectionality. Queer theory, for example, borrows a lot of the ideas and framework from feminist theory. I think an intersection of masculinists and feminists is going to be a bit harder because since they both center almost exclusively on gender relations between men and women there are a lot of places where the two simply conflict with each other. I’ve tried to work with feminists in the past and some main road blocks have been. 1. The presumption that by viture of nothing… Read more »
“Heather its great that you are willing to cop to and point out flaws in feminist thought and feminists themselves. Problem is you’re in the minority. Your larger feminist spaces still engage in the things those two road blocks while claiming that the problem isn’t with them but with men.” Except that I’m not really in the minority…feminists critique feminism all the time, pointing out the flaws and redefining it. That’s precisely why you’ve got so many different strands, both historically and now. Of all the issues with how feminism is portrayed and misunderstood by larger society, this one is… Read more »
Except that I’m not really in the minority…feminists critique feminism all the time, pointing out the flaws and redefining it. That’s precisely why you’ve got so many different strands, both historically and now. Of all the issues with how feminism is portrayed and misunderstood by larger society, this one is really a bee in my bonnet…the idea that feminism doesn’t allow for critique. Feminists have been critiquing feminism since the beginning. That only holds true for certain critiques and flaws. Argue that transgender people shouldn’t be excluded? Sure. Argue that lgbt people shouldn’t be excluded? Sure. Argue that men should… Read more »
Start a series of protests a la Slutwalks. Or a silent protest in the same vein as NOH8 to emphasize the fact that men are being silenced about this issue. Actually in the near future (later this week in fact) I’m meeting a gentleman here in town that has been trying to get a men’s group together. This might come up later. And as for the “turn about is fair play,” bit…I’ll just sort of repeat what I said earlier, which is that it isn’t. I had already said that its ultimately damning. That mentality is a sure-fire way to… Read more »
Right well now we’re so totally derailing, and I apologize to the original poster for this. But just to clarify a couple things: In the 1960s, lesbians were most certainly viewed as part of the patriarchal problem by feminism at large. For one thing, feminists were being labelled as man-hating lesbians by their opponents, and being called a lesbian was a very negative slur at the time. So they couldn’t have actual lesbians as part of their groups, because then the slurs would be sort of right. For another thing, the butch/femme paradigm was still alive and strong among a… Read more »
Right I’ll stop before this gets too long…but my point is that lgbt people weren’t just ignored or treated as not mattering. LGBT people were actively rejected from feminist organizations on the premise that they were part of the problem, not the solution. Sound familiar? Almost but not quite. Were lesbians rejected from feminist organizations under the premise that they were not only a part of the problem, but also under the premise that because they were lesbians they had power? Are lesbians having their experiences rejected by feminists under the premise that their experiences can’t be true and they… Read more »
Transwomen have had a particularly difficult time gaining recognition (both in the lgbt movement(s) and the feminist movement(s)). With regards to feminism, specifically, they’ve had a difficult time ‘proving’ that they are ‘real women.’ And part of that difficulty came from feminists trying to make the case that transgender women were “really men that were trying to invade women’s spaces” or “failed men”, etc.. Again marking them as being men and then demonizing begins as usual. Look I’m really not trying to deny the experiences that lgbt people have had with feminism but I do think their experiences are a… Read more »
I’m not sure they are comparable though, there are 2 main reasons for suicide attempts, one is a cry for help, one is to end it all. Sexual assault however is generally quite similar between the genders in that both can be penetrated, forced to penetrate, groped, etc. The discussion of male suicide though is to highlight that men are choosing to kill themselves at a much higher rate, whilst women are choosing to “cry out for help”, or use less lethal methods. It’s not meant to marginalize female victims, it’s meant to show a clear difference between successful and… Read more »
@Archy …. that was GREAT!
Heather writes: “So onto the slightly derailing bit…let’s take the discussion surrounding suicide rates and look at the same thing: how gender has been entered into the conversation. The issue of suicide in itself is not gendered…that is to say that (much like domestic violence and sexual assault) it is something that affects everyone. That means if you’re going to discuss suicide from a gendered perspective, the only responsible way to do that is to be highly contextual. You can’t just say “men are successful at committing suicide more often than women,” and leave it at that.” I disagree. A… Read more »
I meant to say:
Personally, I think a viable partial solution would be for all people (men and women) to be required to fill out an emotional well-being checklist or questionarre–when they visit the doctor or go to the emergency room.
Those are actually quite handy, I have a few over the years and it visualizes the steps forward I have taken.
