Where are the male voices debating contemporary sexuality? No, really, where are they?
I read a very interesting BBC article recently. The author, Sarah Dunant, spends some time outlining her own relationship to the ongoing debate about the role of sex in human experience and in society, and recapping the current state of play in that debate. Then she closes by raising a frank and difficult question, one that needs to be asked.
Where are the heavy-weight male voices debating contemporary sexuality? It’s difficult – getting men to talk honestly about sex. Not the nudge-nudge in the pub, or the throw-away gags of comedians, but serious questioning.
We accept that in the aftermath of feminism growing up male can be hard: but where are the big public conversations about men’s sexuality. The impact of pornography. Has far has our desire changed theirs? Is their line between what is and is not acceptable different from ours?
Such admissions will not necessarily be politically correct. Sex often isn’t. It doesn’t help that when men do open their mouths on the larger stage they are firmly shot down. Both George Galloway and our now ex-Justice Secretary Ken Clarke might have been ill advised in their remarks about sexual behaviour and the law, but like it or not they thought something needed saying, only to be met by a storm of female outrage that effectively stifled all debate.
Yes, we have a long way to go. But we can’t do it without the views of men.
This is a serious matter Ms. Dunant has touched on, and one that needs to be part of the public discourse. Men’s voices aren’t part of the public conversation about the function of sex and desire among us all.
Now, at this point traditional feminist thinking splutters “Hang on a second, men’s voices are all we hear about sex! The male gaze is so prevalent that women’s conformance to it is our main source of human value. Porn is manufactured in vast, immeasurable quantities, almost all of it aimed at male desires. We know about the male experience of sexual desire because we’re constantly told that everything in society has to serve it, from the public appearance of every woman alive to damn near every commercial aired.”
Problem is, while all of that isn’t exactly untrue, it also doesn’t have anything to do with authentic male desire. It’s a description of an imaginary average of male desire, a lowest common denominator that arises from conventional wisdom and social enforcement rather than from anyone’s pants. And for goodness’ sake, if we’re going to be talking about sexual desire, we need to be paying attention to what’s arising in real people’s pants, not what we think is supposed to be. (Why no, if you were wondering, we will not be getting through this article without a boner joke.)
The conventional-wisdom narrative about sex holds that men all want no-strings blowjobs from skinny, big-titted 20-year-old blondes, and women all want meaningful cuddles and commitment from rich doctors with good tans. Both sides of this assumption are utter, utter horseshit. They reduce the richness of human experience and human desire down to two stupid cartoons that almost nobody actually likes, but too many people go along with because they assume everyone else is.
The good news is that sex-positive feminism has made it possible for more and more women to speak out against this tired old nonsense, to proudly own their own sexuality and whatever it entails. Yeah, there’s still a lot of slut-shaming, social enforcement, and stereotyping that goes on, but genuine progress has been made.
Men, however, remain largely trapped by the social narrative. The very pervasiveness of the conventional-wisdom model makes it hard to openly speak out against. If every ad you see assumes that every man wants the same boring thing, you start to think that maybe they know something you don’t. I’ve seen men pretend to want casual sex because they thought they were supposed to, date skinny girls when they liked bigger girls because they were afraid of social enforcement, spend years lying about aspects of their sexuality that they thought made them appear weak or unmanly. And if you sit down and think about it, I bet you have too.
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We do need more male voices to speak up about the realities of male sexuality and desire. Not the stereotypes or the assumptions or the easy jokes, the on-the-ground truth about the complexity and diversity of our loves and lusts. Here at the Good Men Project, we’re trying to get some of that dialogue started, but it’s kind of like push-starting a car uphill. The gravity in this metaphor is the endless drag of enculturated assumptions, hegemonic masculinity, all the ideas that there is a way men are supposed to be, and if you do not resemble that imaginary norm you are Doing It Wrong.
There is a name for this phenomenon; it’s called pluralistic ignorance. It’s when most people don’t like something, but they assume everyone else likes it, so they don’t speak up out of fear or good manners or awkwardness. It’s how a thousand people go along with a plan they all know is stupid, each one thinking they’re the only person doubting it. And it’s how we all just accept the artificial, manufactured, oddly specific and sharply limited stereotype of male sexuality as “normal”.
Get a bunch of guys together and ask whether they prefer the fake women on the magazine covers or real, flawed, human women, and you’ll hear a chorus of affirmation in favor of the real. Real women (and I do not mean anything prescriptivist by that, I literally mean “not imaginary”) are vulnerable, are relatable, come in a rich array of colors and textures and shapes and sounds and smells that is far more interesting to most straight men than the umpteenth iteration of the same Photoshopped swimsuit model, so sanded down and airbrushed she hasn’t even got pores.
It makes sense. Those artificial images are as sexy as plastic. They are a product of industrial and media culture, the consensus result of meetings of marketing committees, carefully designed to meet expectations without ever challenging assumptions, thereby gaining optimum brand positioning to maximize market share with key demographics and I ask you seriously, who wants to stick their dick in that?
The answer, sadly, is some people do. There is a minority of men, a depressingly vocal minority, that fundamentally does think of women as a product manufactured for their consumption. And they tend not to be shy about making their opinions known, especially to women who they consider inferior product.
The same goes, in slightly different form, for the accepted generic idea of male sexual desire. Entirely penis-based, entirely shallow, entirely about penetration and control… you know the routine. Again, most men’s actual desires are infinitely more complex, more nuanced, more silly and vulnerable and far, far more freaky. But the chorus of assumed normalcy is so vocal, and the social sanction for appearing weird or weak so great, that most men don’t speak up, and just try to do what they think they’re supposed to. And so everyone has, on average, rather less fun sex than they otherwise might.
We can’t keep this up. We can’t continue ignoring the phenomenal diversity and depth of men’s sexualities. It is literally killing people. And it’s just so damn silly to start with. It’s hard to speak up about such a deeply personal subject, but there is one thing each and every one of us can do: stop pretending that “normal” is normal.
I am hereby letting all the men reading this know that they are not the only one whose sexual desires deviate from the ones in the beer commercials and the sitcom jokes. It is not just you. It’s almost all of us. If you feel, as most do, that you somehow need permission to stop participating in this false consensus, consider it given. You can stop pretending to be normal, because there is no such damn thing and there never was.
It ain’t much, but Sarah Dunant is right. We’ve got to start somewhere.
Photo— istolethetv/Flickr
What refreshing words to read and digest. I couldn’t agree more. Men and women have been shamed and ridiculed into dumbing down our deepest desires to be pigeon holed into the tightest, narrowest most restrictive models of our sexual possibilities.
I look forward to reading more!
