If some ‘women’s issues’ are really all about making men feel guilty for being men, Lisa Hickey wonders, how will we move forward?
I’d been talking to Tom Matlack about running a section here on The Good Men Project about “Male Guilt” and asked him to explain more what he was thinking. “You know,” he said, “sometimes I am made to feel guilty just for being a man.”
Well, yes, I do know. Which may be surprising, given that I am a woman. And I can’t remember ever once in my life having a sense of guilt over being a woman.
But if I am being completely honest with myself, there are probably times I’ve tried to make men feel guilty for being men.
♦◊♦
It’s a funny thing, this thing called privilege. Almost like the word entitlement, two concepts I hadn’t really paid much attention to until recently. But I was reading yet another Malcolm Gladwell book where he talked about the difference in those who tend to succeed in life and those who don’t.
And one thing that happens in different socioeconomic classes is that those on the higher end of the spectrum are taught to have a sense of entitlement that those on the lower end of the spectrum simply aren’t taught. And that “sense of entitlement” is what gives you an attitude that makes you better suited to succeeding in the world.
This was an “aha” to me. I didn’t grow up with a sense of entitlement. I’d watch other people who had been brought up that way, and even early on, at age 14, 15, 16—I’d think to myself—“where did they get that instruction manual for life that no one ever handed to me?” And it never occurred to me until I read Gladwell’s book—oh, about 3 days ago—that maybe my lack of a sense of entitlement was because of the way I was brought up.
According to Gladwell, it has to do with a certain amount of “practical intelligence,” a term coined by Robert Sternberg. Practical intelligence includes “knowing what to say to whom, knowing when to say it, and knowing how to say it for maximum effect.”
Nobody had given me the memo explaining that to me. For a long time, life baffled me because I didn’t get that. Any of it. For years, I didn’t actually talk much because it I simply didn’t know—I didn’t know what to say to whom, when to say it, or how to say it for maximum effect. Eventually, I was able to figure much of that out. But what is a coping strategy when you are frustrated and don’t know how to cope because you can’t even articulate what the problem is?
You try to make the other person feel guilty.
♦◊♦
I was in a relationship with a guy that was going fairly well. It was after my husband and I had split up, when I was actively seeing more self-awareness and ways of figuring out how to better navigate this world that had scared me so much. And this guy and I talked about a lot of things, developed a true “intellectual intimacy,” and I was honest with him in ways I hadn’t been before. But at some point in the relationship, he was also completely honest with me, and I couldn’t handle it. I become emotionally manipulative (warning: don’t try this at home), and the relationship fell apart.
And long after it was too late, I realized that there were a whole bunch of feelings that came out in our relationship—love, anger, sadness, poignancy, confusion, heartbreak, joy. All of those we could work our way though, becoming closer in the process.
But the minute I tried to make him feel guilty, he turned his back and walked away.
♦◊♦
Two weeks after I met Tom Matlack, I said to him “You work harder than anyone I’ve ever met in my life.” He scoffed at that notion, said something like, “Ahh, c’mon, that can’t be true.” But it was—he not only worked harder than anyone I had ever met, he worked much, much harder. Ten-times harder. Fifteen. And yes, Tom had that ability that includes “knowing what to say to whom, knowing when to say it, and knowing how to say it for maximum effect.” But Tom had that practical knowledge because he worked at it. Not because of a privileged youth in the sense we think about it. Not because he is wealthy, which he is. But his sense of entitlement came because he knew that if he worked hard at things, he could make them happen. His “sense of entitlement” was earned, not given to him.
♦◊♦
I was talking to a Good Men Project contributor the other day about the commenters on our site. Our commenters are a lot of things—at any given moment in time they are loud, articulate, passionate, thoughtful, angry, shill, funny, nonsensical, logical, or off-the-wall. And this contributor had been the brunt of some of the not-so-easy-to-deal-with commenters. She was asking me what to do about it—what are the strategies for coping when people engaged in behaviors that felt like name-calling, critical, taunting, or just rude.
And I looked back over the comments on the thread, and one in particular—written by a man—jumped out at me:
“Women’s Issues” are virtually always framed as male-caused, even when this doesn’t make sense.
