Mark D. White challenges a Wall Street Journal article that uses tired and insulting clichés about men and sex.
Elizabeth Bernstein’s recent article in The Wall Street Journal entitled “How Often Should Married Couples Have Sex?” amasses psychological research to discuss the age-old problem of differing sex drives between married men and women. (In case you’re wondering, she doesn’t answer the question in the title.) As an example, she presents the story of Chris and Afton Mowers, who have been married for ten years, during which Chris has struggled to inspire Afton to have more sex.
Theirs is not an unusual story, certainly, but the details of it belie some of the research explained in the article, most of which provides a depressingly reductionist view of how men think about sex in their relationships. I take no issue with the research itself, but as presented it paints an incomplete and inaccurate picture of male sexuality.
To begin, Bernstein writes that:
Increasingly, experts believe sex is a more emotional experience for men than for women. Men tend to express feelings with actions, not words. Unlike a lot of women, they probably don’t have heart-to-heart chats with everyone from their best friend to the bus driver, and they often limit hugs and physical affection to their immediate family.
It is encouraging that men are acknowledged as experiencing sex emotionally, although I think it’s a matter of experiencing it differently rather than simply “more.” But Bernstein then resorts to the trope of “men act, women talk,” which is nicely contradicted by the Mowers’ story: Chris tries to engage Afton in discussion about their sex life but Afton is reluctant (following a miscarriage early in their marriage).
The next paragraph, though, deflates any recognition of the rich inner lives of men that we may have hoped for from the article:
No wonder they miss sex when it disappears. It’s a way for them to be aggressive and manly but also tender and vulnerable. “For some men, sex may be their primary way of communicating and expressing intimacy,” says Justin Lehmiller, a Harvard University social psychologist who studies sexuality. Taking away sex “takes away their primary emotional outlet.”
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So for men, sex is “a way of them to be aggressive and manly,” “their primary way of communicating and expressing intimacy,” and “their primary emotional outlet.” (Wow.)
Again, Chris Mower provides a wonderful counterexample to this—as if one were needed. While he does say that “for me to feel good about myself, I needed her to have sex with me. Otherwise I thought she didn’t love me,” he also says, when he comments on the miscarriage and the sexual lull that followed, “Here was an opportunity to get to know my spouse on an intimate level, yet neither of us was opening up.” Here is a man who values sex for many reasons but doesn’t seem to rely on it as his primary way of connecting with his wife emotionally—just one of many.
According to therapist Esther Parel (as paraphrased and quoted in the article):
Men, much more than women, relate to a partner through sex… as evidenced by their fear of rejection, concerns about performance and desire to please. “When a man gets depressed because he’s not being touched, it’s just like the little boy who stands in his crib and cries to be picked up,” she says. “He is experiencing emotional deprivation.”
And here I thought touch was important to everyone—shows how much I know! What’s more, “fear of rejection, concerns about performance and desire to please” do not necessarily point to the claim that men rely on sex more than women do to relate, and are in fact common to both men and women, though again in different ways. (And isn’t a desire to please is a good thing?)
Many couples in long-term relationships have problems with sexual compatibility along any number of dimensions, one of them being frequency (and not always with the man desiring more frequent sex than the woman). But it doesn’t help to trot out tired and insulting clichés about men—especially when the central example in the article paints a much more nuanced picture.
Photo: Flickr/futurestreet
Married 46 years and my husband didn’t want any sex from me or any one else. We had sex once on our wedding night and hated and swore never again would he have any thing to do with sex and me. We have never slept together or had a meal together. I wasted my life and really don’t care about him or any other man. They are all nasty, liying monsters.
And how the heck did this one pass the muster?
I don’t know if it’s fear or not why women might be afraid of men or what. I know I’m successful and attractive and I get hit on all the time by women, they approach me. Some interesting thoughts on this article though.
Hi Tim You have some strange ideas about men. If your hypotheses was correct,then no man could be both sexually attractive and successful in society at the same time (and worthy of marriage.) Your writing implies that women live double life’s. That they have a secret sex life with some guys they don’t want to marry. Some dark hidden forbidden sex with X…… And then an official sex life with ordinary boring men that they cohabit with or are married to. WHO are these men women have their forbidden wild sex life with? Are they your buddies that brag about… Read more »
Tim
Sorry about my typos
Women only marry men that want to marry them.