@David Ede May: While I’m not gay, looking from the outside in, I think you are right, in general, that gay men are in a different universe when it comes to comfort and accessibility in discussing sex. The biggest issue that prevents straight folks from getting there is dishonesty, fueled by many different cultural sources, that prevent men and women from really getting what they want and need. I must say that gay men like Dan Savage, who, I think, goes out of his way to condemn straight men while patronizing straight women, don’t help. For instance, he will will… Read more »
As a gay man, I read this conversation and wonder: How do men and women ever manage to get together, to connect in any meaningful way? It appears that the space between the poles is fraught with more dangers than rewards for those seeking the Exotic Other. And yet you go on, ever hoping to love and be loved. Be that as it may: I think gay men have an advantage. We are free to discuss sex with each other, conversation often as enthusiastic as the sex acts being reported. I’ve written a great deal, from a layman’s perspective, about… Read more »
I think that there is a lot about feminism that encourages the discourse of women as exotic others. In this world as I understand it if a gay man said to another gay man in a more or less round about way can I touch your penis the other gay man might have a range of feelings and responses but deeply offended and objectified would probably not be one of them unless perhaps if there was a large age difference. If a man of equal age were to be so bold as to ask a woman of he can touch… Read more »
…hmmm, let me try this again.@John Gottman:In a perfect world where the myth that women are naturally more empathic is actually true, JP’s advice to you is gold.My experience, the experiences of other men, the honesty of some women and science has taught me that THAT world isn’t the one we live in. It is a fact that empathy and sensitivity are learned behaviors and are no more guaranteed through birth right than the ability be an expert in any field.Yes, one might have some innate talent or predisposition but it must be developed through focused hard work to come… Read more »
Many female here talk about their insecurity, especially about their body image. I want to share my insecurity too as a guy. I never buy crap that told men always worry about their penis size. Sorry, i really don’t care a bit of my penis size, and i’m sure many other guys feel the same as me. For me, my insecurity is always my personality. Women likes men who have confidence and sense of humour, and i feel sometimes that i’m not really a confident guy. I can be confident on some occasions and i clearly lost my confidence on… Read more »
John- those qualities make you “human”. We all have our unique and individual combination of “flaws”. I think it is much, much healthier, and sexier, to recognize your flaws and be open and honest about them. Hopefully it also makes you open to learning and searching about how to address those “flaws”- because that will result in you uncovering rich knowledge about yourself and the world- even if you find you flaws cannot be fixed. I have found that these “searchers” (searching for the answer on who and what they want to be), are far more sexy than people who… Read more »
OG, I considered not even outing myself on here, but didn’t think that fair. Well, you already probably knew it anyway. Glad you shared your perspective on why feminism is not for you, and I think I understand, or am trying to understand, where you’re coming from. Of course, I see it differently, and cannot describe how much this “ideology” has helped me negotiate life. I see problems with it, yes, but the main reason I looove feminism is because I see it as a movement that is always questioning itself, striving to become more inclusive, and change for the… Read more »
@jp:I don’t equate feminism with freedom and equality for women.Admittedly,for what I contend are some well thought out reasons,developed over a lifetime through experience and study,I don’t trust that political faction.I’ve supported women’s equality long before it was considered a quality of evolved masculinity.That most feminists I’ve known imagine that they and they alone define women’s equality is one of the aforementioned reasons for my distrust.Back to the future,that feminists/feminism treat men who commit rape and DV far,far differently than say lesbian/feminists who commit the same crimes has added a measure of cynicism to the brew.Hypocrisy is about as corrosive… Read more »
Ooooh that feminism = fascism comment stings a gal that has a BS in Women’s Studies (insert “BS” joke here”, and has worked for a domestic violence shelter for 8 years (so yes, I have bias, but have tried to remain neutral!). Really the gems in this discussions are the bits of stories I’ve read from you and others that defy the larger messages and experiences I’ve had, and what I have perceived to be the experience of men. I didn’t come to this post to share my reasons for being angry with men. I came here to reinforce the… Read more »
First of all,you and Sarah are gems.While I am not tired of your musings, since they are always heartfelt and interesting,I am frustrated that when women express feelings about sexual objectification it is too often done in a gender vaccuum.For instance,you wrote that sexual objectification of men is recent,which it is not.I first recalled it when I was 10 watching Mae West parade on stage with muscular men at her beck and call.The message was that these men were there,in no uncertain terms,for her sexual pleasure:period.If she wasn’t objectifying them physically she did it concerning his status.In the comics books… Read more »
“Perhaps some women feel like making such comments about men give them their power back in a world where they often feel like some of their power is being taken away because of the quality or lack of quality of their body” Erin and JP, i don’t think all of women who likes seeing hot men , cute guys are having intentions to take a power back from men, or they have intention to objectified men. My younger sisters are only 12 years old, and shes crazy for korean and japanese male idols, she have like a 50 gigabyte sized… Read more »
You have awesome messages, John. You made me recall a time in my life I had completely forgotten- I used to have posters of teen idol guys plastered all over my room. It lasted for about a year when I was yes- 12 (then I graduated to a rock ‘n roll stage where my room was covered in Ozzy Osbourne, Jolly Roger flags, and even some Greatful Dead). Funny thing is, I could have cared less about those teen idols- I think it was more about connecting with my peers, and asserting independence from my parents; the only way I… Read more »
I agree with you, some women maybe just want to get fun with being naughty, some women really enjoy it sexual way. I used to never believe that women can enjoy visual sex ( porn ), until i met my ex gf, the first woman that admitted like to watch ( and masturbate ) to porn. After that i really don’t put men and women in different box of sexuality like men are visual and women are emotional. I just put every human different in sexuality. If my gf not visual, i will not force her to drool over my… Read more »
I think those beliefs also lead to antiporn views. We believe the men must be enjoying themselves because they are men but that the women can not because no women would enjoy that can of stuff.
Also the idea that you can not be direct about sex or you must build up some kind of relationship or a promise of a relationship is based in many ways on the idea of a gender difference with regard to sexual pleasure.
John – Again, I didn’t say “all women who like seeing hot guys” are trying to take back their “power”. This isn’t anything close to what I actually said. I also would bet that your 12 year old sister is more a product of a very visual world where she grew up with the internet at her finger tips and easy access to pornography. It’s bound to change and shape your sexuality. I just don’t think that change is positive for either boys or girls men or women. i have been a part of this conversation for a long time… Read more »
Of course, there is this little thing called “culture” and it does have a powerful influence on its members. But I suppose that’s what we were talking about wasn’t it? We might not want to lose sight of that fact.
We could try to live in a cultureless world (even one without a sex culture), but I don’t think that’s possible. Someone has to relate the story of our sexual culture. Stupidly we’ve left it up to the marketers. Well, we’re a market consumer society, so why is anyone surprised? This ain’t communism ya know!
