This comment was by Anthony Zarat on the post “When It Comes To Birth Control, Where Are The Men?”
“If men’s reproductive rights were being threatened as equally as women’s….”
If?
Men’s reproductive rights are already nearly non-existent, and men know it. Our reaction has been to drop out of relationships and marriage and fatherhood, because we know we don’t have a voice in this arena.
—Photo Flickr / sunshinecity
If a woman decides she no longer wants to support her child, she can leave it at a firestation or hospital ER and walk away. She will not be required by the State to pay any kind of child support. This tells us everything we need to know about who controls the system.
I think there is a double standard about birth control, at least about the failure or sabotage of birth control. There are women out there who “oopsy” their way into getting pregnant. Given the fact that half of the pregnancies in America are unplanned, I have a hard time believing those are all completely accidental. To a lot of people, a woman sabotaging a condom is just giving nature a little helping hand, but if a man sabotaged a condom he would be a despicable slimeball about the level of a rapist. If she forgot on purpose to take a… Read more »
@Amaranth: “The government wants to lock you up, they have to prove you guilty of a crime beyond a reasonable doubt — the standard of proof when only money is at stake is much lower. ” I am not sure where you live but in the US and Canada, you are 100% wrong. Fraud charges carry the same burden of proof as other crimes. I think you are confusing civil law with criminal law. Your example would (could) generate a civil lawsuit not criminal charges. In the case of missing CS payments, it gets to criminal contempt of court charges… Read more »
Thanks for clarifying Typhon. I am surprised that so many completely missed the point of this concise rebuttal.
I’m not sure I’d take it that far, but it has always kind of bugged me that the moment sex occurs, a man’s options are completely gone. If his partner gets pregnant, even though they were using contraception (which one would think should indicate a contractual agreement that a child was not expected), if she decides to keep the baby, he’s on the hook for 18 years of child support payments. On the other hand, if his partner gets pregnant and he’s rabidly anti-abortion, he can but sit by and cry if his partner decides to abort his child. I’m… Read more »
Every rule we’ve got for protecting people’s freedom follows the principle that personal liberty is more important than economic liberty. The government wants to lock you up, they have to prove you guilty of a crime beyond a reasonable doubt — the standard of proof when only money is at stake is much lower. Make a contract to sell Joe potatoes and walk out on it, you may be forced by a court to deliver the potatoes. Do the same thing in a contract to help Joe remodel his house, and the court may make you pay damages, but they… Read more »
Apparently you missed the part where I said there was perhaps no good solution to it. All I was saying was that the original poster had a point, women have a level of reproductive control men do not have. As other posters have noted, there have been cases of child support being ordered after a man was *RAPED*, or because an unscrupulous woman scavanged his used condom and inseminated herself with his sperm. Even if you want to make the argument that this double standard in terms of him controlling her destiny vs her controlling his (due to the different… Read more »
@Amaranth: The problem with your assertion is that “How does this person get the money”, they utilize their body to work to get it. Some work is harder on the body than other work but , they must use their body. @Liam Owens: With regards to your comment that the money isn’t hers but for the child: Actually, in every sense of the word this is incorrect. In most areas, they person who receives the money does not have to account for that money, they can spend it however they see fit. Take for example an inheritance, that money actually… Read more »
Oh, trust me, I pay child support on three children (the last of which actually lives with me 5 days out of the week, but his mother is such a lazy slug (excuse me, “Just can’t seem to find a job”) that *I* am still paying HER money. So I’m very familiar with the fact that LEGALLY, there’s no requirement that she spend the money on him. But that’s the argument you get when you talk about whether men should have to support children they didn’t want and never agreed to have based on a choice (or even fraudulent activity)… Read more »
“Every rule we’ve got for protecting people’s freedom follows the principle that personal liberty is more important than economic liberty.”
No.
Economic liberty and personal liberty are the same thing. If you force someone to assume a debt that they have not consented to assume then you are also taking away their personal liberty.
Its almost as though people purposefully miss the fact that money doesn’t just appear, that in fact you sacrifice your time (your life) and health to earn it. Not having control over your own earnings is slavery and we banned that worldwide over a century ago.
On top of that fact is the threat of prison, even for just falling on hard times as a father. How the hell can any proponent of rights and freedoms not see the injustice in that?
