Are mens’ rights websites dangerous hate groups? Chuck Rudd calls the Southern Poverty Law Center out for mission creep.
The Southern Poverty Law Center—a non-profit civil rights organization that made its bones going after the likes of the KKK and neo-Nazis—has turned its cannons on my virtual homeland: The Manosphere. The SPLC, created in 1971 by civil rights activist Morris Dees, publishes a quarterly “Intelligence Report” covering the latest movements and trends among so-called extremists and hate groups. This quarter’s issue features no less than three articles covering the Manosphere.
First, what is the SPLC’s stated purpose?
The Southern Poverty Law Center monitors hate groups and extremists throughout the United States and exposes their activities to law enforcement agencies, the media and the public. We’ve crippled some of the country’s most notorious hate groups by suing them for murders and other violent acts committed by their members.
To expose the rampant hatred and seething violence of the Manosphere, the group’s lengthiest piece mentions a handful of high-profile cases of men committing acts of violence against women.
The SPLC report begins with Thomas Ball who last year set fire to himself at the footsteps of the Cheshire Co., New Hampshire courthouse after a decade long child custody battle. They discuss George Sodini, the involuntarily celibate lunatic who sought revenge against women by shooting up a women’s fitness center. The SPLC report mentions Anders Breivik, the Norwegian right-wing, anti-Jihadist, anti-feminist who killed 77 of his fellow Norwegians. They mention Scott Evans Dekraai who recently killed his ex-wife and five others after a custody dispute. They also cover the crimes of Marc Lepine and Darren Mack and sprinkle crumbs of admittedly supportive comments from Manosphere bloggers and website commenters.
What the SPLC doesn’t do is connect the words written at sites like A Voice for Men and The Spearhead and others to violent action against women. It’s overt guilt-by-association rather than guilt itself. None of the violent men mentioned—or Thomas Ball who committed violence against himself—were associated with the Manosphere. No forums; no known comments; no known web affiliations. None were a visible presence on the sites targeted by SPLC, and there have been no reported cases of men linked to these sites committing criminal acts or engaging in violence.
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At the widely read blog Marginal Revolution, economist Tyler Cowen recently linked to a piece of research which finds that the increase of porn usage in various countries is not associated with an increase in sexual violence. In fact, the increase of porn—which feminists have at one time or another called misogynistic or hate-based—is correlated with a decline of sexual violence against women all across the world.
I’d argue that Manosphere sites have a similar effect. There’s no question that a lot of content in the Manosphere is unsavory and offensive. Some of that is for, as it is called in the internet, ‘lulz’. Some is an airing of grievances or just irrational frustration that might otherwise manifest itself violently. This is the “safety-valve argument” that has been put forth by scholars such as Columbia University president Lee Bollinger and famed jurist and legal scholar Richard Posner who favors someone writing rather than just passively staring at a screen.
This argument also has some empirical evidence to back it up. Researchers from the University of Kansas and the University of Wisconsin studied the blogging patterns of several dozen prominent political bloggers and found that the most commonly-cited reason for entering the political blogosphere was “to blow off steam”. Perhaps Sodini, Ball, or Mack would have benefited from a forum outside of their own head.
The SPLC’s report suggests that the group is either behind the times or hard up for opponents. They are brick and mortar; the internet is fluid. The groups like the KKK that the SPLC previously condemned were ones that pushed for violent action. But the websites of the Manosphere are loosely affiliated networks of men with similar frustrations – not similar desires to act in violent ways. The KKK, the Nation of Islam, and neo-Nazis have buildings and P.O. Boxes and franchisees and mailing lists and meetings and, hell, uniforms. And most importantly, they have a hierarchy and chains of command. All of this is infrastructure for concerted violent attacks which are the ultimate—and rightly confronted—fear.
♦◊♦
Roosh V, a popular seduction blogger and author, was mentioned in the list of “misogynist” bloggers. Libertarian outpost Reason magazine giggled at the SPLC’s reliance on a blog called “ManBoobz” and at the group’s turn from gutting organizations that openly state their violent intentions to badgering internet writers and ex-pat PUA bloggers. Reason spots the ridiculousness of the report:
Take note, America: Having consensual sex (Roosh is not a rapist, but a seducer*) with someone you don’t actually like and then never calling her/him again will land you in a reputation-ruining** SPLC report.
*and a pig
Roosh is a Larry Flynt type—part Gonzo, part self-styled cad. He has faced the ire of foreign governments and their citizens before, so this is nothing new. The question isn’t whether Roosh is offensive or unethical; the question is whether an influential think tank is right in singling out non-violent websites whose main focus is seduction or men’s rights. Instead of being targeted for his violent or hateful intentions, Roosh drew attention during the course of his grand European tour in which he hopped from country to country, carrying out a “scorched disco” strategy and writing books about his encounters. After traveling through Iceland and Denmark, some Estonian bloggers began to post about the coming beard-tornado that is Roosh. But the response of the Estonians or the Danes or the Icelanders was far different from that of the SPLC. People in those countries recognized Roosh as an undesirable—an asshole, they might say—but they didn’t label him a perpetrator of hate or extremism. To put Roosh V on the SPLC watch list would be to track Andrew Dice Clay or Tucker Max. And that Roosh is on that list calls into question the other anti-Manosphere arguments put forth by the SPLC.
Roosh offered speculation for his placement in the crosshairs of Dees and company:
The reason SPLC included me was because game overlaps with a lot of the men’s rights issue. Anything that empowers men is hereby declared misogynistic, and they will attack it. You don’t see them attacking commercial publications like Ask Men, Maxim, or The Art of Manliness because those teach guys how to be obedient worker bees who buy consumer products. The SPLC list had none of those sites.