And, cultures are not invincible forces. We are not completely programmed to reproduce our cultural norms over and over again. People reject parts of their heritage all the time, all over the world, in all kinds of situations. People play with cultural expectations, fuse them with things from other cultures, make fun of them, make hybrids out of them, etc. “It’s my culture” has become a very useful license. It lets people out of their responsibilities sometimes. If culture really did have absolute control over human behavior, then it’s really hard to explain why cultures ever change at all. If… Read more »
This article reminds me of a boyfriend I had when I was 20 or 21. I was young, quite conventionally attractive, and on top of that, his type, physically and mentally. The conversation went to sexiness and he said he didn’t find me sexy, but did find some Hollywood star sexy. Why? He had seen me eating some food that he found disgusting. I had farted around him. He saw me on days where’d I’d forgotten to shave. This is what he said. I was no longer sexy to him because I wasn’t a fantasy. The woman on that month’s… Read more »
Good convo going on here.
Remember, DEATH TO THE MEDIA!!!! They are our enemy and we must stand fast against them.
Jeez, time to quote the Space Marines “On alert sisters, the enemy must be nearby!” Remember it. They are out there and out to get you.
BTW Og, do you look at porn? Have you noticed how a lot more large women are showing up these days? Like a lot more? Depends which circles you surf in I suppose, but the large women seem to be much more in style. Good to see in my view.
It’s a valid question, and one I should keep in mind more often about a in a lot of contexts (not just men’s sexuality). But in the context of the media- yes, I am quite sure that in most cases, they know exactly what buttons to press, what images to share, to make men “want her” and make women “want to be here”. And I think that has created very confusing expectations for men and women. I think it’s important to be aware of, and critical of these messages so we don’t lose touch with ourselves. I believe that’s part… Read more »
JP, Sounds like we agree quite a bit. Just thinking of my own life, I interact on a regular basis with some people who say things that are pretty obnoxious, and I am tempted to take their statements as messages to me, as personally targeted to my feelings, when in reality they aren’t really talking to me at all. What they’re really doing is a dialogue with their own weird internal garbage, disguised as a conversation with me. I realized this when I discovered it didn’t really matter what I said in the conversation, they kept on with their side… Read more »
@jp and Erin: I dated a woman who, by societies standards, would be considered fat.Loved her to death. Thought she was sexy( Of course I told her so) and she was so hot in bed, I nearly lost my mind.Me, I”m a fitness buff and at the time I dated her, I never looked better.I never put pressure on her to fit any ideal. I lost a little weight, I am naturally slight of build,and I never heard the end of it. When I told her that I am extremely sensitive to her issues around her weight, she hated mirrors… Read more »
I think it’s awesome how awesome you thought her body was, and that you communicated this to her through words and actions. I think it’s extremely sad that she could not accept herself. I think the fact that so many women feel this way signifies a larger problem than just individual women being emotionally dysfunctional. We can let it continue, or we can attempt to address it. One great way it could be addressed is if more men could share stories like you did in your first three sentences above. A more diverse set of stories, and more positive messages,… Read more »
And this (i.e. Og’s former GF) is the result of giving in to the message of the media. I’ve had that GF too Og. Shame to see her go, but you just can’t live with that nonsense for the rest of your life. Note to JP and Erin, any woman can be that women. It doesn’t matter how hot she is, but if she has that hangup, I for my part (and Og too I’m sure) will leave that woman. It’s just not worth the massive effort and pain that is involved to stay with that woman. She’ll hate you… Read more »
Not all women blame men for this. For example, even though I’d be considered conventionally attractive, I blame myself for not being good enough. When I compare myself to other women, I don’t feel anger towards men or my man, I just feel like a failure and that it’s all on me. The only time I ever got resentful was when a boyfriend actively tried to make me feel ugly. For the rest of it, I entirely put the burden on myself for not being good enough.
@Erin: My daughter, who seems to be married to a thoughtful, hardworking young-man, recently posted on her Facebook page this comment while standing next to wax figure of the Rock, a handsome ultra macho movie star, “A girl can dream can”t she.” Her husband because of his body type will never look like Rock and isn’t the showy macho type at all.This generated all kinds of supportive comments from her friends, women, who made it out to be as if my daughter was striking kind blow for women’s sexual independence. Thirty years ago, a female cousin had a bachlorette party… Read more »
I’ve never been to a bachelorette party that included male strippers. In my group of friends, it would be considered gross and tacky. I don’t think this is universally accepted. Maybe more common with younger women though.
Ogwriter, it’s not that I don’t think women can’t sexually objectify men. I do. I actually think this is an increasing issue among women who are also affected by over media exposure. But I don’t think that we’ve reached the point where men are nearly as objectified for their body as women are. Does that mean that objectification of men is less important? Not at all. I don’t really understand why your daughter would even say anything like that about a wax figure of The Rock or post it for all to see. I don’t even understand why your daughter… Read more »
Erin, I am so incredibly with you. I think what you are saying in your last post illustrates the importance of the request this article is making. For men to consider their true thoughts and feelings – and attempt to decipher their authentic selves from larger cultural messages that have been inundating them from birth. Let me tell you- the better the men I am/will be involved with are to their own, actual, sexuality- the more open I will be to expressing mine. It could be really amazing. I have seen glimpses of it in some men I have been… Read more »
I don’t mean this to sound snarky, but are the messages you are receiving the same as the messages that they are sending? How much of our reactions to other people is actually inside-out and not outside-in? At some level in some way the audience is making themselves feel bad. Years ago I stopped assuming that my reaction to a message is the only meaning of the message.
I really want to say to both J.P. and Erin, “Remember, everytime you hear the media think “FUCK THE MEDIA!”” They are liars, manipulators and your enemy. Their message is a lie and not representative of the truth. That’s a bit overstating the point, but given how it affects you both, I think you both be more at ease in the world if you took that position. The media isn’t going to change because of the effectiveness of their messaging at control people. Realize that they are trying to control you and resist. Cancel the cable, throw out the T.V.,… Read more »
P.S. Mr. Wet One, this is great. Even though I know it already, and spread the same message to those around me on a daily basis, I love the framing and language you use in your post. The urgency and compassion. Going to print it and revisit for sure.
