Black Widow isn’t real, but the millions of women and girls called “sluts” everyday are. Somehow, Jeremy Renner still thinks his joke was okay.
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Renner, you’re KILLING me here. I love The Avengers and I was a big fan of yours, but this “Black Widow is a whore” and “She’s a slut” bullshit tear you’ve been on is not cool.
I get what you’re saying in this clip (above). You’re saying, “She’s not real, so how can this be offensive?”
Here’s how: You’ve offended me. And I’m real. You’ve offended my friends, and they’re real. And you’re harming real girls and women by doing it.
You’ve called us sluts. We’ve slept with 4 or 5 guys, all of us. Most of us have hooked up with even more. Some of us have also slept with women. Sure, none were Avengers (as far as I know), but I can tell you right now that if Bruce Banner were real and he looked like Mark Ruffalo (who, I have no doubt, is not enjoying your doubling-down on shaming Black Widow’s character), I’d have been all about that. Seriously. Don’t even get me started on RDJ and Tony Stark… Just sayin’.
That’s the thing: I love sex. I happen to only have sex with one particular guy right now (and for the last 11 years), but I like doing that. And before him, I liked having sex, too! You can call me a slut (fair warning – you might get punched in the face if you do) but you’d be wrong. What I am is a woman who likes sex and loves being intimate, and I never felt it was up to society to tell me which consenting adults I was allowed to sleep with.
And there are many others like me. Happy, healthy, powerful, accomplished, educated, beautiful, funny, clever, independent women who like to get down. And some who aren’t all those things. Some of us are that and more. We are a diverse group, women. But a lot of us like to have a lot of sex.
So when I hear a man saying a woman, any woman, is a slut, I take it personally.
As a teenager I was called a slut. I was also called a dyke, a bitch and stuck-up (that’s the name teen boys call girls who won’t date or screw them). I don’t know many women who weren’t called sluts in high school. I was also groped in the hallways and regularly had my bra snapped starting in fifth grade.
Do you know what it’s like to have your bra snapped when you’re 11 years old?
It’s humiliating. And all you can do is walk away, silently, because if you turn around and say, “Don’t do that!” the answer you’ll get most times is to be called a slut.
Because don’t you know that wearing a bra is an invitation for a boy to touch and hurt your body? That’s what those boys thought.
There are rules for how many guys a woman can be with.
And if we violate them? We’re called whores. Sluts. Cheap. Loose. Asking for it. That’s what you’re teaching all the kids who think you’re cool. |
And I get you’re not calling me a slut. But what you’re doing is further reinforcing that it’s okay to call women who like sex, or women who date more than the randomly-determined number of guys “sluts” and “whores”. You’re saying, “Hey, this number is too many guys to sleep with.”
What you’re doing when you call Black Widow a slut (and no doubling down on it) is reminding the world that there are rules for how many guys a woman can be with.
And if we violate them?
We’re called whores. Sluts. Cheap. Loose. Asking for it.
That’s what you’re teaching all the kids who think you’re cool. All the kids who look up to The Avengers. I know you’re not one in real life (I can’t imagine an Avenger doing this), but you are a role model.
As your own daughter gets older, will you be okay with reinforcing this type of sexism and shame for her? Are you cool with it if someday a boy or man calls her a slut or a whore if she doesn’t follow their rules about who to have sex with?
If not, you shouldn’t be doing this yourself. Not to a fictional woman, not to a real woman.
Black Widow may not be a real-life woman, but a lot of girls relate to her. And it is crushing to hear you promoting such overt woman-hate and shaming to a national audience.
I hope you’ll reconsider what you’re doing. Jokes can hurt, friend. Yours hurt me and a lot of others.
Meh, its old news by now but this article just bleeds over sensitivity… oh shit, i said bleeds. Now the snowflakes might infer that im talking about menstruation. Bottom line, dont take everything that gets said by people overly seriously. Not everything is meant in a harmful way and no one man or woman is perfect in this world. If i got offended at all the sexist comments women made when Magic Mike came out i may have a written an article like this. But alas, it didnt bother me as i dont know those people personally. Furthermore, in the… Read more »
Maybe I’m looking at this differently, but I had an issue with this as soon as I read the title.