I think we’ve made it clear that rape is not exclusive to one gender. I don’t know why so many so called new age feminists are struggling with changing the language to be all inclusive. As with many things, the term “follow the money” rings true in the case of VAWA as well. De-genderizing the language would open the door for a variety of programs that would take away funding for women only programs. It’s a stark reality that these lobbyists are hard at work so as to not only have funds available for their women’s programs but to also… Read more »
Great post Tom, I completely agree
I still remember seeing “only men can stop rape” posters in my first year of college and wondering what the hell they were thinking.
Which does the double duty of:
1. Assuming men are rapists, as mentioned countless times above, and
2. That women, are incapable of stopping rape of those around them either through reporting their knowledge of a crime, or by physically involving themselves in stopping sexual assaults they witness (which unfairly seems to say women aren’t strong enough to help a person being attacked).
Both are incorrect and wrongly absolve women of any bearing in sexual assault.
My thoughts were mostly along the lines of:
“That’s ridiculous, anyone who cares enough to take in the ad won’t rape anyone anyway because they’re a nice person.”
But yeah, if I’d known more about the politics of it at the time I would have made a complaint. I’m pretty sure it was a poster from USI (Union of Students in Ireland), to be honest all they do these days is make posters, they’ve outlived their usefulness.
So, according to your logic, there should be “whitewalks” with slogans like “teach blacks not to mug people”, “teach blacks to act white” etc.
Whiebelwind: “So, according to your logic, there should be “whitewalks” with slogans like “teach blacks not to mug people”, “teach blacks to act white” etc.”
No, you are far from the mark.
It’s about being inclusive of a population that has just recently begun to come out and tell their story. The fact that you use their skin color in a way that means “All are part of the oppressive class” illustrates just how ignorant you are.
Eagle, I’m not exactly sure what wirbelwinds point was. However, if he was trying to state something like: Since it is okay to paint rape as a female problem due to men being a few percentage points more likely to rape (over women raping), then it should also be okay to have anti-violence campaigns that specifically tell blacks to stop being violent, since black neighborhoods are several times more likely to exhibit violence per person. Expressed that way, he would have a point. And that point would be to show how slogans like “teach men not to rape” is just… Read more »
Seems to be ignoring reality to say ‘teach people not to rape’. Let’s face it, rape IS a gendered crime. Maybe more men need to acknowledge that and say ‘I’m a man and I stand with women against rape’. This does NOT mean that all men are rapists, but nearly all rapists are men.
Paul
Except that it’s not.
https://goodmenproject.com/abuse/cdcs-national-intimate-partner-and-sexual-violence-survey/
And those are the figures when the incarcerated population, homeless population and patients of psychiatric institutions (all of which are overwhelmingly male) aren’t sampled.
So let’s face it, rape is committed by both genders against both genders and “Only men can stop rape” is sexist.
And men are several times more likely to be the perpetrators. They are also several times LESS likely to be victims (except in one category where it is roughly even). It isn’t the case that “only men are rapists” but it surely is the case that most sexual abusers are indeed men. I am baffled how anyone could read that study and come to another conclusion.
Are you sure? How do you dismiss the CDC findings that over a 12 month period, 1.1% of men were forced to penetrate (this doesn’t include prison or wartime rape victims) verses 1.1% of women who were raped or endure a rape attempt, and that the majority (80%) of male victims were victims of female perpetrated assaults? The “men are perpetrators, women are victims” mantra has been chanted for decades unchallenged, so it’s understandable that you buy into it, but realize the ones most likely to insist on this dynamic are also the ones that profit through VAWA grants that… Read more »
Rob, when you say rape do you mean the definition the CDC report used? If so they don’t include forced to penetrate. In a 1 year period, both men and women had very similar levels of being forced to penetrate, and being forcibly penetrated, which many here will count both as rape. The perpetrators were 40% female, and 60% male, so how many times more likely are men to be the perpetrators? Rape and sexual abuse is a lot closer to parity than many realize, but many of us object to having “Men can stop rape” without also the sister… Read more »
Seems to be ignoring reality to say ‘teach people not to rape’. Then how about “teach rapists not to rape”? That would be 100% inclusive of all the reality of rape. Let’s face it, rape IS a gendered crime. Peter beat me to the punch on this. Nice one Peter. Maybe more men need to acknowledge that and say ‘I’m a man and I stand with women against rape’. Maybe women need to quit trying to shame men into standing by them by playing guilty by gender association. This does NOT mean that all men are rapists, but nearly all… Read more »
How is it gendered?! Do you assume men and boys aren’t raped? http://www.1in6.org , and read what Peter linked as well.