JP, I love how you worded that and said, “For men to consider their true thoughts and feelings – and attempt to decipher their authentic selves from larger cultural messages that have been inundating them from birth. Let me tell you- the better the men I am/will be involved with are to their own, actual, sexuality- the more open I will be to expressing mine.” When I am able to feel truly open with my guy, truly safe and appreciated and valued, I can be extremely free, open and giving toward him both in and out of the bedroom. But… Read more »
“They see idolized versions of Lady Gaga and Brittany Spears and they have internet access to porn just as young boys do now and they adopt this harshness to them. this edge. And while sexually that may be very exciting to men, unfortunately, this harshness spreads throughout their life to other areas, not just sex.” “Sadly, they won’t even know they are because they never had a chance to experience their femininity free of cultural messages” So women who watch porn is not feminime? And they watch porn just because of cultural message? My gf said to me, she watch… Read more »
I never once said women that watched porn weren’t feminine. Infact, I never said anything specific about women who watched porn. I said that I see something within women in general in our culture that have adopted a harshness. Of course you don’t care if your partner watches porn. It is more in alligne with how men are stereotypically turned on. Most porn is made for men anyway. Not for women. There isn’ much room for women’s thoughts and minds in porn. It’s all about women’s bodies being the object. I also never claimed that my sexuality was the same… Read more »
If women started putting their money where their vagina are (if you’ll pardon that whatever the heck you call it) the same way they do with books (I’ll bet the majority of the purchasers of 50 shades of grey are women) porn and voices therein would change (wait a sec, isn’t 50 Shades of Grey porn? And for women? Hmmmm….). But this is the real world, not a perfect one, so… It would also help if women stopped supporting Lady Gaga, Madonna, the Spice Girls and so on, but again, this is the real world and the media has its… Read more »
I actually think Lady Gaga sends a very positive, powerful message to women. She expresses her OWN sexuality. She doesn’t pander to men. A lot of people think that expressing one’s sexuality is being sexy and acting sexual in a way to appeal to men (wearing the right clothes, giving the right looks, moaning the right way, doing what you can to look conventionally beautiful). Lady Gaga doesn’t do this. She knows that a lot of what she does and wears and says isn’t ‘sexy’ conventionally, but it’s her brand of sexual expression. I love that. The same goes for… Read more »
lol i dont like lady gaga, rihanna, and nicki minaj not vecause they have their “own brand” sexuality like you said, actually i dont care for their sexuality. I dont like them because i think their music are shit.
The Wet One, I absolutely won’t argue that there are things women need to shape up on! But why does that make you unable to specifically address the things men need to shape up on?
Aya, I like Lady Gaga too actually but I think some of her S&M sexuality stuff is over the top and since a lot of her stuff appeals to young teens, it’s a really sketchy line. She has some pluses and minuses to her all in all.
It’s one thing to not like the music, but there’s so much vitriol against these three artists that goes far beyond that. How you wouldn’t bang Gaga (I heard this on public radio), how Nicki Minaj is an ugly b*tch, how Rihanna is a crazy sl*t, etc. You can just say, “hey, their music sucks, yo.” Personally, I enjoy much of them (both for the music and the messages), but I do have a very wide range of tastes when it comes to music. In the pop genre, I find them to be better and more creative than most of… Read more »
That happens to women no matter what industry they are in. Alot of comments about Hillary Clinton’s looks have been made, Sarah Palin and her daughter…sometimes it seems like the only way men see us is to see if we are “bangable” or not.
Wow, thanks for saying this JP. This is exactly how I see it too. When I hear men collectively say things like, “yes she is hot but I am with you because of x,y and z”, it doesn’t really make me feel that good. I often get the impression men are settling for the women they are with look-wise and seeking out the kind of women they really wished they had, at least physically, through other mediums. I also get the impression that a lot of guys believe this should be enough to make a woman happy that she is… Read more »
It is an awkward position to be in, when telling the truth hurts someone’s feelings, or when someone wants you to be truthful and sensitive at the same time, which is sometimes easier said than done. Thinking about the best response may take a moment, and that hesitation sounds like an answer all by itself! One way forward is for people to be more mindful of what they are really seeking and to ask for it more directly. If I’m asking a question because I’m seeking reassurance, then I should say that I’m feeling like I need some reassurance. “I… Read more »
I think one difference btw men and women is that women give each other emotional reassurance all the time and at some level it’s dishonest but on another level it’s not. When a woman asks “does my butt look fat” she’s asking if you find her attractive. She’s not literally asking how fat her butt is. Men rarely understand that this is a female communication style very different from male communication styles. Women dont understand the difference either. I’ve learned not to ask men questions if I don’t want a literal response, but it took me years to learn.
I find this difference very common in my experience as well.
I think this indirect communication style also comes with a dark side. I think women are much adept than men are at the “complinsult.” Women more than men can be viciously polite and can wield a compliment like a knife:
“That’s a great dress. I would never have the courage to wear something like that.” Insult set up by a compliment. Thank you, and ouch.
It goes in line with women being a bit more subtle than men sometimes because women seem able to better perceive non-verbal cues more easily. I don’t know if I will truly feel “reassured” if I have to ask my partner to give me reassurance. I don’t know if that’s real reassurance or something he is just saying to make me feel better but isn’t really how he feels. Sometimes as a regular woman it can feel like you can never really win with men. Even no matter how hard you try . I don’t think anyone honesty wants to… Read more »
All of this wondering if he’d rather be with someone else is borne out of insecurity that you need to own. Certainly he should provide you with reasonable reassurance, but he’s not your therapist. If you’re obsessing about not measuring up to others, you should work on that. There’s an attractive, single woman spending the night in my house tonight. Oddly enough, I can find her attractive and still prefer my partner to her. Indeed, because I have committed to my partner it would take extraordinary circumstances to make me want to break that commitment, and mere attractiveness (even if… Read more »
A man asking his partner these kinds of insecure questions would quite often be defined as jealous and manipulative, and she would be better off without him, because he has some growing up to do……
Now a bit of direct honest from one female. Given the choice–I’d rather be treated cruelly, even violently, and have my partner find me pretty and physically attractive than be treated with kindness and have him find me ugly. Being ‘settled for’ is my #1 fear when it comes to relationships. Above all else. I think a lot of women feel like that, maybe not to the extreme of violence, but regardless. Why is 50 Shades so popular? It’s not that there are millions and millions of women who want to be tied up and shit. It’s the pure desire… Read more »
I think the issue about insecurities is a complex one. I don’t think it’s fair to simply say, “that’s just your insecurity talking”….or variations of that. I certainly have insecurities. I am sure you also have some insecurities. All human beings have some amount of insecurity. Usually the things that men are insecure or sensitive about are different from the things women can be insecure or sensitive about. I think this is a hard thing for men to understand. Which is why often in the discussion with men about certain subjects, women are advised to approach the topic gently. To… Read more »