“Calling a Fictional Woman a Slut is Still Misogyny”
So disapproval of a behavior indicates hatred of all women? That’s quite a leap.
Shaming a woman by using a sexist slur against her isn’t the same as disapproval of a woman’s behavior; you can disapprove of promiscuity without calling a promiscuous person a “whore” or “slut” (mostly used against women); in the end, that goes to hurt that person and everyone else of the same group. “Whore” and “slut” is even used against women just for being women. And I guess you know that, you just want to play the dumb cuz ou could care less about it.
Okay, people really need to chill out. It was really just a case of someone getting over exuberant with the jokes. After all, how many of us have said something was ‘gay’ or ‘retarded’ in jest? It’s insensitive, yes. But it’s not all the time that we have the luxury of editing what we say. Just my two cents.
I am not one of those people. We don’t call bad/silly things “gay” in my country, and retarded is something we mostly don’t use as well. Civilization makes people more aware and all.
Joanna, you’ve overlooked a key point. He didn’t say Black Widow was a slut because she had sex with 4 men. He called her a slut because she had sex with 4 of the 6 Avengers. Would you want to marry a guy who had slept with all your bridesmaids?
So it’s about male jealousy and not wanting to “share” with guys who could tease you about getting her off better than you did? Is this really the case? Do men actually want to feel special to the woman they have set with? Are men afraid of not being special? Of being “just another notch”? If that’s the case then men will need to start getting honest with themselves and each other (and with us). Also, you’ll have to accept that you can’t want women to treat you as ‘special’ and not reciprocate. And no, I wouldn’t have a problem… Read more »
@ Dee It has nothing to do with the woman. It has nothing to do with a guy being better in bed than another one. When a guy goes out with a friend’s ex, he’s thought to be taking his friends left overs. It’s not the guy who has her that gets the props, it’s the one who had her first. It’s like sloppy seconds. You don’t want to put your stuff where some other guy’s stuff was like not wanting to wear someone else underwear. It’s different if you don’t know the guy because you’re not actively thinking about… Read more »
“You don’t want to put your stuff where some other guy’s stuff was”
And that is how the virginity glorification and the killing of “unpure” women has always worked.
If that has nothing to do with the woman than, maybe, just maybe, not calling her a “slut” for that would make it more clear that she isn’t the problem and that her sexual life isn’t something she should be ashamed of and humiliated for.
Is he going to marry Black Widow?
“Wellokaythen, I think we’re going about this all wrong. I just sent an article submission to GMP on how men need to be right. We’re talking about the rightness of our position rather than the effect that it has.” Fair enough. Clearly this is from the beginning an emotionally charged issue, and I was perhaps being overly rational. (I’ve never been convinced that there IS such a thing as being “too rational,” but I know there are other opinions out there about that.) At some point, at some level, we have to talk about right and wrong, though, don’t we?… Read more »
P.S. If she uses a gun instead of a punch, then it is EXACTLY a 1:1 comparison. Boys don’t shoot faster bullets than girls do.
@ wellokaythen
If I understand the liberal/progressive argument correctly it would be yes and no. The power differential isn’t just offensive. It’s also defensive. Some would argue that a woman hitting a man is less harmful because he can absorb more harm. A football player who bench presses 500 lbs may survive a bullet to the chest better than a 100 pound model simply because he has more muscle mass.
Are you suggesting that the law should be more lenient to assault the bigger the victim is?
As a very large man, I don’t like the direction this is heading….
“Yeah, I shot him in the chest because he pissed me off. But hey, he’s a big guy, so what’s the big deal?”
