I just listened to my four and six year-old children (one boy, one girl) have a lengthy bathtime conversation about babies, growing up, monster trucks, Donald Trump, and vulvas.
I think the days of the combined bath may be short. Also, I think the election is even getting to them.
I have three sons and two daughters, and a lot of agony about what the future looks like for them. I worry about them all, but the worry I have for my girls, for their bodies, for their dignity, keeps me awake.
It keeps me awake because I was sexually assaulted. It keeps me awake because I know that my best efforts may still not be able to protect them from being sexually assaulted or otherwise treated poorly. It keeps me awake because there are boys in the world right now, growing up alongside my girls, who aren’t being taught how to talk to, and about, young women, who aren’t being taught how to treat young women.
My boys will not be those boys.
I know it’s confusing when your kids are young and you think they don’t understand what’s going on around them. But I promise you, they are never too young to be told how to act (but maybe just avoid the word asshole).
I know it’s hard to get a word in edgewise when your boys are busy playing Xbox/Pokemon Go/with their wieners, but there is some point of the day when they are not currently touching (nor have they recently been touching) their wieners. That’s the time you grab them, and hold their Xbox controller hostage, while you make them super extra uncomfortable by talking about women/the female anatomy/sex.
1. Start with the men in their lives (dads, uncles, grandfathers).
What you say to your boys is moot if they see their grandfather talking about the neighbor’s “rack.” If your kids’ grandfather doesn’t talk about the neighbor’s rack, well, then you’re doing better than some of us. If you aren’t already, now is a good time to tell the other adult men in your life to stop being misogynistic.
2. A female is not an object.
Now that you’ve gotten number one out of the way, let’s move on to “ladies are not just legs.” A human being is their brain. Plus the other things. The stuff on the outside is just an expression of muscle, skin, and fat. Remember that before you reduce her to her ass.
3. A female is not your property.
Do not call her yours. Any piece of herself, she is kind enough to let you touch, is only on loan. When she’s done letting you borrow her body, she is done, and you are done. You are not allowed to tell her what to do, or when or how to do it. That’s called free agency. You have it and so does she. If you get in the way of free agency, your wiener will fall off (this isn’t true but scare tactics can be effective, especially when involving the genitals).
4. “Locker room talk” has limits.
“Locker room talk” is not talk that involves degradation or discussion of forced sexual encounters. Want to discuss sex with your friends? Okay. But remember that the sex you are discussing involves another human being and their shared experience.
5. Do not say “boys will be boys.”
Boys will be human beings. Being a human being means not being an asshole, and showing the same respect for other human beings as they would like shown to them.
6. Do not ever touch a female (or any human) without their consent.
If you do, and I find out, I will take your car/iPhone/Xbox, and I will cry. Because the worst thing you can do to your mother is disappoint her.
The way we teach our boys to talk to girls today is the way they will talk to their wives and daughters tomorrow. If we aren’t telling them what is appropriate or reasonable, they will make their own conclusions, and if the conclusions they make are based on what they see and hear in the media and society at large, they will not be the kind of men we want them to become.
_____
This story by Joni Edelman originally appeared on Ravishly, a feminist news+culture website. Follow us on Twitter & Facebook and check out these related stories:
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Photo courtesy of author.
I don’t see a problem with talking about your neighbor’s rack. I think the problem is when you talk about your neighbor’s rack. In the old days men wouldn’t use certain language or discuss certain things around women and children.
Is it okay for women to talk about men’s money? Around each other and around young girls or teen girls? At what age does it become okay to talk about how much money a man has and to highlight the importance of this on young women?