Repeat after me: “Just because someone disagrees with me doesn’t mean they think I’m not intelligent or shouldn’t be part of the discussion.” Although… if you were trying to convince me that you’re insecure about your intelligence you’ve done a pretty good job. Speaking personally – and I can only speak for myself really – insecurity is the second biggest turnoff for me, following closely behind vapidity. My ideal woman is strong, intelligent, and confident. (You might notice how “conventionally attractive” doesn’t appear on my short list). A little insecurity is okay; as you say, we all have some insecurity.… Read more »
Nick, I think your repeated telling of Erin that she needs to see a therapist is an easy way out of challenging the larger problems that lead so many women to feel the way Erin (and I) describe. Even a lot (no, not all) of those strong self confident women that you describe your attraction to, struggle with the same issues. Many have learned to deal with them, and process their emotions in a way that hide them from you, or make them less ‘offensive’ to others. And as you say, many women don’t struggle with these issues, or find… Read more »
I wasn’t suggesting Erin specifically go see a therapist (unfortunately English doesn’t have a neutral pronoun to make that meaning clear), but rather trying to illustrate the difference between what I would suggest is a “normal” amount of insecurity and when that insecurity has become clinical. By that I mean if your insecurity is getting in the way of you forming and maintaining relationships, because you’re always comparing yourself to hypothetically hotter, younger women, that’s not healthy. If your partner is telling you and showing you that they want to be with you, and you can’t accept that because of… Read more »
Nick, your very first comment to me in response to my last post was about how my opinion was simply “borne out of insecurity that you need to own.” I’ve had a lot of experience with talking about this subject and largely men coming back at me to wrap up the conversation in an over simplified version of, “you are just insecure.” The insinuation is that my insecurity may be clouding my ability to intelligently look at an issue. Which is why I made the comment about my level of intelligence and my insecurity being able to co-exist and that… Read more »
Erin, I’ve disagreed with you several times on several threads and not once have I said you’re not intelligent. However on several occasions in your replies you defend yourself by saying just because [insert your belief here] that doesn’t mean you’re “not intelligent,” or that you haven’t “made good points,” or that you shouldn’t be allowed to “contribute to the discussion.” You’ve also accused me of looking down on you, of thinking I’m smarter than you. Why? From my perspective, I disagree with your opinion, I present my own, and I put forth arguments for why I think my opinion… Read more »
Because in our conversations you don’t give enough press time to my actual talking points without insinuating that I have some kind of handicap, in this case, such as my insecurity, clouding my judgement. Often in this discussion, a lot of men in general will chalk up a woman’s concerns about this issue to just being about insecurity and I think that implies that a woman can’t make a rational comment in regards to this topic without her having to be insecure. So I highlight my ability to yes, have insecurities (that turn you off like sludge and hair clogged… Read more »
So I highlight my ability to yes, have insecurities (that turn you off like sludge and hair clogged in a drain) but despite those insecurities, I am still able to hold an intelligent opinions on this topic. Ooh, I think drain sludge is kinda hot, but I’m more partial to the grease trap in a commercial kitchen than I am to the ordinary shower drain. It’s not that I’m turned off by any hint of insecurity; if I were I’d be a very lonely person indeed. Rather I’m turned off by insecurity that becomes front and center to our interactions,… Read more »
The thing I wonder about Erin is…well, this topic of porn seems to cause you so much pain. Why read these pieces? Why get into argument after argument with people who have made it clear that they don’t share your opinions or beliefs no matter how you’ve framed them? I ask that not to suggest you should change your own beliefs but that because these conversations seem to cause you distress and an endless cycle of explanation, pain and then some kind of confirmation of your worst fears. So, it seems that it would be more positive for you to… Read more »
@Erin, like you, I have trouble completely understanding the appeal of porn and I find a lot of it to be really upsetting. It can definitely create a lotof insecurity and feelings of personal worthlessness about myself and anger at men — I’m 45, I’ve struggled with weight issues, I was never the “hot” girl, I’ve received a lotof negative messages frm other people and from society. I think a lot of times I read these articles and comment on them because I’m trying to process my own feelings. Sometimes it helps and sometimes it makes things worse, like Julie… Read more »
Nick, yes, I get why always having to deal with someone’s insecurity could be tiring and create distance. I can understand why someone wouldn’t always want to have to deal with that. That’s understandable and human. But I also think there is a huge disconnection between a man enjoying material of 18 year old pornstar babysitters and expecting his partner to remain completely unaffected by what this bit of information is communicating for her. He’s not even completely unaffected by the material. Which is why he is turned on by it. Why is his reaction to be turned on by… Read more »
All of this just makes me so damn sad. All of it has some validity. People do fantasize and find other people attractive. This is just true. I fantasize about other houses besides my own as well. Like having three bathrooms or a pool. If all I did was tell my family how I wanted a new house and didn’t value ours, that would be rude and devaluing all we’ve put into ours. And if all a woman sees is her man’s porn stash and it’s women that are a 180 from her? Yeah, his honest sexuality is gonna wind… Read more »
But I also think there is a huge disconnection between a man enjoying material of 18 year old pornstar babysitters and expecting his partner to remain completely unaffected by what this bit of information is communicating for her. No one argued that she should be “completely unaffected.” What I argue for is if you want him to share his fantasy life, if you want him to “tell the truth about sex” you should probably not start by being judgmental about it. Does his fantasy life say something about you? Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe it’s not the actors in the fantasy… Read more »
I also want to add that there was an article On GMP about “Why She Isn’t Crazy”. This might be helpful for you t find on GMP and read yourself.
Nick: “No one argued that she should be “completely unaffected.” What Nick: “I argue for is if you want him to share his fantasy life, if you want him to “tell the truth about sex” you should probably not start by being judgmental about it.” Correct me if I am wrong than, it’s not expected that she remain “completely unaffected”, it’s just expected that she not express her own feelings in response to his fantasies? Does a man want his partner to be truthful with him about her emotional life? Or does he want her to squash down her feelings… Read more »
I’m sorry, but I’ve grown bored of this exchange so I shan’t be making further responses. Have a good evening.
How about you own the fact that you out right called me a name on this board Nick instead of runinng away and hiding from it.
I guess I lied, I’ll make one more response. I’m not running from anything. I’ll explain why I believe you’re behaving as an ass. If I write that you should wait to hear someone out before reacting to them, that word before indicates that I’m suggesting your reaction come after. It does not mean that you shouldn’t react at all, or should be completely unaffected. And I’ve written that explicitly twice now, and twice you’ve ignored that and said I’m suggesting your feelings don’t matter, that you should be unaffected. If you had simply disagreed, if you had written that… Read more »
You are completely out of line to justify calling me a name. This last little unreserved bit of commentary from you shows me just how insulting you enjoy being. Which has been a regular part of your conversation in other posts as well. Except those comments where more thinely disguised.
