Mik from Australia responds to our commenter Anonymous Male on why there is a seeming paradox when it comes to men and women and beauty.
EDITOR’S NOTE: Here at The Good Men Project, we’ve had an ongoing series on “Women’s Obsession with Beauty,” with the goal of discovering some truths about how both men and women really feel about beauty. On one of those posts, a commenter who goes by the name of Anonymous Male asked about an apparent paradox. You can read his whole comment here, but in a nutshell:
On the one hand, men are portrayed as ravenous sexual beings who sleep with anything that moves. On the other, they have totally unrealistic expectations about beauty, wanting only the ‘hot babe’. Paradox?
We asked for responses, and Mik from Australia wrote the following post.
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The Beauty Paradox
For as long as women have been viewed by patriarchal societies as possessions, their worth and value have been intrinsically linked to the beauty aesthetic of the era they live in. Ergo, being considered “beautiful” becomes a measure against a fashionable cultural standard that adds to, or subtracts from, the perceived value of the object— i.e. the female in question.
What you may be intuiting—and perhaps, instinctively reacting to—is that some men aspire to “owning” a beautiful woman as another way of competing with and gaining a sense of superiority over other men. A culturally and appropriately “beautiful” woman is presumed to bring caché to a man’s status. She is a “thing,” a toy, a trump card, a piece of bullion.
Women have struggled for centuries against being treated as things or objects and by gosh darn it is a battle! Male privilege is so culturally indoctrinated that many believe this behaviour is biological. (Ask Hugo Schwyzer and he will tell you emphatically, it’s not! It’s cultural).
The dichotomy is that no one female can meet the exacting beauty standard that is set by the cultural norms of its time! The standard is––and always has been––set just beyond the limit of achievability. If the standard were actually reachable, then there would be the claim of ‘Perfection’ and given that most people resist the idea that actual perfection can exist, the beauty standard remains always slightly out of reach.
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For women, buying (literally!) into the beauty standard means trying very hard to match them selves to it. The cost is often much higher than the financial investment, of course. The way we see it is, that if we (I’m generalizing here), hope to achieve the kind of hetero romantic/sexual relationship that meets a whole slew of emotional and psychological capacities, then meeting the beauty standard ostensibly gives us the edge for male attention.
Men instinctively know this about the beauty standard even if they’re barely aware it exists. Many women rail against meeting the standard (it can do our heads in quite frankly!). Some deliberately opt out. Men are capable of understanding that despite any prescribed, but unachievable beauty standard, women will always be exactly what they are in that moment. Women may be smart, easy-going, outright bitches, tall, short, thin, fat, cuddly, sweet, nasty, entertaining, charming, snide, flirty… in other words, fascinating and intriguing in all their human complexity.
At which point, for men, it’s probably more like, “To hell with that standard for now… I’m curious about THIS female!” This is because a whole lot of other attraction factors come into play that can belie our culturally constructed notions of what is considered beautiful.
When women aren’t viewed as possessions with an intrinsic value based on the shape they are and the skin they wear, then a culturally imposed, impossible-to-meet, standard of beauty is no longer necessary. Beauty would go deeper than skin, to layers of human attraction and interest that are as unique as the individuals engaged in the relationship.
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I hope for a time when women can stop competing to meet elusive beauty standards and men will stop competing to possess women that aspire to meeting these standards.
Accepting people as they are in the moment, is the key.
No measures or standards are required (although good personal hygiene helps), just simple acceptance. A woman is every bit a human being as a man. Repeat that daily and attempt to understand what it means in practice.
A man can be certainly attracted. So can a woman. Learn to recognise when she’s not attracted to you and move on with grace and good humour (not at her expense though). If she is attracted, then be geniuine, kind and always, always ASK first—about everything!
Accept that there are facets to people which aren’t tied to culturally imposed standards. Do not seek to own or possess the “most” beautiful of skin and shape: seek instead, a far greater kind of potential beauty, the person within! Learn to see past the overall façade and base attraction for a woman on her character, temperament, her personhood, and her good features (many women do have a physical feature that she does actually like. You can ask her what it is when you’ve built up trust enough to do so).