And what I discussed with the contributor—a woman—was, “What if that is the truth?”
Because if that is the case, then what we are doing is making men feel guilty for being men. And given everything, that doesn’t seem like the best way of operating in this world.
In fact, I can see it happen in real time. When feminists yell and scream and shout and do everything they can to make men feel guilty, I think there is a tendency for men to do the only thing that makes sense to them. They turn their back and walk away from the relationship.
♦◊♦
I get back around to this idea: “the problems of the world are not all the fault of men.” There should be no need for collective guilt of men. And, as women, making men feel guilty for being men serves very little purpose. Instead, what I would hope would happen is that together we gain increasing levels of awareness about how to navigate our way through a world that is changing faster than we can even imagine. And how to help each other in the process.
Very good article. I appreciate the honest attempt to rise above the fray. Particularly this: “together we gain increasing levels of awareness about how to navigate our way through a world that is changing faster than we can even imagine.” Yes, that’s what it takes: men and women who respect each other, attempting to understand with intelligence and love. There is pain and legitimate grievance on both sides, but in neither case should it own us.
Devil’s advocate here. Okay, let’s say all the problems in the world are all the fault of men. I will hereby stipulate that’s true. So, the way forward is clear and simple. Women need to take over the world. How should they plan on doing that, exactly? What would that look like, exactly? It would have to mean an end to elections, because that clearly makes no difference. All those women voting and holding office gave women absolutely no power over the outcome whatsoever. Those thousands, millions of women who fought for women’s rights, marched for legal equality, got thrown… Read more »
Sigh, so much of the world’s problems are because people can’t take responsibility for their actions and try to blame everything on other people. Thank god someone recognizes it. While I think feminists are more culpable because their ideas are more accepted, many MRAs are also equally guilty of blaming far too much on women.
I appreciate your writing Lisa, it does appear you try very hard to be equitable. Here’s my POV. Men did not create the presumption that all men are pedophiles. Men did not create the presumption all men are rapists or potential rapists. Men did not create the presumption that men are somehow looking to victimize women in any way. This was all done by women seeking supremacy over men.They have succeeded as the courts no longer give due process to men. Women of good conscience need to reverse these actions as they apparently have the power in this matters. Then… Read more »
I completely agree with you. Having been a victim of false allegations myself it is incredibly damaging in so many ways. But one of the things I have noticed is that it backfires and hurts women in many ways as well. I am a man by the way. The Problem of false allegations has created a system of occasionally scape goating a woman who might actually have an actual legitimate claim of abuse. Though I am confidant it is mostly men that the courts abuse some women are abused by the system as well. My experience with my divorce and… Read more »
Lisa, you need to read Allan G. Johnson’s “The Gender Knot: Unraveling Our Patriarchal Legacy.” Johnson explains how privilege works much better than the writers at The Good Men Project. He explains it in such a way that people do not feel guilty.
Men are missing the point here women die every day at the hands of men.
Prostitution and porn is without doubt another form of hate against women where women ar beaten and shot in the legs if they don’t comply .come on we need change in mens attitude to women
The article was not about that. So in fact you missed the point of the article. But just to let you know men are dying and being beaten and shot in the legs too. In fact your average man is far more likely to be a victim of violence than your average woman. What your mistake is is focusing on only part of the problem and thinking it is only men that do harm. In fact the focus of the problem of violence is that we should not focus on violence against women or men, but instead we should focus… Read more »
Female insecurity and inability to deal with men make them, throw guilt at men. Lisa it right men just turn their back to these women.
A lot of wisdom in this article. I’ve read it several times. That part about not getting the guidebook on practical intelligence really resonated with me, but I’m coming from the opposite side. In my own life I took that idea of practical intelligence too far. Since I was a little kid I got really good at figuring out the best thing to say to a particular person in any circumstance, the thing that person most wanted to hear, no matter what I really thought or felt, no matter if what I said was true or not. After a few… Read more »
Neither gender can have it both ways. You can’t say that men are totally responsible for the state of the world AND say that women have not gotten enough attention for their contribution to the world. You can’t say that women’s hard work is the basic foundation of society and then only blame men for the way society turns out. You can’t say that behind every great man is a great woman and then blame only great men for the evils of the world. By the same token, you can’t say men should get all the credit for running the… Read more »
That was nice to hear.
