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“Your greatest challenge will be to honor the erotic feelings and desires that will come up inside you while also staying fully present and respectful.” Advice from Janis Whitlock to her son.
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I simply cannot be quiet anymore. Amidst the silence that has always surrounded sex even when the billion dollar industries it fuels scream loudly in your ears (and mine!) day and night, I must speak to you in a voice you can hear. I’ll not embarrass you by having this conversation in your presence, I can already feel the strangled mix of emotions that arise in you when the topic comes up at all. I will respect your privacy by saying what I have to say to you in this way, so you can have your feelings without witness.
I ask of you only one thing: that you read my letter from start to finish. I cannot scream as loudly as the pictures and jokes and sly games that mark the passage into the sexual aspects of boyhood in this culture. I have to speak in a normal voice and I have to request, as your mother and a woman who has lived nearly 50 years on this planet, that you simply read what I need to say all the way through.
♦◊♦
First, I want you to know I like and have always liked sex. The feelings and touching that goes along with all of it is fun. Flirting is fun, wondering what might happen, even if nothing ever does, enjoying the simple way it feels to be touched by someone I am attracted to, is all good. Wild sex or soft slow sex or whatever kind of sex I am in the mood for has always been nice and I would wish only the very same for you. But, I am rare in many ways. I am one of the few women I know who has never been really hurt by sex. I was never raped or held in any way against my will. The closest I came to a compromising position was with a guy I was dating who would not stop pestering me to have sex one night after a date until I eventually gave in. It was very much not enjoyable, but I knew that I could have simply walked away and I did not. I learned a lot from that experience, though, including how to never make the same mistake again, so it was a good lesson learned in the long run. You may have some of those too.
So, all in all, my sex life has not been anything like you have probably already seen on movies or in porn clips or whatever is passed off today as sex for the cheap thrill it brings. I have loved most of my partners and definitely felt connected to everyone else (except one – story for another time). This was both a choice and probably easier to pull off in my youth since there were so many fewer ideas floating around about what sex was and how it is done and what it is supposed to look like than you have. I had to use my heart, my head, and my body to figure my way through; it worked well for me.
It will be much the same for you; even in the crazy pornified world you are growing up in. You may have to work a little harder, though, to make it that way since the movies you watch and the fast and easy porn you have undoubtedly already seen is pretty much impossible to avoid these days (one had to really seek that stuff out when I was young). So please listen closely to what I will say next, I need you to hear me say all of it:
♦◊♦
There is nothing you have seen that I have not seen or do not know about. I am not a fool and I am not blind. You do not need to protect me from what you know. And, most importantly, there is nothing you have felt inside yourself that I have not felt myself and / or have seen or felt in the men in my life. No person on the planet (well, none that I know of or have ever met) can avoid the strong sexual feelings that come up when they see sexual pictures or movies or, in many cases, when they see naked or otherwise sexy bodies. These feelings can be especially strong for boys and men. I remember these feelings as a teen and I recall both the force they had and the feeling of being overwhelmed at times. That gets easier over time, but having those feelings come up is normal and healthy; it means you are human.
Your greatest challenge will be to honor the erotic feelings and desires that will come up inside you while also staying fully present and respectful. This is a tough one—particularly in this time and particularly for boys and men who are relentlessly sold the idea and lots of things to go along with it that women are things when you want and need them to be. So many of the movies you watch and all of the porn you will ever see will convey this one way or another—each person is an object, there is not real connection between them, and the only important thing is that you receive sexual pleasure (giving is never taught at all). Telling you this is away to get you buy things for the “high” sex offers. Your desires become to tool to getting you to consume. It is clever because the marketers know it works for most people since even the images produce drugs in your body that make you want more. It is absolutely critical and is the mark of true manhood, that you both understand this and learn how to enjoy and cultivate your sexual self without using another person solely as a tool; even if she seems to be saying that this is okay. It really is not. Similarly, no person has the right to make you a tool for their sexual pleasure; no one wins anything this way, it simply ends up feeling cheap. I do not expect you to be a saint and I do expect that you will have to make a few mistakes along the way, but I am here as your mom and as a woman to tell you that getting this lesson is one of the most important things you will ever do as a man and as a human being. And, it has never been harder to strike this balance than it is now, so please let me or your dad or stepdad or anyone else you trust know if you ever want advice about how to do this. It is normal to want and to have those feelings of want overcome everything else; just ask yourself to not be lazy in this way.
Women do not actually enjoy most of the things you see in porn. Actually, most men do not either. Porn is way to sell you a drug; a whole bunch of drugs your body produces when watching (in particular—dopamine, norepinephrine, testosterone, oxytocin, serotonin—a lot! I can tell you what each of these do inside of you if you like). Sex with a real person that you like does this too, but having this happen with a real person causes you to feel attachment to a real person; having this happen with porn causes desire for more porn. Unlike being with a real person, though, using porn, images, or even other real people with no emotional connection present will not ever fully satisfy you. The things you see in porn are designed to get you temporarily high, not cultivate an authentic connection with another or to teach you about good and pleasurable sex with someone you like and would actually want to please or be pleased by.
Most of the men you see are jacked up on drugs to stay hard for hours on end, the women also often take drugs to be able to produce scene after scene; their bodies are there but their hearts and minds are far away. Bodies are aroused by friction and body contact and porn limits that so that the camera angles will get the shots that will best deliver the drugs to viewers. Many of the activities they do are not actually pleasurable (e.g. women do not like men to cum on their face, many do not particularly enjoy anal sex, and most women do not actually want several men inside of them at once..). These are ploys to get viewers aroused and wanting more; nothing else. A real girl and woman will want you to touch more of her body than her genitals, will like slow kissing, cuddling, talking and touching before anything more serious happens, and will want to feel safe and respected by you; not used by you. Basically nothing you see there or even in many of the sex scenes in most movies reflect good sex. Don’t mistake this for education.
The very best sex happens in a relationship. Study after study has shown this. For men and women, the best, most pleasurable sex you will ever have will be with a real person and with someone that you feel emotionally connected to and safe with. No matter how it “looks” from the outside, what your buddies say, how hot she is etc.. – I guarantee that the best sex you will ever have will be with a woman you actually really like and who likes you back. This liking and trust will allow each of you to be more honest about what does and does not feel good, what do you do and do not like and the sense of closeness and trust you have before during and after will make the whole thing awesome. This is the best and I wish it for you. The quality of the sex and touch and cuddling alone is worth taking time to really find someone you like!
Appreciating a woman’s prettiness, sexiness, or beauty is sweet but blatantly staring, making comment, jokes or other kinds of overtures feels invasive and yucky. Please pass the word to your guy friends now before they fall into bad habits—women do not like to be ogled. Long stares, looking her up and down, focusing on something other than her eyes or face when talking, making comments or joking with friends as she passes are rude and contribute to girls and women feeling unsafe and disrespected. This leads women to feel like an object rather than a person (hence the term “objectified”). This is true even when she is dressed or acting in a way that seems to invite this type of attention. There are all sorts of reasons that girls and women dress or act in a way that seems to invite this male sexual attention and it rarely has anything to do with really wanting that, or if it does, it has more to do with wanting the chemicals I mention above that wanting an actual person. Just because she makes an object of herself to escape her feelings, does not invite you to. Please remember to always be a gentleman in this way; it will make you a great friend to many wonderful women and that is a true accomplishment since there is no more beautiful place than a woman’s heart, honest.
You do not need to protect me from your sexual feelings. I do not mean to say that I expect you to talk to me; talk to whomever is comfortable, only that I am fully aware that you have these feelings and that these may feel a little or a lot confusing at times. I can imagine that even trying to see me as a sexual person feels overwhelming since you are just coming to terms with this in yourself. That is fine and will pass with time. I am totally willing to talk to you at any time about anything; there really is not much that could shock me—as someone who used to teach sex education and as a woman with nearly 5 complete decades on the planet, I have seen it all and I understand most of it. The capacity to feel so close to someone that you wish to merge bodies is an amazing gift here and one I hope you will really cherish and enjoy as you grow up.
I love you with all of my heart and am so happy to be sharing this life with you!
Mom
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that what i i would said back in my teenage days……https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9AwJG1ATlA
Thank you for writing this article. I got a lot out of it. It is a lot to think about and to talk/write about to my 15-yr-old son. Thanks for showing us how. How did you son respond to it?
Dear Janis, I like what you said. And in our culture, which is in fact very adversarial and predatory in many ways, it is very important to discover ways for men to mature into beings and roles that are supportive of the advancement of individuals and groups toward an actual civilization. We may have some of the trapping of that, but not the functions, as we wast astonishing amounts of energy of fictions, frictions, and fantasies. Even in government. Maybe especially there. The one useful thing I might add here is to highly recommend for readers of any gender or… Read more »
Janis, completely off topic. Did you work for the CA Youth conservation corp at Torrey Pines the summer of 1981 or 82? If so, I’d love to catch up. This is Stephanie Irey (then Cromley). You can email me if you like.
Stephanie
Sorry about my typo
I wanted to ask if you live in India now.
Maybe this was a Freudian slip.
Telegraph co uk 2013 NSPCC: ‘Girls think they have to act like porn stars to be liked by boys’ Girls think they have to look and perform “like porn stars” to be liked and valued by boys, a landmark report by the children’s charity NSPCC shows. By Louisa Peacock and Emma Barnett 7:00AM BST 03 Sep 2013 Almost a third of school pupils believe online pornography dictates how young people have to behave in a relationship, the study of 601 pupils aged 11 to 18 reveals. The majority of pupils surveyed – 72 per cent – also said porn should… Read more »
Hi Rational Thinker Here is from the newspaper article you posted: “✺”The comprehensive study, commissioned by The Daily Telegraph, highlights the extent to which the growth of online porn is, in many cases, distorting school children’s ideas and real-life experiences about what a good relationship looks like.”✺ On GMP we have another thread about men opting out as fathers. Men wanting causal sex and abandoning pregnant girlfriends is not a new phenomena. In my country this was a problem in the working class in the period after WW2 1945-1965 and resulted in a huge increase in adoption of children. The… Read more »
“On GMP we have another thread about men opting out as fathers. Men wanting causal sex and abandoning pregnant girlfriends is not a new phenomena. In my country this was a problem in the working class in the period after WW2 1945-1965 and resulted in a huge increase in adoption of children. The stigma to be a single mother was to hard ,and society punished the women in all sorts of ways. Now we have this problem in America.” – Its not quite the same problem here in the States, but it used to be back in the 40s, 50s… Read more »
Hi Janis This is a website for men and their issues. One problem many men talk about is their “sexless marriage”. Can you give advice to them about how to handle the fact that sometimes women seems to loose all interest in them sexually. Some men on GMP are also incels. They have not yet found their first girlfriend. Maybe they would like to ask women a few questions before their first lovemaking ? Somehow I fear that an article about porn addiction is not what they want right now. What they see as their problem is not porn. When… Read more »
” When dr.Brandy Engler gave good advice about how to be a good lover,she got little response. I wonder why? Maybe men tend to believe only other men can tell them how to be good lovers. ” Ah is not true, Iben, doctor Nerdlove gets also lots of criticism (rightfully so) beside IMO the best dating advices are found in the PUA community, and most of advices outhere, feminist or otherwise recycle lots of PUA materials. So better go to the source. Beside lots of incels guy learned on how to approach women from their mothers, sisters and female friends.… Read more »
Hi Mr Supertypo You made me laugh. I love this sentence: ✺ “Beside lots of incels guy learned on how to approach women from their mothers, sisters and female friends. No wonder they dont trust female advice. “✺ Mammas boys need to cut the umbilical cord. But remember dr. Engler is a sexologist. Psychologist or psychiatrist. I agree with you that debate about porn always turns into a gender war. My curiosity brought me to some PUA sites, but they all seems to have the similar advice for men in bed. To be dominant and lead. That implies that all… Read more »
” You made me laugh. I love this sentence: ” LOL glad for giving a good time 🙂 ” I agree with you that debate about porn always turns into a gender war. My curiosity brought me to some PUA sites, but they all seems to have the similar advice for men in bed. To be dominant and lead. That implies that all women like to be submissive and like to be dominated,hold so fast that can not move etc. ” Oh the best way to have a porn conversation is to remove all anti porn folks and “rational ”… Read more »
Hi Iben,
Mammas boys need to cut the umbilical cord.