Show empathy. Demonstrate restraint and good manners. Collect your trophies on the sporting field not from among females! Treat women as they wish to be treated; and if they don’t know how they wish to be treated, go with respect, empathy, equality, humility and compassion.
Like women as friends first and foremost and let go of assuming you must “conquer” them sexually. Relationship must always be mutual and reciprocal.
Allow women to pursue pleasure for its own sake – even sexually if they wish, but without shaming them or imposing that awful Madonna/whore standard on them.
Let women be what they want to be. Inspire their intellect, their creativity, and their joie de vivre. Let women express passions but don’t play coy or manipulate them.
Don’t tell those god awful whiny hapless man-jokes about women! Show restraint with the silly blonde jokes (Note: Regardless of whether a woman is a brunette or a blonde, she is still a human being and one “type” is not more sexually valuable than the other. Get over that whole Blonde thing! It’s crass and you’re better than that! She’s way better than that!).
Help women to love their own bodies and to accept themselves as inherently beautiful because they’re human. Many women can have great difficulty believing a man who tells them they’re beautiful. [I know because I’m one of them!] But they must hear it…often, to help them learn that it is a truth of their personhood and character, not a buy in to beauty culture. Encourage the women you like and love to be healthy and strong, physically, emotionally and mentally.
Learn that your masculinity is not something that requires you to act in certain culturally imposed ways. You do not need to fear being emasculated by women, or your sensitivities, your fears, your romantic side, or your love of heavy thighs and larger than average bottoms! You have every right to express your sexuality your way with the caveat that you must not harm another person through it.
Accept that women will always, always distrust a man before she trusts him. This lack of trust can last long into a relationship. We are so alert to being played, abused, violated, used, and possessed that it can take a long, long, long time for some women to “let go” and trust that you are being genuine and that you really do care (and that you are capable of managing your own life and home for that matter!). We have a lot to learn too, about letting go of our own culturally imposed standards for men. So work with us and beside us on this journey.
It’s about respecting people: not because of their gender, their appearance or their status, but because we’re all in this together and we need each other more than we care to admit.
Mik
Australia
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Here’s the post that prompted the original conversation: Beauty, Obsession, Men, and Women
Here is our entire section: Women’s Obsession with Beauty
Photo: schinagl / flickr
“For as long as women have been viewed by patriarchal societies…” This is where I tuned out. I’ll come back and read this article later when I’ve had a chance to charge my BS deflectors.
Haven’t you got this all topsy-turvy? “some men aspire to ‘owning’ a beautiful woman as another way of competing with and gaining a sense of superiority over other men. A culturally and appropriately ‘beautiful’ woman is presumed to bring caché to a man’s status. She is a ‘thing,’ a toy, a trump card, a piece of bullion …” Speaking as a man, having had many dealings with men, having read a lot of history and biology – and having used my common sense – i find it far more likely that men seek status in order to snare a high-value… Read more »
I’m afraid the author has rather got it all arse about face. We don’t acquire beautiful women to boost our status. We boost our status to acquire beautiful women! Basic evolutionary principle. As for the paradox, there is none. Men who choose fertile, symmetrical women will have more offspring, and thus pass on that preference. So we’ve all evolved a preference for youth and beauty; we all want the most beautiful young female. Trouble is, we can’t all *have* the most beautiful young female. But mating with a less attractive female is better than not mating at all, so our… Read more »
The look for your website is a bit off in Epiphany. Nevertheless I like your weblog. I might need to install a normal browser just to enjoy it.