Julie, I think I have a valid voice on this topic. I think the way I see things might help someone else and maybe eventually get someone else to possibly view things differently. I have had a lot of people tell me over the course of talking about this subject that they saw things a big differently because of me. Sometimes I get frustrated and upset but it’s usually because of the personal insults. It’s a passionate issue from either side. I think I have a lot of passion and sensitivity inside me and I consider that to still be… Read more »
Erin, thing is I agree with much of what you say. What I’ve been getting hooked by is the repetition I guess. Like you are knocking your head into a wall over and over again and I can’t see how that’s good for you. I don’t see that anything you say is ever going to change the minds of some. Doesn’t matter. My opinion doesn’t matter here. I don’t think you are making inaccurate points. I don’t think the things you say are all that off base. I just don’t know how or if your life is better from going… Read more »
And this dear friends is why men can’t tell the truth about sex. Society has enough views similiar to those discussed in this thread that it is best if men just STFU and we all get along a little easier in this world.
Perfect solution? Heck no. Pragmatic solution, heck yes!
In the meantime, men will find their place in the world to talk freely (which isn’t really here on the GMP, but at least you try), and life goes on.
Now, back to the porn!
Wet One, out!
Hi Erin, yeah, appearance does affect how people treat us. And it sucks. It really sucks. There is a lot about life that sucks. I could be in a rage 24-7. there have been times I felt that way. I guess what I try to do is remind myself that obsessing to much about my appearance or my value to others based on my appearance just wastes my energy. The most beautiful, desirable people in the world are going to end up the same place I am. Old. Dead. Life is so damn short. A pedestrian was killed right outside… Read more »
[This is not addressed to anyone in particular. This just seems to be a good spot to put this. The “you” is meant to be non-specific.] Some part of your self-esteem has to come from inside you. You can’t be totally dependent on other people for your self-worth. If you are totally dependent like that, then you are not a fully formed person, and you will never be happy. You have no good boundaries between yourself and the rest of the world. Your relationships will be terribly unhealthy for both people involved. At some point you have to take ownership… Read more »
“So the result is we both feel like we have to hide our true selves from the other.” If we’re being honest, isn’t this really the basis of most relationships in the current climate? I don’t think most relationships or people can handle the truth. I remember even reading about some research which argued that those relationships are strongest where each partner has a higher opinion of their counterpart than the counterpart has of themselves. Almost counterintuitively, it seems relationships depend on some delusion and deception. And yes, the way you look does affect the way people treat you and… Read more »
[Supplement to my earlier remarks about self-esteem.]
I forgot to mention something else completely obvious. He may leave you for no one else at all, or he may leave you for a man. He may just leave because he wants to live alone. He may leave you for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with your body, age, or appearance. He may even leave for no reason that you could ever figure out. He could even just disappear or die. There are an infinite number of things you can borrow from the future to ruin your life today.
“There is no way he could prove to you conclusively that he will never leave you.” Some women don’t necessarily worry that a partner will leave them, but worry that he feels like he’s setting or that he doesn’t find them pretty. Feeling physically attractive is extremely important to a woman and her sex drive. You can work on that from the inside to some extent, but isn’t it nice if your partner helps you out a bit? Is it *that* difficult to take 5 seconds to tell your partner that she’s beautiful and the hottest b*tch around? To grab… Read more »
Jules: “Sometimes it just seems like two sides saying, “I want what I want and don’t tell me what to do or how to feel.” and I don’t know how we actually move past that.” I don’t either. But I do know that women largely make huge sacrifices when it comes to pornography and their men thinking about and looking at other women. I don’t think a lot of men get how much women have to deal with this on a daily basis with absoluetly no repreive from it. Even in their own homes with their own men. Women don’t… Read more »
Erin, the thing is I agree with you and I’ve said so. You have. No idea how much I agree with you. You go for it Erin. But you can rest assured I won’t address you on these boards anymore.
Thanks for this. This is very well-put. I think you’re expressing the way that many women feel, and I think this is a very common perspective. I guess what I was trying to say is that subtlety has benefits, but it also comes with a price. One price is not being able to trust other people when they tell you something, or second-guessing what they really mean when they say it. If you are surrounded by people who use five different levels of meaning when they talk, then how will you ever really feel secure you know what anyone is… Read more »
WellOkayThen, if I am wrong on this, let me know. But I get the impression that you believe that perhaps the way men communicate is a touch better than maybe how women communicate? You seem to put a greater value on direct communication over something more intricately subtle? I agree with you that subtlety can have it’s positives and negatives. But so does the way men sometimes choose to communicate. I do understand that sometimes the way women communicate makes it more difficult for men, but that can be said for the way men choose to communicate as well sometimes.… Read more »
Honestly, there probably is a part of me that assumes the style that I communicate with is better than other styles of communication. I think of my approach as more direct, so naturally I think direct is better. I can see how my earlier language might give the impression that I support blunt honesty no matter what, but I’m not suggesting honesty without limits, like everything you think and feel immediately put into words for everyone to hear. Honesty can be brutal, and honesty can even be used as a weapon. I’m not backing what’s called “radical honesty,” which sounds… Read more »
[Again, this is the general “you,” not a specific “you.”]
I just realized another drawback to having an indirect communication style. If you expect everyone else to have coded meanings, then it’s hard to take anyone’s statements at face value. I could say something with no hidden meaning, and it doesn’t get heard, because you’ll be hearing things I’m not actually saying. All men are liars (because all people are liars), but that doesn’t mean everything we say is a lie. Sometimes what we say really is what we mean and nothing else.
WellOkaythen, I am left with the impression that you think the way you communicate, and men in general, is superior. That really rubs me the wrong way. I doubt that most men are even as direct as they really believe. I doubt that they are really as clear and communicative as you seem to think they are. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had misunderstandings with men. Not because my way of communicating was “bad” and theirs was “good”, but because we simply didn’t understand each other. And the reality is that learning how to communicate effectively with… Read more »
Ladies,
Read Men Need More: More Sex, More Respect, More Gratitude, and More Love and you will understand what WOMEN need as well as MEN need. Here’s the link.