Thanks for showing that you totally missed the point on receiving dating/love-making tips from women.
Hi FlyingKal
I agree, that remark was insensitive and stupid.
But somehow a few men are actually too closly tied to their mothers as adults and all sex for them has an incestous flavor…
But there are thousands of resons why men and women are incels. The “mambo” we call them as opposed to “sambo” in Nowrwegian. Mambo means a man still living with his mother like Fleksnes..
Hi Iben,
Still, regardless of how you live, the point was that if you need advice, be sure to get it from someone who knows (from experience) what they are talking about. Getting it from someone who just think so may often be counterproductive.
On a side note, I heard that Rolv Wesenlund passed away just recently. May he rest in peace.
Hi FlyingKal We can agree on that. Rolv left us. We are all sorry he had to leave us so soon. You write: “the point was that if you need advice, be sure to get it from someone who knows (from experience) what they are talking about” And both men and women can give advice about sexualty based on own experience . But what really makes two persons so happy together that the earth moves when they make love is the large unknown X. It is not technical skills. Maybe it is spiritual or a transcendencedental experience ….. I have… Read more »
Regarding the “mambos” and “sambos”, in many cultures men live with their parents until they get married, and in some cultures (like mine) men live with their parents their entire lives, bringing their brides home to live with them too!
It is very common in South Asia.
Hi Rational Thinker
Yes you are right . As far as I know it is also the culture in places like South America and Spain.
So this is very much a cultural thing and I was wrong to use living with your family as an example.
Do you love in India now ?
Hi Rational Thinker
Typo.
I wanted to ask if you live in India now.
“When dr.Brandy Engler gave good advice about how to be a good lover,she got little response. I wonder why? Maybe men tend to believe only other men can tell them how to be good lovers.” – They’d be making a huge mistake. The only way to become a “good lover” is for a man to listen to his partner and do what she says turns her on. And that’s just one woman. He’ll have to keep listening and changing his technique with every new partner because every woman is different. “One problem many men talk about is their “sexless marriage”.… Read more »
Rational: They’d be making a huge mistake. The only way to become a “good lover” is for a man to listen to his partner and do what she says turns her on. And that’s just one woman. He’ll have to keep listening and changing his technique with every new partner because every woman is different. And vice versa. However, withdrawing from listening and discussing as well as practicing, sure isn’t gonna make a “good lover” out of anybody, regardless of gender/sex. Wives also complain about “sexless marriage”, particularly the lack of QUALITY sex. I’ve ony ever heard one woman complain… Read more »
“However, withdrawing from listening and discussing as well as practicing, sure isn’t gonna make a “good lover” out of anybody, regardless of gender/sex.”
I don’t understand the meaning or context of the above. Care to explain?
@Rational Thinker: I can’t really see any ambiguity in it, but anyway: The context or background to the comment was a man, being in a sexless relationship, trying repeatedly to discuss the situation with his girlfriend, to get her view of it, and to find out whatever faults or shortcomings (technical or otherwise) he may possess that ought to be worked out to improve the situation. His girlfriend’s position, however, was that it was perfectly natural for a woman to be less interested in sex than a man, and also losing interest in a relationship. And that there was no… Read more »
@Rational Thinker:
The context is that for someone to listen in order to improve, it requires a partner that is interested in the improvement as well as an understanding of what needs to improve and an ability to talk about it.
If your partner isn’t interested in either having sex or talking about it (how to improve it), then whatever your ability to listen as well as your willingness to improve, does not matter much for your rate of becoming a better lover.
A successful communication takes (at least) two participants!
Hi Rational Thinker You write: ✺”The only way to become a “good lover” is for a man to listen to his partner and do what she says turns her on. And that’s just one woman. He’ll have to keep listening and changing his technique with every new partner because every woman is different.”✺ I only partly agree. If you want to dance you first have to learn a few basic steps. If a man wants to make love to a woman he should also knew the basics first and not expect to be told what to do. Maybe some women… Read more »
Rational:
A better sexual relationship is created when both partners both listen to and express their desires to each other. Good lovers do not only listen, they also share their interests.
The way your comment is written it appears that you want men to obey women sexually without women also listening to men. There needs to be two way communication. Both partners can bring new ideas to relationship from various sources: the karma sutra, conversation with friends, even porn!
my impression to….
GMP isn’t about men anymore. It’s about how women don’t want a good man, they want a wussified male that they can control.
What a great article! As a life-long lover of porn, I do have to agree that seeing plastic people pretend to get off isn’t the best basis for developing a real sexuality… but that’s why they have amateur sites!!!!!!
Hi Janis
Yes we need a GMP blog about sexual intelligence! Please Janis and Rational Thinker we need you 🙂
I found no room for comments about circumcision. As a woman I am 100% against it, but not because of my pleasure but HIS pleasure and health.
For me the sexual experience has never been less intense or less pleasant with a cut man.
But Danish studies say it so for some women.
Thanks for the prompt Iben! I do want to write more on all of this for GMP so maybe that is the next one? Rational, what do you think??
What would you want to be sure it said?
I have also been amazed that GMP has nothing on porn or sex addiction – that seems important.
Janis, you’re the expert, so I say you should do that. Maybe you could have a regular “Ask The Sex Educator” column here.
a few years ago here, there was a couple that wrote article after article after article, about porn addiction
(i remember there being few replies, so i think they got bored and left)
you might their articles in the archives, though cataloging can be weird
There’s an excellent website by a doctor I came across with videos (porn?), diagrams, and everything, regarding the difference between cut and natural.
I’ve searched for it again but can’t find it.
I have heard that they use cut men in porn because supposedly it “looks better”. Is that true? Seems odd to me.
As the rate of circumcision in the US continues to drop more natural penises are being found in porn. Also, once erect, the visual difference between a circumcised and intact penis is minimal.
“Looks better” is in the eye of the beholder.
Hi Scott
You get offended easily .
You seem to be totally blind to the fact that your values and ideas are insults to lots of persons.
Stop whining about being insulted when you are unable to change others into your own views and attitudes.
Iben,
I thought you said you were not longer going to talk to me.
I’m not really sure what your “whining” about now (your term, not mine). I suspect that there may be a bit of a language barrier here. Is English your first language?
If my “values and ideas are insults to lots of persons.” then consider that yours may also be insulting to many people as well. You seem to have fallen into the hypocrisy trap on several occasions during this debate.
Hi Scott
Forgive me.
I promise never to do that again. 🙂
I don’t really know how to put this. But anyway. In my experience. I like to think that most people, a vast majority, are able to put at least a minor amount of restrain to themself. Alcohol is also an addictive substance. But most people who may taste alcohol for the first time in their teens actually may enjoy the occassional beer or glass of wine on a Friday night or Saturday afternoon, and do not go on to become full-fledged, full-time addicts with time. I like to believe it’s the same with depictions of sexual activities. They are a… Read more »
FlyingKal – yes, that is an important distinction. My issue is that there is evidence that with the widespread availability of porn, there are an increasing number of people who prefer that to a real human being 9and women seem to be increasingly drawn to chat rooms) or to porn or online hook ups in addition to their partner 9and the partner often has NO idea..). The other issue is that the images and availability is serving as a sex and relationship education tool for youth and adults and this is NOT good – it is a masturbation aide and… Read more »
Hi Janis, and thanks for your answer. It does however stir another question: there are an increasing number of people who prefer that to a real human being 9and women seem to be increasingly drawn to chat rooms) If both men and women are increasingly withdrawing from human interaction in favour of the internet, is it a bigger problem that the men do it than the women? Is it less of a problem that women get their needs/fantasies/desires fulfilled that way than the men? Or can it be seen as a mutual, interconnected, and self-perpetuating problem, that both groups withdraw… Read more »
Hi Rational Thinker
I read your reply to Scott about South Asians and sexualty.
This is interesting. Do you know if persons that live like that have lower divorce rates than us in then West?
For me marriage was a shock because sex was expected and wanted daily or many times a day, and i reacted against it,and comflicts arose. That marriage did not last.
Can you recommend any literature about what you tell Scott about?
Hi Iben. Indians like to brag about their collective very low divorce rates. However I can tell you that this is not reflective of a huge collective of happy marriages but more a reflection that divorce is severely stigmatized in Indian culture. Most Indian marriages are still arranged and while I’d like to think most couples “fall in love” over time, and indeed, many do, there are some that never do but they stay married because that is just the done thing in the culture. Even in cases of abuse many Indians will stay married because divorce is just not… Read more »
“For me marriage was a shock because sex was expected and wanted daily or many times a day, and i reacted against it,and comflicts arose. ”
Sexual compatibility is very important in a marriage and I think these things should be talked about before any commitment is made.
Obviously someone with a moderate libido is not well matched with someone with a high one.
Janis,
I don’t think you and I will come to terms on the issue of porn. But, I thin I have seen some glimmers of meaningful exchange on other gender relation topics. I think there are some interesting threads to follow. This forum seems to have devolved into a debate about porn and only porn. It would be useful to debate some of the other aspects gender dynamics – without derision. If only we could keep the porn issue from derailing the conversation.
Agreed on all fronts.
