How listening changes everything: Mark Greene seeks a non-gender binary discussion of gas lighting.
Yashar Ali’s explosively popular article “Why Women Aren’t Crazy” is out there racking up Facebook shares in the tens of thousands. This tells me its resonating with a lot of women AND men. But, Ali’s article, although valid on some very real levels, tells a limited narrative in a limiting way.
Ali’s central thesis is that men consistently seek to undermine and devalue women’s emotional responses. The process is called “gaslighting”, in reference to a 1940’s film where a husband tries to drive his wife crazy by purposely refusing to acknowledge her perception of events in the world. Ali warns us we have a “gaslighting epidemic in our country”, the result of “the slow and steady drumbeat of women being undermined and dismissed, on a daily basis” by men. He goes on to say “gaslighting is one of many reasons why we are dealing with this public construction of women as ‘crazy'”.
I’d like to talk about a number of issues I have with Ali’s emotionally compelling but ultimately incomplete narrative.
#1 Women are not the only ones being “gaslighted”
Women are not the only ones who’s emotional responses are being invalidated or suppressed in our culture. For many men, the message we receive from our co-workers, friends, lovers and families is quite clear. Our acceptable range of emotional responses should be restricted to a very narrow set of traditional male responses (Typically macho-confidence or anger). We are not encouraged to express uncertainty, fear, sadness, discontent or panic. We are not encouraged to express things that may decrease the sense of security in our families or partnerships. The script we are handed is very clear: “Things are going to be fine. I’m going to make sure everything is okay.” Rinse and repeat. What’s ironic here is that expressing our more fragile emotions in a safe and receptive space is a powerful way to grow security and stability. Rest assured, men know what it feels like to be told to suppress our emotions of grief, melancholy or fear. And, sadly, when we do as we are told and hide these “unacceptable emotions,” they often reemerge as explosive anger, drug or alcohol abuse, or stress-related illnesses.
#2 Ali’s gaslighted women are powerless victims
Ali’s article drives a narrative that women are victims of damaging external influences over which they have little or no power. When you invite people to view themselves as victims of this kind, you leave out a very important participant in the narrative. Any of us, men or women, who view ourselves as victims must also take responsibility for the role we play in these processes, both in terms of how the events occur and in how we choose to interpret the events after the fact. Ali encourages women to view themselves as victims without asking of his readers the requisite self-examination that will empower breaking out of the victim cycle. In order for gaslighting to work, you have to allow it continue. Given the changes society has undergone, some substantial percentage of women (say 50%) don’t have to sit and take the kind of silencing Ali describes any more. So I would ask that gaslighting not be treated as a universal phenomenon, but instead as something we are, to some substantive degree, in transition away from.
#3 Ali’s article leverages dramatic language that blames and pathologizes
The language in Ali’s article, “emotional manipulation” “epidemic” “pre-meditated” “neurosis” is designed to encourage an adversarial and sometimes pathological diagnosis of a wide range of human interactions. If you say to someone, “you’re gaslighting me” the dialogue is taken down a path defined by pathological and abuse markers. Markers which should not be assigned or taken on lightly. Once we assign those kind of markers to ourselves or others close to us, we put in place abuse and victimhood frames which overshadow possibilities for flexibility, growth and mutual discovery. If you are being abused, by all means, bring in the calvary. But we must all be wary of the urge to drop the rhetorical A-bomb on our partner when a few months in therapy might put the two of you back on a track toward more honest and open emotional communication.
#4 Ali’s article encourages his readers to employ simplistic binary assumptions
For instance, Ali writes: “A remark intended to shut you down like, “Calm down, you’re overreacting,” after you just addressed someone else’s bad behavior, is emotional manipulation—pure and simple.”
Ali encourages the recipient of this “gaslighting” statement to view it as intended to shut her down. In doing so, he encourages his female readers to assume a specific intent behind this kind of statement. Is it his intention that we should believe the recipient of this statement NEVER overreacts? That would be unusual. Most of us have overreacted at least once in our lives.
An example of this might be, “my boss hates me” or “I suck at relationships.” These kind of responses burst out in moments when our capacity is tapped out and we’re feeling like we’re failures. These kinds of statements and the emotions that accompany them are probably not the only way we can frame these situations. These are victim statements born out of frustration. And most of us have overreacted like this at one time or another.
