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Dear Sandy,
I am not terribly conventional, I have a doctorate, and I am fairly independent. I also look about 10 years younger than my age. I am really energetic and still enjoy many of the things I enjoyed in my 20s and 30s. But in online dating, men my age are not looking at women my age. They are looking for younger. The men I do hear from are older than me by 10-15 years and are looking for a far more mellow lifestyle (or trying too hard to be youthful — if it is genuine, great, if not, it’s annoying). I don’t want to date men who remind me of my dad, who want quiet dinners or sitting home watching movies.
On the flip side, when I meet men in real life, I do attract more of the type of man I like — my age or younger, energetic, out and about — and yet when they find out how old I am or that my kids are in their late teens, they get freaked out (much like they get when they learn I have a Ph.D.), as if I have tricked them somehow on purpose — they think I am in my 30s. I guess when the right guy comes along, this won’t happen, but I feel very discouraged and am not sure any more where to look to meet anyone. How does one navigate this “glass ceiling” of aging?
I want to be in a relationship, and I’m worried it’s not going to happen. I’m sick of older men looking for younger women!
Fran
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Dear Fran,
Here’s the deal with middle-aged men online; they may post that they’re looking for much younger women, but you can actually ignore that little tidbit of information and write to them anyway. An older man can dream of his fantasy arm-candy, his midlife crisis temporary cure, his ego boosting babe. But a real man, one who wants a relationship with a solid amazing woman over 50, will look at your email and profile and think, “This woman looks and sounds amazing. I want to get to know her.” This won’t happen with every man you write, but I suggest you ignore the age demographic online and write anyway. I do it all the time and have dated men of all ages whom I met online and offline.It’s important that we don’t generalize about age and what it means.
It’s important that we don’t generalize about age and what it means. There are 40-year olds who are way more mature than 60-year olds.
Men Looking for Younger Women
Biologically speaking, we are all hardwired to seek out the most youthful, robust partner. No matter our age, we want to be with someone who will live a long healthy life. Back in the day, when marriage was about having a partner to help run the farm and procreate before love stepped in to complicate marriage, men looked for signs of fertility in women – rosy cheeks and wide hips. Women sought out the man with muscles, broad shoulders, one who could till the fields and bring home the hunt of the day.
Subconsciously, those instincts are still hardwired into our brains. I once watched a special on PBS about attraction. Young men were shown photos of women in various stages of their menstrual cycle, and across the board, women who were ovulating were rated as more attractive!
As for older men looking for younger women, there’s not much you can do about the men who date to satisfy their ego. You don’t want them anyway. They are really boys, not men.
A real man will want the whole package; a woman who takes care of herself emotionally, physically, and spiritually. She’s young at heart and playful. She’s smart and isn’t afraid to let down her guard and let the right man into her “inner circle”. That’s a woman of high value, no matter if she’s 20 or 90.
Wishing you the best in love and life,
Sandy
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This post was originally published on LastFirstDate.com and is republished here with permission from the author.
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I still like younger women better then older women some are okay. At least they can’t get bring I baggage dependent on age and they’ve got more financial security Not all of them are bad. Now I’m just talking about this one girl, Bernadette who’s 47 who dates a 14-year-old kid. That’s not a cougar or milf. She is just a sick perv. Not all people that date young are perverts. Watch out for gold diggers if you’ve got money!
Why would i want somebody that didn’t want me when i was 20? I’m only accepting a wife that is 18-25 years. If they want to waste their best years following guys that shit on their faces it’s their problem. If a girl wants a man in his prime, it’s only natural for a man for wanting a girl in her prime. Got to love karma
Lets get one thing clear – men are not women. Emotions are secondary to sex. You cannot keep embuing your warped ideas from a profoundly incorrect education system that women’s libidos are anything near as I high as men’s. We stay in relationships purely for sex, and secondly for kids. Many men bail when they are sick and tired of arguing about sex. Quite correctly they understand a younger woman has a higher interest in sex than an older one – if it aint kids, then its the menopause. The majority of women abnegate their sexual responsibilities very soon after… Read more »
You’re do accurate about this it isn’t funny: kudos to an accurate an unusually astute evaluation of the relationship(s) between the sexes. Thanks.
Funny, I have faced this on the flip side as a man. A man in his late 20s (whos doing well I might add and does not boast about how well he has done), who has been overlooked towards older guys by women in his age group, due to “perceptions” of maturity, finances, etc. (I think the financial perspective plays into fact here, because I am a man who knows what he wants and prepared to get it…), but I am not the one to mention my bank account on dates…. perception just sucks.
An older man can dream of his fantasy arm-candy, his midlife crisis temporary cure, his ego boosting babe. But a real man, one who wants a relationship with a solid amazing woman over 50, will look at your email and profile and think, “This woman looks and sounds amazing. I want to get to know her.” Well thanks Sandy. Thank you for invoking the “real man” argument. Im kinda surprised that you would deliver your point in that way. Why even put that in there? If you had started that sentence with “One who wants….” and it would have worked… Read more »
Fact: As women age, their looks fade, and as such they become less attractive to men. Fact: As men age, they acquire more money, power, and status, and as such become more attractive to women. My sympathies to the older woman. However, men can no more ignore their biological imperatives (to seek out younger, more fertile women) then women can ignore their biological imperatives (to seek out men who can provide them with good genes for their offspring and sustenance once they are born). Enough with the politically correct bullshit about what we are supposed to be attracted to. Millions… Read more »
Hi Athirson
I think you need to read up recent research .