@ Joanna Schroeder @ wellokaythen @ Paul Wellokaythen, I think we’re going about this all wrong. I just sent an article submission to GMP on how men need to be right. We’re talking about the rightness of our position rather than the effect that it has. Joanna and Paul, the problem with saying violence is not a 1:1 is that it perpetuates the attitude that domestic violence against men does not need to be addressed. A man is slapped. Police don’t have to come. Call me when she stabs you and you’re really hurt. There don’t need to be an… Read more »
I think you’re right. I don’t even know when I said gendered violence isn’t 1:1. I would never say that. I think that NO violence is full-matched except when two boxers are put into a ring after being weighed and having their skills assessed. You wouldn’t put a 15 year old boxer in the ring with Mayweather, even if they were the same size. Their skill levels just wouldn’t match. So I cannot imagine I’d EVER say that. There are women bigger than men. There are men who, in the face of violence or trauma freeze or flee instead of… Read more »
There’s another issue with violence. In my experience, those who are willing to be a perpetrator more often than not fight with more energy, more aggression and are willing to throw caution to the wind with regard to the law. A smaller woman can fight with more force than a larger man especially if that man is afraid, also if he is against hitting women, and usually victims aren’t prepared and are taken by surprise. Even violent men may not use full force if they have the view that women are not equal to men and think they only need… Read more »
Personally, Joanna, I think this whole thing has more to do with male ego and hurt feelings. Ppl always ask “Why can’t I call her a slut? She fictional.” But we have yet to ask “If she’s fictional, then why call her a slut?” People make comments for a reason….we all know this deep down. I think that, Somewhere in the psyche, Mr. Renner personalized a comic character’s actions. He obviously doesn’t agree with BW’s actions and wanted to verbalize it. The negative manner in which he did suggests he felt a personal “sting” and it triggered something in him… Read more »
Woah. What did I miss? I went to college with Jeremy & did a show wih him & he was polite, funny, fricking amazingly talented & a gentleman. There wasn’t a door around that wasn’t opened by him when a woman was coming through. In fact other ‘guys’ in the show started picking up on his gallantry & started opening doors too. He was also careful with his language and apologized if he slipped up & swore in front of us. I didn’t see whatever it is that have set people off, so I’m just going from my personal experiences… Read more »
He has been marked. It would be better if you just pretended you never knew him. Walk away, just walk away.
WTF is this on about So now we cannot use the word ‘slut’ because some people were called that in the past? Seriously, STFU author. Keep your negative opinions to yourself. What has bra strap snapping got to do with this? To me, it sounds like you have an issue with men due to your childhood. time to move on lady. Slut shaming is not OK? Ok then. Is any shaming OK? Well, not really. So why try and shame Jeremy? People like you need to stop trying to control our thoughts and words with your over-sensitive opinions. It has… Read more »
Some Dude, I’m not shaming Jeremy Renner, I’m calling him out. I’m not asking him to be ashamed, I’m asking him to consider the fact that he is causing harm by further normalizing harmful language.
Joanna: That would be the purist definition of SHAMING.
WOMEN: DON’T STAND UP FOR YOURSELVES WHEN MEN ARE MISOGYNISTS! YOU ARE SHAMING THEM FOR DOING THAT!
Now let’s stop with the sensitivitieees, ok women, black peole and queers? We have had enough of your complaining! Let us believe you are sluts and niggers and faggots and trannies. We are just calling a spade a spade. Stop controlling my brainnnn.
“Seriously, STFU author. Keep your negative opinions to yourself.”
Isn’t that controlling? You’re trying to control free speech and her thoughts!! You are being too ever sensitive about her opinions! Oh noes!
Did any of you folks actually see the movie and understand the background of Blackwidow? She was trained to be an assassin from a very early age. As part of her graduation she and all her fellow graduates were sterilised. Why? Because they didnt want anything to come between the completion of a mission. What could possibly come between ghe completiin of a mission that would require sterilisation? A child. Why would a child be a possibility? Because sex with the subject would be a strong possibility. Infact,that could be the way the missiin needed to unfold so as to… Read more »
so let me get this straight, an actor, from a movie called a fictional character, who by her job description of super spy has to act like a whore(how else do you get info from us dumb males) a whore, and you all lose your shit over it!!! Your also up in arms about how she was depicted in the movie, as a super spy who may at the drop of a hat shag anyone who moves??? Well i am offended at how big muscly blonde guys were portrayed, or big muscly guys with anger issues were portrayed, or evil… Read more »
A male character who is a spy who has to sleep with women to do his job would not receive the same prejudice than a female character doing the same; the same goes if he, at the drop of a hat, “shags” anyone who moves. No “whore”, no “slut” for him. The term “slut” is used against real women in the same way he used for that fictional character, and that is exactly the reason he called her a slut, if it wasn’t a real thing he would not do that. For real people, maybe let’s exercise the brain and… Read more »
Joanna, How much of the issue is generational? My mom would disapprove of my niece going out at night or wearing a short skirt. She would be very vocal about this disapproval. I don’t approve of it either, but had not been vocal. Neither was an issue of misogyny, but rather concern for my niece. Unlike my mom, I didn’t believe that prohibiting her from exploring her sexually was the best way to keep her safe. Young people today (boys and girls) seem to be a lot freer with sexual promiscuity. I’m not sure slut has the same effect. it… Read more »
I am not sure what to think of this article. As a man who grew up with 3 sisters and had a large group of female friends, i remember that women were quite happy calling each other sluts. As a younger man, I never thought anything of it. From my recollection “slut shaming” was common amongst females and not so common amongst males. I am comforted knowing that girls and women have more role models to look up to than Jeremy Renner and the world of superheroes. If you look for it, you will find sexism on both sides of… Read more »
Everyone knows women can also be cruel against each other, just like men are the ones who throw offenses, attack and kill other men the most. A man using the term against a woman doesn’t hold the same weight than when a woman does that against another woman.