When I overreact periodically, my wife often helps me out by suggesting that my reason for feeling reactive may be fear-based or seated in some perceptions that I might want to reconsider. Usually, the response I give after I cool down is much more balanced and productive. My point is this. We can’t remove the sentence “You’re overreacting” from our dialogues. We can’t stigmatize the use of that kind of suggestion. And we can’t assume its a negative. It can be a heartfelt attempt to be helpful. We can always add the word “maybe” in front of it, but ultimately, being willing to reflect on and reconsider our emotional responses is one of the most powerful gifts we can give our partners and ourselves.
#5 Ali provides examples that misidentify strengths as weaknesses
Ali uses the example of how women place a smiley face next to a serious question as evidence that women are “reducing the impact of having to express their true feelings.” How is it that expressing an issue or concern should not be done in a gentle way? If a woman or a man includes a smiley face next to a texted comment or concern, it indicates that they are not speaking from an entrenched reactive position but are instead receptive to dialogue.
Not only is this conducive to discussing the issue in a constructive way, it is the kind of skill set that can grow a more viable personal, business or social relationship. And it’s a skill set we should all be applying more often. It can be considered to be coming from a constructionist approach to communication. Ali’s use of this example as evidence of oppression is potentially chauvinistic in its way, because he privileges a style of communication that is blunt and unapologetic, a typically “male” style of communication.
#6 Ali’s article encourages counterproductive binary arguments
The men in his article are two dimensional bullies that show no capacity for compassion or empathy. It makes for heightened drama and a great third act, but Ali is not writing entertainment. He is attempting to address real and painful social ills. And he is doing so in a way that is ultimately not helpful to men and women alike. We know that men are not two dimensional villains from the silver screen. Men are highly emotional creatures with vast capacities to love and be loved. Men can be spiritual healers and primary parents. They can be loving partners and caring teachers. And in all these roles, they encourage men and women alike to explore and share their emotions, to communicate their challenges and air their grievances.
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Thank you, Yashar. I know your heart is in the right place
I want to say clearly that yes, there are far too many female victims of silencing and abuse in the world. One person dealing with abuse is too many. But it is crucial to our ongoing dialogues to understand that the victims of abuse are men and women alike. It’s a fact that women have the potential to be just as emotionally and physically abusive as men. For some insight, look at the CDC’s statistics on physical abuse in relationships by gender. The report states: “More than 1 in 3 women (35.6%) and more than 1 in 4 men (28.5%) in the United States have experienced rape, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner in their lifetime.”(1)
Yashar Ali has tapped into a major issue in our culture. He’s right that many women feel suppressed and devalued by people they work and live with. All of this is true. Ali has managed to create some powerful emotional resonance with his article. But it is important that we talk about what is happening between men and women in a holistic way. It is also important that we stay current in how we frame societal ills, so that we don’t devalue the progress that men and woman have created in partnership up to this point. So that we don’t drop back twenty years and pick up a more combative dialogue and bring it forward to now.
What can be immensely helpful instead, is to view these issues through the lens of what is called Appreciative Inquiry. Simply stated, we look for what is working and grow that, versus only pointing out the negative and attempting to eliminate it. Real progress has been made in terms of how men and women address emotions in their relationships. If we fail to acknowledge that, our actions do little to engage and grow successful trending change. Furthermore, appreciative inquiry teaches us to look for common ground and to be curious about ways we can support each other as we go forward in conversations like this one.
I fully understand there is work to be done. Holding someone else’s emotions can be frightening and destabilizing. Especially if we have no models for doing it in our lives or our families of origin. But we can learn how. We and our partners have to help each other learn how.
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In my personal relationship, my wife and I are working to develop these kinds of emotion-holding skills. And top among them for me is the capacity to hear others’ emotions and not immediately try and “fix it” or in some way solve the problem. Instead, I’m learning to just listen and hear. For me, as a man, this is huge. The gift of the act of listening, decoupled from immediately REACTING can create a holding space for the emotions of others. Often, men like me will immediately focus on the source of the problem in an effort to eliminate the resulting uncomfortable emotions. There are times when focusing on fixing things is easier than experiencing our partner’s or our children’s pain or sadness. But the fact is, we human beings need to share our emotions. Fixing the problem can come later. When men (and women) learn to develop skills like this, it can go a long way to eliminating gaslighting. Because it creates the kind of emotional literacy that allows all of us to express ourselves more fully.