Asked if he thinks his blog and his books will be harmful to women in a Sodini-like manner, Roosh responded:
Nothing I’ve written will harm women. If anything, it will give them sexual pleasure from the men who successfully seduce them with my teachings. The irony of [the SPLC’s argument that I am] hating American women is that I’m teaching thousands of guys how to have sex with them and therefore give them orgasms, which of course is one of the most pleasurable human experiences.
Picture Fred Phelps cheekily offering his “services” to homosexuals.
♦◊♦
The SPLC’s organizational intentions are virtuous on their face, but it seems that they’ve run out of ammunition to sustain their relevance. Thus, the umbrella terms “hate group” or “extremist organization” are cast over these de-centralized, non-organized websites and blogs. This is a far cry from tackling actual, demonstrable impairments of civil rights or personal freedoms. It’s called “mission creep”, and it’s kind of creepy.
Founder Dees has a bit of a sketchy past himself. He has been criticized for using his organization as a vehicle for his own personal gain. Part of the mission creep involves railing against caricatures of bigotry and extremism in order to gin up fear and the donations that closely follow. An article written in 2000 by Ken Silverstein for Harper’s quotes a former SPLC lawyer saying that the group sought to profit off of “black pain and white guilt.”
Dees’ divorce records show a man who was seemingly more extreme in deed than any of the bloggers mentioned in the SPLC report. Questions of the legitimacy of the divorce proceedings could not be verified by the SPLC’s public relations department (though I will update if they return my call). The documents detail Dees’ volatile marriage to his ex-wife, Maureene:
Although Maureene was subjected to a number of degrading sexual episodes by Morris during the marriage which will be discussed hereafter, neither Morris nor Maureene ever wanted or sought a divorce until Morris established his permanent relationship with Vicki Booker McGaha in August of 1977. It was Morris’ absolute refusal to give up his mistress, whom he was supporting and whom he had made pregnant, that directly caused termination of Maureene’s marriage and forced her to institute these divorce proceedings.
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And two years later, amidst Dees’ cheating, he gave permission to Maureene—to whom he was still married—to begin seeing other men. In one incident, Dees and a private investigator set up Maureene in a sting. Dees and the P.I. busted out of a bathroom and began snapping pictures of Maureene and her lover in bed together. From the docket:
Morris was acting crazy, and Maureene thought he was going to kill everybody in sight. He told her that he had five detectives with him (R.592). He hit her and gave her a busted jaw. (R. 592).
If the divorce document is true, it is interesting to note that the SPLC is ignoring the violent misogynist in their own midst while taking aim at rhetoric contained on a few websites.
—Photo: -Tripp-/Flickr
SPLC is just another feminist infested organization. Move on, nothing to see, if they like to discredit themeselve with such nonsense, let them do it. We’re going our way, no way to stop us.
Truth hurts.
Which truth? There are articles saying feminism is a hate-movement and can link to hate speech by feminists, is it any more true than this?
The few do not equal the many.
I’ll address the comment Kyle, by emailing Vachette and placing it on Mod, though I personally would like the see the question re-written. I’ve seen that quote before, and in other places, and I don’t understand the motivation for it.
The quote is obviously wrong headed out and in very bad taste, but I can’t control what other people write. I haven’t seen that quote, but i don’t doubt it was said. Those kind of people speak for me and most others as much as Radfems speak for the feminists here. Labels suck.
“None of the violent men mentioned—or Thomas Ball who committed violence against himself—were associated with the Manosphere.”
Not true. This past year, Paul Elam, founder of AVFM, posted a song written for his site which explicitly named Thomas Ball in its lyrics, saying that “his death will not go in vain”. Also, AVFM has a tab for Activism that you can click to be directed to Ball’s manifesto.
Just last week, the MRAs on Reddit were campaigning to get Ball his own Wikipedia article.
“Just last week, the MRAs on Reddit were campaigning to get Ball his own Wikipedia article.”
You realize that there are 31,500 subscribers, and anyone in the world can log in and write anything. Even in an email to Potok, he conceded this point.
I think they were complaining because their article on Ball kept getting deleted or something…I don’t know.
My main point was that Rudd is wrong to say that there’s no connection between the MRM and people like Thomas Ball when in fact the connection is plain as day.
Also, Rudd here has written some pretty foul things of his own on his “Gucci Little Pig” website, recently accusing Fluke of being a lesbian because one of her fingers was longer than the other. He’s part of the problem.
http://glpiggy.net/2012/03/06/sandra-flukes-2d4d-ratio-and-pirates/
Oh I see, you’re talking about people posting whatever they want on the Subreddit…gotcha.
The Reddit mention is not nearly as problematic to me as the AVFM one, since, far from some random guy, Paul Elam is a popular figure in the MRM and seems to be well-respected.
I don’t speak for Paul. What do you mean by well respected? We could back and forth with these claims and counter claims all day. So, how do we stop the hate and the violence? How do we get back to talking about the problems?
I didn’t see your post before I posted.
This website seems to be a good start. I don’t always agree with that’s written here, but I think overall GMP does a service by addressing issues like masculinity and violence againt boys. That’s all I have to say about that.
Anyway here’s the thing: I’m fully aware that there are some MRAs who are legitimately concerned with men’s issues–the Subreddit is surprisingly one of the few places I’ve found And I think I’ve seen your name in the comments at NSWATM, which is a website that does seem to be legitimately concerned with men’s issues, so I’ll assume you are one of those MRAs. if so, I’m glad. However, I have seen enough to understand that misogyny and violent rhetoric dominate most of MRA discourse, to the point where I cannot support it. I would like to see something good… Read more »
And you wonder why the cycle continues? You see only what you want to see. You defend one group who does the very thing you claim another group does. And I get this from both sides, denial and blame. You won’t stop either, because youve made up your mind the right and wrong. Gender wars!