Janis, with the subject of “not trusting male sexuality” or “not trusting Testosterone” being brought up, we have to face the fact that probably most parents warn their daughters about male sexual predators. We teach them to be wary of leaving their drinks unattended, going off somewhere alone with a stranger, etc, etc. Is this because we all (both mothers and fathers) know that Testosterone, if not controlled, can lead men to behave in predatory, even criminal ways, if all the “stars align” so to speak to provide them with ripe oppurtunities for exploitation, or is it because there is… Read more »
Great question and I am not sure. Sexual assault is common enough to not really qualify as deviancy I think. But, it is also true that a large percentage of the males who sexually abuse anyone else have been a victim of abuse first (over 90% of the guys I provided sex education to were in for sexual assault and about 90% of those had been sexually assaulted). So, wounds beget wounds. Honestly, I think it has less to do with a chemical, per say, than a consciousness. And, in all honestly, I do think things are better than they… Read more »
“Sexual assault is common enough to not really qualify as deviancy I think. But, it is also true that a large percentage of the males who sexually abuse anyone else have been a victim of abuse first (over 90% of the guys I provided sex education to were in for sexual assault and about 90% of those had been sexually assaulted). ” – There seems to be varying degrees of sexual inappropriateness. Hardcore sexual predators, like pedophiles and serial rapists come from backgrounds of abuse. I’ve read with pedophiles the age at which they themselves were abused becomes the “default… Read more »
Rational – I have seen even “soft core” sexual assault cases with teen boys as perps who have been abused. I think it is more common than we know – just like with girls. As for the street harassment – that blows me away and really does smack of socialization, not trauma. We are seeing more of that here (less pronounced, but definitely different in flavor than when I was a girl) as a result, I think, of porn images and accessibility – is communicates acceptability of using women in that way and primes the brain to look at women,… Read more »
@Rational Thinker,
[but] if the only people who would actually do this exploiting are a small minority of deviants who “can’t help it” anyway because of perhaps genetics or some “off” chemical wiring in their makeup or something, well, what is the point of these sensitivity trainings?
That’s a thing I’ve been thinking about quite a lot too.
I’d wager that 99% of the men who are reading and actually taking to heart what is written in articles and/or on pages like this, are the ones who actually need it the least…
Hi FlyingKal
Unfortunately it is not so.
Look at some of the comments to the article here on GMP:”Washing Post runs a piece arguing teachers shouldn’t be jailed for sex with underage students”
https://goodmenproject.com/good-feed-blog/washington-post-runs-a-piece-arguing-teachers-shouldnt-be-jailed-for-sex-with-underage-students/
Re Washington post article: Scary! The only upside to all of this that I can see is that we are finally getting honest. The statements, the beliefs, the desires that were formally reserved for the locker or backroom conversations are finally coming out. I do think sensitivity trainings are helpful for a variety of people. for example, we had a guy where I worked who was a nice guy but was inappropriate with me and few other women. I do not think he was a radically damaged person and I think that if we had the sexual harassment training we… Read more »
If we want to stop assaults and sexual assaults, we need to understand the motivations of the perpetrators. Yes, they are still accountable for their actions, but we need to understand what happened in their life to cause them to behave in such a way and try to prevent it from happening to others.
“I do think sensitivity trainings are helpful for a variety of people. for example, we had a guy where I worked who was a nice guy but was inappropriate with me and few other women. I do not think he was a radically damaged person and I think that if we had the sexual harassment training we had last year while he was here, it would have really opened his eyes (and mine!) since, at the very least, he might have clued into the illegality of his actions.” – Yes. I think sexual inappropriateness, like sexuality itself, runs on a… Read more »
Hi Iben,
Unfortunately it is not so.
I don’t know what you mean, and don’t understand in what way the linked article disprove my statement.
This is interesting. I think what really is IMPORTANT here is that mom is truyingto teach son to be aware of his future partners. That they are humans, they have thoughts and feelings. What is a little danergous to me is saying “women don’t like…xyb” We are all different. If he grows to be an involved and in-touch human he will be happy and his partners will be. What if he encounters a women who DOES enjoy cum on her face? It’s not up to anyone else to disect the whys and hows. We all have different things we like… Read more »
Kelsey, I assume that he will figure that one out as he goes along – I just do not want him to assume that simply b/c he’ll likely see more “facials” in his teen years than I and 100 of my friends will or have seen in a lifetime. I am sure you are right that there are a few women out there who do not mind it, but I suspect that the number who LIKE and want cum on their faces are a) about as many as men who want that and b) are about as many of us… Read more »
“. I am sure you are right that there are a few women out there who do not mind it, but I suspect that the number who LIKE and want cum on their faces are a) about as many as men who want that ” Bingo! So why aren’t there just as many “money shots” of men receiving “facials” from women squatting over them, as there are women receiving them? Hmmmm? ” What’s interesting about porn or strippers or any other kind of sex work is, you know, it’s women whose job it is to impersonate lust or to fake… Read more »
Nice quote. From what I understand about sex addiction, interestingly, is that many of the men and women who use sex as a way of getting out of feelings are also really deeply seeking human connection. Since access to unity consciousness is often closer during orgasm than in many other daily activities, sex becomes a kinda overused and sad tool for a really understandable desire. So, sex workers become sources of comfort and betray a yearning for the divine – go figure!
Your perspective is deeply entrenched in the tantric traditions. Other people don’t use sex in such a way. They may view the tantric use of sex as unusual and a bit strange. It doesn’t make either perspective wrong, they are just different.
You may think tantric sexual practices are the only correct way to use sex, but that is only your opinion.
No, only my use of sex these days is tantric (mostly). My perspective on what is really going on and what people are really after, even if they are not aware of it, is grounded in my knowledge of psychology and human development (I am an academic who specializes in human development and connectedness). I am also a former sexuality educator so have and do spend a lot of time endeavoring to understand, from a very western perspective, what motives sexual experience and activity. With the numbers of men (and women, but less steeply) with sex and porn addiction skyrocketing… Read more »
I suppose the solution is simply everything in moderation. Porn, used in moderation, is not destructive, so long as one keeps in touch with reality, real sexual partners and the rest of life. Just like alcohol, if it’s used in moderation, it can be enjoyable and not damaging.
“Kelsey, I assume that he will figure that one out as he goes along ” – Figuring out one’s own sexuality through self pleasure/masturbation as well as exploring sexuality with one’s partner face to face and one on one, through communication and trial and error, seems not to be the done thing anymore since internet porn made its debut. Its almost as if some people think one needs to watch porn in order to have a sexual awakening at all. Very strange. Humans experience sexual awakening during puberty when their sex hormones kick into gear. That’s when masturbation becomes a… Read more »
I know this is probably an impossible question. But do you think women, in general, enjoy receiving oral sex? If it is from a man who actually does take instructions (if they are conveyed in a somewhat interpretable fashion), is willing to learn, and draw great deal of pleasure out of actually providing enjoyment and pleasure for his partner?
//From a man who has been giving “head” on probably a 20:1 ratio in his adulthood
“I know this is probably an impossible question. But do you think women, in general, enjoy receiving oral sex? If it is from a man who actually does take instructions (if they are conveyed in a somewhat interpretable fashion), is willing to learn, and draw great deal of pleasure out of actually providing enjoyment and pleasure for his partner?” YES. In a culture where oral sex is normalized, such as post-modern Western cultures, yes it is reasonable to assume that generally women from such cultures would enjoy all the above. In cultures where oral sex is not normalized, probably not.… Read more »
It sounds like you just don’t think generous male lovers exist. It also sounds like you feel that the only correct way to have sex is if the man is obedient to the woman’s sexual requirements. A better model would be both partners discussing their preferences and together arriving at an expression of their sexuality that is mutually satisfying. Ideas for thing to try in a sexual relationship can from porn, the karma sutra, original ideas or discussions with other people. So long as both parties are enjoying themselves and enjoying what is happening I don’t see why the sources… Read more »
Rational: I really agree with you about the demise of using our own, personal and real life experience to figure it all out. I have always wished for more candid discussion of sexuality with youth (this is what drove me to become an educator out of college) but porn is really not what I had in mind for education. It seems to be creating a sexually lazy and anesthetized population. Why even bother with real people and other’s desires when you can watch her screaming away while he is pounding (filmed for the male perspective, of course) and just pretend… Read more »
I stil think the effect of mass circumcision is under estimated in the sexual behaviour of men. Not only is a significant amount of very sensitive sexual tissues removed but, the head of the penis is dried out and the skin keratenized due to being exposed all the time and rubbing against clothing. The fine touch receptors are deadened, so pressure receptors become the main sensory input point. So, to achieve pressure on the penis circumcised men tend to “pound away” at the woman. I also think that is where the fixation of “tightness” of the female comes from. A… Read more »
Re: circumcision.
I agree and I wrote above comparing and contrasting the cut experience with the natural experience.
I could have never married a cut man.
In my opinion circumcision is child abuse and should be outlawed.
Okay, this is really freaking me out. I’m not used to agreeing with Rational, but in this case I do.
@Janis, Rational: I really agree with you about the demise of using our own, personal and real life experience to figure it all out. I have always wished for more candid discussion of sexuality with youth (this is what drove me to become an educator out of college) but porn is really not what I had in mind for education. It seems to be creating a sexually lazy and anesthetized population. I am fast approaching middle-age, however you define it. (Most people would probably say I’m already there.) But I assure you that being sexually lazy and avoiding candid discussion… Read more »
There are, and lots of men enjoy drinking the cum of a woman, or having her sitting on top…..
Rational people know’s that. And its not even difficult to find it, but for some other people…..
I have personally been asked by a few women to unload on their face (or other parts of the body), without so much as a hint from my part. It’s not that rare, so either my experience is exceptional or it’s not that rare overall. I suspect that your estimate of how many women want this is biased, because you just can’t imagine someone liking it. Granted, the frequency at which this happens is far less than what porn would suggest. I can’t imagine why a woman would like it, but It’s quite possible that some women end up liking… Read more »
Hi Janis and Rational Thinker
The two of you are great . I love you:)
So those who have different perspective and opinions arent great? Haha just kidding 😀
Hi John
It is easier to say I love you to women than to men since they know it is usually meant as flirting.
But I love you too John, and liked the letter you wrote to your future son. Kindness….
Typo
Women know it is usually NOT ment as flirting.
Thanks Iben! The feeling is mutual! 🙂
Yes, John, unfortunately we humans tend to be somewhat tribal but if you change your opinion a bit and join the tribe you can be great too 🙂
Hmm, what from my opinion need to change? Did some of my post offend you?