I fear that it is excactly those attempts to cause male guilt, that
made many men resent feminism. They hear feminist ideas, specificly sex- positve ones
and instantly feel attact, even when it really isnt the case. And that’s how they react, defensive.
I’ve been there.
And the sad part is feminists really didn’t create male guilt, its just that some of them won’t look a gift horse in the mouth when male guilt plays out in their favor.
big disagreement here.
Just look at people like Gail Dines, or Diana Boston.
Guilt and slutshaming is most of what those people are about.
Pretty interesting topic for an article. I think it got a touch muddled when you tried to juggle two separate ideas (breeding entitlement and the collective guilt of men). You never really linked them together in a satisfactory way. Are you saying that women should have more entitlement? That men have more entitlement and thus cause women to pile guilt on them? That people without entitlement use guilt as a back up? This last one you seemed to state a little more clearly at one point, but the fact that you never connected the two ideas made me feel like… Read more »
Blaming everything on men is one of the primary tools you women have. I cannot believe that you will ever give it up. It is much too useful to you; it enables you to manipulate and hurt us wioth ease. The opposite of love is not hate. The opposite of love is indifference. Mor and more men are becoming indifferent to women. You made it clear in the last 40 years: you need us like a fish needs a bicycle. Now we are coming to accept that, and that we need you like a bicycle needs a fish. More men… Read more »
That’s a point that came up in Quiet Riot Grrl’s article, too: Yes, men have all the power in our society–but those are OTHER MEN. A vanishingly tiny fraction, the notorious “1%.” They are not us. We’re down here in the cubicle-trenches with you women.
Here’s the thing.
The only thing 99% of men get from sharing an outie with the 1% in charge (well, maybe, personally I think TPTB are sexless reptillians) is guilt and shame. And excuses why their problems are irrelevant.
Bra-fucking-vo
As a man, I wanne make love to you and carry your children
no homo
Wow lisa, you write better for men than any of the men at this site. Do you realize how good it feels to actually have men’s experiences validated rather than diminished/ignored?
I suggest talking to the vast majority of men living on the streets and ask them if they feel responsible for the worlds problems.
As a man. I’m not sure that the “…problems of the world being the fault of men” is necessarily wrong. Like it or not, men have been the prime movers in much of human history, and even today it’s mostly men behind the big events and developments in the world. As the old saying goes, if you want to make a cake, you have to break some eggs. As women are becoming more involved in politics and industry, they are quickly learning that it’s practically impossible to accomplish anything without p*ssing somebody off, offending some group, or giving someone the… Read more »
“That’s the message I get loud and clear from the angry feminist camp, primarily because they are overwhelmingly concerned with “women’s” issues as opposed to issues that affect humanity in general.”
You must understand that they are convinced that they are one and the same. If feminist issues are addressed to their satisfaction, all will be well, from their standpoint. They frankly don’t care about anything or one else.
Yes men have issues, but I think what is being addressed in this article is the collective responsibility placed on all men when much of what people are often the most upset about are the actions of individual men. When I realized that I should stop appologizing for how I was born, white, heterosexual, male, I was able to more fully embrass the experiences of my brothers and sisters of different back grounds because it stopped being about me and started being about the people I was connecting with.
“Gender relations is no different than anything else. It’s not complicated. Just treat everyone – man, woman, or child, black, white, red, yellow, or brown, young or old, with respect, kindness, and dignity – and you won’t have a problem with any group of people. I guarantee it.”-Eric M.
“My observation is that most of the ills are caused by a person, group or groups attempting to gain more power over another or others.”- Terre S.
I agree with both of these statements.
That’s why I became a Buddhist in 2009.
Y’all take care.
Please pardon the typos: I was trying to type fast before the screen refresh emptied the comment box. It should be:
*That is why we get threads pinging back and forth about the validity of men-to-women RATIO of domestic violence perpetrators.*
And:
* The caveat is that we would have to talk about our vulnerabilities, the WHYS behind our overt and covert power grabs.*
I will learn to work in a word processor instead of these danged comment boxes. 🙂
Merci.