This is something i’ve written about several times. There definitely needs to be a big shift in perception of women, by themselves AND others.
http://strangekitty.ca/body-image-and-the-younger-generation/
I think that the message of this article, barring a few broad strokes in the early parts which others have pointed out, is essentially good. However, I object to the list contained being aimed exclusively at men. I believe that just as many women could stand to learn these lessons on proper and respectful treatment of fellow human beings and the importance of seeing them as fellow human beings first, rather than as adversaries, objects or aliens. I can especially respect the last point regarding fear and distrust, and it is also the one I think most needs to be… Read more »
This sort of ridiculous over the top feminist gobbledygook probably has the opposite effect from teaching people about the issue because who can take it seriously? The shame is there’s something of interest that could be said about it underneath all that preaching and ideological man bashing. The ridiculous constant Sex War propaganda. Women have struggled for centuries against being treated as things or objects Men are all bad guy women are all good guys. Men hurt men always. Women are always fighting their oppression. It’s nothing but hate language. Just the idea that all women or all men would… Read more »
Centuries? Really? Well, maybe a little over 1 century, as in late 1800’s-1900’s-early 2000’s. Maybe they have been treated as objects throughout history, but “they” are as much responsible for the role as men. And by “they”, I mean women of the past. Not only that, but men have had their own share of objectifications. While women are “objectified” by being safely stored away during times of war, who has been fighting those wars? Mostly men. Have men created most of the wars? No. Those who have created most of the wars just happen to be men. Most rulers have… Read more »
Women are physically attracted by alpha male characteristics, men by certain visual cues. This is not gonna change.
How many women do you know?
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I think that sexual atractiveness in women is an attribute that is determined on mainly visual cues. Across times, different environments required a different set of characteristics to give the best survival and replication value. Nowadays all our basic needs are covered, so for instance there is no longer need for excessive fat storage in order to survive the winter. The true genetic strength of women gets to be the measure of beauty. I’m guessing a feminist wrote this…
This argument is wrong on so many levels. You are essentially saying that; If you have two genes, one for liking thin women, one for linking fat women. These genes changed in frequency, with the fat being most frequent in the 15th century, and the thin being most frequent now. This is called a selective sweep. and requires a massive death rate in the population. So we see mini selective sweeps in pandemic flu, such as 1918 spanish flu, malaria, or the current HIV pandemic. Where we can measure the change in the frequency of resistance genes. For your argument… Read more »
That’s quite a feminist anti-male translation of patriarchy rather than a historical one. Patriarchy is mostly just a historical necessity of specialization in families. I doubt there were many feminists demanding to go spear hunting but a lot of women and children that were happy with food and security.
It is very traditional that women flaunt, men court and women choose. Traditional relationships are discriminatory to both men and women by setting pre-determined gender roles.
Just because you make up a bunch of rules, doesn’t mean people will follow them nor does it mean that they should be thought of less for doing so. – Every man has a standard of beauty. No man lives without standards for what he will or will not accept from a potential mate. – A man will not form a genuine relationship with a woman he was no (none, zero, nadda zilch) physical attractive to. – If a man forms a relationship with a woman as her friend he risk permanently being a friend, the term “friend zone” exist… Read more »
Redundant Rant.
Standards, huh?
Patronizing? Much?
