Jordan Gray offers tips and strategies to help you avoid being a manipulator in your relationships.
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Let’s end this whole “nice guys” myth once and for all…
The term “nice guy” has been thrown around in popular culture a lot lately. A quote unquote “nice guy” is actually a first class manipulator.
(I was going to link to an Urban Dictionary definition of a nice guy here, but I found out that they have over TEN pages of definitions submitted by active/recovering nice guys and it was all a bit too depressing)
Women don’t have an aversion away from truly nice guys… they have an aversion to passive, manipulative liars (just like – surprise, surprise – all humans do!).
People respond positively to others that have a strong sense of identity, solid morals, and strong personal boundaries (all things that “nice guys” are lacking in).
The fact that terms like “nice guy” and “friend zone” are still being thrown around at all these days speaks to an underlying culture of female biased sexism, but that’s a topic for another article.
Nice Guys, Jerks, And Strong-Minded Men
One of the nice guys’ favourite fall back arguments is that “Women say that they want a nice guy, but what they actually want is a jerk”.
Oh, my friend, if only it was that simple. Kidding! It’s even simpler than that.
Women (aka people) don’t like being lied to. Plus they’re generally a LOT more socially intelligent than guys are so even if you think you’re being extra sneaky your intentions have been noted before you’ve even fully formed your first thought.
Nice guys = passive, manipulative liars who attempt to trade niceness for intimate relationships/sex. Most men are hopelessly transparent with their intentions with women, but nice guys really take it to the next level.
Jerks = assertive/aggressive suitors that share more character traits with a strong-minded option than nice guys.
Strong-Minded Man = an assertive, strong-willed person who is unapologetically forthcoming with his desire, and is ready and willing to take no for an answer without resorting to manipulation or douche-baggery.
So reading through the three descriptions, doesn’t it become clear that the nice guy option is a dead last?
If you are a man reading this article, imagine all of those descriptions again but picturing a woman. #1, a girl that you are not attracted to in the slightest who keeps trying to convince you to like her by being extra-super-duper nice. #2, a girl that isn’t necessarily your ideal woman, and is a little rough around the edges, but you feel magnetically sexually attracted to her for some reason (even though you probably wouldn’t bring her home to meet your parents). #3, a woman with clear morals and boundaries, has a voracious sexual appetite and has no problem initiating sex with you but will turn it down when she isn’t feeling it, and doesn’t push you to do things that you’re not comfortable with.
Unless you’ve got some intimacy issues, narcissism, or low self-esteem a-brewin’ within the chaos of your mind, you would most likely be attracted to #3, followed by #2, and then by #1 in a distant last place. And guess what? That’s what women respond to, too. Hooray, we’re all humans and there’s no distinguishable differences in our attraction process when it comes to not enjoying being lied to!
Bottom line, you are either attractive to someone or you are not. If you find yourself having a really tough time getting into a relationship, then it’s probably something you should get looked at. Whether it’s an unconscious pattern of driving people away, fearing vulnerability, or just not having your life sorted out, there are many steps you can take to become more attractive as a partner to your gender of choice.
On to the good stuff…
If your inner child (nice guy) still rears its ugly head on occasion (everyone’s does in certain situations) here are five things you can do to make sure that you’re not being a manipulator in your intimate relationships.
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1. Sexual Manipulation
According to society, if a woman wants to have sex with someone she can be labelled as a slut. If she doesn’t want to have sex with someone she can be labelled as a prude or a bitch (often by “nice guys”). In either situation, cultural conditioning is attempting to control a woman’s sexuality.
Blaming her for not wanting to sleep with you (at any stage of the relationship) is manipulative. If she doesn’t like you and you aren’t a couple, have some self-respect and move on.
2. Holding Back From Expressing Your Desires
Doing nice things for her and then getting frustrated when you don’t get what you felt entitled to (affection, intimacy, sex, etc.) is calculated and deceiving. Don’t.
If you want something, have the courage to ask for it. Otherwise, you might not be mature enough to deserve it yet.