“Stop feeling that way” becomes “its okay that you feel that way”. And the oxygen of life and love reenters the room.
(1)National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey | 2010 Summary Report. page 2
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The Ugly and Violent Death of Gender Conformity
When “Check Your Male Privilege” Becomes a Bludgeon
Why Are Death Rates Rising for Middle Aged White Americans?
When Men Keep Demanding Sex From Their Partners Over and Over
How the Man Box Can Kill Our Sons Now or Decades from Now
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Why Do We Murder the Beautiful Friendships of Boys?
How America’s Culture of Shame is a Killer for Boys
The Culture of Shame: Men, Love, and Emotional Self-Amputation
The Man Box: Why Men Police and Punish Others
The Man Box: The Link Between Emotional Suppression and Male Violence
The Lack of Gentle Platonic Touch in Men’s Lives is a Killer
Touch Isolation: How Homophobia Has Robbed All Men of Touch
Boys and Self-Loathing: The Conversations That Never Took Place
The Dark Side of Women’s Requests of Progressive Men
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Hi Francis,
It is always interesting to me when people gender emotional abuse. There is no form of emotional abuse that can not be equally experienced by men, gaslighting included. Furthermore, your leap to the use of rape as the scare word of choice for comments sections is an overbearing use of a word that deserves far more serious consideration. Ask any male (or female) victim of rape.
The writer of this article is obviously blissfully ignorant about what Gaslighting really is. That he would suggest a bit of appreciative enquiry and some basic active listening etc is similar to saying, why don’t you use your negotiation skills next time someone wants to rape you. He doesn’t seem to understand just how unbelievably mind-fucking, crazy-making and abusive Gaslighting is. It takes a rare and skilled and experienced person to stand up to a Gaslighter. Most people are just innocent putty… totally unable to withstand the masterful onslaught of emotional abuse and manipulation. Please Mark, don’t write about things… Read more »
Hi Francis,
It is always interesting to me when people gender emotional abuse. There is no form of emotional abuse that can not be equally experienced by men, gaslighting included. Furthermore, your leap to the use of rape as the scare word of choice for comments sections is an overbearing use of a word that deserves far more serious consideration. Ask any male (or female) victim of rape.
Your article brings up some good counterpoints, I appreciate that. Yashar’s article is intended to bring awareness to the issue of grooming for abuse. Women are often the victims of being told (under the umbrella of “crazy”) what they want, feel, are doing etc. and met with this dismissive attitude when pointing out undesirable behavior or exerting a boundary. They are told to lighen up, or grow a thicker skin in response to being disrespected and standing up for themselves. No, they are not all victims, but this abuse is covert and can cause cognitive dissonance and Yashar does a… Read more »
There is too much victim blaming in this article. There is too much of an assumption that women should have ESP. Narcissistic abuse is real, and the narcissist is very very savvy and experienced sometimes, even fooling some of the most seasoned veterans. I recently got HAD big time by a very sharp young man who was mentoring and rooming in my home. Now I am in PTSD state realizing I had a sociopath in my house.
You present the reasons as arguments but they do not disprove anything other than the fact that you didn’t understand the original piece. Judging by the title and the line “…compelling but ultimately incomplete narrative” I believe your intention was only to expand on the issue. The feedback would have been better if you wrote the rest of this piece as an addition to Ali’s article (which, again, I believe was your intention) instead of an argument against it. As an addition, it is good (aside from the disgusting victim blaming). Ali’s piece is still very relevant since the act… Read more »
I’d like to read an article about ways to handle gaslighting from the victim’s standpoint that include thoughtful self examination and conflict resolution. Are there recommended methods of dealing with this problem, beyond recognizing when it is happening to you? I’d like to read of accounts in which people have turned the tables in a way that improved the relationship and helped everyone grow and heal. I’d like to read examples of all different varieties with varying degrees of success and failure.