Hi Tim You write:”surprised you’ve never heard women saying how they are not interested in good looks and just want a guy who can be a good husband, father and a provider, one who is caring, supportive etc, makes her laugh and so on. They are not describing a guy they fancy having wild passionate sex with. They are not describing guys they truly desire sexually. Because let me assure you desire is not conditional upon the things they mention.” It the truth. None of my women friends have told me that they married men they were not attracted to.… Read more »
John
Excuse my typos
I wanted to write :” when old men marry younger women”
I fear I am a little bit dyslectic and totally blind to my mis spellings.
Hi John If this is what these women tells us,then I believe you. And I will add that it is cruel to marry a man you do not want to make love to,and are attracted to. It is cruel. In my social circle I have two couples where the man refuse to have sex. But they do not want a divorce. So they live together like brother and sister. The women are unhappy about this. If we could look into all marriages ( and bedrooms) we would be surprised. And one last word. When old men marry you women I… Read more »
Hi Iben “I confess I have often wondered about that. But maybe theses men are fantastic lovers?” No matter how good these men are in bed, without physical attraction it wont matter. Its no different for women. These women want to sacrifice their sex life in order for better deal , better life = money ( for her and for her family ) , cars, luxury goods, ( hermes birkin, luis vuitton, gucci bamboo??? ) good education for their children, safety, and elite social life . Sex is really really small things compare to all that. Really, its not puzzling… Read more »
Hi John Marriage is a strange instution. I am not cut out for marriage. One try was enough for me…. But like you I do understand why a person ,man or woman want security ( and more) for their children and themselves. My mother married the most handsome man she could find, and never had any security in her life. Nor did I as his daughter. And I am not surprised when women from Russia and Thailand marry men in my country that is not so lucky with women. These women get a new start in life,and maybe even a… Read more »
Sorry Steve, but I dont really believe that male and female have this different rules for attraction. Yes in general men are easier to feel attracted to women physically, but clearly there are lots of influence in our society that make us feel that, for example the objectification in media and the traditional gender roles and stereotypes. If women feel attraction emotionally not physically, why so many young girls are crazy for good looking male singers and actors? So many young girls crazy for Justin Bieber, Robert Pattinson, Taylor Lautner, Ryan Gosling, Channing Tatum, etc. They dont know their real… Read more »
Hi Tim Are you sure this has never been a focus of research ? And I agree with you about one night stands and a fling! But what if you looked at the men that succeeds in their long term relationship with women. Married or cohabiting. Do you think they are better looking or more handsome than the average Joe? Can you design a research project and test your hypotheses? And how about taking a trip to other countries and see how women respond to you there. I am serious. If my brother or son had difficulties finding a woman… Read more »
The word is intersex not middle sex.
I rembered the novel :” middlesex” that is about interesex persons .
Hi Tim
You ask :”So what do the sexually rejected men not get?”
Honestly Tim.
I think they don’t get that attraction is more than looks or a fat wallet.
And the men that only are out looking for one night stands will not teach you what it is to be attractive.
Do all the women leave him after one night?
Hi Iben,
Yes, I agree that attraction is more than looks and/or a fat wallet.
However, to get a chance to display whatever “more” you have on offer, you’ve got to grab someone’s attention. And this is so much easier if you have the looks, or “charisma”.
There are research that show that women have a more narrow definition about what is attractive. Hence more men are rejected on the first impression alone, with a very slim chance to redeem themselves.
Hi FlyingKal,
I’ve found that these 3 things are an important part of male attractiveness. I wonder if we can get some ladies to comment.
1. Self-confidence
2. Social adeptness and awareness
3. Doesn’t need women…but “desires and respects” them
I’m not a lady but I want to comment. Those all are also female attractiveness to me. So I think those list are about people attractiveness not male attractiveness. I also want confident women, women who have social adeptness and awareness, and also women who desires and respect men.
Sorry I have to bring this issue again, but I think if we want to achieve true equality, we should stop spreading gender specific traits. Because most of all are just plain myth. We are really same creature.