Boys and men are calling women sluts and whores all the time, everywhere. You disagree with a woman? all her a misogynistic slur. Oh, you spotted a woman? DIRTY HOOO! Yes, it’s like that for many, many American males.
Maybe American women should start getting back at them.
About intergender violence and whether there is a 1:1 correlation. I could see an argument for either side. If a child attacked someone, would it justify an adult attacking the child? No because the child is much smaller AND the child does not know better. It can’t be argued that women shouldn’t know better so the question is is their smallness sufficient? We look at murder as different from attempted murder because of the effect on the victim so there is some justification there, but we don’t look at an attempted murder that results in a person’s paralysis as a… Read more »
“What people are reacting to is the wrongness of the statement that violence would be an acceptable response to a non-physical provocation.”
If the provocation is simply the utterance of a word, then yes, precisely.
If the man used the word “slut” as a clear prelude to an assault, then she is perfectly justified in acting out of self-defense. Striking first can be justified, if the threat is clear and immanent, word or no word.
“If the provocation is simply the utterance of a word, then yes, precisely. If the man used the word “slut” as a clear prelude to an assault, then she is perfectly justified in acting out of self-defense. Striking first can be justified, if the threat is clear and immanent, word or no word.” And that’s the problem. I didn’t see fear of physical attack in what she said only the word being used. “You can call me a slut (fair warning – you might get punched in the face if you do)” I think it was a throw away line… Read more »
I think that’s a very fair and reasonable assessment.
That was how I meant it, and I appreciate that. (That it’s very often a precursor for being attacked, groped, or put in danger.)
I can’t see NOT feeling like I’m in danger if a man called me a slut to my face. I’ve only ever heard that word before being struck or groped. So…
Personal fear of an attack isn’t a good justification of a preemptive attack. I walk around with an anxiety disorder, when people get close to me I fear an attack but I don’t throw a punch preemptively even if they are yelling. Fear is subjective, there will be people who are in a lot of fear just by having others around, they cannot go throwing punches. Now if the guy said you’re a slut whilst closing distance between you into a close proximity, his verbal abuse AND the body language and movement could be argued to justify a self-defensive punch… Read more »
For real, I can’t even believe the justification given.