#1
Not all men.
I disagree about the powerless victims. I grew up with a Father who told me “no one would ever want me”, those were his exact words. Sometimes followed with details. Even at the age I am now, I still don’t see how a child could do anything to change that situation. A child is a powerless victim. Not only do you need your parents but you can’t fight them, take power from them and any time I did try to speak up for myself I was quickly shot down. I do agree that men can be in the same situation.… Read more »
The powerless child argument is a very solid one!
thaks for remembering this 🙂
This article presents faulty logic. Yes, men can be victims too. Absolutely. But, most violence in our culture statistically, against men and women, is perpetuated by men. The author makes this point: ” But it is crucial to our ongoing dialogues to understand that the victims of abuse are men and women alike. It’s a fact that women have the potential to be just as emotionally and physically abusive as men. For some insight, look at the CDC’s statistics on physical abuse in relationships by gender. The report states: “More than 1 in 3 women (35.6%) and more than 1… Read more »
How is my use of this fairly straightforward data misleading? The CDC statistics state that one in four men have been victims of “rape, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner in their lifetime.” You say, “the author is interpreting the statistics about violence against men in a way as if this violence is mainly perpetuated by women.” The fact is, the majority of the intimate relationships noted in these statistics are between men and women. It is perfectly reasonable to assert that women tend to be physically abusive towards men they know while men are abusive to people… Read more »
While I appreciated reading your thoughtful response, I’d question your use of CDC statistics. You include the percentage of male and female victims of intimate partner violence as evidence that women can be just as abusive as men. The statistic doesn’t speak to that at all. It states that men can be nearly as often the victim. The perpetrators sex is unlisted. I’d argue a good number of abused men are abused within the confines of same-sex relationships.
so in other words Kathryn, just to clarify you are suggesting that women dont abuse men?
Women certainly do abuse men. Emotional abuse is all too common. Men are “gaslighted” too. “I can’t believe you lost your job AGAIN”, “You’re acting just like your father!”, “You need to control your temper”, “You’ve gained a lot of weight”, “Why are you so lazy?” and the list goes on. I somehow doubt that women rape men as often as men rape women. Not because women are the kinder sex, but because it’s rather difficult to rape an unwilling male unless you are also male and equipped to “force” yourself on him. I believe Kathryn was just pointing out… Read more »
there are several way how a woman may abuse sexually a man. Way more efficent than hiding in a bush or a street corner. Allow me a memory, when I was living in Italy, my gf uncle and his wife were always fighting. They really hated each other. Although no psisical abuse were involved you could really feel the bad vibes coming from the two of them. My gf told me that what happen was her aunt, while having sex with him, at the right moment she forced her upon him, so he will come inside her impregnating her, forcing… Read more »
I realize this is a very old comment thread, but I think Kathryn was saying it is not *only* women who can abuse men. Women certainly can, and certainly do – abuse men, but they can and do also abuse each other, and men can and do abuse other men, in every form that abuse can take. 90% of the gaslighting and silencing I grew up with came from my mother. Most of the bullying and gaslighting my brother received came from his (mostly male) classmates. Since then, I’ve been to therapy. My brother has not, so now I get… Read more »
Gender for rapists were listed. And it goes to show that it’s pretty safe to assume a large portion of the victims of each were abused by the other gender for physical violence too since the majority of people are straight.
Lifetime around 16% of rapists were female, last 12 months it’s 40%
Well said!
You know, even though the original article calls out men for their behavior, I can’t help but feel that it serves less to do that and more to inform women about how it’s possible they are emotionally mute, when they (surprise) aren’t able to express that. I sent this article to a few women friends and we discussed it. For some of us, myself included, it was a tuning fork going off, illuminating before unnamed or unrecognized issues in relationships, some dating back to childhood. Others couldn’t relate. I think the women who aren’t susceptible to this particular type of… Read more »
The most eloquent comment so far. I know you don’t need my validation but I’m giving it anyway. Well said.
I think I know you ; ) and I think you are brilliant!
Well said, Andee! Both articles struck a cord for me for different reasons and gave me a lot to think about. That’s uncommon for internet topics, so I appreciate the insightful and well-thought approach from both authors.