Hi John, I totally agree that those same 3 traits are attractive in women. But that doesn’t mean we are the SAME. We ARE EQUAL beings…but SO not the same. If a woman was showing those 3 traits in a very MASCULINE way, I (maybe you too?) would not be attracted to her. If a man is showing those 3 traits in a very FEMININE way, he would not be considered attractive to women. This may be what Iben was referring to regarding the “sexless” impression some women get of men. Women are attracted to non-needy men who show a… Read more »
Steve, I pretty much agree. However, I think there’s (at least) one variable missing in your list, an attribute or trait that makes a person be seen in a company. You know like there’s a group of people talking, there’s always one or two that is talking the most. And it doesn’t have to do with social adeptness and awareness, cause more often than not they doesn’t seem to know what they are talking about. Yet they always seem to get most if not all of the attention, at least from the women. And they aren’t afraid to hush, freeze… Read more »
I agree, FlyingKal. Sometimes the obnoxious guys are perceived by women as cocky, confident, and even sexually competent. If they really are just jerks, though, women will normally move away from them. But the guy in the crowd who really IS confident and sexually competent often says the least. But when he does talk, it is something of substance and he does NOT care if others agree with him. He can be interested without having to be interesting. He’s kind enough and considerate enough, but he just doesn’t need the attention of affirmation of those in the crowd. Women NOTICE… Read more »
Hi Steve,
Just a final word about this, because I’m gonna be away from the keyboard for 2 weeks.
I generally agree with you about Self-confidence, Social adeptness and awareness, and being the man you want to be. But I just don’t think that it works for everybody, in regards to attracting women.
Maybe our looks have a way of contradicting our display of self-confidence, sometimes, I don’t know.
But sometimes, often, the woman just moves on to the next obnoxious guy instead of moving away…
Clarification:
“I just don’t think that it works for everybody” means that it’s my experience, both personally and among a couple of my friends.
Give us the reference to that research.
Often psychologist do this kind of research using photos of men and women. It is obviously cost effective.
But when you look at photo you will never see charm, energy,smell, and many other qualities that makes a person attractive to others.
Some look good on photos ,that is all
. We do not fall in love with photos.
So if you want me to take research about this seriously it must be based on other methods.
Iben Women actually are a lot more unforgiving on looks than men. Where men find a large proportion of women physically appealing atleast to some extent, women find a very small percentage of men to have an physical appeal and find the rest unattractive. This survey tells us that women find 80% of men to be physically unattractive. While men only find 20% of women to have no physical appeal. http://cdn.okcimg.com/blog/your_looks_and_inbox/Female-Messaging-Curve.png http://cdn.okcimg.com/blog/your_looks_and_inbox/Male-Messaging-Curve.png This is quite compatible with my personal observations. When I go to a college campus, I easily find 70-80% of girls there good enough. Most guys give me… Read more »
Hi Tim Thank you. You should have included more than the graphics. This one is hard to read. Not up to standards the way I was though to set it up. But I see your point. Still I refuse to take a survey of American college students in say year 2000 as a proof of female desire world wide. Imagine a society where female sexuality is not repressed but healthy. Because when you talk about “attractive” here I guess you mean desirable as lover,husband, boyfriend, sex partner? Not simply esthetically pleasing to the eye? Do you honestly believe women that… Read more »
Iben I agree that its just a survey, but the results are so eye-opening that I’m surprised not much scientific thought has gone into exploring and understanding this phenomenon further. I hope someday a very large scale experiment using scientific methods is carried out to find out the truth. I am willing to bet that the results of such a study would conclude that women indeed find a much much smaller proportion of men attractive, than vice versa. Attraction between the men and women is more than what happens the first second we look at each other It is such… Read more »
Tim wrote: “It is such a huge disadvantage to men in the game of attraction, courtship that most of them cannot be attractive to women merely on the basis of their appearance. It means men have one less thing to offer to women. It means men are less attractive to women than vice versa. It explains us why men feel the dating norms are hugely biased in favor of women. It explains why men have to put in more effort into attracting women. It explains why women say that with most men they need time to grow into them and… Read more »
Tim:
This is a bit academic ,but interesting.
http://www.academia.edu/1443743/Female_adolescents_sexual_empowerment_and_desire_A_missing_discourse_of_gender_inequity
To show the complexity of the issue of female desire.
And that is what we are talking about is it not?
And the men that only are out looking for one night stands will not teach you what it is to be attractive. Do all the women leave him after one night?
Really. Then who can teach what it takes to be attractive to women?
The married guy who only dated one or 2 women in his life?
The men who are attractive are the ones who have plenty of dating/sexual opportunities. …the ones who have women coming to them easily.
Hi Flyingkal
Steve is on to some thing important.
I do not have a super long list demands. The fact is I easily get exploited.
My first boyfriend left me because I was ” too kind” Today I understand what he meant.
Steve is on to some thing.
Some women will disagree . But for me his ideas look brilliant !! Honestly.