I am an ardent second-wave feminist and I know that the ills of the world are not all caused by men. My observation is that most of the ills are caused by a person, group or groups attempting to gain more power over another or others. This is usally accomplished by overt force: war, domination, violence, financial threats. When the power distribution is deemed unbearably unfair by the less powerful, covert means of changing the existing power structure are employed: such as resistance movements, black markets and manipulation. And back and forth it goes. Generalizations can be made that men… Read more »
I have alot of respect for this comment Ms Spencer. I believe we confuse our happiness and fulfillment with power over others. There certainly is an imperialism being exercised over consciousness. You have described a process of taking what is not offered that I believe represents the worst form of entitlement that is mutually exercised by both genders. It is now fully institutionalized, it seems that we have arrived at a point where expressing vulnerabilities may be considered equal to painting a target on your back. I think we have failed to consider that much of our oppression is ultimately… Read more »
There is a lot of anger in the world today, plenty to go around. Men direct it at women, and vice-versa, and the rhetoric gets so inflamed. For people who want to genuinely work on gender relations, be they men or women, it’s important to find a site that you feel treats the issues evenhandedly. Everyone has the right to stop reading on a site they don’t like or don’t respect. What bothers me is the way thoughtful articles–whether I agree with them or not–get so quickly firebombed and ruined for everyone who really wants to try to get at… Read more »
Lori, I have never had a problem with male/female relations. Never. Not once in my life have I found it to be difficult. Well, my wife and I fuss sometimes, but that doesn’t really count. But, I’m not special. I know loads of people who are just like me. They have good relationships with men and women, and never give much thought to “gender relations”; it’s not an issue to be resolved. First, I don’t belong to any organization or group that polarizes such relationships. IMO, that does more harm than good, in terms of gender relations. If I want… Read more »
Eric, I hope everyone reads this comment! “Just treat everyone – man, woman, or child, black, white, red, yellow, or brown, young or old, with respect, kindness, and dignity – and you won’t have a problem with any group of people.” Hear, hear!
I appreciate this article, Ms. Hickey. As a child I witnessed domestic violence, so I decided I was going to be a differnt kind of man. I was a pro-choice, clinic defender. Participated in anti-rape marches. I never wanted to see another woman go through what my mom did. Then l went to college. I took a semester and a half of Women’s Studies. Walked out (as you noted, Ms. Hickey) in the middle of the second semester. I told the class I rejected the label of ‘feminist’ for myself. Instead, I chose to call myself ‘egalaritarian.’ I walked out… Read more »
“I expect that respect to be returned, or it is merely a toxic relationship.
So, I’m an egalitarian. I don’t care for abusive folks of either sex.”
I’m with you there CajunMick. Many thanks.
Lisa, I was really glad I took the time to read this piece, until I got to your comment on feminism. Almost every post on this website is followed by Hugo slamming, feminist bashing and then some feminists jumping in and saying no no we don’t all hate men and there is no such thing as feminisM. Its getting old and no one seems to get this simple point – you can care about men’s issues and still be a feminist. Such people exist, and in decent numbers. By appearing eager/willing to distance yourself from feminism, you are indirectly perpetuating… Read more »
” indirectly perpetuating the idea that feminism cannot make room for the interests of men ”
Feminism perpetuates that idea. People like Hugo perpetuate that idea.
I saw a similar rationale today from a feminist, “women that make false allegations rape perpetuate the “myth” that women lie about rape”, or something to that effect.
It’s quite clear that there are feminists who DO genuinely care about men’s issues… just as there are Jews who care about vegetarianism, and librarians who care about Star Trek. But it’s not an quality inherent to the group–nor is there any convincing evidence that it was ever intended to be.