3. Being Unable To Hear No
One side of mature boundary-setting is being able to express your desires and have opinions about things. The other side is being able to hear no from others. Being whiny when she says no to you (for affection, intimacy, sex, etc.) is a child-like behavior.
If you hear no, it means no. Just like jealousy has the opposite effect in a relationship than the partner intends it to have, the same process occurs with trying to convince someone away from their preferences.
4. Pre-Loading
Have you ever done things for her to use as ammunition later on?
In other words, you knew you wanted sex on a certain night and so you did a ton of nice things for her all week to (in your mind) guarantee sex on the night that you wanted it to happen.
While there’s nothing wrong with doing romantic things for your partner, if your intention is a manipulative one, they will pick up on it. I don’t say this hyperbolically… your intentions will clearly show themselves in your actions. The expectant energy in your eye contact… the overly eager angle of your stance as you stand next to her… I could go on. Trust me, she’ll feel it. So don’t do it.
5. Being Avoidant Of Confrontation
Manipulative people avoid telling others when they disagree with them. They do this to keep things as kosher as possible on a surface level. They go to great lengths to avoid rocking the boat.
If there’s nothing that they’ve ever seemingly done wrong, they can never be ‘called’ on anything. They always need to be in the right.
If you disagree with your partner, let them know. Women are not attracted to a man who lets his own values or personal needs slide in order to take care of her. Occasionally, sure. But as a way of being? Yuck. How can she trust you if you don’t even respect yourself and your own needs?
♦◊♦
The Process Of Becoming Comfortable With Mature Masculinity
Nice guys, generally, are not the best judges of other people’s needs (because they don’t fully understand or acknowledge their own).
Do you see any of the above five trends showing up in your relationships? Do they all make absolute sense to you? Let’s talk about them in the comments below.
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This post riginally appeared on JordanGrayConsulting.com and is republished here with permission from the author.
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If you enjoyed this post, you might also love reading:
7 Ways To Increase Your Value In The Dating Market
7 Things All Women Need In A Relationship
10 Questions To Ask To Go Deep In Your Relationship
How To Develop Your Masculine Edge: 9 Steps To Becoming A Beast
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A Person with having clear intentions and planings even he shares his all this kinda thoughts, would it be considered in nice guy too?
They say that nice guys finish last, and guess what? They do. If you’re going to move forward with a woman, you need to learn some tips to stop being Mr. nice guy. Without knowing these things, you are going to get left in the friend zone forever. If you’re interested in a woman and you want to get with her, you will need to shake off the stench of being just “nice”. If you do that, you will get with her and stay with her. This is something that takes a bit of time, and it’s going to give… Read more »
Jordan Gray
Your articles are gray lately. Take a break from writing until some clear truths surface that you want to share, because at best this article was scratching for something real to say. Fyi.. genuine niceness does exist, if you have only experienced manipulation then you have my sympathies. Your article comes off as a little bitter on a personal level. Good journalism tries to maintain objectivity, as writers have a responsible to truth; even if bad journalism generates more comments, thus securing your job with your editors.
A truly confident, mature man doesn’t care about labels. If a woman is not interested he can walk away with no regrets or second thoughts. He doesn’t need to put on a show or conform to someone else’s expectations. He will not give up his passions for someone else and will not ask anyone to give up theirs.