Hi John
Yes I think men can see suppressed sexuality.
What environment are you in since it is your experience that women claim they are better than men?
This is 2013.
We are past that stage here. It is not an issue.
Hi John I have even asked men if they can read feelngs in other persons eyes. A shorts time ago I took an online test to see if my brain is female or male. You can take the test BBC test male female brain. It was there I read that this ability was stronger in women usually. And some thing are men better at. Archy took the test. He had 100% perfect score to see objects in 3 D seen from different angels. I had 0% correct. Archy is not a trained architect or imgeneer . He is a man.… Read more »
Hi John
I followed the long debate on the thread about the woman that wrote a letter to her son about consent.
It was not anger I saw there,it was worse. And it never stopped.
Maybe all those men had been raped. Maybe.
After that thread I know some can become angry and try not to trigger it.
I do not want to invalidate men’s feelings of hurt. But the comments on that thread surprised me.
Hi John Thank’s for clarifying. You are absolutely right. Women are not better than men. But where I live we do not have this heated debate between men and women. Men look at women here and I have never heard any women complain. A Russian friends complained that men her look to little and flirt to little. I live in a monarch with a princess that claims she can talk with horses and angels. Most of us smile and say :” really?”. Men also smile. When she told how angels visited her and left their fethers , a bishop asked… Read more »
Iben,
With all due respect, I think you are mixing apples and oranges here.
A celebrity claiming to see ghosts and angels is quite a different ballgame than someone claiming to have a natural ability to read the minds of other people.
Also, I’ve seen plenty of debate around feminism around here as well, so it’s not like it doesn’t exist. Maybe it’s just gotten less coverage. Or the men, at least more of them, haven’t had the interest in speaking up. I agree that it’s not as heated as in others places, but it’s not like it doesn’t exist.
Who say they can read other persons MINDS?
I don’t!
I wrote that I can see FEELINGS in a man eyes,like tenderness,longing, warmth, and some not so nice feelings.
To claim that one has supernatural ability to read minds is something else.
I never said I was psychic.
I never said women are psychic.
Why is this a problem ? Is it your goal to hide all your feelings from women?
I am sure you can succeed if that is what you want.
Hi Ajay As a woman many inches shorter than you I am more comfortable with medium size men than large ones. I am sorry I express myself unclear. I write about my own fears of men. Why you are single is impossible for even to guess. You feel that women see you as umattractive. It takes many words to decribe the fear some woman have of men. Today I don’t have the time. I am more than willing to be 100% open about EVERYTHING if that can help a man. Men on GMP tell openly about their life and feelings… Read more »
@Steve Horsmon:
Apology accepted. Thanks. 🙂
Another thing I thought about. You wrote “Sex and intimacy is NOT a 50/50 effort.”
I think this is a statement that a lot of people, both men and women, will probably misinterpret to suit their own agenda.
I can’t court a woman who doesn’t give at least some kind of positive feedback, but I’m pretty sure I didn’t read it the way you intended.
Hi Mattias
I have been thinking about your words and what I wrote about fear.
Take time to read this all the way to the end.
The end conclusion may come as a surprise to you.
Interesting about female desire and ” the long history of fear”.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/magazine/25desire-t.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1
Hi Matthias . You write: “please stop trying to discount the importance of looks and other aspects of attractiveness. Please stop trying to portray that most men don’t attract women simply because they lack in these aspects” You are right! I should not. I have had a deep fear of men and violence in periods of my life based on earlier experience. This was personal and I should not have expressed myself this way. Today I have looked online for info about this phenomena in my own country. Do we have a group of men that women reject? I find… Read more »
and yes on another myth that female have superior ability that can see supressed sexuality. Do you think men cant do that?
Steve. wow. I need to find a way to get my boyfriend to read what you’ve written. so happy to see what you have included in your definition of masculinity. my boyfriend so wants to move our relationship forward… and does not understand my hesitance about moving in together and discussing more permanence. I wish I could get him to understand how much of a difference an emotional bond would make and why without a feeling of that I simply can’t move forward. it would make. all the difference in the world. I don’t think he understands what this means,… Read more »
Hi Piiper, I always say that if a person (man/woman) says that they “are who they are” and can’t be any better, then they will attract others into their life with the same LOW expectations of them. Your BF needs a wake up call that many times does not come to man until he has experienced the pain of loss. It all starts with a person’s desire to deeply understand another and an intention to meet their needs. Claiming that you’re done growing (take me as I am) before age 30 is a red flag in my opinion. Marriage doesn’t… Read more »
I think that people, men and women both, owning up to what they are really attracted to from the beginning instead of hiding under a blanket of political correctness (or maybe for a hidden agenda), would be a good start..