Aqseer: First, let me start with this – I am 100% in agreement with you on this statement: “you can care about men’s issues and still be a feminist. Such people exist, and in decent numbers.” Look, I’m the publisher of this site. I encourage feminists to write for us. At any given time, you can find any number of articles that are pro-women, pro-feminism. But this is a men’s site, and in this article I was talking about men’s collective guilt so we could get a dialogue going around it. While I do agree with many of the issues… Read more »
While I do agree with many of the issues of feminism, I don’t agree with SOME of the tactics. There’s a reason the term “Angry Feminists” has seeped into the language, much the same way “Disgruntled Postal Workers” has. Yes there is. People need to quit acting like the image of the angry feminist is a total work of fiction. Its certainly not as universal as some people try to portray it but its just as unfair and dismissive to pretend they don’t exist (and more importantly just as unfair and dismissive to go on about how “they aren’t all… Read more »
Aqseer,
RE: “you can care about men’s issues and still be a feminist. Such people exist, and in decent numbers.”
I wish that were the case. However, I have seen no evidence of the care you refer to expressed in feminist theories, positions, policies, programs, or issues supported.
What I have seen are feminist issues targeted at men. That is, ways feminists’ want men to change, and things feminists want men to, for their (feminists) benefit Which is far different than caring about actual men’s issues.
In my opinion, making men feel guilty is not a “women’s issue”, it’s an abusive habit. Making anyone feel guilty – intentionally – is abusive, regardless of who’s doing it to whom.
I agree, that’s what I was saying at the beginning of the thread. I think that female emotional, psychological and increasingly physical violence (sexual torture and mutilation as entertainment in main stream women’s media) against men and boys is well established in the culture.
Question: Which “women’s issues” are all about making men feel guilty. Please privide a bulleted list.
Thanks!
I have a better suggestion for sarcastic, passive aggressive, goal setting feminists that argue in bad faith.
Jezebele telling “mean girls” that it men are to blame for their bad behavior
http://jezebel.com/5853544/its-not-your-fault-that-youre-so-catty
No doubt Hugo agrees.
Given that I wrote the piece, yeah.
Classic.
That;s an insane position to take Hugo, cluster B personalities and other abusive and relationally violent people are responsible for their own actions. Women have agency and your purity myths bullshit is exactly that.
Person with a PD writes an article about how abusive behavior in people with PD’s is someone else fault.
Fancy that.
Seriously Hugo
you promote lies about gendered domestic abuse, you promote lies about sexual violence being overwhelmingly gendered, here you are telling abusive women that they are not responsible for it and your movement, which supposedly cares so much about abuse has NOTHING to say about the fact that women are the primary child abusers and the US has the worst child abuse problem the west.
Your ideology is sick, there are very serious problems there that will be its undoing.
Typical feminist nonsense : The primary (K-12) education system that under-educates boys is the fault of…men, or the boys themselves. NOT the women and feminists that DOMINATE that and control that system.
I have no sons but find the total antipathy toward boys not being properly and equally educated nauseating and it certainly will have negative consequences and repercussions on western society just as surely as the disproportionate abortion of girls in China will come back to haunt China.
I was curious why your ‘mean girls’ article wasnt posted on here, or have i missed it( the daily turnover of articles on GMP is high)
Discrimination is typically observed through outcome based measurements. Disparate impact can easily be observed. The trick is, and always has been, assessing causes. Discriminatory behavior rarely overtly observable. Simply put- you can measure the Y variable but getting at significant X variables takes real work. Right now our secondary education system shows a disparate outcome. Across all cohorts young men are not succeeding to the same degree as young women. By the way, your root cause hypotheses are particularly flimsy because there isn’t any way to measure “male entitlement” or “guy code.” A hypothesis that cannot be tested, confirmed or… Read more »
Lisa, Interesting post. I hope, that in the spirit of the honesty that you seemed to at least want to convey in your article, that you can withstand some more from this commenter. You see, I don’t believe you. Not at all. And no, that is not an attempt to make you feel guilty, nor do I think I could if I wanted to. But it is an attempt, if you are willing to hear such a thing, to challenge what level of honesty you are really one here. As you pointed out from your earlier relationship, you turned what… Read more »
Hey JM, I want to preface this by saying I am not doubting you. Can you post the break-down as it happened regarding this invite, then ambush of Voice for men contributors? I don’t have very much knowledge of Voice for Men or any knowledge of the history between this page and their page/magazine. I do however frequent sites like hisside.com, fathersandfamilies.org, angryharry.com, and mensactivism.com Even though this web-page has heavy leanings to radical feminism, it is the LEAST heavy handed in moderating that I’ve seen (for such a feminist page). I have noticed that a lot of the man-haters… Read more »
I could but I won’t bother. It’s already a matter of record in the site. I agree with you that the attitude toward comments is generally fair and inclusive, but the game is still rigged here.