I qm playing with you, John. I welcome the conversation – even when I do not agree with you. Last night I saw a post of yours come in that I cannot find now and since I really need to turn to work, I will respond here. You wrote: No its not . Porn its just a fantasy movie about consensual adults having sex. Everything else its just bull. I know ‘Rational Thinker’ have fantasies about snuff porn and lot more. But they are the minority of it and are not representative. Yes a porn movie, are exactly the same… Read more »
Mmmm Janis,before you left, I want to tell you, I never wrote that. Its Scott post if I’m not mistaken. I’m actually in many ways ( including porn ) disagree with Scott, and I agree with you about porn. My point in my previous post is I have another message that aren’t in your letter ( and many other letter from parents to sons I found on the internet ) that I think really important to teach to our sons, about male sexuality and gender role in society, about how to respect their body and sexuality first, about men role… Read more »
Thanks for this clarification, John. I really appreciate these messages you would emphasize in a letter to sons or boys and honestly do hope that you will speak this to young men you know – before you have sons. I think it is more difficult to grow up a male in this culture than a female, quite honestly, and I think boys and young men really need straight up talk from other men. I do not even think porn is bad and wrong – just better in small doses and mixed in with a varied set of authentic messages about… Read more »
Interesting, perhaps there is some area for agreement between you and I.
“I do not even think porn is bad and wring – just better in small does and mixed in with a varied set of authentic messages about what sex is and can be.”
Just as a vibrator is a quick release for women, porn can be a quick release for men. Neither should replace real relationships or become the dominant form of sexual expression – in my mind at least.
“Just as a vibrator is a quick release for women, porn can be a quick release for men.”
Porn is not an equivalent corollary to the vibrator, a flesh light is.
Again, what you and John and possibly a few others here seem to miss is that porn involves actual human beings. No other human suffers for my private choice of using a vibrator. However the porn industry depends upon the broken spirits of suffering human beings.
There is no way such an industry could be “supported” by anyone ethical who has done the research.
The porn industry, like all industries, has aspects of exploitation and aspects which are ethical. Many people involved in porn do so of their own free will and are well compensated.
The child labourer working in a factory making your vibrator for 83 cents a day might consider themselves exploited for your sexual pleasure.
“The child labourer working in a factory making your vibrator for 83 cents a day might consider themselves exploited for your sexual pleasure.”
I don’t have a vibrator. I can’t imagine putting such a thing up into my vagina.
I shudder at the thought.
Hi Scott
It is a myth that all women have and use vibrators.
I don’t.
And actually using it may make it harder to orgasm in ordinary vaginal intercourse with a man.
Iben,
I thought you were no longer going to converse with me?
Rational,
You deflected the point. “No other human suffers for my private choice of using a vibrator.” I contend that they likely do suffer.
“No other human suffers for my private choice of using a vibrator.” I contend that they likely do suffer.”
All the more reason for me to oppose the sex industry in toto then!
“For porn, I say this once again, I agree it is bad and wrong, I just dont think it is the root problem of male sexuality. ”
Who here claimed that it was?
I explained on the first page of comments that high T levels are the root problem of male sexuality and that our culture is making a big mistake in trying to get men, even very young men, to increase their already high enough T levels.
Devotes of the tantric traditions do not represent most people. Most people do not consider testosterone a poison as you do. Low testosterone in males is associated with depression and suicide. Testosterone, like estrogen, is a vital part of properly functioning humans. You may disagree, but that is only your opinion.
“Devotes of the tantric traditions do not represent most people. Most people do not consider testosterone a poison as you do. Low testosterone in males is associated with depression and suicide. Testosterone, like estrogen, is a vital part of properly functioning humans.”
Oh blimey! Again you are being hyperbolic, “consider T a poison”… really, now?
Nowhere did I say that low T levels are healthy. Estrogen is also unhealthy in access.
Moderation is the key.
This is the second time I’ve said that.
“The cultures that do not trust Testosterone are the spiritual cultures. Yogic culture, Buddhist cultures, all the global monk cultures. They have diets and other guidelines for men to follow to lower T levels in these traditions. The reason is, like I said, moderate T levels are needed for those with a wife or otherwise committed partner to whom they are joined for the purposes of reproduction or romantic/sexual involvement. When one does not have that, because they have chosen voluntary celibacy, it is advised to keep T levels and one’s passions at low levels, in order to successfully carry… Read more »
Scott said, “Seems to me you are encouraging low levels of testosterone.”….. …. after quoting the following … “The cultures that do not trust Testosterone are the spiritual cultures. Yogic culture, Buddhist cultures, all the global monk cultures. They have diets and other guidelines for men to follow to lower T levels in these traditions. The reason is, like I said, moderate T levels are needed for those with a wife or otherwise committed partner to whom they are joined for the purposes of reproduction or romantic/sexual involvement. When one does not have that, because they have chosen voluntary celibacy,… Read more »
I think you will have an uphill battle trying to promote celibacy. Multiply religions have been preaching that for centuries with a rather poor success rate.
“I think you will have an uphill battle trying to promote celibacy.”
Where did I say I’m “promoting celibacy”?
Janis I wrote this, not John
“What can we do from here? well since we talk about women and porn the first thing is imo to educate women to be more open and confident about their sexuality, and not consider it something sacred. Its just biology, no divine intervention here.” – What? “Educate women to be more open and confident about their sexuality?! Let’s employ some rational thinking skills here. 1. First, define what you mean by “open” and “confident” and 2. Once that is defined, explain why you think women who are NOT open and confident about their sexuality, and the steps that led you… Read more »
Just out of curiosity “Rational”,
In your mind, have you ever been wrong? Have you ever changed your mind. More and more I am starting to view your mind as a rather interesting case study.
“In your mind, have you ever been wrong? Many times. ” Have you ever changed your mind. ” Many times. But unlike many people I have since childhood had a highly developed internal values system (that did not come from family, media, religion and/or cultural conditioning, hence “internal”). That values system is constant. Exposure to pornography that I have not searched for, is against my internal values system. As well as nearly all the stuff that people directly involved in the industry describe about the internal workings of the industry when interviewed. In general my internal values system is one… Read more »
Do you believe that your version of truth can co-exist with someone else’s version of truth if they are not the same? What I mean is that, as sure as you are in your opinions, do you think that other people can be justified in holding an opinion contrary to yours?
Truth is a very slippery term and is relative to each person’s experience. You seem to have reason to fundamentally distrust and dislike all males, so your “truth” is different than mine.
Scott, John or whoever wrote this, “Finally lets stop with the stereotype, that women dont like porn, a lot actually do and their number is growing, slowly but steady. The truth is some women are better to free themselves from all the social conditioning they have received. So they dont spent time sobbing and dreaming to be married. They go after what interest them. But others (not speaking about you, just in general) are still confused and balancing between traditional and progressive And this makes them feel confused and depressed in the presence of porn, because it contrast with their… Read more »
What’s so fake about sex work, Yes I understand It’s not love, but s/w comforts, creates orgasm’s and allows the luxorious experiences that is required of sex….. So What is so Unreal about that?
In the field of prostitution its part of the job to feign some sort of interest in and sexual attraction to the client. And of course fake orgasms are part of the job too.
” You seem to have reason to fundamentally distrust and dislike all males”
Enough with the Manospherian hyperbole.
Why, just because you say so? You can’t even be bothered to reply to an individual directly. You get upset when people don’t agree with you and start insulting them. Well, do your worst, I will not agree to be the sort of slanted, jaded person you seem to want people to be.
Scott, if you scroll through yours and my “exchange” you will see that you have not addressed any of my points regarding pornography. All you did was reply with questions and then statements such as…. ” You seem to have reason to fundamentally distrust and dislike all males” ……. but you’ve never addressed the actual points. So if I do the same – then? Nor do you point out what specifically gives you the idea that I “fundamentally distrust and dislike all males”? Why? Because I don’t watch porn? Because I think something needs to be done about the fact… Read more »
It seems the word “hyperbole” must have popped up on your word of the day calendar.
Admin:
When I posted my previously used IP the site page was constantly sliding upward making it difficult for me to read and comment, as well as in the bar below continuous urls for ad sites were flickering. When I switched IP addresses those problems went away but I did not see any of my comments getting posted.
tough crowd. obviously a lot of personal passion and professional insight (universal truths or not) were written in these words. as one of the most influential people in your child’s life, it will be infinitely more significant to the intended audience. thank you for sharing something that holds such meaning to you and your son. the critics raise interesting points, though the responses were as if this were some proclamation for all of civilization to base their lives upon. constructive criticism typically entails some level of respect towards the party being critiqued and after all, part of your message seems… Read more »
Agreed and thanks – I am glad that you see some merit! I do see that there are some pretty big gaps in perception between some men and women. My hope was to inspire other parents to share their own letters (or face to face fissions) with with their kids; this is a topic about which there is way too much silence.
Maybe this perspective might help when talking with our sons.
https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/andrew-smiler-a-guys-guide-on-when-to-refuse-sex/
I can also recommend this: https://goodmenproject.com/families/teaching-my-sons-the-meaning-of-sex/
Yes – I liked this. Did you?
Yes I did like this.
I know you wouldn’t print my full opinion on this. I’ve had one lengthy reply posted, another rejected. Not wasting my time wondering, or self censoring, so I’ll just write that this mother’s letter makes me feel sick.
Janis et al,
Since it is your position that porn leads to unrealistic expectations of sex, what would you think of promoting a more realistic type of porn. One that is more in line with realist expectations of a real relationship. That demonstrates a caring relationship more in line with your expectations of how people should behave?
Perhaps books could also be produced that also reflect a more traditional relationship?
Just a though, I’d be interested in your thoughts.
Scott, That is one approach. The definition of pornography is “material (as books or a photograph) that depicts erotic behavior and is intended to cause sexual excitement; the depiction of acts in a sensational manner so as to arouse a quick intense emotional reaction” so by its very definition the purpose of pornography is sexual arousal, not education or intimacy. So, yes, when that is the goal, I would LOVE to have the images and scenes used be more relationally and intimacy based, more like real life intimacy and arousal might look. I would love it if neither sex was… Read more »
Hi Janis, I’m glad your opinion is somewhat malleable. I notice that you often refer to studies. It would great if you could post some of the links. From my experience with research, they are rarely if ever unanimous on any subject. If they are it is cause for skepticism. To fully appreciate a study I need to evaluate the methodology. The social sciences do not have the best reputation when it comes to removing bias in their studies. I know you find porn offensive, and you’re entitled to that opinion and you are entitled to pass on your values… Read more »
“The Marquis de Sade existed long before internet porn.” An outlier. “Porn is a true free market.” Yep. In one documentary a porn enthusiast boasts with glee about how porn is the natural end result and pinacle of capitalism and is doing America proud. I totally agree that porn is a genuine reflection of “American values”. ” If masses of people are voting with their computer mouses, saying they like porn, does it not stand to reason that that might be a more accurate reflection of “normal” than what we think it is?” Fake boobs, fake penises, fake vaginas and… Read more »
Rational, what kind of porn do you watch? I didnt even knew these categories existed…..anyways, porn is quite natural, thanks to the sexual revolution and internet people are free to explore and try what they like. Porn make’s you free 😀
“Porn makes you free”
Really? Is that true? How do you know that’s true? Can you be certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is true?