“Is it okay for women to talk about men’s money?” There are a lot of different ways women talk about a man’s money. I could see some being problematic and others not. For example, his occupation, where he lives, or where he drives could indicate how much money he makes. Whether he owns his home or whether he rents, sometimes what school he went to, the places he visited, or even if he just closed a bog deal could indicate where he approximately is on the financial spectrum. Are all those things bad? If not why not? What about the… Read more »
In all honesty, the very first question men and women alike ask me is what I do for a living and where I live. the average 30 year old guy seems to care about your job AND having a hot body. It seems to be general belief among men that women are not allowed to like that he has a nice job, car or home or car but he is complelety allowed to rate a woman’s body, disect it, bond with other men over it, as long as its visually visable for his scrutiny. I seriously don’t see a problem… Read more »
I’ve had strange women come up to me and comment on my appearance. I’ve also witnessed conversations between women where they’ve commented on a man’s appearance. The fact that every body does something doesn’t seem to excuse all the behaviors that are similar. It might serve a better purpose to clarify where the boundaries lie rather than saying something is blanket off limits. I also disagree that behaviors that tend to be mostly male be demonized for essentially no better reason than they are done by men and affect women. Men may ask a woman what they do for a… Read more »
We have very different ideas about how it’s okay to treat people. Like I said earlier, I do not want to be with a man that believes it is okay to say certain things about women among men, while pretending to the women in his life he respects women or them. That isn’t a man that truly respects women. That is a man that has a disconnection of values. This is a disconnect I see all to often. People who believe that as long as no one is around to see you saying or doing certain things, or that a… Read more »
I think we have an issue of what degrade means. There was a Matched With Children episode where Al kicks out a breast feeding mom. Marcie is incensed because breast feeding is natural. Al responds so is peeing. There are a lot of things people won’t say or do in front of others. Should we expect everyone to walk around naked. Keeping certain things private or only being willing to talk about them in front of certain people doesn’t make you bad. People need to get over themselves. Respect doesn’t mean people have to be treated 100% one specific way… Read more »
i am not familiar with this show you mentioned. But I will just say that there is a lot of hypocrisy in how a lot of men are comfortable with how women’s bodies are used and how breasts are treated like something that exists souly for men’s pleasure, but the second a woman uses her breasts as what they were really intended for, feeding their babies; and not as a extension of male pleasure and sexuality, how offended some men get. Sorry, but no, breast feeding is nothing like peeing. Supporting and getting off to women’s bodies being sexually exploited… Read more »
I know it’s hard to get a word in edgewise when your boys are busy playing Xbox/Pokemon Go/with their wieners, but there is some point of the day when they are not currently touching (nor have they recently been touching) their wieners. That’s the time you grab them, and hold their Xbox controller hostage, while you make them super extra uncomfortable by talking about women/the female anatomy/sex. If you don’t want your sons to act like stereotypes it might help if you don’t talk about them like they are stereotypes. 1. Start with the men in their lives (dads, uncles,… Read more »
Another article in which the author is trying to improve the conversations and interactions between males and females, and it’s mostly met with anger, hostility and defensiveness. I guess by some reader’s standards here, there can never be any discussion in how boys can learn how to treat girls in more positive and healthy ways. There is absolutely nothing wrong in a mother, who was sexually assaulted, encouraging a conversation about methods for teaching boys to have more knowledge and self awareness for their own success as much as the success of the females they will interact with. Teaching boys… Read more »
“I suspect if this article had been about advice for things girls can do to treat boys better, no one here would have had a problem with that.”
I’m still waiting for an article like that.
Meanwhile, this is the latest in a long line of carbon copy articles on this same theme.
That, as I’ve told you multiple times, is the problem Erin.
Wrong 8Ball. The real problem here is that this conversation is being shut down before it even began because some of you are showing that you have no interest in helping boys learn new things that would only directly benefit themselves and their own relationships. Denying this conversation over and over again is also the “latest in a long line of carbon copy” responses that ask men to think about the power and affect they have with other people. The people who loose are the boys and men that could benefit from some self improvement and learning new skills. Which… Read more »
Ok. You tell me where I’m supposed to go talk about males being the victims of female assault. Of women being taught that men’s consent matters too, of girls keeping their hands to themselves. Daughters being taught to treat boys the way they want to be treated.
Point me to the recent article on this topic where such comments would be more appropriate
I’ll wait.
8Ball, you seemed to suggest that because you personally believe too many articles exist teaching men how to treat women, that there was no need for this conversation. I asked you’d you believed that the number of articles teaching males to respect females was reflected in society…meaning, do males sincerely show greater respect for women now-a-days then women do? Because if you believe they do, that is the only reason I can see you actively fighting against conversations of men being accountable in how they treat females. Are men more respectful of women then women are of men? Look, if… Read more »
Forget it.
You’ve already had this entire conversation in your head,apparently, so anything I actually say won’t matter.