Hi Mark
Thank you writing this.
Lets get rid of all myths about male and female sexualty.
yeah and you said how women have supernatural abilities at reading eys ( you can but its not because youre a woman ). Ironic isnt it? Its okay to bring myth when it is about female superiority ( female is more caring, not shallow, only look at personality, HAVE SUPERNATURAL ABILTY ) but its not okay when its about male superiority.
Nice job, Mark. It’s good to see an intelligent challenge to old, unhelpful stereotypes. In my work with male clients addressing intimacy issues and unhappy wives, one key is this. When a man primarily relies on sex as his barometer of marital health and as a source of his own validation and “good feelings”, he faces more and more rejection. In general, wives are not attracted to this man. Women (even wives in a 20 yr. marriage) are much more interested, attracted to, and desirous of a husband who already has a strong masculine sense of his own value, doesn’t… Read more »
Goodguy … have you been talking to my wife? I couldn’t have said it better. And with 39 years under our belts, I can easily agree with everything you said.
I used to feel competent and confident in the bedroom, until the incessant rejection and nose-dive of my wife’s sex drive. And if a stranger knocked on my door one evening while on a business trip… no doubt, I’d be that guy again. I was for years before I met her and for a few years after we met and married. He’s still in there. Not saying I would or should let him out to have at a strange woman, just that it’s a two way street. I get that the ways I’ve dealt with rejection have made me less… Read more »
justwondering, Hope you don’t think I’m “pooh-poohing” your and every man’s common experience. I certainly joined you in the exact same experience at one point. My guidance to the men I coach has to do with their own acceptance of living within the cliche they have allowed to happen. We are men. We get to make our own choices on how we respond to things. We don’t have to wallow in our cliche and whine to our friends about it. I know this sounds a little harsh, but hear me out. You said you USED to feel confident and competent… Read more »
I don’t really know how to put this, but for a lack of better words, I think that women in general want to be desired but not “chased”.
But there’s a fine line between the two. Most men don’t know where it is, and those who find it most often does it by luck (social and/or genetical).
FlyingKal – beautiful!! I could not agree more!
That “fine line” you speak of is CRITICAL as a man learns to improve his masculinity. It IS teachable and learnable! When you do, women know it and love it!
Stay or go, that’s what it comes down to, doesn’t it?
I often feel like the despondency comes from a fear of leaving the comfort of an unfulfilling relationship. Sometimes people just aren’t sexually compatible, and when you confront that reality “stay or go” is ultimately the question you need to ask yourself. Dan Savage calls this “the price of admission.” Does the relationship provide you with enough other benefits that you’re willing to forego your sexual desires? If not, you have your answer.
Yes, I agree. FEAR is the #1 reason that men refuse or resist the process of changing themselves to be the man they are meant to be. They are afraid of her reaction, afraid of an unknown future, afraid of never having sex again, afraid of their own uncertainty about who they are and where they stand. A man MUST resolve these fear issues by getting absolute CLARITY on who he WILL become no matter what she chooses to do. He needs to understand that once he get this, his good IS coming regardless of her reactions. Sexual “incompatibility” is… Read more »
Hi Steve
Wow!
I will keep this my folder named ” keep for life”.
Iben, please don’t hide it in a folder. Put your commitments to change yourself somewhere you can see them every morning.
I’ll tell my guys to have a plan every morning before your feet hit the floor. This plan should be at least one thing you will do today to light up her life.
For tips, subscribe to my “5 Secrets of an Unhappy Wife” report. It’s free and full of “truths” we need to own. Good luck, buddy! You’re worth the work!
Steve
Hi Steve
:))))
I am a woman.
Danish name.
You could have saved my marriage!
Slowly my husband started to resent me because I said no to sex when I was not attracted to him. I was not able to express in words what I felt. You do it perfectly!
He never saw himself,but punished me.
I will keep this in a file for my future partner,:)))
I love it.
Iben, as I hope you see, my perspective applies EQUALLY to women. You seem to be confirming (once again) that you really need a man to model the right behavior FIRST and then YOU are more than willing to “jump in” with him. Am I right?