I found this topic pretty one sided. You say that it is bad for men to value a woman’s physical beauty? Well, what about all the importance women place on a man’s appearance and behavior? “He has to look like this, he has to dress like this, he has to own this, he has to do this, he has to smell like this…..” The list goes on and on and women are just as guilty. But to me I have never thought about ‘owning’ a woman but I would like for her to look her best, just like I always… Read more »
Great article, Mik; but don’t forget, employers need to take this advice to heart too. Attractiveness also has an advantage in the workplace, because as our economy has become more and more dominated by sales and customer service, the need to present a good image has become more paramount. And many business owners believe, often rightly, that good-looking people raise more revenue than plainer people. The result is a limitation in job skills for everybody– the plain people miss out on the interpersonal skills of engaging with the public, the attractive “public faces” miss out on broadening their repertoire by… Read more »
“On the one hand, men are portrayed as ravenous sexual beings who sleep with anything that moves. On the other, they have totally unrealistic expectations about beauty, wanting only the ‘hot babe’. Paradox?” – Interesting but no. en generally are willing to have sex with ALMOST any woman. But they want the ‘hot babe’ mainly for other reasons such as reproduction etc. Just because someone is a ‘ravenous sexual being’ doesn’t mean they’ll only have sex with hot girls. As for the expectations, well, most mens expectation(contrary to your stereotype) are not usually unrealistic. However, women possess a just as… Read more »
Once again it’s all about what men can do for women. Men are supposed to be understanding, and compassionate, and empathetic towards women and are admonished to accept hostile treatment from the women in their lives. No one ever admonishes women to treat the men in their lives with respect and compassion. It’s all about her, after all, she has no responsibilities to her relationships. It’s all about what he can do for her. Male sexuality is once again denigrated and stigmatized as something inherently predatory. Women have rights, men have responsibilities. Don’t pretend you understand what draws certain men… Read more »
I have wondered where all the directives and instructions are from MEN telling WOMEN how THEY need to change to satisfy US. Certainly modern feminism is largely taken up with telling men how we’re wrong, we need to ‘shut up and listen,’ we must accept and agree with their criticisms, and we must promise to do better in order to satisfy women’s demands.
Which kicks off the MGTOW movement with the entirely reasonable question: “Why should we?”
Maybe “owning” is not the best choice of word? But certainly you get a feeling of status boost, of impressing your buddies, when you land a hot girl. You “own” something all right, but it’s a feeling of pride.
It’s “all about what men can do for women” because men have always been more culturally privileged. All privileged people are called upon to give of themselves to less-favored people, to level the playing field.
“because men have always been more culturally privileged”
Prove it. Are you saying that every man is always privileged in relation to every woman? Looking at the statistics on life outcomes and general welfare, women(in aggregate) appear far more well adjusted than men are. With better mental health, higher levels of educational attainment, longer life spans, better general health, far far lower rates of incarceration, far lower suicide rates, and far lower rates of homelessness.
Doesn’t sound much like privilege to me.
In order for any relationship to succeed both partners need to have the same focus. We all know what that focus is: The focus is all about HER!
Men, when you get up in the morning look at yourself in the mirror and say “EFF YOU! Eff your dreams, eff your hopes, eff everything you thought this life was gonna bring you! Now, let’s get out there and try to make this b1tch happy!”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yqssU99MU8
Agree with the takedown of the “beauty standards are all cultural” fairy tale. The whole silly idea is predicated on a) over-emphasizing the fact that geographically dispersed groups of endogamous human populations (races, in other words) developed differing standards given their genetic endowments (oh, wow, THAT’s a stunning revelation); b) observing that beauty standards with regards to overall body size and shape have changed relative to the economic and disease environment without also accounting for the facts that human have also very possibly evolved over that period of time as well; and c) not accounting for the prevalence of relatively… Read more »
Tom: whether “beauty standards are cultural” is more fairy tale than we thought or not, believing it has one very important advantage:
We stop making excuses for hurting people through our unconscious biases.
It’s not just about finding a mate, Tom. Your unemployed fifty-something friends are having trouble finding jobs because of unconscious beauty bias. The question is whether you want to help fight that problem, or be a part of that problem by letting yourself off the hook with a belief it’s all biology. Remember: someday you will be old and sick, too.
Yes, whatever a PUA blogger says must be true.