There’s no gender war going on. That’s another invention of MRA paranoia, and a way for MRAs to justify their extremist atittudes.
Also, no, the feminist movement doesn’t do what the MRM does. You’re going to say I’m biased but I don’t care. When one of the most popular feminist sites starts talking about how male sufferage destroyed Western civilization, then you’ll have a point.
” That’s another invention of MRA paranoia,” You’re seriously going to try and pin the term “gender war” on the MRM and label it a result of paranoia? “Also, no, the feminist movement doesn’t do what the MRM does. You’re going to say I’m biased but I don’t care.” “I don’t care”… That shows an open mind and a willingness to be self critical…But seriously, just goes to show you as ideologically driven, rather than reason driven. ” When one of the most popular feminist sites starts talking about how male sufferage destroyed Western civilization, then you’ll have a point.”… Read more »
Male sufferage hasn’t happened yet, but several sites are describing how men standing up for their rights is a threatening action. You seem to be one of them.
” to the point where I cannot support it.” But this article isn’t about supporting it, it is about the SPLC calling it a hate group and trying to dismantle it. Nobody is asking you to like us, you’re clearly come from the feminist ideology that is being blamed for contributing to or perpetuating men’s current problems, largely by your own blaming of men for doing the same to women. But to silence us… That doesn’t follow with your next line: “I would like to see something good come rom the MRM but I’m not very hopeful.” It won’t if… Read more »
“The results will be very ugly”
What do you mean, ugly? This sounds like another veiled threat which MRAs are so fond of making. MRAs rarely say “I’lll hurt you if you oppose me”, but I’ve seen a lot of talk about how society will collapse and widespread violence will break out if MRA’s needs are not met. MRA leaders talk about “inflicting enough pain to shock society out of its coma”, and you wonder why that gets the SPLC’s attention?
London Riots are being attributed as a consequence of fatherlessness, which is one of the issues the MRM is fighting against and gotten resistance to from feminists like NOW and Women’s bar association. The civil rights movement resulted in a great many riots as well. Men have been dropping out of the marriage racket for decades, to the point I can’t go a weak without seeing a “where are all the good men” or some hateful peter pan syndrome article. None of these were organized, and so were not someone carrying out “veiled threats”. It is a reality that when… Read more »
Yep, when feminists have been spouting the same hate for years (but only rarely acting on it) and haven’t been called out I do have to ask why theres a sudden fervour now men are doing it.
I’m glad you’re generously willing to admit that “some” MRAs are concerned with men’s rights. In return I’ll generously accept that some feminists are genuinely interested in equality.
You have things backwards. Thomas Ball did not have associations with the men’s rights movement, that does not mean the men’s right’s movement does not see the issues that caused his actions and choose to use (part of) those actions to bring attention to those issues. IE, Thomas Ball did not do what he did for the MRM, nor because of the MRM, as he was not involved with the MRM.
Exactly
Also I think it needs to be noted that Mensactivism.org was also listed there. The entry for it accused them of using a lurid headline about a Pakistani woman that killed and cooked her husband for lusting for their daughter. What SPLC didn’t say was that mensactivism.org copied that headline verbatim from the source it cited, which is pretty standard practice at that site. And by the way the source of that “lurid” headline was The Examiner. I’m all for calling out the venom among MRAs but this peice wasn’t about calling out the venom among MRAs. This piece was… Read more »
“But since we are talking about MRAs its okay to paint up the vilest 2% as representation of the entire movement?”
It’s not just a small percent though. AVFM and The Spearhead are perhaps the two biggest and most popular MRA sites out there. Even on the MRA subreddit, which has about 20,000 members, one of their moderators is a frequent contributor to the “Beating Women” subreddit, and has said that a false rape accuser deserved to have her throat slashed.
If this guy doesn’t represent moderate MRA views, why is he a moderator?
That’s a fair question.
He is above me on the mod ladder, so it was before my time. He isn’t a “frequent contributor” and he hasn’t posted in over a year. I made sure to ask that he wasn’t doing that before I let the other mod invite me. But no excuses for his commenting on that sub – same as there is no excuse for a group of feminists on Reddit, who troll with the most vile and violent comments…because they think its funny. Three very well known feminists, who I will not mention, love this group. I’m not going to link to… Read more »
As do most of us. I really have never understood the dynamic. I mean I guess it makes sense, anonymity on the web…it allows anyone to say anything. But it’s so ugly.
Very much agreed, anonymity robs some of their humanity. Or perhaps they let it rob them.
Both, likely.
“Last week, three of their members taunted a suicidal man in a thread”
Where’s the proof that those commenters were contributing members of SRS and not just some random trolls? Even Paul Elam is saying that those people were “assumed feminists”
Should I say that people on Youtube making sexist jokes are assumed MRA’s then?
Yes, we have proof and the SRS mods already took care of them. There were other trolls involved. I really rather not go down this road, because I have hundreds of screenshots of them saying some of the most awful things. If you don’t believe me, well, ask an SRS mod, or pretend it doesn’t happen to us too.
It happens everywhere, Vachette. It’s not cool in either direction. It’s rude at best, bullying torment at worst. We should all be against it.
I obviously think that the people who bullied that MRA were terrible. I’m glad that the SRS banned them because that’s what they deserved. And I’m glad that the man didn’t go through with it.
Real quick what is “SRS”?
It stands for “Shit Reddit Says”
It’s a subreddit (like a small subforum on Reddit) that highlights the rampant racism, homophobia and sexism that is all over Reddit. It also frequently calls out r/mensrights for all the sexism and misogyny that goes on there (Recently, an MRA poster saying that women inherently have less of a sense of justice than men was given 7 upvotes and only one thumbs-down), so MRAs hate SRS.
but its actually produces more hate than another other reddit.