Steve
@Iben… “Slowly my husband started to resent me because I said no to sex when I was not attracted to him.” I spent over 10+ years in a sexless marriage. The resentment towards my wife (now ex wife) grew to such a level at times it bordered on outright hatred. It changed who I was as a person. So, I decided to end the marriage. What continues to baffle me is just why do so many married women in America stop having sex with their husbands? Why do so many women marry men whom they were NEVER sexually attracted? After… Read more »
Hi Jules It takes more than a few sentences to answer your question and make you understand would mean that i had to write a whole book. It is complicated. You ask why women stop having sex with their husbands,and why they marry someone they are not attracted to. Well do women marry men they are not attracted to? Do they? And do some men marry primarily to have sex? My husband married for sex. He told me when he left him. He never supported me economically, so I did not marry for money. I married to have a family,a… Read more »
Iben, yes many many women around the world do marry men they are not attracted to. Just because you dont feel this or other women dont told you this doesnt men its not true. Do you really think young pretty women who marry old millionaire do really prefer him sexually than young handsome guys around their age ( who are also nice and smart ) ??? I dont think so. And not only gold diggers, many women do marry men they are in love but not physically attracted to. Yes women are visual creatures too ( thats why young girls… Read more »
Iben And I can not answer your question about whether women marry men they are not attracted to,because NO women have told me this is so. Do you think that women who marry men, they are not that sexually attracted to, would go around telling others it is so? Call me a chauvinist if you like but I believe women have this great need to feel good about themselves. They even like to fool themselves. I’m surprised that you don’t agree its a fairly common phenomenon. Most people would vouch for the fact that a significant percentage of women marry… Read more »
And where can I subscribe? I can not find you.
http://www.goodguys2greatmen.com on the side bar. Thanks for your interest. Bring questions back here if you have them so others can benefit as well.
Hi Steve It is interesting to read what you write. Earlier I had a dialog on another thread where I told that I can often see feelings ( emotions ) in men’s eyes. It was a discussion about men looking at women,and approaching women. It surprised me that some men said this is impossible,and I felt I had insulted them in some way. But the fact is that I see feelings in men’s and animals eyes. You express it a bit differently but it is the same phenomena. You write: “Secret #1 She Can FEEL Your Intentions Women are a… Read more »
This makes me curious.
Because the expectation seem to be on the man to posess full mindreading skills. Why is that, when you at the same time claim that the woman have it naturally…? 😉
And for the record, I wasn’t angry or even uncomfortable.
I just asked, are you really sure you know what you’re doing? cause I’ve been in that situation numerous times with women who hardly bothered to even look at me.
Sorry Iben, I dont believe that women have supernatural ability that are very different from men that make them can read eyes, emotions, bla bla bla. Yeah you can, I believe it. But not all women can. And Many men can. And not all men can. Its not gender thing. Men are not pigs and women are not angels, we are human and we have exactly same ability and intuition. Its funny to me when someone says stereotypical things about men and women and its negative on women, everyone would jump on them and call them misogynist and women hater.… Read more »
Steve,
You state that a self assured man’s day or sense of himself is not ruined by the bad choices of others. I agree. Yet, a woman’s desire for a man is tied to and dependent on…….him. Seems like you envision a relationship with one person who takes responsibility for his actions and feelings, and one who doesn’t. So then the responsible person takes responsibility for the irresponsible person, also. And he likes this?
Great question. The answer is YES he likes this, but not forever. I envision a relationship where one person OWN’s their actions, feelings, and ability to meet the needs of the other person. In a troubled relationship, NEITHER person is doing this. The only way to inspire and attract the other person to join you and begin to play their proper role in rebuilding the connection and passion is to GO FIRST. Be that person for you without asking for permission or acceptance. This is who you want to be even if the relationship doesn’t work out. A person does… Read more »
Seems I violated posting guidelines and two of my comments were removed. I would agree they were too long and probably pushed my agenda.
In short, Adrian, no. I envision a relationship where a man accepts that he has had a role in where he and she are now. At some point, she must step up as well in response to his modeling the behavior of a person who wants to be better. We never take long term responsibility for another person’s irresponsibility or willingness to work with us.
So its man duties to step up, not women. Wow ..
Exactly…but step up FIRST. When a man does this first, a woman is more comfortable in reciprocating and following his example. It is biology proven for hundreds of years. A man should avoid the myth that men and women are the same…we are EQUAL all the way to our souls…but we are NOT the same.
A man is NOT expected to step up forever if his woman refuses to join him in the safe, trusting, intimate environment he is trying to create. She always has a choice and we can not change them or their choices.