Please watch what sort of “freedom” too much “choice” affords the human psyche;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO6XEQIsCoM
“rational” The point that I was trying to make is that “normal” is a very subjective term and people’s tenancy to keep the details of their sex life secretive makes establishing what normal is very difficult. “If porn followed my behavior I’d have no problem with it.” But it may be that your preferences are not normal. Perhaps porn follows other people’s perspective of “normal” and not yours. For someone who claims to be a “rational thinker” you seem to easily dismiss facts without providing any of your own. ““The Marquis de Sade existed long before internet porn.” An outlier.”… Read more »
Hi Janis, I’m glad your opinion is somewhat malleable. I notice that you often refer to studies. It would great if you could post some of the links. From my experience with research, they are rarely if ever unanimous on any subject. If they are it is cause for skepticism. To fully appreciate a study I need to evaluate the methodology. The social sciences do not have the best reputation when it comes to removing bias in their studies. I know you find porn offensive, and you’re entitled to that opinion and you are entitled to pass on your values… Read more »
Scott- I need to get off soon and head out into the real world but go ahead and start here: http://psi.sagepub.com/content/4/3/81.short This is a good synthesis of literature. There are many links at the boom of this abstract to other studies and you can go ahead and search google scholar for “effects of violent media on youth” or something like that and find it all yourself. There have been many longitudinal studies conducted at this point and they all show the same thing: it has an impact.
Gotta run
Scott: this summarizes a study on ED trends in men: http://www.prevention.com/sex/sex-relationships/ed-rates-rising-among-younger-men. The full study ran in a 2010 issue of ournal of Sexual Medicine- should be easy to find. Also see: http://www.fpcmtc.org/node/105 for a really interesting study and note that one of the few studies on ED in young men (never really needed before now) showed a 13% ED rate in men aged 13-29. That is MUCH higher than expected.
The high ED rates in younger men were reported to be related to alcohol, tobacco, and drug use. Tobacco smoking leads to “inflamed, clogged, and crippled arteries, regardless of which organ aka Atherosclerosis”
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/survival-of-the-firmest-erectile-dysfunction-and-death/
Thus it might not be the porn consumption part of the lifestyle, but other elements of the lifestyle that are more tightly coupled. Many of the neurotransmitters released by porn, are also released, or provided, by tobacco, alcohol and drug use. So you’d probably also find that these men are also more likely to be “risk junkies.”
Possibly, though that does not offer much reassurance – why create such ready environments that prey on vulnerabilities? Besides, this research is still young – there are many young men of which I am aware anecdotally (and grown men) who do struggle with porn related ED but who do not fit the risk junkie profile. Research in this area is new so stay tuned..
One should not discount the effect of circumcision. Removing a large area of sexually sensitive tissue has an effect. One cannot change the form of an organ without changing it’s function too. One of the areas that the social sciences historically struggles with it the temptation to accept a correlation as a cause.
http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2011/06/13/ije.dyr104.full
“One should not discount the effect of circumcision. ”
I’ve had sex with both natural and cut men, and believe men, I don’t discount it. There is a marked difference in the “rhythm” between the two because of the different angles at which cut and natural must position their hips in order.
Natural is more enjoyable. The angle and the rigorous “pounding” that cut men must employ in order to get a semblance of the pleasure that is easier felt by natural, intact penises, can be painful to the vagina.
Well, I never thought I’d see the day Rational, but I agree with you.
You two are pretty funny, you know? I am loving the discussion. Rational, I have only once been with a “natural” man in this way and simply cannot recall what I thought was different so this analysis is really interesting. My son is uncircumcised, however, and I have often wondered whether he will regret this or now. It sounds like it may be even better for him too!
Janis,
At least by leaving your son intact, he has the option of choosing how he wants his penis to look. His body, his choice. You’ll never have to explain why you had part of his penis cut off. If he really hates his foreskin (which I doubt) he can choose to have it removed – but it will be his choice.
Janis,
I wonder what your thoughts are about vibrator use by females and if there is any association with difficulty of some women to achieve orgasm. From what I understand, your theory is that porn makes men accustom to archiving orgasm through a method that is not with a real female and therefore makes them unable to achieve erection with a real female. In the same way, does a vibrator not teach a woman to become aroused and achive orgasm through “unnatural” methods?
Scott, Vibrators reduce sensitivity over time so constant use is not advised – particularly if one wants to also be able to orgasm from a partner’s touch. In this way, the relation you draw between porn and vibrators is similar. The difference is that vibrator use is not dependent on a billion dollar industry that exploits people and feeds women a steady diet of relationship distorting fantasy (though I assume some women use a vibrators while looking at porn; there is no association between introduction of the vibrator and porn – women are pretty good at using their imagination and… Read more »
“women are pretty good at using their imagination and vibrators makes it all go very fast).”
So, male masterbatory aids are immoral, female masterbatory aids are moral but should be used with caution?
You had said earlier that many girls get their sexual education by looking at porn. Do you feel that female porn users are less culpable than male porn users? I’d be curious about the proportion of porn users who are female.
“I wonder what your thoughts are about vibrator use by females and if there is any association with difficulty of some women to achieve orgasm.” If they are orgasming with a vibrator then there is no “difficulty” in achieving orgasm, is there? If a man is unable to bring a woman to orgasm, the “difficulty” lies with him, not her. When men are unable to bring their partners to orgasm they use the cop out, “she’s not orgasmic” or “she has difficulty orgasming”…..HOG WASH! Ask the woman and 9 times out of 10 she’ll say she has no “difficulty” orgasming… Read more »
“So, male masterbatory aids are immoral, female masterbatory aids are moral but should be used with caution? You had said earlier that many girls get their sexual education by looking at porn. Do you feel that female porn users are less culpable than male porn users? I’d be curious about the proportion of porn users who are female.” I am not making viewers individually culpable for the widespread and damaging availability of pornography. If donuts are sitting around people generally eat them. Can and should individuals exercise restraint? yes and yes, but I know that this is remarkably difficult in… Read more »
Janis,
I would agree that kids should have more information about how porn, like doughnuts should be used in moderation, if they choose to use it. It can be addicting and people need to make sure it does not interfere with living real life.
” I do know that penis size and performance issues do come up for men using porn”
I wonder how much. Those issues sure didn’t come up for one ex-partner I had who took a passive-aggressive dig at me and suggested I watch porn. I was like, “Dude, me watching large chocolate penises is not going to work in your favor, trust me”.
He shut his trap fast after that.
Yeah, you may be right. 🙂 I just know that this whole subject is so loaded for all of us – men and women alike. My partner has been pretty candid about the performance issues many of the men he knew had struggled with and it really enlightened me to some of the issues men face that I never think about at all.
“My partner has been pretty candid about the performance issues many of the men he knew had struggled with ”
Those performance issues were porn related?
He has said that he thinks that they often are. But he also says that teen boys worry about performance regardless of whether there are real performance issues – it is just a thing that men seem to think about, according to him, much more than I knew. For guys who have been using porn regularly or who are older, performance issues with real women often are tied to this and they find that they get their mojo back once they kick the habit, assuming they do.
“Since it is your position that porn leads to unrealistic expectations of sex, what would you think of promoting a more realistic type of porn. ”
Why the need to “promote” porn at all, of any type? Humans have managed to meet, mate and reproduce just fine for multi-thousands, if not millions, of years before porn.
And people are still managing to meet, mate and reproduce just fine. Last I checked most countries’ population is increasing and all those people are a product of people managing to meet, mate and reproduce. I, however, think that is a pretty low standard to aim by.
I am also curious about when you think porn first appeared since you’ve postulated that humanity (and I am going to be specieist enough to assume homo sapiens) have procreated for millions of years before porn existed.
The Chauvet Cave in france have art on them which has been dated as being from about 26,000 BC. Among the images are paintings of a human vagina and sexual acts. So, given that “porn” has been around in one form or another for at least 28,000 years, I think it would be difficult to say that porn has not coexisted with human mating for some time now.
Scott, I seriously doubt that men sat in front of those cave drawings and masturbated. Porn is a masturbation aide, not a depiction of human life and ritual. Those paintings had social and possibly religious meaning. While I know that porn is a religion for some folks, I certainly hope that is not what is left to find of us after we all go! At this rate, though, it may well be – imagine that!
So is it porn, the masterbation or both that you dislike. I know that the tantric teaching would have a man retain his sperm and deny himself orgasms. Do the same restrictions apply to female sexuality?
I don’t think the majority of society is against masterbation. My feel is that most people would consider masterbation a healthy expression of sexuality and, particularly in the young, a healthier way to vent sexual tension than having a sexual relationship before they are mature enough for it.
Your questions are addressed to Janis but I’ll chime in as well. “I know that the tantric teaching would have a man retain his sperm and deny himself orgasms. Do the same restrictions apply to female sexuality?” – No. The reason for this is that it is believe that men “lose energy” through the loss of semen whereas women do not lose energy through their ejaculation but rather in some instances become invigorated by it . There is also a practice by which the woman’s “juice” is drawn up into the man via his external urethral orifice. Who knows if… Read more »
From the reading I’ve recently done on tantric sex it appears that some practitioners do advise women to limit their orgasms as well. If you practice a version where women can orgasm and men cannot – well, that doesn’t seem like a lot of fun really. It seems more like a Femdom or cuckholding activity than mutually satisfying sex. Masterbation may be depleting of energy, but that can be a good thing. I’ve encountered quite a few angry people who would do better to go home and deplete themselves of energy for a while and hopefully come back a happier… Read more »
Re: masturbation, tantra & orgasm: All worthy of days of discussion but my two cents is this: masturbation is normal and healthy – particularly for younger people learning about their own bodies and preferences. It becomes damaging to a person when a) it is regularly used as away to cope with stress, emotional discomfort, and life in the way that one would use a drug – to anesthetize, b) when it becomes preferable to a living partner and real intimacy, c) when it cannot be accomplished without the use of pornography, d) when it becomes compulsive (e.g. performed even when… Read more »
So, is restraint from orgasm for females also encouraged?
It sounds like this might be just a version of edging. Where one is able to get to the edge of orgasm but not go over by controlling one’s self. I can extend things usually to a 3:1 ratio of her vs me. But I don’t know if I could ever really discontinue an engagement without finally going over the edge without being disappointed – and uncomfortable.
My point was that porn has been with us for a long time. Individuals, men or women, may have used them as porn, I’m sure you don’t claim to know, I certainly don’t, nor do the scientist who are studying the cave. The line between art, erotic art and porn is very subjective.
At this point “rational” will give us a sampling of the most extreme description of porn that no-one has ever scene. Once she is done we can get back to the discussion.
“I have seen you bring up the idea that the fault of the negative perception of male sexuality is the fault of porn on 3 different posts here.” And you keep referring to societal gender stereotypes. Face it. Media IS our society today. I would think you, a person who expected me to behind a computer all day yesterday in order to track your comments and then reply “right now damnit!” , of all people should understand that! Janis is teaching her son media literacy, that is, to question and deconstruct the stereotypes that society perpetrates on our collective consciousness… Read more »
I disagree with your basic premiss that media is society. It is reflective and influences our society, but they are not the same.