By “sexism” I assume you mean “sexism against women” Because from what I’ve seen the people from SRS don’t seem to have a problem with sexism against men
Do those places represent the entire MRM? But to answer your, “If this guy doesn’t represent moderate MRA views, why is he a moderator?” because even in places where there are moderate people there can still be mods that excuse the worst of behavior. Or does that mean that I can actually judge all of Feministe and the people that hold it in good graces as bad because one of its mods have allowed people to defend the idea that all men are rapists? I’m all for clearing out all the misogyny, misandry, racism, etc…. but I’m not playing this… Read more »
I’m not talking about a mod simply allowing someone to post that a false rape accuser should have her throat slashed, because obviously, allowing a post does not mean condone it.
I’m talking about a mod who HIMSELF said that a women should have her house burned down and her throat slashed.
So completely unlike a prominent feminist announcing that people who defend accused rapists (who turned out to be innocent) are “rape loving scum.”
https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/marcotte-and-empathy-a-letter-to-the-editor/
The only difference being that misogyny is relegated to some back corner of the internet whereas misandry is acceptable fare for mainstream newspapers.
Not that I’d defend the guy on reddit, its a horrible thing to say, but if MRAs and masculists are to be called out on their misogyny theres an even longer history of misandry within feminism to denounce.
“If this guy doesn’t represent moderate MRA views, why is he a moderator?”
I’ll leave Kyle to speak for reddit and return to you how , if the multiple editors of jezebel don’t represent feminist views, why are they all still editors and the vast majority of their comments positive.
http://jezebel.com/294383/have-you-ever-beat-up-a-boyfriend-cause-uh-we-have
What about the government sponsored SCUM society in Europe? Given how much the SCUM manifesto gets associated with feminism due to Solanas being held up as an icon of feminism after attempting to kill Andy Warhol, you’d think feminists would try to shut that down, but not a word.
What you fail to mention is Roosh V’s involvement with a website called “Fat Girl Jihad”. As much as he’d like to pretend that he is only helping lonely dudes get laid, he can’t hide from the fact that he has an incredible hatred of American women.
http://www.godhatesfags.com is on the hate list and they aren’t violent. It’s a hate list. You can be very damaging with hate without necessarily being violent. A Voice for Men or Spearhead – neither of these site’s articles nor their subscribers write or talk like they are out to do anything but continually bash women. The thin veil of a good cause to help men and boys is quickly ripped away to reveal a most misogynistic agenda. Oh, the problems they purport to care about are real; homeless men, imprisoned and raped men, male suicide, boys behind in school, raising our… Read more »
“neither of these site’s articles nor their subscribers write or talk like they are out to do anything but continually bash women” Women or feminists? You use misogyny as well, which, by definition is a hatred of women, which does not apply when it’s feminism that is the focus. Please make a distinction, because I know far too many people seem to think they are synonymous, and your argument would not stand if it relied on feminism rather than women. After all, isn’t hating ideologies what the SPLC is all about? Rather hypocritical of them to call others a hate… Read more »
Forgot the link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Violence_Against_Women_Act#Any_claim_to_helping_children_needs_to_be_removed_or_verified
The Spearhead published an article last year titled “How Female Sufferage Destroyed Western Civilization”. I would say that’s pretty misogynistic, wouldn’t you?
AVFM isn’t as blatant in its misogyny as The Spearhead, but Elam has made some disgusting comments insinuating that women who are raped are “begging for it”
I don’t attend the spearhead, So I can’t speak for that. As for AVfM, I think Paul lets his rage go unchecked, unfocused, rather than putting it to better use, but I am aware of the article you are referring to, as well as the out of context hatchet job manboobz did (which is clearly where you’ve gotten your information from). Paul was saying some women, under certain circumstances, are asking to be raped in the same context as a man walking down the back ally’s of a suburban slum at 3 AM wearing a $4,000 suit, a $15,000 Rolex,… Read more »
If you were to switch it – for instance if a scantily clad man was attacked sexually by a bunch of women – I doubt anyone would be talking about how HIS behavior led to his attack. People would be like “what’s with those crazy chicks!?” Of course it is important not to make stupid decisions that make you a target for rape, or theft, etc – but I’m really tired of the “she was begging for it” rationalization as it puts the victim on trial and all but excuses the perpetrator. Basically, “how could he help himself?” Is the… Read more »
“People would be like “what’s with those crazy chicks!?”” I suspect people would be far more likely to assert things like “you can’t rape the willing”, or “dude got lucky, a bunch of chicks at once”, “I wish I was that guy”, etc etc etc. Furthermore, I DID provide a reversed gender scenario (wasn’t rape, but still a crime committed against him… or is it you have no sympathy for a rich man being mugged, making seeing the analogy difficult? Could this be because he is a man, or because the crime committed against him wasn’t of the designated crime?… Read more »
“Is that feminist equality, only men need ever be questioned, that a woman’s word is golden truth, pure and without reproach?”
Oh good grief. Of course not. Real rapes happen to women. To women who know their rapist. Real rapes happen to men. To men who know their rapist. So we should cut the dramatics out here on both sides and start working to figure out ways to yes, advocate for being safe and protecting oneself, and also STOPPING THE PERPS who commit actual crimes. Cause they do. To men and women both.