Just to echo what Typhon_Uncensored said, I don’t really know where Amaranth is getting her legal theory from, but it’s completely wrong. The “burden of proof” has to do with a distinction between criminal and civil cases, not based on whether or not personal liberty is on the line. A criminal case where only a fine is at stake will still require “beyond a reasonable doubt” whereas failure to obey an injunction decided by “preponderance of the evidence” (the lower standard Amaranth alludes to), can result in being jailed for civil contempt (albeit usually at a jail rather than a… Read more »
Well said
There’s a very simple solution that would give men similar reproductive rights to women. Men should have the right to opt out of parenthood during the first trimester, just as women can. This would not in any way interfere with her rights to choose whatever path she wants. That would give them both rights. If she doesn’t want to raise a child without a father, she certainly is under no obligation to. It is her choice, and her’s alone.
Not that I disagree with you, but I got torn a new solid waste exit portal about 20 years ago proposing exactly that, which has made me skittish about going down that path again. I do think it would be reasonable, though. If a woman can “opt out” through abortion, adoption or giving the baby up at a local hospital or other official location, then there ought to be a way for men to “opt out” as well. I would, however, modify your timeframe to “within the first trimester or within two weeks of being notified of his paternity, whichever… Read more »
If men are so concerned about their “reproductive rights” on the basis that they ejaculate, the they should wear a condom! Why is this so difficult? Not to mention, it helps protect from STDs…
It takes more then wearing a condom. A man also has to be sure to dispose of it himself, because wearing a condom or engaging in a sex act that no reasonable person would think could result in pregnancy are not defences against paternal responsibility. Also men should be careful not to be raped, because a lack of consent is also not a defence against paternal responsibility. Essentially every time a man orgasms he is held strictly liable for whatever happens to his ejaculate. I assume you also tell women that if she’s so concerned about her ‘reproductive rights’ she… Read more »
Male reproductive rights in my mind has two branches. The right “not” to bring a child into the world and the right to bring a child into the world with intent to care for that child. From a legal standpoint a man has the right to neither, you state that he has a social opt out.okay. With growing number of women of my generation opting out of marriage(and men as well) its creating a vacuum of rights for men. Personal, I just want a piece of paper I can have her sign that says if you carry a child of… Read more »
I am just going to come out and say it. Sex with condoms is terrible, sensation is down, worry about breakage, etc. Men need a non-condom birth control option, women have double-digits for number of options, that is NOT oppression, thats freedom. I hate condoms so much that if they were my only option to protect myself I would abstain for as long a period of time as possible to avoid them. Also, what if you have a latex allergy, or she does?
I agree, but we lose sight of something when we go TOO far down that path. Someone earlier posted a link to “GirlWritesWhat” on YouTube, who has some very interesting things to say, but in all of her discussion of how she believes contraception should be primarily a woman’s responsibility, since it is she who runs the risk of pregnancy and she who has the ability to KNOW it’s taken care of, while they guy has to trust her word… We tend to lose site of the fact that condoms, and pretty much ONLY condoms, offer protection against STDs when… Read more »
” Our reaction has been to drop out of relationships and marriage and fatherhood, because we know we don’t have a voice in this ”
We are? Really? Strange – that’s not at all what I see men around me doing. To the contrary, men are more involved and more active as fathers than probably every before.
Me as well. I see fathers much more fully involved and eager, then in my childhood.
Which is one reason I don’t get this MRA drive to wind back the clock. As far as I’m concerned, I much prefer to walk in my shoes than the shoes of my father. Being an equal partner, an equal parent, sharing responsibility for home and children *and* for providing financially for the family seems to me so much a better deal than what my parents had.
I guess so. I’d think so too, but then I’ve seen it read that women have more freedom to leave places men at a particular risk point. really humans in general have had limited reproductive rights for most of humanity. I’m all for more forms of BC.
MRAs do not want to ‘wind back the clock’. At least there is a huge proportion of them who reject traditionalist expectations on men.
Mostly its about taking the next step, not going backwards.
MRA views on marriage are more in line with 2nd wave feminism than pro marriage traditionalists. That’s hardly ‘winding the clock back’
Also I find it hysterical that some think “nobody is telling you (men) just to keep your legs closed”. As typhon mentioned, ejaculation is akin to signing on the dotted line, regardless of whether or not the guy WANTS a child.
“MRA views on marriage are more in line with 2nd wave feminism than pro marriage traditionalists. That’s hardly ‘winding the clock back’”
I’ll admit I’m not an expert on m MRA’s – most MRA sites make my head hurt. The reason they do is the repeated praising of patriarchy, the repeated calls for keeping women in their place, and the constant assertion that women are not the equals of men, or of equal worth, etc. I’ve yet to see anything from that department that is “in line with 2nd wave feminism”. At all.