Some of us women gaslighting started in childhood, my dad is a sociopath. Gaslighting is a learned behavior and is not acceptable. Mental illness is 5 percent genetics and 95 percent behavior issues. Behavior modification is the best thing a person can do for themselves. Best way to deal with bad behavior is to call it for it is and not accept any excuses.
that was exactly how i felt! not a victim, but acknowledgement from outside of my little inside world, that what i’m feeling is right and i should keep saying it, and stop suppressing.
Before reading the original article, I would often think something was wrong with me. But now I can see that I have been “gaslighted”, and it has happened often. The article created an awareness in me, and now, whether the person is doing it consciously or not (and he was very clear in the article that it is not always intentional), I am able to own my feelings without thinking it means I am crazy. I feel that your article gives permission for anyone guilty of gaslighting, to disregard the original article and continue to either do it intentionally, or… Read more »
What I was going to post has already been said better than I would have by Andee, Jessica, and a couple of others. I find it interesting that so many humans seem to confuse “incomplete” with “incorrect”, and then so often take it upon themselves to “prove” why another person’s ideas and observations are “incorrect”. Where does this extremely common habit of confusion originate, and why is it so common, I wonder? Maybe I’ll do a survey… 🙂 (What does that smiley face mean? I can tell you, but you’d have to actually ask me; I’ll give you a hint… Read more »
Andee – I just found this article and my reply would have been very similar to yours. I get comments, on occasion, from others just as co-workers, family or friends that I am over-reacting, etc, I think nothing of it and I probably am over reacting. However, when my ex-husband made those comments he had an agenda. And that was to make me feel weak and powerless. I was emotionally manipulated by him. Context and the person delivery the comments make a world of difference on how they can make you feel and react. The article that was the subject… Read more »
I wrote this on the Facebook post, but I see that most of the responses are directed through here. I sense a lot of tension in this article, and maybe a bit of resentment towards the feminist movement? I used to be very anti-feminism because I misunderstood the move behind it. The way I used to feel about it would have come out something very much like this article. Now, however, I am more informed. I can respect Mark’s desire to combat the original “Why Women Aren’t Crazy” article; however, I kindly disagree with most points made here. #1. I… Read more »
Dear Brazil Nut, Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. I’m not going to respond to all you have said here, but I do need to say this. You’re comment: “I can guarantee that you (Mark) have never experienced this type of gaslighting.” You simply can not say that. You simply do not know for sure. And this is where gender really comes in in these dialogues. The assumption that ONLY women experience certain things is not supportable. Perhaps they experience it to a higher percentage, but as men become more progressive and gender neutral in their behavior,… Read more »
There are some valid points in this article, but from the first one I was questioning their relevance as a response to Ali’s article. This is because conditioning someone to only think and feel in certain ways is not at all the same as portraying someone as crazy for how they think and feel. It is true that men are brought up to only express a limited range of emotions. But so are women. The difference is that this “gaslighting” that Ali references occurs even when women express emotions that fall within the range that has been assigned to them.… Read more »
“This may occur on a smaller scale for individual men, but it is not a widespread phenomenon as it is for women. ” Just because you aren’t willing to examine the issue outside of a woman focused lens, does not make what you believe true, or the problem not to be widespread. Men are most certainly told how to feel, and then when they do feel that way, are labeled, not as crazy, but as dangerous. Not only to themselves and strangers, but even to the people they love, even their own children. The domestic violence and sexual grievance industries… Read more »
You do realize that the article is a form of gaslighting?
Your comment is a form of gaslighting.
Your argument completely fell apart at #2, and never recovered. I am appalled that you would claim women have a responsibility to not let themselves be victims of ‘gaslighting’ when the whole point in the article you’re arguing against is that women are not being listened to when they do stand up for themselves. I think you should slow down and read the original article more carefully and with your defenses at ease before trying to refute the argument.
Mark Green. Well done. I wrote my own response to the original article to someone on FB. You were more comprehensive than I. Again I say well done. I think that most of your critics are superimposing wrongs onto your contribution that were not there. I understand why one would do that who has found mostly arguments in this world that are hostile to women or to victims. Here is what I wrote. Not to refute anything said by the author of that article I would add the following; Gaslighting is a tactic of the one up person in an… Read more »
This whole article is gaslighting.