“Now if the guy said you’re a slut whilst closing distance between you into a close proximity, his verbal abuse AND the body language and movement could be argued to justify a self-defensive punch but you’d also have to be stopped from leaving the area (backed into a corner). ” And it seems it’s what she just explained. It’s not just the offense alone. “If words alone and a history of violence towards a person can justify throwing a punch then I would be justified in the same logic of punching a few women in the face in the past.”… Read more »
In hindsight, I’ve been thinking that if someone called my sister a slut and she punched him in the face, I would probably clap for her. (And I’d have very little compassion for a guy so stupid as to say “slut” to a woman who’s built like a linebacker.) That would not mean that she was justified, and I would not be an unbiased observer. I would have to tell the truth in a court of law even if my testimony was useful for the prosecution against her. But, a big part of me in that moment would feel like… Read more »
“If I were to start a campaign to end men’s violence against women and instead of saying don’t hit instead used the slogan hit you’re girl like a girl (so as not to do as much damage), would everyone get on board or would there be a problem with that?” Is that dude really for real? Or is he kinda intellectually numb? For real. Saying men are entitled to sex in marriage. Saying how misogyny is the product of misandry and so women can’t complain if they aren’t being respected or even not seen as human by men. And now… Read more »
I have a different take on this topic. Historically, particular words carry with them very hurtful connotations – the n-word, slut, perv, etc What made them hurtful was the intent behind the delivery. What makes them hurtful is the history of the intent behind the delivery. We also know that language/words morph and evolve. This fact is near inevitable. Lately, “thug” has emerged as a word with malintent. Many teens today use the n-word wantonly to describe friends more so than foes. I view humor as a mechanism of inevitable language evolution and as such, feel it should be granted… Read more »
replace the actor with the actress and ask yourself is that ok? if yes, then you need to get over yourself.
+1 Gold Medal for Joanna for winning the Oppression Olympics.
Dude, the Oppression Olympics is for when people talk about who has it worse. There is not a single mention of that in this post. I literally mentioned an issue facing women. I didn’t say “women have it worse”.
There have only ever been 3 times in which a woman has hit me. I dealt with them in the same way that I have dealt with violent men.
Wait did everyone miss the part where he said that he would be a slut if he slept with that many avengers? So in fact he was not making a sexist statement he was making a human statement.
“Slut” hasn’t been systematically used to oppress men for generations, so it’s not the same. There are other words used to defame and harm men for generations that wouldn’t harm women as much if they said it about themselves. IE “Creep” – I’m not saying creep is as bad as slut, but I am saying that if I said, “OMG I’m such a creep” it would not have the same meaning and impact as if I said, “OMG that guy is such a creep.” That’s just one example. The reality is, “slut” is gendered in that it means “a promiscuous… Read more »
Since ballgame weighed in here, I”m actually super interested in his take on this.
I have some conflicted thoughts about this, Joanna. My instinct would be to disagree with your post. I hate the excessive policing of language and the dominance of ‘take down culture’ that seems so prevalent in online media. It seemed like Jeremy was just making an offhand fatigue-born jokey remark* that shouldn’t be weighed down with a lot of social import. (I’m not advancing these thoughts as arguments, just describing my gut reaction to the whole thing.) OTOH, I’m keenly aware of the fact that I’ve never felt the sting of this particular slur. If Jeremy had used the term… Read more »
Thanks. And agree about the ET interview. It seemed ironic and maybe like a joke on society. I didn’t think much of it, honestly, and thought NOTHING of it after the apology. This, though… Nope.
And I really appreciate this. I miss the days when we used to communicate well and happy to have this conversation with you .
Nothing to see here.
It doesn’t matter to me if the character is real or fictional. I could and have taken offense at things done to fictional characters. Even calling a woman a slut doesn’t always mean misogyny. It sometimes depends on how well you know them and the context in which you say it. I suspect that they felt some familiarity with Scarlet Johansson and the Black Widow character. The problem is that he spoke out of his circle.
Sounded like an in-house joke, I wouldn’t be surprised if Scarlett laughed her ass off at it.
In the original, was it implied that Black Widow was two-timing/cheating or just being promiscuous but not cheating?
The clip doesn’t back up your point. He said that anyone sleeping with that “many” people would be a slut, and he uses himself and Conan – both males – as examples.
But of course, women are offended, so let’s only focus on how an issue is affecting them and nothing else, as per.
Why in the world did this article not indicate that REAL LIFE men were referred to as sluts if behaving in a certain manner? Why did it focus on how a fictional character got called a slut? Why weren’t the feelings or at least the dignity of men taken into account?
The feelings of the two men in the case weren’t hurt as we can see in the video.
Tell us how men being called “sluts” and “whores” is systematic and is affecting them oh so much and how they can’t take that anymore. Tell us how that goes the very same way against women and men. Tell us how women focusing on something that not only offends, but hurts them, is something that should not be happening, and how nothing that hurts them should be discussed without focusing on men as well and actually lying that men experience the same and at the same rate.