I sense a reluctance on your part to say that “he should move on” and look for alternative outlets…after all he is a such a desirable man isn’t he? He shouldn’t have problems attracting other women for sex.
Besides why do you think that men ought to make more effort than the woman to obtain a sexually fulfilling relationship?
The reluctance a man should have is relative to his acknowledgement of his role in where the relationship is. If today you can say you are as good as you can be as a man and husband and have knocked yourself out meeting her emotional needs for months, and she is absolutely refusing to step up and join you in the recovery, you should start packing tomorrow morning. Steve http://goodguys2greatmen.com/goodguys/more-intimacy-a-mans-sexual-epiphany/ The fact that he could attract other women for sex is TOTALLY unrelated to his improvement as a man/husband and his ability to be part of a successful, emotionally and… Read more »
Hi Steve
You have a gift from God!
The love of my life was a man like you describes. He died from me.
I was in therapy for a while with professor and he often looked at me when I spoke out my love and asked:” what was he doing?” .
A physiatrist could not understand what it was about this man that mad me adore him but you do. My compliments!
Who thought you all this?
And why is this knowledge lost in western culture?
Do not tell me it is because of feminism. It is far more complicated.
Hi Iben, Thanks for the kind words. I’m very sorry for your loss. Many very wise men taught me the things I write about. These truths have also revealed themselves in many new ways as well, including my experience with “Horse Whispering”. That is such a valuable analogy for men to understand the language and FEELINGS of the woman they love. Maybe I’ll be able to publish more articles about that. I’m not sure any culture of men has all this figured out. We just have to be willing to become work in process for our OWN benefit and then… Read more »
So its right for women to be angry for being hurt in the past but not men. Wow…
no sir. Men have a right to express hurt and anger just like women.
BOTH have an ability and responsibility to CHOOSE to respond (not react) in ways that do not sabotage themselves and their relationships. I teach men that they have the power to choose their responses in ways that honors their feelings and feelings of others without causing destructive feelings in their women and their relationship.
A man’s reluctance to “move on” should be relative to acknowledgement of his role in the problem and extent to which he has REALLY worked on himself. Attracting other women is easy and not a measure of personal improvement. Anybody can attract a woman in the short term. I don’t “think” but “know” the biological truth about a woman’s need for a man to lead her through safety, trust, respect, emotional and physical intimacy. A man who doesn’t under her secrets will spend a lifetime scratching his head. Sex and intimacy is NOT a 50/50 effort. A man who learns… Read more »
“Attracting other women is easy and not a measure of personal improvement. Anybody can attract a woman in the short term”
I’m sorry Steve, a large proportion of the male population wont agree with you. Why are they so invisible to you?
Guys, I am well aware of the indignation caused by my comments and viewpoint. I expect a lot of men in the “manning up” department. I don’t expect all men to agree with me, in fact, a small percentage of men actually do. It is MY experience working with these men that they are the happiest, most optimistic, successful, confident, and sexually fulfilled men in the world. I’m not evangelizing here, just sharing REAL WORLD results. This has been confirmed by thousands of great women who want men like that. These same women also know they don’t deserve a man… Read more »
Women who are attracted to men who GO FIRST and willingly give without expectation are not dysfunctional or irresponsible. They are normal, healthy, wonderful women. “Dysfunctional women” are those who, in the presence of the “great man” choose to reject, belittle, battle, criticize, judge, and otherwise disrespect him and his values for a healthy, loving, intimate relationship. A man in this situation, assuming he has done HIS work, should look for another woman who shares his values. Bottom line for me: I have tremendous concern and love for by brothers. I enjoy this conversation. I also have tremendous respect for… Read more »
@Steve Horsmon:
Thanks for your input.
Just for clarity, can you give a definition, or a rough estimate thereof, of your use of “masculine” in this context? I’d appreciate that.
A masculine, self-assured, sexual man can continue loving and giving /…/
This question is usually the FIRST one asked by women who read my blog. It doesn’t matter if you are male or female – the answer is the same, but the reactions are sometimes different. Most women I talk to agree that “masculinity” is more easily defined by how they FEEL when they are around the right kind of masculinity. Key traits are an *authentic* display of: * Kindness * Attentiveness * Confidence * Giving without expectation * High sense of self-worth * Sexually confident AND competent * Tries to be interested – not interesting * An emotional “rock” *… Read more »
Thank you.