Whole article is Gaslighting? Yes I got that feeling too. Oh wait I’m a woman, I must be over reacting and unwilling to admit it. :-0 Thanks to the author for helping me to understand that when my feelings are dismissed, minimized or ignored, that I should be a “good girl” and admit I am over react. Heaven forbid we consider that women expressing opinion, being in leadership positions etc. might ever get an UNneccesary negative reaction. I found myself reminded of a conference when a female speaker was attempting to get the attention of the audience. Apparently she wasn’t… Read more »
Big problem is a lot of women DO over-react but do so in a manner that isn’t good. Being abusive, yelling, screaming, hitting, slapping are all times when it’s warranted to say someone is over-reacting (unless they’re defending themselves). Some will use it to shut women up but others will use it regardless of gender. I’ve told women AND men before when they’ve over-reacted because having your ear screamed off isn’t good. There are ways to express anger without having to be so aggressive, and yes I’ve been told I’ve overreacted too before and they were right. It’s not women… Read more »
Yes both men and women can over react. I’m not arguing that.
But what I do notice is that the label of being overly emotional, over reacting etc. is applied more to women. And it is sometimes done in a way that is meant to minimize or dismiss their opinion and sometimes their right to have an opinion..
Hi Kathy, I want to suggest that you’re painting with a very broad brush here. Now, in that moment, am I gaslighting you? No. I’m responding to you as an equal in a conversation between equals. If you, by virtue of your gender can dismiss any dialogue between us as gaslighting, then I suppose you’ll have to determine what kind of conversations you’ll be having with any man you meet. Some men gaslight. Some women do too. And when I say your comments are too broad brush, I mean your comment about women in leadership positions. Why my article inspired… Read more »
Mark, I will reply when I am at my computer again. My phone does not seem to be compatiblle with this site. Kathy
Mark, For the first 3/4s of your article, your criticisms of the original article come across to me as simply more elaborate versions of the same objections that seem to be made almost whenever some discussion of feminism is made. The last 1/4 is not enough to convince me otherwise. If you want to make a positive contribution, you really need to re-examine your views and/or recraft what you are saying. 1) “Men are gaslighted too”. So what? Is your point that if men are treated badly too, we are at some equality of being treated badly and so nothing… Read more »
1) If both sexes are being treated equally bad, then there is a level of equality there. That doesn’t mean the issues don’t need to be fixed (although, it also doesn’t mean there is an issue that needs fixing ether), but it DOES mean the blame and the solutions can’t be one sided. The fact Ali’s article DID present the issues as one sided does demonstrate a view that it’s only a problem when it happens to women. The outcome of 40 years of one-sided domestic abuse awareness demonstrates that quite well. If you believe it affects both men and… Read more »
One small note on “women should stick up for themselves and act as adults more” – I don’t know if you read the nytimes article on women being heard in the workplace – but allow me to suggest that women are commonly seen as bitchy when we do this, and it doesn’t help us. I think one major issue with the “women are crazy” trope is that yes, many people are crazy. But society and culture throws that at women. Men can and often are gaslighted as well – which you mention in your article – but we haven’t conditioned… Read more »
Love this. You nailed it. I found this article very condescending and convoluted. Someone is addressing an issue in a very straightforward way, and someone else needs to fill in the gaps with academic prowess. I’ve experienced this backlash when I published an article discussing ‘enlightened’ men and their methods of pursuing women. Not discounting queers and the plights of men, not claiming to be a feminist – just a direct commentary on an issue I had personal experience with and had witnessed happening to the women in my life. Needless to say there was considerable ostentatious jargon flaring up… Read more »
If you are seriously using CDC as a valid source of insightful data, consider this – 76% of female rapes go unreported. The CDC does not tend to include data pertaining to reported rapes of women where rape kits were not processed, the backlog of rape kits unprocessed in many municipalites go back THREE years. Rape kits are rarely if ever collected on men, most rape reports reported by men are not required to be upheld to the same standards of rape reports in women, its laregely heresay. CDC underreports rapes of women whereby no rape kit had been processed.… Read more »
Isis, do WHO and IWE do any data collection on men forced to penetrate? I collect links to studies to try get an understanding of how much abuse goes on by type, gender, age, etc. CDC’s NISVS 2010 is the only one I’ve seen so far address males forced to penetrate.