You’re not replying to what I said, you’re replying to what you want to argue. There are feminists advocating for men to be presumed guilty until they can prove their innocence. THAT”S what I am referring to in my question, but instead of acknowledging that, you instead pretend I’m making some “rape doesn’t happen” assertion, and arguing against that. How does “real rapes happen” play any part in justifying “guilty until proven innocent” as being equitable… unless your going to assert women don’t lie and thus when someone says a rape happened, then a real rape happened and the man… Read more »
+1
You may have a point with the “he got lucky” likely response to a male rape – that is another double standard that drives me crazy. I don’t think women, by virtue of being women, are truthful and their word is gold. Nor do I subscribe to any “feminist equality” whatever that is. Let me be very clear – everyone: men and women, boys and girls, should definitely be educated on how to keep themselves as safe as possible. If I leave my 4 year old alone in the park, and he gets kidnapped – yes, there is some blame… Read more »
“Nor do I subscribe to any “feminist equality” whatever that is.” What “that is” is the tendency for feminists to insist “feminism is about equality”. This assertion feminism is about equality includes the feminism of these feminists (and they are feminists, even if you choose to relegate them to the radical faction, they do remain feminists) who are calling for the presumption of guilty until proven innocent. So if feminism is about equality, and feminist’s are calling for guilty until proven innocent… is that what equality looks like to feminists… or said otherwise, is that feminist equality? ” What I… Read more »
Correction:
“That said, I do understand what you mean, in that the woman’s behaviour should be used to excuse her victimization”
should read “shouldn’t be used”
You have some valid points. I think we’re both right in one way or another. However, I think you assume the police feel under pressure from rape crisis centers, and that is really not the case. In some cities, police chiefs take sexual assault very seriously, and they have great relationships with local rape crisis centers (like in my community). In other cities, the police treat rape survivors like crap right off the bat (as has been reported to the agency I volunteer at). Some cities, the police are excellent, but the DA won’t prosecute anything – therefore rape survivors’… Read more »
“I think you assume the police feel under pressure from rape crisis centers” The crisis centres themselves? No, but if you wish to deny police agencies and judges aren’t required to attend feminist driven, VAWA funded “educational” programs on sexual assault and domestic violence, well, there isn’t much point to continuing this discussion. And I don’t doubt different police agencies respond to these programs differently, with some even overcompensating in their opposition to it, but I’ll show you, how your own response, provides an example of why that is… Where in your entire comment do you even leave room for… Read more »
Sorry, but if you replaced men with women in that paragraph you could just as easily be describing any feminist site I’ve ever visited (with maybe one exception). The difference is that only MRA and masculist sites are being called out for misogyny and this being identified as the core concept of the movement. If you’re willing to accuse a voice for men are you willing to accuse jezebel?
Also I dispute that god hates fags aren’t violent. They mightn’t actually attack people but showing up at a funeral slandering the dead? I’ve never seen an MRA do that, or a WRA. The comparison is inaccurate in the extreme.
Really? You’re comparing AVFM to Jezebel?
Have you read articles on Jezebel calling for people to “inflict enough pain on the agents of hate in order to shock society out its current coma”? Or an editorial saying that men who are raped are “begging fo it”?
I have some problems with articles that Jezebel has published but nothing they’ve ever written has been so distrubingly hateful as anything on AVFM or any MRA website for that matter.
“Have you read articles on Jezebel calling for people to “inflict enough pain on the agents of hate in order to shock society out its current coma”?”
Nope, But I have seen an article from Jezebel calling for people to inflict pain on the targets of their hate for fun and laughs
http://jezebel.com/294383/have-you-ever-beat-up-a-boyfriend-cause-uh-we-have
Do you actually have a link to this article of AVFM, or is your link limited to manboobz’s account of it?
I’ve seen some stuff on how violent or harmful AVFM is, but the one I remember was quoting a small part of a larger article that changed the context. Cut down it looks like he’s calling for violence but the next paragraph proved it to be purposely done for effect to show the hypocrisy of another article. It also depends what kind of pain you mean, I find some authors to be quite over the top and let too much anger through. Their message can be pretty decent except it’s loaded with anger that turns people off to listening, I… Read more »
“It also depends what kind of pain you mean, I find some authors to be quite over the top and let too much anger through.” I very much agree with this, and ironically, when I said as much, when I said I think the anger needs to be focus and directed, instead of letting it rage free, lashing out at anyone who may question our arguments (even out of simple curiosity, wanting to test the strength of an argument before accepting it themselves), or challenge us to improve… I got told by Paul Elam himself to get the fuck off… Read more »
I so wanna get both sides together and give them a time-out. Shake hands n get over it all, work together, it’s bloody annoying!
Yep really, jezebel, maboobz the lot of them.
http://www.spokeo.com/search?q=Daryush+Valizadeh&s4=t15#USA
he’s lived many places…hasn’t he?
I wonder if the SPLC has a consistent policy when it comes to different ethnic and racial subgroups on the web. Surely there are websites out there visited predominantly by African American men, for example, that may not be very flattering towards women or that may be clearly anti-feminist. I’m willing to believe that white guys are worse than any other when it comes to this, but surely they are not alone. I don’t know for sure, but I’m guessing that it’s only when white men call for treating women as sex objects that it’s hate speech to the SPLC.… Read more »
P.S. Also, past a certain point, the longer the list of “hate groups,” the more meaningless the list becomes. At first it may be helpful to generate donations in the short term, but over the long term it undermines the group’s credibility. Anyone familiar with Joe McCarthy could tell you that – see the bad guys everywhere and you’ll look like an imbecile.
“I’m willing to believe that white guys are worse than any other when it comes to this”
Why on earth would you think that?
The Southern Poverty Law Center—a non-profit civil rights
Non-profit? The SPLC is ridiculously profitable. In 2010, their revenues were about $35 million, while their net assets were about $230 million: http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=4482
To keep filling their coffers, the creeps at the SPLC must brand an ever-widening proportion of public discussion as hate speech. There’s just not enough real hate in America for them.