I find a LOT of truth in your article — especially point #5. However, I don’t believe this is such a black and white issue. I have known MANY women in 56 years, and am VERY MUCH convinced, that due to childhood experiences and other environmental dynamics, there are MANY women who simply lack the emotional capacity to be attracted to men who will treat them with respect and healthy love, and are VERY naturally drawn to men who will disrespect them. I feel sorry for them. I don’t believe it’s their fault, but it seems to be locked into… Read more »
As someone who is a “nice guy” it is difficult to read your thoughts. I see some of myself in what you say but I also see a justification for being a jerk. I don’t feel like these things are so black and white and I don’t think you can pile everything negative on the “nice guys”. That being said I do see myself being manipulative at times for affection or sex. i don’t like that woman often times are given the power to decide such things. Maybe I need to be more assertive and that would change. But do… Read more »
THANK YOU! Can we also debunk the “friend zone” myth? Yes, sometimes you just happen to fall in love with your friend and there’s heartbreak all around. I acknowledge this happens and it’s horrible. BUT I would argue that all too often these “friend zoned” guys are really just men who offered friendship to a woman thinking it would lead to a relationship. When the woman doesn’t respond in a romantic way he claims he was “friend zoned.” What really happened was this man offered a platonic friendship to the woman, which she accepted, and then when he tried to… Read more »
How many here can, roughly, give a transcript of how you would start a interaction? I think most of us can do this. Are we all manipulators now? What i see here is a drove of people that pat themselves on the back because they have more successful ways of dealing with others. And not in the slightly narcissistic “I am awesome” kind of way. No, more like the quite ugly and dark “Look what a loser this freak is compared to me”. Let us all untangle ourselves from the lotus position and throw away the incense. None of us… Read more »
I think what she’s referring to is when men lie about their intentions. IE they claim to want to be friends, are only nice in exchange for sex. Nice guys aren’t nice and expecting something in return, they’re just good people. The “nice guy” nowadays is portrayed as the “friend zoned” guy. Most of the time these were just guys trying to exchange friendship for romantic attachment (lying about their intentions in the process) and then when the girl says she just wants it to be platonic (what he offered in the first place) he’s “friend zoned” and she’s a… Read more »
I agree with Nistan and feel that the discussion should be closer along the lines of what Gwizz and Ordinary-People write. It is not so black and white. Being manipulative, especially a “manipulative liar” brings in an aspect of consciousness, a “falseness” of the “niceness”, where that is not always the case. It seems more correct to speak about maladaptations, about taboos, about incomplete education, about the lack of a sense of community, about incomplete socialization, about maturity and emotional intelligence and trying to meet the expectations that we are conditioned to think as positive (if we are not going… Read more »
I see these same issues my practice constantly. Guys who believe they are being nice and their partners that are frustrated with them. Often “nice guys” don’t get the middle ground of being kind and respectful while also articulating their own needs and desires. So many “nice guys” think that the only options are “Where do you want to go for dinner?” or “We are going here and I don’t care what you think.” In reality there is a middle ground – “I’d like to go here for dinner? Where would you like to go?” followed by respectful discussion and… Read more »
I remember a conversation I had with a female friend in her 40s. She told me that after she gets to know someone she “sees” them differently. Nice guys actually look more physically attractive. Jerks become less physically attractive. I remember an advice columnist once asking his female readers to describe the perfect penis and was surprised at the responses he got. One woman told him that the perfect penis is one that is attached to a man who loves and respects her. Alyssa Royce had mentioned in one of her posts that something similar happened to her. When she… Read more »
I feel you’re digging in the right spot John – much of this labeling is performed in hindsight. A fellow who tries to start a relationship with me using gestures and actions that are then viewed as “nice guy” when not successful is the same person using those same gestures and actions when relationship success takes hold (with the understanding that excesses tip the scale into a different conversation and analysis). He was being nice to me to only get in my pants easily turns to he was being nice to me and got in my pants. The upfront work… Read more »
I’m glad you outlined the conditioning that creates the troubling “nice guy.” Thank you for shedding light on this type of person who no one really likes to be around. Your mention of the “slut” made me think of another troubling trend where men only marry and date the “good girl”. She is equally as manipulative as your nice guy. I embrace my slut status with impunity mostly because the men I talk to are divorcing their good girls in droves and coming to me for advice. If they didn’t fall for the equivalent of the female version of the… Read more »
I was raised Catholic. Since there was a shortage of priests, I remember the boys in my Catholic school had a discussion with the priest. I remember when he asked us if we were considering the priesthood many boys said no and we couldn’t be priests anyway because we did X, Y, and Z. He told us they didn’t want priests who never sinned because how would they be able to help a parishioner through a moral crisis if they never had to make that journey. Maybe “nice girls” needed to sow their oats so they had a better idea… Read more »