“As far as I’m concerned, I much prefer to walk in my shoes than the shoes of my father.” I’m sorry about that. I was/am blessed to have a great father. My dad was the main breadwinner although my mom worked once we went to school. They had/have their primary roles and did them well, working cooperatively. We were far from rich but grew up happy and secure knowing we had both of them full time. This idea that family relationships due to feminism are better than in years gone by is a fantasy. There are more divorces and more… Read more »
Interesting. First, you say you’re sorry that I prefer the way I live my (family) life to the way my dad did. Why sorry? You don’t like progress? Second, assert that it’s “fantasy” when I (and many other men) prefer relationships based on equality and equal responsibility. That’s a bold statement. I know what my relationship with my wife and my children is like. On what basis do you call it fantasy? Third, you claim feminism explains divorces and increased number of single parents, without demonstrating even the slightest hint of causality. It’s pretty clear you don’t like the changes… Read more »
“First, you say you’re sorry that I prefer the way I live my (family) life to the way my dad did. Why sorry? You don’t like progress?” That’s a straw man. You said that, not me. I said: “I’m sorry about that. I was/am blessed to have a great father.” I like progress, as long as it’s actual progress. “Second, assert that it’s “fantasy” when I (and many other men) prefer relationships based on equality and equal responsibility.” You are misquoting me and then arguing against something I didn’t say. That’s called a straw man. I said nothing about you… Read more »
“So, it is YOUR claim that feminism has changed family life. According to you, the changes in family life were due to feminism, which includes a now 50% divorce rate.” Now that we talk about straw man…. I never made such a claim. I never said a word about feminism. I talked about men. Only about men. I talked about fathers, and fatherhood. I talked about how many men today are taking a more active, involved role as fathers. I talked about how I see that as good. You’re the one who then started raving about feminism and divorce rates… Read more »
“I never said a word about feminism. I talked about men. Only about men.” If you are going to deny saying what you did, in fact, say, it’s best to not put things in writing, time and date stamped. You have mentioned feminism several times in this thread alone. The last time at March 2, 2012 at 6:38 pm.. Because of the 50% divorce rate, fathers have less to do with their children today than when families lived together. “You’re the one who then started raving about feminism and divorce rates and all kinds of stuff that has nothing to… Read more »
Julie, I don’t think that impression is supported by data. That there are more single parent households than ever before, which means that more children are growing up without ready, daily access to one parent, usually their fathers. Which means, as a result, fathers are less involved than in years past.
You’er missing the point. The argument was that it’s not true that men, as a rule, are “dropping out of fatherhood”. Quite to the contrary, many men are spending more time and more energy on being fathers, on being with their children, than every before. A large group of men are very serious about fatherhood.
The fact that divorce rates are growing does not affect this trend.
You’er missing the point. The argument was that it’s not true that men, as a rule, are “dropping out of fatherhood”. Do you not realize that creating a strawman is actually lying about someone? You continue to claim I said something I did not and then argue against what is, in fact, a lie. YOU used the term “dropping out of fatherhood”, NOT me. Children of single parent households are at a disadvantage in building a strong relationship with both parents, especially the non-custodial parent, which is most often the father. Hence, the changes your advocate, whatever advantaged they may… Read more »
Do you even read the posts you are responding to. Do you not realize that “dropping out of fatherhood” here comes from the very post all this is in response to? That my reply was challenging this statement in the original post?
And, no – the change I speak of, the fact that many fathers insist on being as much involved in the life of their children as the mothers, have done nothing like what you claim. Quite to the contrary. And men changing how they are fathers is not “feminism”.
I don’t really know what MRAs want, I have a hard time listening to angry people. But… I do think there are legitimate concerns about male reproductive rights. If a woman wants an abortion, the father of the child cannot stop her. Yet if the father of a child does not want to be a father, he cannot require her to get an abortion. I understand there are legitimate concerns about the related 9-month commitment of pregnancy, but it is impossible to say that there is parity with respect to abortion rights. Similarly, in most states a woman can simply… Read more »
Exactly, Mike. Men are now in the position that feminists (rightly) complained about women being stuck in back in the 60s and 70s. But our concerns and complaints are ignored…. ironically, by many of the same feminists who wouldn’t accept anything less than total reproductive autonomy for their own gender.
Permit me to introduce you to the Perpetual Adolescent theme in women’s books, aka “Peter Pan Syndrome”–a long litany of complaints about men in their 20s and 30s who are failing to ‘settle down’ as society expects them to, and the ominous social disaster that this trend clearly indicates (cough). It’s sometimes expressed as “Boys who won’t grow up” or “Where are the good men?” Take a look around women’s forums (including many feminist forums!) and the Relationships section of your local bookstore or library–you’ll find millions of examples of this Dire Social Crisis. MGTOW has a lot of people… Read more »
If you don’t want babies, wear condoms …?