Hi Flyingkal
In another thread you asked me what I want in a relationship.
I could not answer in few words,and also feared the angry sharks on GMP.
But Steve Horsemon expresses it well. If he was a company I would invest shares !
If you can afford it,cooperate with him even if it means that you must get on the plane to Colorado. You are 40+ and have a long life ahead of you.
Trust me.
Hi Iben. Yes, I can see the appeal in this model, to some people. However. My experience from relationships is that the harder I’ve worked to give 100% and own my own sh!t, the more detached she has become and the less attractive to her I have become. No plan or service is 100% successful. I’ve been lonely for most of my 40 years, and if I have to go another 30 or 40 I have a lot of practice. Most women I’ve been with wanted little more than the “attentive” part after a while. What good is sexual confidence… Read more »
True. No plan is 100% successful. Human being are different. But for me with my personalty this plan is good. . I know who I am,I know my deepest needs and I know what makes me reject men and what today makes me reluctant to start a new relationship. I see men in my environment lack what I need the most. It is not that I dislike men,but I want something that is NOT there in all men where I live. And earlier when I wrote about men that become uncomfortable when I said I saw feelings in men eyes,… Read more »
Iben Is it just fear of rape that makes women reject most of the men they come across? Or is it that they’re just not attracted to them? I hope you don’t call me angry or a misogynist for being skeptical about your explanation that I and countless other men have been rejected and overlooked by women all their lives simply because there was a risk of rape. Simply because I was didn’t supposedly come across as ‘safe enough’ to them. I am skeptic because I can think of many counter examples. I’ve seen the safest and most harmless of… Read more »
It seems they are angry at all women because they feel sexually rejected. And they just don’t get it. Here is quote from Dr.Nerdlove: To quote from Gavin DeBecker’s excellent book The Gift of Fear: “Most men fear getting laughed at or humiliated by a romantic prospect while most women fear rape and death.” The risk of being raped is no less when a man is very good looking. It’s rarely that a woman chooses one man over another because the latter was perceived as more likely to rape. I’m not saying women don’t face this risk. I’m just saying… Read more »
Iben
I’m like the last guy women would fear getting raped by. I’m only 5’5” and really thin. Even women I come across joke about how tiny I am. I know from the way they interact with me that the last thing they are feeling is physical intimidation or risk of being overpowered.
I always thought my failure with women was due to *cough* them not being *cough* attracted to me. But now you tell me it could be due to their fear of being raped.
All I can tell you is that a man with REAL sexual confidence and competence who is not attracting high quality women is missing something. The formula for attraction and maintaining long term attractiveness requires introspection and consistent work and attention. If a man does not want to do that, that’s ok. That’s why God created dogs. 🙂 Women require more..much more.
Hi Steve, Wow, insulting people who doesn’t buy your “catch”, now how does that go along with being confident and having a high sense of self-worth in your list? Or a “Concern for creating a comfortable environment for others”…? o_O But I guess that the traits you listed are best displayed to the women in your sight, and not to other people in the surroundings. Because what better aphrodisiac than a show of your superiority to other men. 😉 But I’m sure you are avery successful man, so I guess you don’t need me to rub your back, or my… Read more »
Hi again, Iben.
I find it interesting when you subscribe to such a rigorous list of what might be regarded as human “perfection” in a male partner. And yet being highly offended by an article the other day that the most some men really wanted out of a relationship was some peace and quiet!! (“I wouldn’t treat a CAT like this!” or what was it?)
I would say it’s a discrepancy there that is rather telling…
However, I hope you find what you’re looking for, whatever it is.
Your memory is not good. I told about my ex husband that left at seven in the morning to fight sable tooth tigers in the city and came back home eleven at night. Six – seven days a week. I do not treat my cats like that. When I bring animals into my life,I give them my time and my closeness. They sleep with at night, follow me from room to room, follow me in the garden and cuddle in my lap when I sit down. I do not leave them alone at home or outside from seven in the… Read more »
Iben.
The point was not specifically what your ex-husband did or did not do to you. The quote about the cat was probably unnecessary and I apologize for using that.
The point was the stark contrast between your expectations on a male partner, in comparison to what that man would be “allowed” to expect from a female partner.
why you always said ” angry men” on GMP? Seems like you cant take a honest opinion of men who have been hurt. Many women ( inlcuding feminist ) who have been hurt also angry and you dont seem ever to call them. Everyone , men and women have right to be angry. You are so selfish for always including ” angry men ” in your post.