“I think the real issue here is that there is a significant portion of the male population that is insecure, vulnerable, and doesn’t know what to do about it. Do we condemn them or help them towards more effective strategies through understanding?” I think you hit the nail on the head here O-P. In this paragraph and the ones above. It’s one thing to give anecdotes about experiences we’ve had with these so called “nice guys”, and slate them for being so manipulative through their insecurities. But what’s more important is figuring out why people are the way they are,… Read more »
I have soooo many problems with this very narrow description of a ‘nice guy.’ I think a more accurate one would be men who struggle to be assertive with women they find attractive, and think that being friendly is an effective strategy. Some of them will use this friendliness in manipulative ways, but not all of them will. There are plenty of guys out there who so fear the rejection of women they struggle with asking women out, because more often than not they hear NO. No women should be forced to be with a guy she isn’t into, but… Read more »
I have to agree with the author. In fact in my dating I have taken to avoiding guys who label themselves as a “nice guy”. No, I don’t want to date a jerk, and I find that mentality completely insulting. But these so called “nice guys” seem to lack confidence, real respect, ignorance towards compatibility and so much more. Take for example one “nice guy” I used to date many years ago, we’ve known each other since we were kids then around age 18 we went on a few dates. He’s a super nice guy in that he showed up… Read more »
@Amanda… You are spot on with your comments. This guy as narcissistic and self centered. He assume, incorrectly, that taking care of you will automatically make you happy. This means he is ignoring you as an individual with goals and aspirations. A good man or truly ‘nice guy’ takes a woman as she is. He supports her in her endeavors and actually cares about her and her life. He is like a bad stock: avoid. Too many men for some weird reason feel we think that all women want the same thing(s) out of life. Women are individuals, all with… Read more »
I did not write this, but I thought it was very astute on this topic: I’ve noticed that when complaining about “nice guys” the desires of the “nice guy” is always reduced to sex, whereas I think that most of these “nice guys stuck in the friend zone” are after everything that a relationship offers- the love, the sex, the affirmation, the humor, the pleasure of mutual support and care. A final example is this whole “men are told that society owes them a hot girl” meme that goes around. What men are actually told by society is that they… Read more »
I have to disagree very strongly when you say that the message to women in romantic stories is that they have intrinsic worth. That the prince has to prove himself worthy is reasonable – he has a chance to show that he is more than muscle and a pretty face, that he does in fact have moral fibre and depth – to some degree at any rate. The girl never even gets a chance to show that she has any worth beyond her looks, and the implication is that that is all that matters. All SHE has to do is… Read more »
Hi Tess
It is right to love small children for being, and not doing.
But when a man
say adult women are loved for being only he demonstrates that he knows nothing about women, what women’s life are like.
How can any man that have been close to a girl or woman emotionally say and think like that?
@Iben..
*How can any man that have been close to a girl or woman emotionally say and think like that”?
It’s impossible! He is simply imposing (or trying to impose) his view(s) of a relationship and women on all women. Simply will not work in the long run or even the short term.
Hi Iben, The belief that society believes that women have intrinsic worth and men don’t stems from several things. When we here about people being killed, we’ll sometimes see 100 people were killed including women and children implying that it is somehow worse that women (and children) were killed. When government assistance is handed out, it is often targeted towards women and children and at times excludes men. Breast cancer charities get 10s if not 100s of times more contributions than prostate cancer charities. Men are killed (in the U.S.) at 4 times the rate of women, but I’ve yet… Read more »
1. More women/girls have died in school shootings. 2. Government assistance is handed out to those who need it ie. the poor with children. The overwhelming amount of poor with children are women. Women make less money than men overall. There is no bias against men, if men were the primary caregivers without work they would get the aid. 3. Breast cancer is actually deadlier than prostate cancer. The breasts are located near the heart, lungs and lymph nodes. Most prostate cancer is not a death sentence like breast cancer tends to be and generally happens late enough in life… Read more »
I think you’re focusing too much on the sex side of it. As pointed out, the desires of the ‘nice guy’ encompass attention, affection, favour of all sorts – which not necessarily includes sex, but definitely does not exclude it either. A big deal is made out of the sex/physical ‘rewards’ the nice guy expects because it touches on bigger issues like sexual violation and such… I see where you (and Tess too) are coming from, but I still maintain the end goal of the ‘nice guy’ isn’t very important – it verges dangerously on a “gee, he wants more… Read more »
@ pyrrhic
Would you expect a woman’s boyfriend to do everything a “nice guy” would do? Is that manipulation? It seems that people who decry “nice guys” are saying that the only reason a woman should be romantically attracted to a man is for sex. That doesn’t sound very flattering to women.