http://www.amazon.com/Men-Need-More-Gratitude-ebook/dp/B009TTOILU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1350961748&sr=8-1&keywords=men+need+more+more+respect+more+gratitude
“That she isn’t really allowed to want to feel beautiful to her partner because he really likes other women that hold qualities physically that she will never have.” ?Huh? What does that mean? Can’t she feel any way she wants? Does the mere fact that he finds other women beautiful mean that she can’t feel beautiful to him? Or can’t feel beautiful at all? What am I missing here? As for differing communication styles, this series of shortt videos explained a great many things to me: http://www.understandmen.com/reviews/index.html Prior to seeing this video, how many women (not all, but many) spoke… Read more »
I think you make good points. I’ve actually gone through periods in my life where I wondered if being in relationships with men is even worth it becsuse it seems like I am NEVER EVER going to be good enough. Nothing I do will ever make me attractive enough for me. There is always someone else who will catch his eye, always some way that my body fails to please him. I’m in a relationship now, but I have stayed single off and on throughout my life and my feelings about my lack of attractiveness is a major reason. I’ve… Read more »
Nothing I do will ever make me attractive enough for me. That is a telling statement if ever I read one. There is always someone else who will catch his eye, always some way that my body fails to please him. Those are two very different statements there, and the way you casually associate them make me wonder if you understand that. I would very much agree that there will always be someone who will catch his eye. This is normal, and to be expected. Indeed, the only people I wouldn’t expect it of are those who are clinically depressed.… Read more »
I was sharing what goes through my head, knowing it is often not completely rational. I remember watching Cinderella as a little girl, and feeling horrible about myself because I had big feet. (I was a large girl. My dad is 6’3″ and I got his genes.) I know, stupid. But imagine watching that movie as a little girl and realizing that your feet are so big and ugly, you will definitely never get the handsome prince! You are the hideous step sister! Stupid, yes, but those thoughts get ingrained in one’s psyche … Sigh
It’s also telling that I’d probably stay with a guy who beats me if he makes me feel like I’m incredibly beautiful and sexy. It’s no contest. Not feeling beautiful and attractive with a partner is devastating and stays with you forever. Physical wounds heal. Maybe some of us do need therapy.
Ironically Sarah, I am embarressed by my small feet!
I don’t think men usually understand the different ways women can feel unloved and disrespected. Drooling over 22 year olds in a world that is harsh and judgemental on women for their looks and age can easily make a woman feel unloved, underappreciated and disrespected. It might not make a man feel that way but I know of plenty of things that make men feel those things and that would like women to be aware of even if they don’t make me feel that way.
Perhaps this is still taboo to say, but a man could be attracted to his partner AND to other women. Attraction is not necessarily a finite quantity where any attraction to others means less attraction to you.
When did “imagination” about something come to mean “preference” for something?
Many men feel like they have to choose between sexual diplomacy (sometimes known as “lying”) and telling the truth. I have no doubt that in many cases, they are not really being asked to make that choice and they are just imagining it, but in many cases I think they really are placed in that position. Actual questions/comments that I have fielded in my relationships: “Does my ass look big in these pants?” “Do you ever wish I was more like that?” “Did you see what she was wearing to that party? Who would be attracted to that?” “She wasn’t… Read more »
Wish I had more time to respond to this post- my brief perspective is that- we need to think about why women are asking these questions, why women are insecure about whether “my ass looks big in these pants”, why it is we think our partner would prefer “I was more like that”. Why do women feel so insecure that we ask for constant validation? It goes right back to the basis for this article- the larger cultural message women receive, and the specific sexual messages we receive from many (not all) individual men in our lives- “yes, I would… Read more »
I see a real difference between: 1. Sometimes imagining or even wishing your partner looked like someone else. and 2. Actually preferring someone else and just settling for who you’re with. If the expectation is that your partner will never be attracted to anyone else and will only fantasize about being with you, then that’s a tall order. Only about 5% of the population should be in committed relationships at all, in that case. (Maybe that’s reality, but it seems awfully restrictive.) If once in a while I think my partner’s butt could use a little toning, that doesn’t mean… Read more »
This reminds me of a bitter tearful argument I had with a girlfriend in my youth about “settling.” She made a serious argument about believing in the one true love fallacy. I pointed out that one could not possibly know that they had met the one as it would take longer than one’s lifetime to merely glimpse all the possible people who could be the one (it takes a long long long time to view 3.5 billion members of the opposite sex, longer than a lifetime in fact). Why o why was this even an argument? I have no idea,… Read more »
I believe that sex is always a bit dramaturgical, so one is trying to give a “good performance.” My belief also, though, is that the dramaturgy, although it may be exciting to both parties, can either develop into or hook into a fetish, and that that may start to reduce sensation and what I’ll call the deepness of the experience. That may demand that the fetish get “ratched up.” In other words become more like an addiction. So I believe that really good sex rolls in the opposite direction of being a fetish, and tends to be about the sensations—… Read more »
@wellokthen:How the,fat butt,comment might go over is dependent on the audience. I’ve dated black,white,latina,phillipino and asian women.Of those,generally speaking,I wouldn’t say it to asian or white women.White women,especially middle and upper middle-class,in my experience are hypersensitive to comments about their thighs,breasts or butt. and let’s not pretend,since we are discussing nerds/geeks, that women don’t make unflaterring remarks about men’s bodies;remember high school?
It leads me to wonder where honesty really ranks in importance when it comes to sex; I’m not so sure it’s at #1 in all situations at all times. Of course it’s crucial, but does it really trump all other considerations every time? Do men and women actually want ONLY the pure truth when it comes to sex? Hard as it is to admit, a lot of us also want a little exaggeration, a little illusion, and some encouraging words that may not be the full truth.
The psychologists call it “healthy idealization.”
I read somewhere that relationships work better when you idealize the other person.
In my 25 years it also seems like people like to be lied to.
“Where are the heavy-weight male voices debating contemporary sexuality? ”
Maybe there are things just as intriguing to men and more objectively discussed than sex.
Sports, guns, Carburetors, bikes, dogs, games, tools, money, work…….
http://www.slate.com/articles/life/roiphe/2012/10/kids_and_porn_you_found_your_13_year_old_s_porn_stash_what_should_you_do_.html
More reasons why men can’t talk about sex. Immaturity? Overbearing moralistic parents who want to control your sexuality, think gay conversion therapy, which equates kind of to female efforts to modify male sexuality .
A 13-year-old with a porn stash? Kids today get all the breaks. I didn’t get a porn stash until I was in college. Before that I raided my older brother’s stash under his bed.
Back in my day….uphill both ways in the snow…no electricity….
@wellokthen: It’s a stupid remark for far too any reasons to list not the least of which is it’s inherit bias. I certainly don’t consider a thick woman to be fat, even though others might.
I think I’ve been assuming that neither Sarah nor her date were African American. Would it make a difference to you if her date was also a black man? Or, what if she and her date were both joking together later about how friendly the waiter was?
It’s certainly a risky remark with no conceivable up side to it. Well, at least one practical use: it’s generally a good way to make sure there’s no second date…..