Hickey’s failure so far to answer my post may point to that, but if it doesn’t, if it is just something she has not yet had a chance to do, then look below at the exchange with Hugo.
As long as they promote his sexism and hatred, they will never be a publication for men.
GMP has been changing for the better since that truly awful hit job on the MRM.
How so? I have not read a lot here since then. Thanks.
I am replying to @JustaMan’s comment here — not to anyone else who replied to him. First, thanks for your comment. You are right, you could not make me feel guilty if you wanted to. I also don’t intend to try to convince you of anything, nor try to make you believe that what I say is true. You should believe what you want to believe. I can only take actions and have people judge the results of those actions. I will also tell you that if you Google “Lisa Hickey” + “Lying Feminist Scum”, guess what comes up? Me,… Read more »
I applaud your efforts on this website, and I think that the re-education of the general populace about gender roles and stereotypical notions is a very, very admirable cause to champion. However, as a feminist, I find it highly offensive that such a pro-woman website has deemed it necessary to attempt to shame and blame women who have the courage to point their fingers at the individuals who have made their lives difficult. While I agree that no person should be made to feel shame or guilt about their race, sex, or sexual orientation, acknowledgement and decoding of male privilidge… Read more »
“However, as a feminist” Whenever a comment is prefaced by this phrase, I brace myself for a comment that the average woman (non-feminist) would find unreasonable and out of touch with reality. And right on queue: “As a woman, society tries to make me feel shame when my thoughts are discredited because of the simple fact that I am a woman.” Who thinks this way? Who is this “society?” The majority of human beings are female. Why would a majority female population choose to discredit their own thoughts? They don’t. How could your statement possibly be anywhere… Read more »
Lol. A woman majoring in “Women’s Studies” has at least an outside chance of landing a job at some government funded non-profit. A man who does this… welcome to Starbucks, may I take your order?
Hugo teaches women’s studies. I bet he got a course in it, too, before teaching it.
Eric M:
Yeah when a comment is prefaced with “As a feminist” it reminds me of when congress passes a new law and says “We have passed a new law to help the common person”.
In both instances I know a big ole bucket of bs is coming my way.
Wow I have to love the deep-seated hostility. I would like to address the following points of contention: A.) I DON’T HATE MEN! I do not see how any part of my comments could be construed as hate speech directed at men; if they were, I am fairly certain that it would have been removed from this site immediately. I have plenty of wonderful, trusting relationships with men, and trust me, I value these. B.) I am not a Women’s Studies Major. I am actually studying Sociology and History; so no, my choice of “female-vested intellectual pursuits” has nothing to… Read more »
Hi Mary, Thanks for both your replies. I had never felt “guilt” as a woman because guilt implies some sense of wrongdoing — and I never actually got the feeling I was doing something wrong by being a women. I have experienced fear, and humiliation, and general uncomfortableness as a women when I’ve been around men, but never guilt. I can, however see how you might see what transpired here as “female guilt”. I was also not implying that anyone’s voices should be silenced. I simply don’t believe that the polarization of issues, the framing of everything that is a… Read more »
“…has deemed it necessary to attempt to shame and blame women who have the courage to point their fingers at the individuals who have made their lives difficult.” – The key term you used, and then ignored, is INDIVIDUALS. Shame and blame the individual men all you want, Mary. Stop blaming the gender as a whole. Feminism has blinded you to your own obvious contradiction. “although I will be graduating from college in two short years…” – Well, that explains why you are neck-deep in feminist mythology. “my pay wage will still be the equivalent of a male high school… Read more »
Dearest Luckey; I am sorry if you have been punched in the balls. As a woman who has been punched in the chest before, I can somewhat empathize. I suggest that the next time it happens, that you file a report with your local law enforcement agency, because it does constitute as sexual harassment. No human being has the right to touch another human being without the person’s consent.. This goes for all the women who think it’s cute to knee guys in the balls, and to all the men who think it’s appropriate to grab my crotch and my… Read more »