I think there’s a larger problem at work here, and the whole “nice guy” trope is just one of many things caught up in it. The problem is the apparent assumption that someone who is primarily interested in sex is by definition a bad person. A “nice guy” supposedly is interested in more than just sex, but that’s a warped way to look at sex. That flows from the assumption that if a man has casual sex with a woman then he’s an abuser and she’s been exploited or lied to. Calling it “carnality” seems a little extreme. A man… Read more »
TIL shy men are all assholes. Why, thank you for clarifying that any man who doesn’t walk up to a woman and say he wants to sleep with her is a deceptive prick. The world is so much better a place, now. Thank you, Jordan.
Yeah, that’s the main thing I disagreed with. They need at least 2 more categories of men.
4. Shy guys who aren’t getting laid but don’t blame all women for it and do the “nice guy” routine.
5. Shy guys who get laid and aren’t “nice guys.”
I think what is manipulative is this post. The author is deliberately conflating an innocent term with something else, in order to get clicks and comments. He says, “let’s discuss this in the comments below,” but he has not replied to a single comment. Another online relationship schill trying to make a buck by causing a stir using a cheap and misleading title and article.
Dawn, the author is simply responding to how culture is using the term “Nice Guy,” and has for many years.
Try doing a google search for “Nice Guy Syndrome,” and you will see just how pervasive this is ( https://www.google.com/search?q=Nice+guy+syndrome ). I wrote about it 6 years ago, and I wasn’t the first. In fact, in 2003, “No More Mr. Nice Guy,” by Robert Glover was published.
“Nice guy” is misunderstood in this article. The man described is more accurately defined as an immature, disingenuous jerk. True nice guys are the ones who do things for her without any expectation of getting something in return, as the author eventually alludes to. But real nice guys exist, let’s not kid ourselves, and they always finish last. Women don’t want someone who’s attentive to their needs and treats them with respect. They want someone standoffish, ignorant, closed off, and selfish. And that’s the truly immature part of this equation. IMHO.
Anthony, I’m sorry that that’s been your experience. I agree with you that genuinely nice guys do exist, but they don’t always finish last. My husband is a 5’7″ self-described “beta male” and a truly nice guy. He teaches high school chorus for a living . He and I were best friends for two years in college while I was dating an Army paratrooper. Eventually I figured out that I had a lot more fun and was genuinely more attracted to the guy who made me laugh and cared what I thought than the asshole who bossed me around and… Read more »
Nicely said Jennifer J.!!!!
Hi Anthony
You say:
✺”Women don’t want someone who’s
attentive to their needs and treats them with respect. They want someone standoffish, ignorant,
closed off, and selfish. ✺
If all the women in your social circle are like what you describe here, you should find new friends.
Tell me who you friends are and I will know a lot about you..
@ Anthony
“But real nice guys exist, let’s not kid ourselves, and they always finish last. Women don’t want someone who’s attentive to their needs and treats them with respect”
Kind of like that old saying among men why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free. Don’t give the milk for free.
Truly nice guys do not always finish last, and if they do, it is only because they are too focused on putting everyone else in front of them. Often a truly nice guy is too preoccupied with being a nice guy to truly be attentive to a woman’s needs or to show her true respect, which means respecting her decisions to date who she wants to. And, more often, nice guys will forget to be attentive to themselves and show themselves respect, and that will almost always turn a woman off. A truly nice guy may get frustrated watching his… Read more »
Anyone who truly believes that women enjoy being treated like dirt by the “Jerk” have no idea what women want. Regardless if a nice guy believes they are manipulative, if they are doing nice things, not getting any attention, and then getting upset about it, that’s the exact definition that the author here used to describe a “nice guy.” If you are a truly happy, honest and open nice person, you won’t have any trouble finding someone.