The SPLC is not unique. I think some people have the idea that nonprofits are not really “businesses.” Except, many businesses are organized as nonprofits. It is a legitimate way of doing business. These organizations compete with each other for government and philanthropic dollars. Nonprofit directors can bring in millions of dollars through their compensation packages. People don’t think of these organizations as businesses because instead of, say, a large national retail chain competing with a small regional one, you have a large national animal rights organization competing with your local animal shelters. People would think that because they have… Read more »
@Chuck
Many organizations and people have bad mouthed men’s rights movement in past and continue to do so in the present. What is so special about this Southern Poverty Law Center that MRAs care about???
The SPLC takes it to another level. Before, the MRAs and feminists kind of duked it out in their little arenas, but that was purely academic. Not that the SPLC is an arm of law enforcement or anything – I’m not saying that – but now the focus reaches another echelon which puts these groups on the radar of guys with guns.
SPLC is a redundant organization trying to reinvent itself. It does not have either the credibility or the political clout to take anything to another level. Its leaders are only making fool out of themselves by writing such ridiculous reports.
Its a mainstream organization that targets hate groups. As in the KKK and Neo-Nazi’s. Ask yourself a question, are MRAs as marginalized as Nazis and do you want to be as marginalized as the KKK. Because if MRAs get treated like the KKK then the MRA movement is completely doomed.
In Canada hate speech is against the law. This implies that all men’s rights groups could be targetted. Same is true in Europe. This type of suppression has major consequences. Its not nothing.
By targeting MRAs as hate groups, SPLC loses any credibility it ever had. Do you think that just because SPLC thinks MRAs are hate group, police would start targeting them??? It is a sham non profit organization out to make some money from wherever it can.
“Do you think that just because SPLC thinks MRAs are hate group, police would start targeting them??? It is a sham non profit organization out to make some money from wherever it can.” Yes I very much DO. Sure its a non-profit organization out to make money but that doesn’t mean it does not have power. And SPLC only loses credibility if somebody speaks out which is what Chuck did. Let me explain to you how the world works. You vastly overestimate the intelligence and critical thinking people possess. Almost nobody thinks for themselves and I mean nobody. The writer… Read more »
What Chuck is doing here is really valuable, but I think ti would have been better to bring libel suit against SPLC, draining it of finances and sending into oblivion. I am not overestimating the intelligence and critical thinking that people possess, but you certainly underestimate mine. Reports made by the so-called watchdogs normally go to garbage bin without anybody taking a second look.
I hope the public question the credibility of the SPLC when they quote David Futrelle (“ManBoobz”) as an investigative source. We have yet to learn whether the SPLC will accept donations from the RadFem Hub, nevertheless the RadFem Hub’s actions are highly indicative of how they view the SPLC. If the information presented about Morris Dees’ divorce are correct, it is hypocritical, and perhaps psychological projection is the reason for them pointing the finger at the MRM.
Game is for helping out Gonorrhea, Chlamydia and Herpes.
Really? How so? What empirical evidence can you offer that supports your assertion? Please explain?
Moreover – if indeed Game “helps” various and sundried STDs, what say you of the socalled “sex-positive” feminists and the like? Do you hold the same view when it comes to them or not, and why? Again, please explain?
O.
Hey Chuck,
Nice piece, thanks for writing it. Just two quick points:
1. I fail to see how the NOI can be compared to the KKK; please explain?
2. Oneitis has nothing to do with a Man who is in an LTR; it’s about Men who pine after Women they have not had actual sexual relations with.
Other than that, again, good writeup!
O.
Obsidian,
I mention NOI along with KKK mainly because the SPLC considers both to be hate groups and tracks both of them on their website. Also, both are organized with leaders, a hierarchy, fundraising activities, etc. Besides their internecine squabbles, it’s safe to say that the KKK has been a bigger blight than NOI.
Chuck,
Point taken. Still, I take issue with the notion that the NOI and the KKK are on the same plane, for one very simple reason – one group has a long and documented history of terrorist activity against American citizens; the other does not. Therefore, I cannot see any equating of the two.
But, given the fact that you are merely following the SPLC’s “logic”, I can see where you’re coming from. But I trust you get where I’m coming from as well.
O.
While there is some truth in what they say when I got to what the SPLC had to say about MensActivism.org I laughed. The accuse them of using a lurid headline but then don’t mention that they did an exact copy/paste of the source that they got it from, The Examiner. I’m all for MRAs clearing out the negativity among their movement but the SPLC is clearly trying to get us to throw the baby out with the bathwater and just blanketly accuse all MRAs of acting like the worst of them. And if you get down to it this… Read more »
Does that mean we should start crying “we’re not a monolithic group”?