There might be a reasonable argument against what Joanna has written here, Spoonwood … but you’re not making it. If someone were to refer to a fictional African American character as a n*****, many people would find that to be extremely offensive, for very good reason. If a white person were to call an African American the n-word to their face, yes, that might lead to a violent response. So the bases of your argument here — that references to fictional characters should get a pass, as should ‘single word’ characterizations — are not persuasive. Now I don’t think the… Read more »
“If someone were to refer to a fictional African American character as a n*****, many people would find that to be extremely offensive, for very good reason.” No, I do NOT agree that they would find that offensive for good reason. In fact, in historical fiction the use of the term that you have referred to is necessary. And the term is also necessary to reflect how terms get used in current social situations. The term is also used by black people to refer to themselves, and thus it is not inherently offensive, just as the term “slut” is not… Read more »
Thanks, ballgame!
Yes, I agree that “slut” is not on par with the N-word.
There are certainly similarities, but I find saying one word is just the same as another, or one oppression is the same as the other is just a losing game.
“slut’ the word may not be on a par with the ‘n’ word- but the debasing and victimization of women sure is- and world-wide and very much so in the media now- in games and movies- all moves to accept being controlled- raped- beaten- love the article- always love truth with a good humor chaser- thank you
Part of me: I agree, Joanna. I think women’s sexuality should be celebrated and not discouraged by such demonization. I mean, it’s the whole Madonna/whore thing, isn’t it? Do men really believe that women should have no sexual desire until they meet that one guy, and then have passionate desire only for him? It’s foolish. I want what’s natural and healthy for women to be; most likely, that’s exactly what fits with what’s most natural and healthy for men, anyway. Part of me: Come on, Joanna. Yes, there is often truth, or revelation, in humor. On the other hand, sometimes… Read more »
P.S.: reading the negative comments above, I think they are being even more overly-sensitive than you, Joanna. So I’ll add that I DO definitely value your opinion, even the parts I don’t completely agree with.
Thanks, Paul.
I don’t think Renner IS using the joke to lampoon society’s perception of what a slut is. All he does is say that he’d call a guy who did the same thing a slut too.
Thing is, I doubt he would. When we see a guy banging a bunch of women in a film (i.e. James Bond) we call him a Real Man or a hero.
When we see women banging a lot of guys, we call her a slut. It’s pretty ridiculous. Renner is WAY off.
Joanna: That is because is VERY VERY VERY easy for a woman to bang a bunch of guys, not so easy for a guy. If someone like Einstein comes up with a formula to calc the speed of light we call them a genius, if someone comes up with a formula to calc how to add any two numbers together, we don’t , WHY because one is really hard to do one isn’t.
No clue how that applies here. And I know loads of guys who have banged a ton of women.
They’re trying to explain why the double standard exists.
Men are still expected on the whole to initiate, which is seen as harder to do consistently than passively waiting for approaches to be made, given the levels of active rejection involved for the guy.
Women who are approached only have to say yes, which is considerably easier.
In this case, I agree with Joanna. (It happens!) There is clearly a whole range of double standards that are all interconnected. This is just one of the most blatant ones: “slut” when women do it but ”successful” when men do it. What’s paradoxical is that there are all kinds of stereotypes about how dirty, filthy, and gross men are (snakes and snails and puppy dog tails), and how women are naturally clean and neat. EXCEPT that a man who has lots of sex partners is rarely considered “skanky” or disease-ridden, while this is the stereotype of women who sleep… Read more »
It’s very easy for anyone with no high standards. Still calling a man a “hero” for that and worse, calling a woman something horrible for the same thing, has no sense at all. @OirishM “They’re trying to explain why the double standard exists.” Oh, you don’t start with that. The double standard has always been there and goes even for the women who “initiates”. You don’t come and try to rationalize how double standards – that hurt and humiliate women – are somewhat okay. Women to be approached have to put a lot of effort into their looks, unless they… Read more »
I don’t need your permission to post anything, and I wasn’t saying the standard was ok.
It’s just a bit tiresome seeing women making the situation/problem all about them, is all. Men have the problem of their gender role being the one where they’re expected to shoulder rejection more.