Anthony that is total bullshit. I’m a nice guy. I am sensitive, tender and receptive. I listen to a woman, learn about her world and inner feelings, be attentive to her needs and aware of space and closeness. And even with this softness I am masculine. I ask for what I want without being attached to getting it, can take the lead when the situation calls for it, can dominate (in a healthy way) her and ravish her. I have received feedback about this, surprised and pleased responses from women that a man can be soft and tender and deeply… Read more »
Hi OirishM All women that read self help books about relationships between men and women know this well. Different authors use different concepts . One described it as ” women that loves too much”. It sounds like the same phenomena . They loose in relationships with men,loose again and again and again. Women do it also,and it is not intentional. They are probably brought up to be like that and it takes hard work to change. But it is dishonest. When you are authentic and honest about who you are, the it is impossible to be kind,loving and nice all… Read more »
More good commentary about this topic on the Men Can Stop Rape tumblr blog.
http://mcsrape.tumblr.com/post/62258408313/wheel-around-the-world-sigridhr-i-get-so-fucking
What is wrong with being chilvarous and nice? Studeies show that you can be an alpha man and still be nice.
The problem with chivalry is that it’s predicated on ritual dishonesty. Instead of actually engaging with someone honestly (e.g., you like this, i like that, let’s do something in between tonight), the explicitly chivalrous will submit themselves to things they don’t at all enjoy for some perceived reward. Essentially it’s like looking at relationships like a balance sheet. For example: Good: You hate the opera. Your crush loves the opera. You tell them you aren’t crazy about the opera, but heck, you’ll try everything once. You go dutch on the cheap seats. You hate it. You tell them you hate… Read more »
I don’t think we need to pit criticism of blatant jerks against criticism of the kind of “nice guy” the author is talking about. Actually, that seems like a “nice guy” manipulation technique: “we’re not as bad as THOSE guys, so back off” is essentially saying “we meet some minimum standards for decency and are therefore entitled to be above criticism”. Conscious intent is also beside the point: it’s manipulative in effect. Lots of people act this way (men and women alike) simply because they don’t realize what they’re doing and have never really thought about it before, and there… Read more »
My exact sentiments!
I agree with the idea that passivity can be manipulative, which isn’t nice. But sometimes nice means saying no, which men should do more. Some women want to change a man, but really this is control. A good man can refuse to change and instead insist that he will be himself whether she likes it or not. This is NOT the stance of a jerk as long as he also accepts her as is, no changes. I think the Blackberry Smoke song “Like I Am” sums it up nicely.
I agree with you in the sense that we ought to accept one another, but I don’t think it’s out of order to encourage positive change in one another as well – especially our intimate partners. I think that echoes what the author said, and you said, about saying no. Our relationships start with sparks, and continue (or end) with negotiations.
I’ll never understand why the men who’ve come off on the wrong foot and never got the hang of this dating business, but never actually done any harm to anyone, are so much more readily dismissed and hated upon on the internet then the guys who are out there and actually playing with and abusing women?
Expressing frustration for being misunderstood, lonely and left out is one thing. It doesn’t necessarily mean that you’ve wanted to shag every single female you’ve been in somewhat closer contact with over the past 5 years…
Great comment FlyingKal. Also, very good insight.
First, I would conjecture that feminists and feminist-minded types might encounter a disproportionate share of those male persons who “never got the hang of this dating business” and therefore might have a disproportionate amount of frustration and contempt towards those types. And as result, they fill their internet missives with complaints and denunciations against those conjugal failures. We have all heard of the “Nice Guy” who tries to use feminism or other progressive causes as some kind of shallow pretext to gain access to female company. Secondly, if some of those “guys who are out there and actually playing with… Read more »
1 way to not get trolleyed in the comments of your article on Nice Guys:
1. Don’t immediately assume hatred and manipulation are the INTENT of the men you’re accusing of this behaviour.
The nice guy spectrum is far broader than it is typically described as by feminists. It isn’t gender specific, for one, and I’d love to see Nice Girls get half the vitriol dished out to Nice Guys.