Isis, Yes, many instances in which women are raped go unreported. I agree 100%. But your comments say nothing to suggest that the rape of men also goes underreported. It is a startling omission. Men do not report violent abuse by their partners nor do they report being victims of rape for a myriad of reasons. Not the least of which is being laughed at by the men and women police officers who are to investigate such claims. If you are demanding that others rely on unbiased assumptions then please do so yourself. Otherwise, you’re not in dialogue, you’re just… Read more »
“If you are seriously using CDC as a valid source of insightful data, consider this – 76% of female rapes go unreported.” There is so much wrong with that one sentence, it’s mind boggling. For starters, how can you get such an accurate account of how many rapes go unreported if they are UNREPORTED? Next, what percentage of male rape goes unreported? Are you honestly going to suggest that men are more likely to report being raped than women? How can you pretend this claim says anything about the validity of the CDC’s statistics when what you say here doesn’t… Read more »
@isis
“Rape kits are rarely if ever collected on men, most rape reports reported by men are not required to be upheld to the same standards of rape reports in women, its laregely heresay.”
Are you accusing the male rape survivors of lying?
The truth is that both genders do this. And it depends on the individual. Women, who generally are more skilled psychologically, are often better than men at it. I think the issue is really “How free is an individual to dump someone who is doing this?” Because the behavior is extremely deep rooted, and no doubt comes from parental modeling. Or, in rare cases, one partner could be a sociopath.
In Ali’s article, the women are probably less free (economically) to leave relationships, and that’s where I think it becomes poignant. It’s similar to spousal abuse in that case.
As I’m guessing Green already knows, # 1 is just another expression of patriarchy. We all need more feminism. However, a man feeling trapped in this system is not in the same position as a women trapped, who is repeatedly being told that she is not trapped, that she is ‘imagining things’ and she is just being too emotional/crazy/sentimental/a shrew/a sourpuss (find other maddening adjectives). Just for belonging to the group of privilege, the man is in many ways in a less frustrating position. What you are saying is along the line of ‘Oh, the elites also suffer you know.… Read more »
This is not about sexual differences. This is acting as if the most important thing about your loved ones’ emotions is that they be convenient for you. Everybody does this to everybody. Women to men, men to women, parents to children, adult children to parents. And we all do it more when we’re stressed. Here’s an example of the other way. My husband gets angry at things. When I was younger, it used to make me very uncomfortable. I hated his anger. He was too angry for me, but not too angry for him. So I learned not to try… Read more »
Susan’s is the most helpful comment here for my money.
She’s realistic about the emotions at play, she gives a real life example – where Ali’s sound hypothetical – and her story inspires readers to change for the benefits changing offers instead of seeking to paralyze them with guilt and shame.
The contrast between the helpfulness of Susan’s comment and the futility of the identity politics and victim worship going on around it suggest to me that the latter are pretty bankrupt as a force for social change.