Yes. Start singing it loud and clear, or as I said above, get ready for them to paint you as one. You guys like to say “men rights guys are not the ones in charge!”–and then you seem surprised when you find out that what you say is true and the (pseudo) mainstream media/culture can distort your message in any way they please. What did you expect to happen? Time to fight back. Clean up the joint, purge Mary Daly, and get it together. Or resign yourselves to getting viciously stereotyped the way you often have stereotyped radical feminists. You… Read more »
“Or resign yourselves to getting viciously stereotyped the way you often have stereotyped radical feminists. You are now seeing what happened to us.” By us, are you including yourself among the radical feminists, or are you ignoring your own words and equating the vicious stereotyping of RADICAL feminists to be vicious stereotyping of all feminists? (and just for the sake of clarification, there are many MRA’s that will use the term “all feminists are …” but most just use the term “feminists are …” which leaves room for exceptions. So we may be swinging with wide brush strokes, but the… Read more »
Ah, another round of “gotcha”… maybe yall don’t realize that THIS is where you get the questionable reputation in the first place. By us, are you including yourself among the radical feminists Second Wave feminists, in particular. “Radical feminist” currently means nothing. If you mean Second Wave radical feminists, yes. Mary Daly and Janice Raymond, whom I mentioned, were also Second Wave. I believe they both categorized themselves specifically as lesbian feminist. or are you ignoring your own words and equating the vicious stereotyping of RADICAL feminists to be vicious stereotyping of all feminists? Okay, who exactly are we talking… Read more »
I for one would enjoy an education on feminist history…..especially all the splits. Why don’t you write an article. I have always believed that someone (I was thinking I should but I am just too lazy) should write an article about the motivations, history and nature of men who are MRAs. However, I would love to have someone write about the feminists from a similar perspective…views, motivations, splits, etc. Why don’t you write it. If you have advice for the Men movement there are many who would be eager to hear you. BTW, we are already seeing splits between MRAs… Read more »
Why don’t you write it. Sorry for all the personal Sturm und Drang in this, about how badly I wanted to be PC! But facts are facts, yo, Do not be offended. But this covers the “big radical feminist newspaper of the 2nd Wave:: http://daisysdeadair.blogspot.com/2009/10/demise-of-off-our-backs.html Meh, its a start. But plenty of warnings in that, for those who can see em. Especially about racism. I think Tucker Max, like Rush, can do far more damage than a now-marginalized movement, because they have the power to bring in the newly disaffected. One thing I’d advise: yall need to jump in there… Read more »
Daisy,
In light of your comments above, you might be interested in the following post by yours truly:
The Season Of The Sistahood’s Dis(sed)content
http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com/entry/60053
Would be interested in hearing your thoughts.
O.
I am a black man & i am really sick & tired of feminist trying to use civil rights organisations to smear the men’s rights movement as a racist misogynist movement which is far from the truth, the movement is comprised of men & women of all colors & creeds & they are people who are concerned with the many negative dismal stats when it comes men in general & poorer young men in particular. it seems the only people interested in the truth or sounding any kind of alarm when it comes to the dire state affairs of men… Read more »
Nice write up.
They put False Rape Society on the list. The entire Web site is devoted into looking at how false accusations harm men, waste police departments’ time and also hurt the families of those falsely accused.
This is a hate site? What does it say about the SPLC that they consider a site devoted to exposing injustice “hate?”
I didn’t include FRS only because I don’t read them very often. What’s funny there is that they are a watchdog which is also SPLC’s role. FRS points out incidents of false rape accusations. They serve a very important function – unless, of course, you don’t care about the men who are falsely accused of rape.
I hope this means some of the haters will be “cut loose” by the more respectable MRAs, like at this blog. Rather than defending Roosh, et. al. (and you do sound like you are defending them, by minimizing or acting like what they say is not really what they mean) — its time to understand the similarities between them and the “real” hate groups. I honestly don’t see any difference at all. And you mention (in passing) Andrew Dice Clay and Tucker Max? Is that supposed to be a VINDICATION?
Instead, your comparison just convinced me that SPLC is right.
You think Andrew Dice Clay and Tucker Max should be placed on the radar of law enforcement agencies and used to drum up fundraising dollars for the SPLC? That group will now profit by using the Manosphere cites as kindling. I’m not saying that Roosh is a saint. He is what he is. He’s a self-styled jerk who enjoys thumbing his nose at feminists and such. But he’s one among many who do the same thing but aren’t mentioned in the same breath as mass murderers. Howard Stern, Tom Leykis – I do consider Roosh to be on a similar… Read more »
They are equating anti-feminism and the men’s rights movement as the same thing. I’ve seen it done before.
@DAISY “I hope this means some of the haters will be “cut loose” by the more respectable MRAs, like at this blog.”
Funny, I’ve been telling feminists they need to do the exact same thing. Difference is, feminists do have articles (and even a commercial and theater performance in Europe) promoting violence (against men) and yet, somehow, it’s the men’s rights movement put on the list and being told to cut the hate. Hypocrites.
Ummm, we did. A long time ago. Like, in the 70s. Read the Mary Daly obituaries, the brawls that broke out online, even several decades after the fact. (It was all rehashed ad nauseum, in detail.)
The fact is the haters are loud and always get more attention. That’s how it works.
The only feminist I ever seen speaking out against the radicals within the feminists movement is Cristina Hoff Sommers, who many feminists call an anti-feminist, and try to have her ejected from the movement (IE, expunging her name as a feminist), an act I have never seen done for radical feminists.
Perhaps you shouldn’t have limited your outcries to “a long time ago” and kept it up this whole time. but radical feminist still holds sway over a great many feminist actions within the political landscape, even if they are more carefully worded with softer, more genial tones.
The only feminist I ever seen speaking out against the radicals within the feminists movement is Cristina Hoff Sommers Um, are you kidding? All the women driven out of feminism during all the 70s splits? I believe Sommers was ONE OF THESE, wasn’t she? That’s what she says, and like Camille Paglia, I have no reason to doubt her. Sommers, Paglia’s and Katie Roiphe’s politics changed AS A RESULT of these purges. I have been purged in various eras myself. In fact, you must have missed the recent purge, which was over (dare I speak his name) Hugo S. (Ginmar… Read more »
“I have been purged in various eras myself. In fact, you must have missed the recent purge, which was over (dare I speak his name) Hugo S. (Ginmar is gonna be SO mad that she did all those posts about me, and yall were not even paying attention!)” Didn’t know about this until you mentioned it. Thanks. But I just started reading it. I feel like I should get popcorn and just enjoy it. I mean I have to admit enormous pleasure at what Hugo Schwyzer has been able to do to feminists. I am especially enjoying the attacks on… Read more »
@Daisy: I have to ask one fucking question. BTW, I am surprised you support Hugo. But I need to bring up one tthing because its just too juicy to forget. In all the rantings against Hugo, you did remember his post about Kyle Payne didn’t you. I mean it should have come up because its so ironic
http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2008/07/10/self-awareness-good-navel-gazing-bad-some-thoughts-on-men-accountability-and-the-lesson-of-kyle-payne/
I do not “support Hugo”–as I have said 18,000 times. (approx, give or take) What I am angry about is how people in the feminist blogosphere are so respectful of autism and mental illness–schizophrenia, depression, bi-polar, etc… but not drug addiction, which I consider a form of mental illness (and is often a poor-person’s attempt at self medication of the conditions I mentioned). As an ex-drug addict, I resent that I am expected to be quiet about my experiences, lest I get fried in the way Hugo was fried. That simply isn’t fair and sends the message that drug addiction… Read more »
And for sheer popcorn value, you might like this thread too:
https://noseriouslywhatabouttehmenz.wordpress.com/2012/01/03/hugo-schwyzer/
Got kinda ugly in there, but that is the first place I laid out my case.