I wish we could elevate the level of discourse here to talk about ideas rather than personal insults and ad hominem attacks. Maybe look at these links and we can all have a better discussion.
http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html
http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog/2008/05/paul-grahams-disagreement-hierarchy/
“I wish we could elevate the level of discourse here to talk about ideas rather than personal insults and ad hominem attacks. ” Personal attacks? Ad hominem? I’ve gone through most of the comments here and don’t see either. You, on the other hand, made all kinds of assumptions about myself and Janis when you didn’t get replies to your comments in the exact time frame that you wanted them. You don’t seem to have any regard for that fact that we have other things to do than be at your online beck and call. Are you childless by any… Read more »
from Rational awhile ago: “Hii Janis! Yes its sometimes described like that but its also sometimes described that the masculine is the place of deep knowing and acceptance and the feminine is the activating force, or the active force. Maya itself is feminine, a female deity. She is the active element of this material phenomena, the one who gets the ball (heh) rolling and “creates” all these names and forms, vasanas, samskaras, karmas, etc. Scott, to answer your question YES, in all of the classical Indian traditions that I have been exposed to women and men are advised to view… Read more »
What is tool sex?
Not really familiar with the term. I suspect I know what it is, but I’ve never heard that term before, so I don’t know.
Thanks!
My own shorthand (sorry!) for using another for sexual gratification only w/o any real connection except a shared (or not so shared) desire to get off.
Actually – as a footnote to this. I saw a study a while ago that showed that when young men were showed sexy pictures of women they do not know when in an fMRI machine, the portion of their brain associated with tools (e.g. hammers, nails etc..) lit up (this was the source of my mental reference to “tool sex”). When a picture of their girlfriend showed up, an entirely different part of the brain lit up – one associated with relationships and social exchange. Current understanding suggests that this tendency is likely a mix of hardwiring and environment. It… Read more »
Ok. Thanks for that. I heard about that study. For my part, I don’t think it proves much. Question is, what do people not exposed to our society show in the machine when shown the same image. I was unaware about the picture of the girlfriend aspect of it. My question is, which phenomenon was seen first? Do images of women normally trigger the tool use part of the brain of males? Is that something we only see in our society or is it universal? What if it’s a universal across cultures? Then our media does nothing, or at least… Read more »
yes, I agree about the antiquity of the issues we discuss, but the “moderation in all things” advice that is equally ancient also applies here. I would say that we have lost the moderation side of things in a big way. We see the effects of this consciousness (“wow, if a little feels good, a lot must be that much better!”) in every part of our life – globally and locally (think environment, prescription drug use, food portions, car sizes , whatever.. we are living it out fully!). So, time will tell. Your questions about the study are good and… Read more »
Some of the posters don’t understand the perspective of people like John and myself. This posting from TGMP might help understand a bit of our perspective. John, I hope I haven’t overstepped by speaking a little bit on your behalf.
https://goodmenproject.com/international-mens-movement/imm-how-do-i-protect-my-son/
John and Scott and a few others who object to Janis’s points might do better to object to the way men and male sexuality are consistently portrayed in porn as well as our ever-increasing pornified mainstream and even alternative “media”. Janis is not assuming her son is a predator or perpetrator at heart, rather she’s assuming that he’s been exposed to countless media platforms that portray men and male sexuality as just that. Why? Because he has. We all have. And it is that inaccurate and unnatural portrayal of male sexuality that she wants her son to not feel he… Read more »
I absolutely agree that the “Dear daughter I hope you have awesome sex” article was great. I also note that of the 3 or 4 “letters to my son about sex” type articles TGMP have published none even came close to that one. They only perfunctory mentioned enjoying sex and the boy’s own consent.
” They only perfunctory mentioned enjoying sex and the boy’s own consent.” Because boys and men are still seen as the initiators of sex. That stereotype is played out over and over again in even benign mainstream films and TV. Like I mentioned as well, the “manosphere” which screams to high heaven if “male sexuality is shamed”, at the same time screams to high heaven about (female) “sluts” and parents who do not lock their daughters down. Now you tell me, if male sexuality is not shameful, then what on earth is there to “protect” daughters from? That they cannot,… Read more »
Because boys and men are still seen as the initiators of sex. That stereotype is played out over and over again in even benign mainstream films and TV. Yes, so why is there so many people here cheering for yet another letter which validates and solidify that stereotype? At best it treats the son as the exception to prove the rule. Now you tell me, if male sexuality is not shameful, then what on earth is there to “protect” daughters from? Considering that I wrote that I thought the “Dear daughter I hope you have awesome sex” article was great… Read more »
Nice work Tamen,
If we were to teach boys and girls the same lessons about sex, sexuality, relationships and consent they might have fewer misunderstandings and better relationships.
I agree with Abigail Rine’s point. Interestingly enough there are a lot of men, and the Manosphere is very vocal about this, that oppose “sensitivity training” or any kind of seminar in school or the work place, put in place to inform students or employees what exactly constitutes “sexual harrassement” and “sexual assualt”. As a person who lives and works in a co-ed environment, it is in my best interest to know what words or actions could potentially cost me my job or even worse. Just as I continue to be bemused by the lack of men speaking out against… Read more »
In answer to your bemusement, a lot of men have reached their tolerance for being told that their behaviour is wrong.
“a lot of men have reached their tolerance for being told that their behaviour is wrong.”
And the law books give a flying fig about this…….. how?
What if their behavior is wrong? Is is possible that they, as human beings, are wonderful, loving, beautiful people who may have to work a little harder than women by virtue of their gender on regulating impulsive behaviors? Discipline is not a bad thing in life, in any way, and I do not see any problem with asking individuals to exercise it when not using it leads to harm. Other than imposing on men’s rights to objectify and, in sexual harassment cases, act this out on someone else, are there ways in which you feel like men are systematically invaded… Read more »
This is about as close as you have come to confessing your true feelings about males and females – in particular the inherent virtue of each gender.
“…there is no more beautiful place than a woman’s heart, honest.”
It’s a pity you do not view a man’s heart as equally beautiful.
Honestly, I am so sorry if this offends you. In the tantric traditions which relate to sex and the relationship between feminine and masculine (these emerged in India around 1100AD it is estimated, though exact dates vary), the feminine energy is very much a heart energy – it is a creative force which is potentiated by the masculine. In tantra, men achieve their highest sexual and spiritual states through serving the feminine – whether this be a female partner or the feminine energy in themselves or another man. The masculine is very much a driving outward force and the power,… Read more »
I think I understand that when you say “feminine heart” you do not mean, necessarily the heart of a female, but rather the feminine aspect of the heart of anyone – in this religious perspective. With this in mind, your comment is not offensive. However, without the understanding of how you meant the comment it did, at first blush, look very sexist. I cannot say that a doctrine that believes “men achieve their highest sexual and spiritual states through serving the feminine – whether this be a female partner or the feminine energy in themselves or another man.” sounds particularly… Read more »
” In my own experience I see this – the feminine in all of us is the yielding place, the place of deep knowing and acceptance. The masculine is an activating force.” Hi Janis! Yes its sometimes described like that but its also sometimes described that the masculine is the place of deep knowing and acceptance and the feminine is the activating force, or the active force. Maya itself is feminine, a female deity. She is the active element of this material phenomena, the one who gets the ball (heh) rolling and “creates” all these names and forms, vasanas, samskaras,… Read more »
Mind you, you did say “a woman’s heart” not the feminine heart.
Well. my understanding is that most of such opposition is not against the “sensitivity training” per se, but rather against the threshold of what is considered sexual harassment and not least against the unbalanced view where women are the victims of said harassment and men are the perpetrators.
Agreed!
“Well. my understanding is that most of such opposition is not against the “sensitivity training” per se, but rather against the threshold of what is considered sexual harassment ”
Sorry honey but the law doesn’t care if they are opposed to the threshold of what is legally considered sexual harrasement or not. Therefore it is in the best interest of men to learn what they could potentially lose their jobs or be dragged to court/jail over.
Sorry honey but I’ve treated you with respect and expected the same in return. Please refrain from patronizing me. the law doesn’t care if they are opposed to the threshold of what is legally considered sexual harrasement or not. Therefore it is in the best interest of men to learn what they could potentially lose their jobs or be dragged to court/jail over. Yes, it is in everyone’s best interest to know the law/rules that apply. I pointed out that depicting the opposition against sensitivity training as stupid in the sense that doing so leaves one ignorant of law/rules and… Read more »
“But if it is important for you to believe that any opposition against sensitivity training is about people being stupid and wanting to be ignorant and at legal/litigation risk” – Its about the Manosphere creating false flags. ” and not the more rational reason of being in opposition to the actual laws/rules and/or their content.” – The best way to “voice opposition” is to show up to the trainings and voice them. “My beef with sensitivity training (corporate) and anti-sexual harassment/violence training (school, colleges) is that they still too often is gender biased. ” – The trainings and laws are… Read more »
– The trainings and laws are gender neutral. Am I to assume that you know them all – laws and training courses? The law is not gender neutral in India for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sexual_Harassment_of_Women_at_Workplace_%28Prevention,_Prohibition_and_Redressal%29_Act,_2013 The laws are also not gender neutral in China (Law on Women’s Right Protection). A lot of the training courses uses dramatic training videos. For a training course to be gender neutral I’d expect them to have a close to equal number of scenarios depicting female and male perpetrator and also female and male victim. Yet the ones I’ve taken mirrors this example: http://www.kantola.com/Sexual-Harassment-A-Commonsense-Approach-Employee-Version-PDPD-1-K.aspx Notice something in… Read more »
Tamen, “Am I to assume that you know them all – laws and training courses? The law is not gender neutral in India for example: ” India and China? We are talking about “sensitivity trainings” in colleges and work places in the West and USA in particular since this is an “American” blog. They don’t even have “sensitivity trainings” in Indian colleges and work places and I know this because…. I’M INDIAN. And since you bring it up, India is one of the absolute worst places on the plane to be born female. The fact that there are “MRAs” in… Read more »
Rational, naturally India have MRA’s. Its not only bad for women, over there, but also for men. But we tend to focus only at out own, ignoring or forgetting what happens to other people. So you lament,rightfully, the condition of women, but what about the condition of men? or in your eye they are all rapists?
Mr Super Type A Personality said, “So you lament,rightfully, the condition of women, but what about the condition of men?”
What about the “condition” of Indian men? What do they face that Indian women also do not face? On top of facing what Indian men have to face, Indian women face more, based on their gender. So Indian women get hit with the double whammy, while Indian men only face the problems that are generally faced by ALL Indians.
There is absolutely NO NEED for a “mens’ rights movement” in India.