Good point. Generally (sorry), there are a lot of situational and relative dynamics & realities that come into play – one can’t really generalize reliably, with any good claim to unconditional objectivity, uniformity or certainty: Personal situational realities are just too diverse. It’s important to appreciate the implications that what is subjectively true for one person in one situation can be equally, validly false for another person in another subjective situation. It’s too easy to say to with certainty and objectivity that ‘men are always doing this’ or ‘women are always doing that’ – it presumes that there is ONE… Read more »
This article also has its heart in the right place. However, I believe the way you worded your idea about victimization might be triggering. While I personally see your point, I am also an unapologetically loud woman. I believe I can empower myself. But from a lot of women’s point of view it does feel helpless when they are gaslighted. And I don’t think you’d argue that the way we socialize women is significantly different than men, in terms of public spaces even today. So rather than brushing off Ali’s article as simply victimizing, I read it as an appeal… Read more »
while we’re on race to go….. Mr Greene you remind me of white south africans who love to say… we were also damaged by apartheid…..LOL LOL LOL I hope you have enough humor to appreciate what I am saying to you. The gender inequalities in this world are staggering, even inside the good old US of A. But the minute anyone tries to adress a particular symptom, or form of oppression there come a flood of male geeks arguing that they too have experienced oppression…yet oddly, when I Iook around me, and at you, all I see is this dance… Read more »
“do you cite the relative murder by spouse statistics…no… because they totally disprove your attempts to say there isn’t a gender problem. ” The only one denying there is a gender issue is you, by your denial that men could possibly have issues. Saying “hey, women aren’t the only victims here” is not the same as saying women aren’t victims. Are you a feminist by chance? (I was tempted to remove that last line but since I didn’t edit the comment you’re replying to it wouldn’t be right to edit yours here. By all means call them on the denial… Read more »
Hi Caroline, If I understand correctly here, what you are saying is women never harm men? Or don’t harm enough of them for those who are hurt to matter? Wow. That’s an amazing thing to say. Allow me to quote my article, since your “dance of death” seeming to be side stepping some of it. For some insight, look at the CDC’s statistics on physical abuse in relationships by gender. The report states: “More than 1 in 3 women (35.6%) and more than 1 in 4 men (28.5%) in the United States have experienced rape, physical violence, and/or stalking by… Read more »
Am I crazy for thinking that the axis of virtue or villiany is NOT gender (or race, religion, class, ethnicity, and so on)?
If a murderer happens to be male or female, that’s a characteristic of one who is a murderer; not characteristic TO murderers. Murderers are not representative of males (or females); but gender (among other demographics) are a way of representing murderers. One has to ask what is representative of what.
Well if it helps, the cdc found 40% of rapists in 2010 were female, and equal numbers of men n women were raped. But hey, bury your head in the sand more if it makes you feel better.
“Well if it helps, the cdc found 40% of rapists in 2010 were female, and equal numbers of men n women were raped. But hey, bury your head in the sand more if it makes you feel better.” –
Do you have a source for that?
http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/NISVS_Report2010-a.pdf
On page 24 it describes that virtually all women reported their rapists were male, and 79.2% of men who were forced to penetrate described their attackers were female. Do note that the very definition of rape used by the CDC made “forced to penetrate” a non-rape crime, so that factor needs to be taken into account. Based on Tables 2.1 and 2.2, the 12 month figures for female rape victims and male “forced to penetrate” victims were both 1.1%, while male rape and female forced to penetrate were so insignificant as to be unusable.
Thanks, I need to make a macro, I post them so often, I’m getting sick n tired of it and sad that it wasn’t big news. It’s one of the most important findings for sexual assault in the last decade and didn’t get a mention in the news….how depressing.
One thing I noticed when going over it again that is really bothering me is, even in the assessments, it looks like male victimization was attempted to be minimalized. On page 18-19, while discussing the prevalence, it goes over the details of rape, giving all numbers found. It made sure to note that in the 12 month figures, rape was not significant enough among men to give usable numbers. But when discussing the prevalence of “forced to penetrate” it doesn’t even bother to mention the 12 month figures, only mentioning the lifetime values.
Exactly, They buried the stats. From what I see bias against males in stats on abuse is very common. Hell take a look at the duluth model of domestic violence n how it ignores female perpetrated violence.
That source gives this right up front:
“Nearly 1 in 5 women (18.3%) and 1 in 71 men (1.4%) in the United States have been raped at some time in their lives…” so I’m not sure where the commenter who said equal numbers of men and women were raped gets it from.
@MKraft, “forced to penetrate” wasn’t included as rape in the CDC stats, but the commenter is including that in the definition. The 1:1 parity happens in the “last 12 months”.
When one specifically excludes male rape victims as being rape victims, it becomes very easy to make it look like males are not really victims. The summary does that kind of wordplay in a number of areas, but rape is the most significant, and you’ll notice how often it is included in the package of violence, and how rarely domestic abuse, on it’s own (without rape tagged on) occurs. This is in order to use the exclusion of males from being rape victims to pad the numbers to make women appear to be the victims of all violence at grater… Read more »
Good idea Archy….the ignorance around this issue is baffling.