” All the women driven out of feminism during all the 70s splits? I believe Sommers was ONE OF THESE, wasn’t she?” Christina Hoff Sommers is very much egalitarian… So I think you’re actually proving the point of those who call feminism hateful, or supremacy movements… After all, when the ones getting drummed out are the ones fighting for both genders, what’s left? The rest of your two posts in response to me are largely attempts to try and dilute the accusations by claiming there are lots of different groups within feminism… but as you yourself admit, there is often… Read more »
When women like Solanas and Bobbit are heralded as hero’s and icons of feminism, while Sommers and Paglia’s get drummed out, why should it be accepted that feminism is about equality? Is Christianity only about Pope Benedict and Joel Osteen? Which one should we listen to? Who is “right”? Fact: nobody owns it, despite their claims. Nobody owns ideas, mythology, history or basic concepts. I can call myself a feminist and be egalitarian and tell all the factions TO FUCK OFF and in fact, I have recently done exactly that. 🙂 If the RCC drums out nice nuns trying to… Read more »
” I think feminism is about equality. If others have defined it differently and acted on that definition, it doesn’t change mine.” But, if the definition of feminism is subjective, and thereby your definition is yours and mine is mine and there is no constant in the definition, aside from making the word utterly useless, where do you get off telling me my definition is wrong? If I see feminism as a hate movement (I don’t… I see it as a female empowerment movement. The degree’s and views on men vary from faction to faction, though I suspect a large… Read more »
(sigh) Feminism is not subjective. I never said that it was. Here is the NON subjective definition: fem·i·nism noun \ˈfe-mə-ˌni-zəm\ Definition of FEMINISM 1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes 2 : organized activity on behalf of women’s rights and interests Not subjective, its right there in black and white. Obviously, a lot of room for interpretation. I have answered your questions carefully, and you have not returned the favor and answered mine, although they were not rhetorical. Your mind is made up, and I can see its a waste of time to… Read more »
And Daisy gets the last word apparently (seemingly rightfully so).
“Feminism is not subjective. I never said that it was.” Actually, you very much implied it when you said: “I think feminism is about equality. If others have defined it differently and acted on that definition, it doesn’t change mine.” You say what you “think” feminism is. You then acknowledge other’s definitions as being different from your own, and that it doesn’t change yours. This implies that the definition can be different from person to person and each of those definitions can be correct (or else, it implies your definition is absolute and you are closed to acknowledging anything else…… Read more »
I would compare Clay, Tucker Max, etc to Santorum and Limbaugh. For some reason, I guess because they are “funny”–they are not considered the same. I hope you know that radical feminist “Off Our Backs” was broken into by FBI and feminist newspapers (like innocent cultural-feminist, bread-baking “Womansong”!!) were subjected to law enforcement surveillance? This is what happens when you become a serious political faction. People start taking you seriously, and it may not be the way you’d prefer. 😉 Its time to delineate your movement, who is “beyond the pale” whom you consider an ally. If you don’t, expect… Read more »
Return of Organization Exempt From Income Tax
http://www.splcenter.org/sites/default/files/downloads/resource/SPLC_2010FORM990.pdf
I never heard of this strange US-based organization before, but it is remarkable how much money so-called directors of this charity are receiving for their work.
There are also contractors receiving compensation, but for what kind of job?
If this is the best the left can wield, then it’s pretty weak sauce.
I’m sure the smart ones on the radical left are as embarrassed by the SPLC as anyone else.
A commenter on AVoiceForMen said on this mess something I agree with: the different sites should ban together and file a class action suit against these bozos.
Seriously though, how can they not consider radicalhub.com a hate sight? Their official M.O. is promoting marginalization, dehumanization, and hatred of men. This double standard is nauseating.
SPLC has gained RadFem Hub’s support. Nothing more needs to be said.
Bomb threats against Erin Pizzey, SCUM manifesto and it’s more recent government funded schoolhouse theater group, support for violent women like Bobbit (so long as the victims are men), a plethora of 2nd wave feminists spouting hate speech and promoting violence, Radfem… Seems to me the SPLC has a far easier target available. But truth is, they have become weak and obsolete, and could actually stand against a socially accepted movement anymore.
Mr Dees. A lawyer methinks…..well that explains everything!
Bravo! It is sad to witness the fall of this venerable institution. The SPLC was once was a force for good. Now it has become a pure political lobby, and an ugly and corrupt one at that.
Anthony. You’ll note that the bosses at the SPLC have solved the poverty problem, at least as regards themselves.
Yep, after reading a bit about them–including their tax forms and the opinions of a few civil rights lawyers and judges–I’m inclined to believe they’re the Jim and Tammy Faye of social justice, right down to metaphorical gold-plated faucets in the laundry room.