You are accusing me of something that isn’t even true. But don’t worry, you are not the only one here that feels like what you are saying isn’t getting through. I feel that way too all the time.
good, now you know how it feels to “be accused of something that isn’t even true.”
Because I never was accused of something that wasn’t true??? You can not be serious.
Don’t hold your breath my friend.
@ Erin I don’t know about that. I see most of the upset being about the author stereotyping young boys. So, here is a question. I’ve seen many articles where men are told that if you treat a woman with respect, love, etc. she’ll reciprocate. Why do you think that so many articles then expect to get the best out of men by treating them disrespectfully and / or bashing them? IMO the best foundation to teach empathy is teaching your sons that they have value. Their boundaries should be respected. Giving our sons a positive self image. Heaven forbid… Read more »
You don’t treat a woman or man with respect just so they reciprocate. You do it because how you treat others is a reflection of you. If I fell into disrespecting all the people who disrespected me, I’d be Avery different person today. These issues the author brought up are very real things women experience. These are real social issues concerning respect, or the lack of. What you see as disrespectful to men and bashing, I see as addressing real social issues. How would you like women to address real social issues they experience with men? Should we not discuss… Read more »
@ Erin I’ve always been an advocate of keep your hands to yourself. I’ve even spoken out about the pass that women get for “platonic” touch. It must be great to be able to define your touching someone as platonic while demonizing someone else for doing the exact same thing or something even less. What if I told my nephew to keep his hands to himself while slapping his hand. What if I told my nephew to jeep his hands to himself then always touched him regardless of what his feelings were? How effective do you think that would be?… Read more »
I am confused how my point about how even good boys still need to be taught how to treat others who are different from them turned into how women “get away with platonic touch”. I never physically slapped my nephew’s hands. He is smart enough to read tone of voice. Like I said previously, these points made by the author are real social issues women experience. Why dismiss them? and I will ask you again: how would you like women to address real social issues with men? Should we simply not? Should we simply just praise men all the time?… Read more »
@ Erin “Like I said previously, these points made by the author are real social issues women experience. Why dismiss them? and I will ask you again: how would you like women to address real social issues with men?” What issue did people have with the article? It seems most of the ire concerns one statement. Everything else seems to be acceptable. People also disagreed with the extent to which a concept, men appreciating women’s physical beauty, should be taken. That isn’t so much a disagreement as a disagreement of where the line should be drawn. Isn’t it OK to… Read more »
Well stated, right to the crux of the problem.
Another article in which the author is trying to improve the conversations and interactions between males and females, and it’s mostly met with anger, hostility and defensiveness. Well then its not really a article trying to improve the conversation between males and females then is it, right? If the men are saying that its accusatory, then maybe, just maybe, rather then being so quick to declare their concern a reason to dismiss, we should listen to them…because just maybe it is little more then the drone of accusation, especially when we know that girls are just as likely to objectify,… Read more »
“I know it’s hard to get a word in edgewise when your boys are busy playing Xbox/Pokemon Go/with their wieners, but there is some point of the day when they are not currently touching (nor have they recently been touching) their wieners. That’s the time you grab them, and hold their Xbox controller hostage, while you make them super extra uncomfortable by talking about women/the female anatomy/sex.” Nothing like good old stereotyping, right?
How about looking at your sons as who they are and not what society says they are?
“3. A female is not your property.
Do not call her yours.”
As oppose to, say, your children that you actually look upon as property?
I personally have no problem with the use of “my” boyfriend/girlfriend…etc, etc. I don’t think people always say “my” because they believe they own the other person. It’s simply a way to communicate who your partner is. How else would you refer to people in your life? I refer to my mom as my mom. What else would I say?
This author does not believe boys can be raped.
Teach them that girls have cooties That should get them to 11 or so, then tell them that girls are only interested in quartebacks and varsity athletes from popular sports – that should get them to college Then tell them that girls will derail their academic career with any errant false allegation and upon graduation teach them that women are only interested in their money / job / house – that should tide them right through all the divorces their friends get & and then they are well set for life. Remember, a girl is never yours, it is merely… Read more »
Real locker room talk is making fun of a teammate that made a mistake in the game.
My current favorite is making fun of the rookie that can’t hit a wide open net on my hockey team.