If we want babies we can form a committed relationship with a woman ..?
“Men’s reproductive rights are already nearly non-existent…” How is that? Nobody is telling you just to keep your legs closed. Nobody is suggesting you should just keep your rapist’s baby (and no, I don’t believe a rapist should have any right as a parent) In my experience, most fathers i know who have civil relationships with their kids’ mother also have influence in decisions made concerning those kids. And most who don’t either have a negative relationship with the mothers, or they were absent/non-contributing for the first part of the kids’ life & when they finally decided they want in,… Read more »
1) yes men get the statement that if they didn’t want to take responsibility for fatherhood they should have kept their pants zipped. 2) a father’s relationship to his child should not be mediated by the mother, it belongs to the child. 3) when a woman abandons her parental responsibilities through abortion, adoption or abandonment we say she’s exercising her right to choose to be a parent. Maybe when men have their right to consensual parenthood respected there will be fewer men abandoning the children they’ve actually _chosn_. 4) men are already expected to take responsibility for children concieved during… Read more »
Correct.
Couldn’t have said it better.
“In my experience, most fathers i know who have civil relationships with their kids’ mother also have influence in decisions made concerning those kids”
This attitude is ridiculous and sexist. If it were reversed women would be up in arms over it. Since when is it ok for a woman to use her kids as a bargaining chip to control the behavior of a man?
I would agree that a rapist could be denied parental rights to a baby produced by that rape. In practice that would probably be difficult to carry out in a lot of cases. There would need to be a high standard of proof in that case. He would need to be convicted of the rape and the rape itself would have to be proven to be the act that led to that pregnancy. Just her accusation of rape would not be sufficient, to my mind. Unless you want to deny access on the basis of being an “alleged rapist”? A… Read more »
Custody is already denied to ‘alleged male rapists’. Alleged(or convicted) female rapists, on the other hand, often get full custody and child support from their victims.
“Nobody is suggesting you should just keep your rapist’s baby”
They do suggest male rape victims to pay for child support though, and I believe in some cases they do. Statutory rape victims have been made to pay child support in the U.S.A even though they have no legal ability to consent to sex.
I think I have an idea what this poster is speaking about. And I could go on days about it. But I think instead I shall lead you to one of my favorite vlogger on this subject. I experiencing her as speaking with great intelligence with regard to things that more times than not a male couldn’t say without being completely disregarded.
http://youtu.be/vp8tToFv-bA
Birth control is not just about reproduction. It is more about health issues. As a lesbian, I use BC though there is absolutely no chance of my partner getting pregnant. It is completely for health issues, chemical and hormone balances, pain, etc. Men can easily get a pack of condoms if they are worried about pregnancies. Their right to condoms is not being attacked. As for reproductive rights, both the men and women should talk about these things before a serious relationship or marriage. If men feel that obligated to leave a relationship due to conflicts over children (just as… Read more »
Nobody is talking about banning any kind of contraception for women. The question is, should women have to pay for their own birth control — just like men have to? Why should women have free tubal ligation, when men have to pay for vasectomy? Why should women have free breast health, when men have to pay for prostate health? Why should women have free smoking cessation support, when men have to pay for smoking cessation? Why should women have free violence prevention treatment, when men have to pay for violence prevention? The list goes on and on. Obamacare has 134… Read more »
“Why should women have free tubal ligation, when men have to pay for vasectomy? Why should women have free breast health, when men have to pay for prostate health? Why should women have free smoking cessation support, when men have to pay for smoking cessation? Why should women have free violence prevention treatment, when men have to pay for violence prevention?” No idea. Two possibilities. Better lobbying as mentioned before. Money determined by insurance companies and risk analysis. If insurance companies determine more women are at risk for breast cancer, they’ll pay for that to be prevented. Already I’ve heard… Read more »
“I think it all should be covered, all of it.”
This.
Healthcare is like roads, its people infrastructure. A healthy populace is always better than a sick one.
“I think it all should be covered, all of it.”
Yes. Yes yes yes.
It’s not about “free” anything, or trying to get someone else to pay for my health care, it’s about making sure everyone can access it even if they get sick and can no longer work, and that there isn’t a profit motive for the insurer to find any way they can to avoid paying for necessary care, leaving people screwed.
So where’s the explanation to this bold statement? I know who this comment is from, and he constantly rails against the institute of marriage completely ignoring the fact there are just as many men out there who are happily married as there are unhappily married.
And you consider a 50% failure rate a good option? Especially when the consequences of that failure for men are closer to 80-90% total destruction….