” Mr Super Type A Personality said, “So you lament,rightfully, the condition of women, but what about the condition of men?” What about the “condition” of Indian men? What do they face that Indian women also do not face? On top of facing what Indian men have to face, Indian women face more, based on their gender.” And how can you say that? based on the trope, women suffer more? As far as I can see, India is a complex society with strong conservative elements, based on the specialization of the sexes. Therefore I cant claim women or men suffer… Read more »
Me: ”So Indian women get hit with the double whammy, while Indian men only face the problems that are generally faced by ALL Indians.”
Mr. Not-my-Type: “And you know this…how?”
Ummm, I’m Indian. I grew up there. I divide my current time between India and the US.
” Me: ”So Indian women get hit with the double whammy, while Indian men only face the problems that are generally faced by ALL Indians.” ” Nope, yes both men and women are faced with the general issues faced by all indians, but men are also going to deal with the issues usually faced by all men, in the unique Indian cultural enviroment. I know that for a woman, a man seems to be invulnerable and strong. But thats just a illusion. Men have their own issues, and just this conversation shows that you (woman) dont have a clue on… Read more »
“Sorry honey”
And with that, the last shred of respectability for you has flown out the window. You are apparently just a hypocritical troll.
Janis, do you still feel you are in allegiance with “rational thinker”.
Scott, I claim no allegiance – only to my highest knowing. I think Rational and I share perspectives because we share experiences here; experiences as a woman that have been painful to live through and to witness in those we love. In this way gender binds us as it does you with a few others in this discussion. My goal is not to win friends or allies, but to learn and, maybe, impart some of my own heart’s voice in a way that you and others might hear. Rational knows this whisper already I think, so it is easy. Stay… Read more »
It is difficult to remain open when “rational” seems bent on an insincere, belittling approach to those who disagree with her. I try to hear the message behind the hate, but it’s difficult. I appreciate the few glimmers of compassionate communication that do occur.
In the whole gender debate, resolution can never come from a place of anger. It can only happen when both sides are willing to put down accusations and approach one another with compassion, empathy and acceptance.
I wonder if you might call out her sexist and demeaning treatment of others. We are often urged not to be a bystander in the face of abuse.
-“Be the change you want to see in the world.”
hello Rational, I have seen you bring up the idea that the fault of the negative perception of male sexuality is the fault of porn on 3 different posts here. I understand what you are saying and I have responded to you. You have not replied to my suggestions however. So, I don’t think you need to keep repeating yourself if you are not willing to participate in a dialog. I hear what you are saying with the contradiction of some fathers who still view their daughter’s virginity as somehow their possession to guard and I also condemn that sort… Read more »
“You have not replied to my suggestions however. ” I’m sorry, Scott. You’ll have to forgive for not prioritizing responding to a stranger’s comments on a blog over other aspects of my life such as spending time with family and friends, working, going out to exercise and enjoy nature, cooking, eating, cleaning and oh, about a hundred other things that I do in any given day. Perhaps I’m wrong in not putting my life and family on hold so that I can wait around in front of my computer screen until my comments get through moderation, then waiting to see… Read more »
Let me know when your ready to come down off the cross and have a discussion.
“I have seen you bring up the idea that the fault of the negative perception of male sexuality is the fault of porn on 3 different posts here.”
I’ve addressed this in a few new comments today but scroll to the bottom, I will address it again.
Hi Scott
Please don’t speak for others than your self. John has his own voice. And Archy is a grown man, strong enough intellectually to defend his own view when he feels like it.
Hi Iben,
If John has a problem for me implying he might feel the same way I do then I will apologize to him, not you. As you said, John has his own voice and dose not need you to speak for him.
Hi Rational Thinker
You write :
✺”I find it really telling that these commenters are taking issue with Janis’s letter but not saying a word about the way men and male sexual expression are portrayed in pornography and other increasingly pornified media.”
Where is all the “outrage” from men on a collective societal level at the way men are portrayed in porn?✺
Well said.
I’m sorry if my previous comment seems to dismiss what the writer said on this article, its not my intention. As I clearly stated in my previous comment, I’m not in any way disagree with points on her letter. I agree most rapists are men. I agree porn have bad effects on male sexuality. But in my opinion, the real culprit on why many men have trouble with how they express their sexuality is not porn, but how as a society we view gendered role on men and women about sex. For example, we are taught that men bodies have… Read more »
Hi John You write : ✺”have not any sexual value ( not beautiful and sexy ) and just a tool, while women bodies are work of art. Who taught this, porn? No, its parents and teachers. I remember hearing my mother saying with disgusted face “Ugghhh, who want to look at men bodies? eww”. My teacher ( female ) saying in class that women are made naturaly more beautiful than men bodies”✺ When mother pass on attitudes like that it is child abuse,the way I see it. And the teacher has problems or is stupid….. But take a look at… Read more »
John, First, I have to tell you that I am profoundly sorry that you were ever told by anyone, but particularly you mother, that your (a man’s) body is not beautiful. That is simply untrue. Men’s bodies are profoundly beautiful and I am personally very glad that men are here; I cannot imagine life without the men I love. Second, thank you and the others for broadening my idea of what I need to communicate to my son. I have been so personally struck by the profoundly damaging (yes, my opinion – I own it) exploitation of both men and… Read more »
I don’t understand the opposition to your letter. You are teaching him media literacy. To question and deconstruct everything porn and our increasingly pornified mainstream media wants to tell him is “masculine”.
The fact is that the media in the form of radio, TV, films, internet, i-pads, i-phones and every other gadget out there is in American kids lives 24/7 now. It is invasive.
The commenters here who are telling you to teach him about “society’s stereotyped gender roles” don’t seem to get that the above media IS the society now and that is exactly what you are teaching about.
Thanks for the support, Rational Thinker. I have a feeling that people struggling with this letter are really struggling with an inner dialogue about this stuff. I have learned that porn and masculinity and women and sexuality and relationship seems to bring up our individual and collective stuff like nothing else. This seems trickier territory for men in my experience because, I think, porn and the ubiquitous pornification of media really tailors to one element of masculine wiring. It’s like just having way too much chocolate around – it tastes wicked good but, let’s face it, it really needs to… Read more »
I, and I suspect others, just don’t believe that porn is the cause of negative view of males and male sexuality. I think it has more to do with groups that fear monger. There doesn’t seem to be any room for discussion of this point on your behalf. Just as we don’t believe movies are real, I fail to understand why you think people would be so much more gullible when it comes to movies about sex. Also, there is all types of porn out there catering to any tastes. If you like larger people, there’s porn for that, if… Read more »
” Also, there is all types of porn out there catering to any tastes. If you like larger people, there’s porn for that, if you like gentle romantic porn, you can find that, heck if you like to dress up as a furry animal and have fun there is porn for that.” Who cares? I propose an opt in option for internet consumers when they purchase their internet service. They can choose to opt in to porn and pay for that service as well. People like myself should not have to be subject to it when we are not searching… Read more »
I don’t think you understand how the intent works, it’s not like cable tv packages.
I recently read where ideas are being bantied around about an “opt in” option for internet porn in the UK. There are some details and technicalities to be worked out of course, but if even an incomplete program can prevent me from being exposed to the inside of a**holes when I have not search for that, I’m all the hell for it!
Hi Rational Thinker
We all know it is discussed in Island. I doubt that politicians and academics there are lacking in knowledge about how it can or can not be done.
It is discussed in the UK . The Guardian has written a lot about it lately.
I do not rember the details. If I rember correctly politicians work to give families this option when they buy cabled Internet access.
I don’t know if it possible also for us that use mobile Internet.
Hi Rational Thinker
Below I mentioned how they discuss porn filters in UK.
Here is one recent article from The Guardian discussing this porn filter.
Quote:
“Nevertheless, the ISPs are feeling the heat from a government desperate to be seen to be “doing something” about porn. The biggest four companies (BT, Sky, TalkTalk and Virgin Media) have now “voluntarily” agreed to adopt network-level filtering and will present customers with the option of whether or not to enable it and which “categories” it should block”
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/jun/30/internet-porn-panic-ethical-minefield
Filters are not the same as subscriptions to tv packages. Filters have been around for decades.
People who do not want to consume the product of porn should not have to pay in order to not consume that product. Consumers who want the product should pay for the product.
“I, and I suspect others, just don’t believe that porn is the cause of negative view of males and male sexuality.”
Its not the root cause.
The root cause goes far beyond porn, far back into antiquity.
That root cause is Testosterone.
Well thanks for clearing that up. You seem to feel that 1/2 of the population of the world is somehow evil. But, just so you know, women have testosterone too.
Scott – I do not hear Rational saying that men are evil, only that a chemical we all have and and some men in high doses, has consequences that transcend their lives only. The porn industry has larger revenues than Microsoft, Google, Amazon, eBay, Yahoo, Apple and Netflix combined. 2006 Worldwide Pornography Revenues ballooned to $97.06 billion – this is an industry designed to cater to the drives that emerge from testosterone, not all of which are healthy (think sexual slavery and child porn) so there are reasons to be thoughtful about this. It is not an indictment, just a… Read more »
Right, so the main chemical responsible for masculinity is not to be trusted. If I were to say estrogen is not to be trusted because of the destabilizing effect it has on a person’s emotional state would you support that or call it misogynistic?
The effect of estrogen on emotional fragility can be seen by monthly alterations in behaviour and in post partium depression, both of which are associated with variations in estrogen levels.
“Right, so the main chemical responsible for masculinity is not to be trusted. If I were to say estrogen is not to be trusted because of the destabilizing effect it has on a person’s emotional state would you support that or call it misogynistic? The effect of estrogen on emotional fragility can be seen by monthly alterations in behaviour and in post partium depression, both of which are associated with variations in estrogen levels.” – Why should we place our “trust” in hormones at all? We are humans with highly developed brains and a highly developed nervous system capable of… Read more »
“Alternatively, I have it all wrong and am just another feminist downer showing up to rain on the porn parade!” Janis, I never said you are wrong and your article is a feminist propaganda. (In fact I consider myself feminist also right? ) I agree that porn is bad, but in my opinion the problem of male sexuality is deeper than that, and porn is just a surface of it. I didn’t even said all you wrote is wrong, in fact I consider it all truth, but in my opinion we have to teach our sons in a different way… Read more »
” I agree that porn is bad, but in my opinion the problem of male sexuality is deeper than that”
I agree. Male sexuality gets a bad rap because of Testosterone.
Yet ironically enough Manosphere sites always write about how to “raise T levels”. If T is such a problem, why raise it?
why about T? some of the best people in this world had and have T so the hormone is not a problem. Instead a egocentric culture who is all about me me me and me is to blame. Good manners and more altruism is needed. Rather all this mumbo djambo about T.
“what about T? some of the best people in this world had and have T so the hormone is not a problem”
I know. I also have it 😉
“Instead a egocentric culture who is all about me me me and me is to blame. Good manners and more altruism is needed. Rather all this mumbo djambo about T.”
You can research the effects that very high T levels have on “good manners and altruism”.