“And lastly, although some men are guilty of judging and labeling some women as sluts, if I had to bet on it, I’d bet women slut-shame twice as much as men.” That’s not the experience of many, many women. Even foreign women; I have been called a “slut” and all the other misogynistic terms many of you American men love calling us so many times I lost the count. And have been called it for just being a woman. And a woman going like that against another woman has a total different weight than when a man goes against a… Read more »
This article is offensive. It is offensive in that it equates a fictional woman with real women. The perspective of the author implies that fictional women should get taken as seriously as real women do. This makes no sense at all, and is offensive to real women by turning them into cariarctures. Misogyny is hatred of women, and not hatred of cariactures. The article is further offensive in that it insinuates that restrictions on humor are acceptable according to the author’s standards. It is hurtful and limiting to humorists that they should have to imply that instead of trying to… Read more »
Oh, STFU. By your logic, we should be fine with movies that make rape look funny, or racism look cool, or that makes cutting off a man’s penis seem totally okay. We criticize what is in movies or on TV because it often impacts what people think is acceptable in the real world. They have the right to say what they want, and the right to create whatever kind of art they want, and we all have the right to criticize it and ask them to stop if it bothers us.
Well yeah you should be. Movies aren’t real, if you take anything you see in a movie seriously you need to go and get some professional mental health assistance. From the way you got so offended by something posted on a message board tells me that you need to book an appointment today.
I think I understand where she’s coming from, and I think the offensiveness of the word slut goes beyond whether the woman is real or not. I wouldn’t say that a racial slur is okay because it refers to a character played by Denzel Washington and not a real person. It’s still a racist word. However, I totally agree with you about the “punch in the face” comment. The test of that is to switch genders and listen to how that sounds. I would consider it totally misogynistic for a man to say “any woman who calls me ____ will… Read more »
Switch genders is always ridiculous.
It’s not a 1:1 wellokaythen, and you’re smart enough to know that.
I can’t even address the rest. So ridiculous. I didn’t say I WOULD punch him in the face but I might. Depends upon if I felt I needed to for my own safety.
Why isn’t it 1:1? Is that your underlying sexism showing through? Either you’re joking with the line about punching a man in the face, or you’re serious. Being serious means you seriously think it’s acceptable to be physically violent to a man for calling you a slut? A single punch, even from a woman (women are not fragile little things with no strength) can KILL. If you were joking about the violence then it’s pretty messed up to complain about sexism n slut shaming, only to joke about violence against men/whoever says it. If someone calls you a slut, then… Read more »
Can we all please stop with the “you should know better” stuff?
It’s petty and meaningless for discussion every time anyone says it, male or female.
I just happen to know that you are a highly intelligent guy.
Seriously though, can you address my point?
“Switch genders is always ridiculous. ” Then you’re basically saying that it’s acceptable for women to have a different standard than men. That is sexist, and worthy of ridicule, because it treats people on the basis of an irrelevant characteristic. Gender doesn’t cause very many things, and it certainly doesn’t make it acceptable for men to get hit. And you’re smart enough to know that you are making a sexist statement and that your trying to play it off as not “1:1” is irrelevant. “Depends upon if I felt I needed to for my own safety.” You know better than… Read more »
Switching genders is clearly not *always* ridiculous. People on this site do the gender flip test all the time, from a variety of different perspectives. Even if (hypothetically) it doesn’t apply to every situation, it seems a little extreme to get rid of it entirely. The best, most common example:
“How would you like it if a woman did that to you?”
If we ditch the gender flip test entirely, then that means no one should ever ask that question again.
I’ll keep an open mind, to see what the reasoning is here. I accept the possibility that I am wrong, so let’s see what we’re disagreeing about. Let’s say that it is not a 1-to-1 correspondence, that a man punching a woman in the face because of a word she said is not the same as a woman punching a man in the face for a word he said. If so, then what is the difference, and how big is the difference? If the argument is about physical size and strength – Women are perfectly capable of causing damage with… Read more »
I would say height/ weight portion, the reason many get offended when a man punches a woman is because typically men are physically larger than the average woman therefore in a physical fight the odds are greatly skewed in favor of the man throwing punches. That being said if a man and woman were in the same weight class (like boxers) the odds of the outcome would be more even
So why not make it a comparison based on the actual variable, strength, rather than an irrelevant variable, gender?