I appreciate the words of advice about relating to women in deep, respectful ways. I have a few “yeah buts” about the advice, though: My wife is blonde, and most of the blonde jokes I know come from her. She thinks they’re funny, perhaps because she knows she’s more intelligent than I am, so they don’t really stick. I’ll take my cue from women themselves when it comes to jokes about women. (Most of the lawyer jokes I know I’ve learned from lawyers. They know some great ones!) A woman may in fact be wrong. She may want something from… Read more »
Mik, I get what you’re saying, and I partly agree and partly disagree. I don’t think we can connect all feminine beauty ideas to patriarchy. Your article reminds me of Naomi Wolf’s _Beauty Myth_, which I found to be passionate and somewhat persuasive. I think patriarchal forces do exist, and I think they can be very devious, but I just don’t think it’s the only thing operating here. It’s just not possible to trace all beauty issues back to a desire to benefit men and men only. First of all, the cool thing in academia today is to pluralize things,… Read more »
Exactly. Personality standards for women can be just as constricting, if not more so, than beauty standards. Especially the expectation that women always be nice, positive, and take heaps of burdens and abuse without making a scene. Men more easily fall under this standard too; if only for the simple fact that our economic system is so heavily dependent on customer service, which involves emotional labor and the “selling” of our attitudes. I’d wager that the pressure on all of us, men *and* women, to not make a scene and put making others comfortable above all, actually dwarfs pressure to… Read more »
Mik: Are you a woman? I ask because when speaking about women you use terms like “we” and “us”. If so that explains why you buy into the concept of “trophy wives”: projection. It is many more times likely for women to marry men to raise her status. Men (from my experiences) do NOT date beautiful women to brag to other men. In fact in my experiences the more beautiful the woman is the guy is dating the more often have I encountered them by accident at the mall. I.E. he kept the fact that he had a new gf,… Read more »
Untrue. Male standards for beauty DO vary across cultures. In some cultures, men find thighs more beautiful than breasts. In some cultures, overweight women are more attractive than average or underweight women. In other cultures, men like long necks (hence why some cultures have women wearing those bangles around their necks). And the list goes on, but beauty standards ARE NOT the same across all cultures.
You know, most American men I know actually vary considerably in what they consider beautiful. A pretty face is usually the only thing that doesn’t change. I have male lovers who notice and admire “thick” women as well as thin, ballerina types. Sometimes, what men admire is a specific line of how the neck meets the shoulder. Oftentimes, what men are most attracted to are women who exude confidence and happiness. Those qualities can totally change how a woman is perceived.
Men are not as awful as so many women would like to believe.
Excert: “What you may be intuiting—and perhaps, instinctively reacting to—is that some men aspire to “owning” a beautiful woman as another way of competing with and gaining a sense of superiority over other men. A culturally and appropriately “beautiful” woman is presumed to bring caché to a man’s status. She is a “thing,” a toy, a trump card, a piece of bullion.” Utterly false. Men like beautiful women because it fires the reward center of their brain to look at, converse with, feel the curves of, be intimate with and orgasm with a beautiful women. I remember reading a study… Read more »
Am I misreading this post? It seems like it ultimately boils down to asking men to stop valuing physical beauty. Eh…
Indirectly it does, by pointing that ‘traditional’ standards of sexual attraction are inherently shallow–which, of course, they are.
And as soon as women start flocking to beta males, men will stop competing for the “alpha” slot and quit seeking out only the hottest-looking women while ignoring the rest. Fairness goes both ways.
Putting some teeth back into marriage and making them harder to tear asunder would be a good first step in the process. This is one of the many reasons I support fathersandfamilies.org Reforming welfare into workfare (giving the mother free childcare & training to look for a job instead of direct subsidation) and removing the billions and billions of dollars used to prop up women’s education, training, networking, mentoring, employment, and women-owned businesses would help too. If we stop artificially handing money to women through government the prospect of the respectful hardworking husband would be (partially restored). Once we stop… Read more »
Steve Jobs was adopted. His bio-dad was a Syrian Muslim; and he was adopted at a time when there was still a lot of stigma attached to adopted kids.
Would there have even been an Apple? Would Cupertino have ever become more than a backwater? Would Silicon Valley have ever been the technological, economic and cultural force it became… if Steve’s adoptive parents had chosen not to love him and give him a home? Because gosh darnit, you can NEVER love a child if they don’t carry your genes?
what about beautiful men? what about men who are attracted to men?
what about *metrosexuality*?
https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/metrosexual-reflections/