Im aware on the effects of high T but this is not a excuse to bioengineering. T are just fine, there is nothing wrong with it but lack of good manners and respect is the key issues and their are cultural. And you dont need high T levels to engage in destructive behaviours.
Hi John,
No offense at all – the dialogue is great and I am grateful for the insights it is offering me on what it feels like to be a man here. It appears to feel belting or negating for some and I thank you for raising this. What I really want is collective caring and respect – for self and others. I feel like we are careening off the edge of a cliff in this regard all over the place and dominant messages about sexuality is just one area.
Thanks for sharing all of your ideas.
simply because people disagree doesent mean they dont get it. Rational. It means they disagree with her about the points she states. Some claim that porn is the root of the problem, others claims that there is more into it. So said this, I dont understand the why somebody has to cristallize themselves into some positions? I do agree with the others that there is more to the story, and this is hard to deny. Beside the users who oppose Janie, are pretty much clear of the why, so I suggest you to be a better reader, and who knows… Read more »
Hi Janis, ). There are 20 year old boys on the increasing number of porn addiction recovery sites sharing their confusion about real sex and this dismay that at 20 years old they cannot achieve an erection to a real person and, in many cases, even to their favorite porn (which gets harder core over time and often ends up with forays into paid sex). I suppose that this has all been coming to some degree, the natural byproduct of a really imbalanced collective relationship with our own sexuality (think “sin” here), but I really struggle with knowing how to… Read more »
“And giving each other oral pleasure was usually referred to as “advanced sex”… Yes, I remember when oral sex was considered something even more intimate than vaginal intercourse, as well as a sort of “treat” from time to time for your spouse/partner. Now teen boys are texting their classmates during school for blow jobs out back, anal sex is considered “normal” for heterosexuals (despite the longterm medical complications of it), “facials” are no longer something women go to the beauty parlor for, and if a young woman dare to not wax, shave or somehow get rid of her pubic hair,… Read more »
Hi Rational Thinker, You’ll have to forgive for not prioritizing responding to a stranger’s comments on a blog over other aspects of my life such as spending time with family and friends, working, going out to exercise and enjoy nature, cooking, eating, cleaning and oh, about a hundred other things that I do in any given day. Perhaps I’m wrong in not putting my life and family on hold so that I can wait around in front of my computer screen until my comments get through moderation, then waiting to see who responds after that, and then responding. Perhaps that… Read more »
” A 14 year old girl learning to self pleasure to rape videos and PornMD anal probe videos is simply not a healthy expression of human sexuality no matter how you slice”
It sure as hell ain’t. But you see. If they start ’em young, by the time they’re 19 and ready to “leave home” they’ll be all set to seek out a (male of course) porn producer. That’s the industry’s hope, anyway.
And dare I ask, what is Porn”MD”?
PornMD is the website my friend’s 14 daughter visited a few weeks ago to check out an “forced anal probe” video. She also seems to like a site featuring something called “Hanai rape” or some such thing. Can a 14 year old girl really know what she prefers?? I think she, like most people, will go where she gets the biggest dopamine hit and for her it seems to be these sorts of scenes. I have never seen either, but can imagine that PornMD is porn featuring medical personnel, instruments, settings etc. Really unsettling to me.
Wow so much here. Yes, we can have filters at the country level – the UK s a great example of this. John, yes, I agree that the issues I raised in my letter to my son were not the only important messages. it is just where I chose to start and I am sure this is because I DO feel profoundly affected by the direction our lusts have taken us and the effects I feel like it is having on relationship and healthy adolescent development. The points you raised in your letter are awesome and I will be mindful… Read more »
WOW!! Are you really suggesting internet filters on a country wide level? That would put us on par with countries like China and some radical muslim countries. If that’s where your train of thought is heading, please stop the train as I want to get off! Secondly, you have quoted lots and lots of studies but have yet to provide a link to any of them. If there really is a skyrocketing rate of young men seeking treatment for ED let’s look at the evidence. Let’s consider the confounding factors and the research methodology. Anecdotal evidence is the weakest form… Read more »
“Are you really suggesting internet filters on a country wide level? ”
For porn, why not?
As far as it goes now people have to pay to block it. That makes zero sense. Paying to *not* get a service? Hello!? Those who WANT the service can pay for it.
Agreed – why should porn be free and widely available? It never was before the Internet. It should take some effort and money to secure – make you think about how much you really want it first. Indeed, I wonder why it is so free and widely available in a culture in which everything that can be sold is. Freebies always come with a cost or for a purpose. I will admit to feeling at times like mass availability of porn and infusion of the porn worldview everything is a little like Coke giving out samples, renaming, rebranding and slipping… Read more »
There is nothing anyone could ever say to change your mind on the topic is there.
Scott, “There is nothing anyone could ever say to change your mind on the topic is there.”
Some people have clearly defined values.
I know that’s not popular in today’s ooey-googy-feel-good-everyone-is-a-special-snowflake-I’m-ok-you’re-ok post-modern culture where how someone “feels” about something is the only arbiter of truth.
I’m just not sure why you engage in debate then. Clearly, you are not open to new ideas, you are fixated on your own perspective.
Buddhism teaches compassion toward all sentient beings. Your actions on in this debate do not seem to be in line with this goal.
“Buddhism teaches compassion toward all sentient beings. Your actions on in this debate do not seem to be in line with this goal.” Scott, you interpret “compassion” as being “malleable” to any and every idea or behavior, including unethical ones. Its a common misunderstanding that post-modern Western people have, hold onto and then try to map onto their new agey forms of Buddhism, Yoga, whatever Eastern practice fits their fancy at any given time. Compassion is actually doing what one can to end the suffering of those within one’s sphere of influence. This might have to take the form of… Read more »
Compassion does not involve the belittling, insulting, vitriolic speech you have engaged in. Tell me, how does calling someone “honey” in a condescending way constitute compassion? Your actions smack of cultural imperialism. Just because someone disagrees with you dose not mean they are wrong!
Firstly, the internet does not bring content to you. The internet simply allows you to seek out the content of others. Individuals pay for access to the internet, not to fund each individual website. There are some programs that try to make their content more easily found which advertisers use to promote their product. This is likely why porn content comes up when you search unrelated items. As an analogy, think of the internet as a street. You pay for access to the street. The shops that set up along the street (websites) are not paid by your access fee.… Read more »
“Firstly, the internet does not bring content to you. ”
Scott, I already gave you a few examples of how indeed the internet “brought” porn “content” to me, and one example was when I was sitting surrounded by kids.
Not links to porn, but porn itself. I believe I provided you with only 2 examples but I have had this experience dozens of times over the past decade.
” I have had this experience dozens of times over the past decade.” So, on average 4 times a years? Hardly seems like an epidemic. Sounds like your more likely to encounter a shockingly explicit sex act on the street than on the internet. There are programs advertisers use to bring content to your computer, this is not the internet itself. There are also programs you can use to defeat the programs advertisers use. Yes it’s not fair you have to pay for them, but it’s the same story with computer viruses. If you are waiting for life to become… Read more »
” Sounds like your more likely to encounter a shockingly explicit sex act on the street than on the internet. ”
Really? Have you ever encoutnered a “shockingly explicit sex act” on the street? I haven’t.
Where did you encounter these acts?
If you look up Voodoo hosiery you will find some of their billboard ads that they have placed in the general public domain. http://www.womenagainstmen.com/advertising/advertising-standards-board-response-on-voodoo-complaint.html
I wonder if you have some sort of computer virus, because I do not experience they type of porn you describe being sent to my computer.
Hi Janis
Dr. Brandy Engler has written many good article on GMP. She is a sexologist. I would said that makes her well qualified to speak about ED.
She also writes about porn in her book The Men On My Couch. An interesting book.
http://yourbrainonporn.com/erectile-dysfunction-increases-among-young-men-2013
EU, The European Union also discussed porn and regulation just like Island discussed it.
I have looked at summerhouses in Island. 🙂
Iben, thanks for this link. I like the YBOP site – there is a lot of important info coming out of there and the TED talk is one I showed my son. Wow, wouldn’t it be a blessing to live in a place where porn is unusual and a once in awhile thing? I would so love this; maybe all of the teen girls I know who talk about having a life plan that includes a brief stripping phase (and dressing like it in the meantime) would look for a more uplifting summer job..
” I would so love this; maybe all of the teen girls I know who talk about having a life plan that includes a brief stripping phase”
Seriously?!
Or were you being sarcastic or facetious?
Serious, Scott. My daughter recently shared that her best friend wanted to be a stripper for awhile in college. I am not at all surprised. When “Secret Confessions of a Call Girl” is the hot teen show, girls and boys are becoming enamored with this lifestyle. You laugh but wait till you have kids. With google glass and holographic computers coming soon, your kids, if you have them, will probably be using apps to virtually undress the girl in front of them in line and holograms to beam in naked chicks to their bedrooms. Good luck – I am SO… Read more »
“Even women would like to see women more than men. Thats are the usual argument from men about women objectification, for example the recent “Blurred Lines” video by Robin Thicke. Many men dont understand why objectification of women is bad, because they think its normal to see women bodies naked while men are clothed, because women bodies are beautiful while men bodies are ugly ( and no one, including straight women, want to see it ). ” Oh puh-lese. You seriously think “Blurred Lines” had naked women dancing around fully clothed men because that is “what women want”? Come on.… Read more »
Okay, I am seriously going to have to retract my line to my son about there being nothing I have not seen – I have no idea who this guy is, what you are talking about and I only barely recognize some of the more advanced “techniques” you have mentioned in other posts, Rational. I think I am really old fashioned and out of the current loop here – thank the Goddess!
Its not what I think, but what I believe many others think. Our society think naked men are offensive & disgusting while naked women are normal, because our society see they are naturally the beautiful one. Thats why they called the fairer sex. Dont believe me? Just ask any female friend you know, who have more beautiful bodies, men or women, most of them would answer female, even though they said they attracted to men sexually.
“ust ask any female friend you know, who have more beautiful bodies, men or women, most of them would answer female, even though they said they attracted to men sexually.” It may be that in this culture a greater percentage of women than men have fit, attractive bodies. Most men in the US are not sexually objectified and lets face it – most men in the US don’t have sexy bodies. However, there are men in the US who do have sexy bodies and THOSE are the men we women enjoy seeing shirtless on the beach. As far as nudity… Read more »
“But the catch here is, women want to see HOT male bodies, not average ones.”
If someone were to say that guys want to see HOT female bodies, not average ones, I’m sure you would loose your mind replying with angry comments. But you seem blind to your own double standard.
“If someone were to say that guys want to see HOT female bodies, not average ones, I’m sure you would loose your mind replying with angry comments. But you seem blind to your own double standard.”
I have no double standard. You continue to make all sorts of hyberbolic assumptions about me.
And the reasons you make those hyberbolic assumptions is because you spouting off rhetoric from you Manosphere script.