Surely we should be saying “strong people shouldn’t hit weak people”?
But then that sounds much more obviously unfair – so we come back to the same point, it’s not ok to hit anyone.
“So why not make it a comparison based on the actual variable, strength, rather than an irrelevant variable, gender?”
Gender is not irrelevant, as men in general are stronger than women in general – and that is the reason people generalize gender when talking about it. And it means just that: “strong people shouldn’t hit weak people”. That doesn’t mean weaker people should hit stronger people. That only means stronger people should be even more careful, as it’s very cowardly to go against someone who could not even stand a chance.
Might want to have specified that to begin with, but I don’t really think simply calling you a slut would be enough to constitute a threat.
Given that threat narratives against men are composed at the drop of a hat – if we sit the wrong way on a train, for example – this just seems like more of the same.
Isn’t the assumption that a random man is violent a form of bigotry? A small percentage of men that have a tendency towards being violent vs. the vast majority of men that are innocent of that charge. Is it just that the larger group is labeled do to the actions of a small minority?
Uh huh.
And, meanwhile, people are sending Joss Whedon (an actual, real-live flesh and blood person) death threats because of something that got them upset in the new Avengers movie.
Of course, there won’t be an article about that here, will there? Because a white male getting sent death threats online from feminists and women doesn’t fit your narrative, does it?
But no, do go on about the precious feelings of a fictional character.
How the hell did you know they were “feminists”. This is a joke right?
This article is on point. Slut-shaming is bad. In fact, there’s a very problematic website on the internet called 4chan that engages in these types of problematic behaviors. Me, personally, I would never offend m’lady in such an awful manner. It saddens me that I’m even having to write this comment. I tip my fedora to you, Joanne. Brilliant article.
I would love to show you the proof of why I believe he was attacked by feminists. The mods, apparently, won’t let me.
8ball did you actually read the article? I believe I addressed that she’s fictional. Even in the subtitle.
That you handwaved it doesn’t change the fact we’re talking about a fictional character.
There already have been numerous articles about it. Just use Google. It’s an effective tool for finding out things that you don’t know anything about. And hopefully the Good Men Project will do an article about it. Threatened violence against anyone is wrong. Online bullying is wrong and, as we all know. can be devastating for the person being maligned or threatened. I’m interested on your thoughts about this part of Joanna’s article…. “And I get you’re not calling me a slut. But what you’re doing is further reinforcing that it’s okay to call women who like sex, or women… Read more »
Cass, I’m a male victim of an abusive female. and yet AND YET after she bashed me upside the head with a blunt object and gave me stitches, I still got disapproving looks from certain kinds of people when I referred to her as a bitch. She made me bleed yet heaven forfend I insult her or anything. So yes, you’re damned right I think there are times that women deserve to be insulted, “historical context” or not. On this very site there are articles defending the use of creep on men, yet I couldn’t call my *physically* abusive Ex… Read more »
And “douchebag”.
8Ball, I’m sorry for the abuse you’ve had to live through. That is AWFUL.
I hope you are finding the support you need to find healing. Sending you lots of support for that.
Maybe you could call her a neutral insult, instead of a misogynistic term (bitch), or racial (nigger, if the person in case is black) or homophobic (faggo/dyke/tranny, if the person in case is queer). If you insult someone using sexism, homophobia or racism, hystorical context always has weight and you ARE reinforcing it and being against everyone else of that same group as well. “Slut” is all about shaming women for not being asexual. Anyone civilized enough wouldn’d “reserve” it for anyone in any context. It’s very difficult to make it neutral, too, as in North America and many other… Read more »
+1
Like with the gamergate debacle where the gamergaters who had death threats against them didn’t seem to matter to mainstream news, cuz who cares about the “bad guys” right?
Wake up for once and get over yourself. The article is not talking about about any “fictional character feelings”. Maybe you’re just THAT ignorant, but I doubt it; you know what this article is about. You may think that is nothing, after all that type of prejudice isn’t against you (or other men), so why would that even matter, right? But that’s the thing: half of the population is composed of women, so their problems also matter. If you have nothing to add to try to help, maybe stfu once is a while would be the best option. You are… Read more »
Lola, you’re a dumbass.
Was that “gender neutral” enough for you? 🙂