! have a few questions to anyone who might like to answer them. Why is it when Lady Gaga,Madonna,Cher,Rihanna,Christina A,or Britanny Spears,who in my oppinion are purveyors of soft porn to teen agers, never get blame for setting impossibly high standards of beauty and edgy sexuality for girls and women? How can they be considered role models for youngwomen; and boys. Aren’t they celebrating,primarily for profit and self agrandizement, female sexual power without bearing any of societal burden? Women who feel disordered because they don’t meet the specific cultural norm, feel bad because they can’t compete. In all cultures,whatever the… Read more »
Lady Gaga, Rihanna, Nicki Minaj, and Madonna express their OWN sexuality, not one tailored towards men. That’s what makes it different. None of them (except Rihanna) are conventional beauties. Lady Gaga sings about thinking of other women while having sex with men, hooking up at clubs, enjoying the chase, falling in love–things that happen to most women. Rihanna sings about the kind of sex she enjoys and her destructive relationships. Nicki Minaj makes no apologies for her girliness and eccentric style. You can be strong and talented and still love silly pink things. Britney Spears and Christina A are different.… Read more »
Assuming Lady Gaga is singing about her fantasies of other women when having sex with men, which you think is positive and demonstrating female sexual power, why is it wrong for for men to demonstrate the same thing? In the thread about men expressing their sexual fantasies you seemed to present very differently than you are now. Would you want your guy to tell you he was thinking of someone else while making love to you? You seem so sensitive to not being payed enough attention to in relationships, of not being reminded that you are beautiful, that you are… Read more »
And how would you react if your boyfriend tell you that he thinking on another man when having sex with you? Just for your information men bisexuality is real. And from my experience, straight women are more allergic to men bisexuality than straight men to women bisexuality are. I’m straight with slight bisexuality ( maybe i’m bi curious, and this happen to many men ), and i never tel my gf about my fantasies about being raped in prison by another guys, about my fantasies making out with my guy friend, because i now she will be freak out. You… Read more »
But there are a few covers of “I Kissed a Boy” done by different lesser known male artists. That, unto itself, seems to me like a big step forward. And with the popularity of Gay Chicken among college age men, how far away can a popular cover be? I half expect it at any moment.
I thought this discussion was about Male sexuality — not female popular recording artists and the sociological implications of same. Did I miss something?. (But I agree with you about Mae West and Josephine Baker.)
@David Ede May: You will find on this site that what often starts out as a subject specific to men ( well straight, white men mostly) segues into a discussion about said subject or concern applies to women. That could be just my perception. Some of this is good and some it is not so good. This site is far more tolerant of female opinions and input than I have found most feminists sites to be of male opinions and input, which is great. At the same time, I also find that men stand up and challenge women more on… Read more »
@Cindy: I dated a woman who was a therapist who held the exact same beliefs. Made me wonder how she was ever able to deal with men on issues without bias polluting the process. Reknowed sexual researchers Dr’s Buss and Meston of Texas University have listed over 221 reason’s other than love and procreastion that women have sex. Among them;to get a better job;to get a better movie part, for money, to get a better grade, to get a car, for pity, for revenge etc.
And those reasons don’t have to be mutually exclusive of each other. There are a million combinations of items on the list…..
@Sarah Radford: If my point is true then, body image issues, which take up an enormous amount of time and space in the hierarchy of the public good, are self inflicted wounds.Your final comment, ” I’m not it’s universal but its fairly common.” deserves an asterisk. It is farly common,to a small percentage of the population, mostly white affluent, educated women.who’s concerns recieve far more attention than they deserve.
My sex truth? I became very emotional during and after sex. There are many times i got straight to bathroom, to cry after sex, without her knowing it. I really crave intimacy. I like foreplay, cuddling, kissing, not only to please women , but also to please myself. I dont think penetration is the ultimate goal in sex. I like giving oral to women, more than receiving it. What , are you a guy? are you sure you have a penis? Haha, yes I’m a man. No, men dont like intimacy and foreplay during sex, they only want to stick… Read more »
Thank you for sharing, John, you sound very self-aware. Your’s is the truth we need to hear. Complicated and vulnerable- as are most of our truths, whether we like to admit it or not.
With all of it’s honesty, your truth helps me come closer to accepting my own.
Hey buddy, what’s wrong with my truth? I’m sensing some kind of dismissal of my truth. Of course, maybe I’m overreacting, in which case I apologize. Still though, some clarification about the “Your’s is the truth we need to hear,” comment would be appreciated. Are you saying your truth is like his, or something else?
Thank you. I think its rather funny that many guys and girls are debating about big boobs small boobs thin women thick women about men sexuality. Its like men sexuality is all about women bodies. My sexuality is about myself, what i feel, what i want. Big boobs, small boobs, young women, old women, i dont care! I think women who are too busy thinking about their own body image wont make their partners satisfied. They should think more about the guy, the guy’s body, the guy’s feeling. Many women are too self centered in sex, i find its super… Read more »
“It’s like men’s sexuality is all about women’s bodies. My sexuality is about myself, what I feel, what I want.”
Profoundly true, too often forgotten, and needs to be said. Quote of the year, seems to me.
Not to mention the millions of men in the world who are not attracted to women. They have their sexuality, too….
I greatly appreciate this last part of your comment, Wellokaythen. As this article and discussion is (or was) focused on whether men can tell the truth about their sexuality, I’ve seen little said about the fact that some men are not attracted to women at all. I’m bisexual, so I am attracted to both, but except for a couple of comments at the beginning, this entire discussion has turned largely heteronormative, and leaves out the gay, bi and trans perspective. For me, I’m not shy about being both bi and poly, into BDSM, and preferring the sub role there. My… Read more »
The other commenters I refer to are Rick Powell and the “Anon” who replied to him. Good comments from both! I’ve had quite a few encounters to varying degrees with men who insisted they were straight. In my experience, a few were curious about pleasures they’d never tried, but most wanted to be there to get experiences their women refused to explore with them (at least that was their claim). I suppose some of them could closeted and unable to admit it, but many were most definitely straight men with a curiosity. In almost every case, they were paranoid about… Read more »
I think this brings up an interesting related question that I don’t really know the answer to but am curious to find out:
When it comes to being honest about sex, are men more honest with male partners than with female partners? Less honest? The same? I don’t mean to put you on the spot, but I am curious what your perspective is, if you’re willing to share.
I can only speak for me; but I’ve struggled to reach a stage of healing from child sex abuse where I am very open and honest with my male partner and female partner. I say what I need, what I want, as do they, and we discuss and negotiate compromises like any other sexual partnership. Neither of them are interested in BDSM, but my female partner is more interested in exploring away from vanilla. My male partner prefers romantic vanilla. We try to compromise, but it can be challenging. I believe they need to respect my needs/wants; but I also… Read more »