You do not have the facts.
Sorry..
Then educate us, please Iben?
C-Bob No I don’t want to rob Athirson of the deep joy of actually read up recent research in a topic he see himself as a master in . Anyone who writes like him,just wants to hurt other people’s feelings ,and don’t bother with wha he here like to call “facts “. That is so obvious he just wants to insult women ans idealise aging men. So that I feel no compassion for him,have zero respect for him and can not see why I should waste any more time on him. In fact some of the comments in this tread… Read more »
No, you are the one making a counterclaim to something that is widely believed based on years of researc in psychology. If you disagree and have “more recent research” you should present it. Otherwise you cannot expect to have your claim taken seriously. My intention is not to insult you, I would like to read it too – if you have it.
Add me to the list of people who want to read this. I took tons of psych electives in university, and I’ve never heard anything serious that counters what’s been this well established. It must be some new research that I’d really love to see.
Those aren’t facts. It’s just your personal filter of misogyny. You don’t value or respect women. And being politically correct is just about one’s ability to be a decent, kind, respectful human being toward their fellow humans. It’s unfortunate for you that you don’t see value in that. But since you believe your value lies in your money, wealth and status, how much money do you have?
Wait! If a man doesn’t want more children but wants a younger woman because she is more fertile, isn’t that illogical? What you aren’t saying is you like a younger woman’s physical features. No sagging, no wrinkles, etc. Plus they make you feel like you still have what it takes to be a stud!!! What if she wants children though. What if she makes great money, has power, and status and is drop dead gorgeous with the body of a porn star? What can you give to her that she doesn’t already have? With your attitude, you will attract women… Read more »
You’re a badass- and utterly correct! Thank you for your comment.
More women than men are going to college now. They have their own successful careers and resources. So why would a young, attractive woman want to be in a relationship with an old man? Older men are balding, have paunch bellies, wrinkles, and less energy. That’s why young women prefer to date men their own age. As far as claiming that old men look for young girls because of some biological imperative, that doesn’t make sense. A man’s fertility declines with age, too. A man in his forties will take about two years to impregnate a young woman. There is… Read more »
Im sick of older men seeking me out. Over the years its made me feel that Im only worth my looks. 10 years from now I won’t get any attention, just like the wives and girlfriends of the men who rubberneck me. Its made me shy away from serious relationships.
truth is, you are largely only worth your looks and then character makes the rest tolerable or enjoyable. But that is true for all of us. If I were a 5’1” fatty with body odour, bald, with bad teeth would you give me the time of day? Women and men judge on looks far more than we realise, it’s the very basis of initial attraction.
I’d give the same advice to men when it comes to women and their preference for height. On many dating sites, women will say they want a man that’s 6+ feet tall. I’d tell men to write to these women anyway. A lot of women dream of being with a man that’s 6 foot tall when they’re only 5 foot themselves. Many of them will still probably date you if you’re only 5’9″. Not quite 6 feet. Many women also have some pretty shallow preferences when it comes to men.
@David Ede, I absolutely agree. I have written about the topic of personal preferences such as height and weight, and what REALLY matters in relationship: connection, compatibility, and chemistry. Any superficial trait can change. Character is forever…
But as a culture we are much less harsh on women’s preferences than on men’s…. Simple truth, there is a much higher percentage of men that fail at dating, not just because of personal issues but height weight masculine traits or even as a bunch of my asian friends say racial tastes. As another commenter noted simply the percentage of each gender that gets to be a bio-parent is quite skewed. To often guys get pigeon holed due to physical traits as undateable…. in ways that would be unacceptable if the genders were reversed.
first of all, that is untrue – your belief that we hate less harsh on women’s preferences than men’s. It is universally accepted for men to be shallow about women’s looks and age. Older men/ younger women relationships are way more common then older women women/ younger men, Infact, people put down older women who date younger men. Women are also called names for their shallow preferences. “Gold-digger” is thrown out there if a woman wants the man to pay for the first date. And no, there is no such orecentage of men failing at dating. Based on government statistics,… Read more »
But what do you do if you might be able to convince people that you’re 5’5″ on a good day? The stories I could tell…
Who the eff (who’s not a child( cares about height, so stupid! Fxxk that.
So…when I was in my 20s and 30s, women my age only ever seemed to want to date older guys. So, especially in my 20s, I never got to date any women in their 20s. You’re telling me now that I’m in my 40s, it’s not ok to be interested in younger women? So I’m supposed to sacrifice, and never get a chance to be with a woman in that age range, because they made their choice back then, but now I’m denied my choice. Could it be more hypocritical? A moot point ‘cuz I’m not single, but surely what… Read more »
Women, even younger women, don’t owe you a thing because other women rejected you when you were younger. You are not entitled to women of a certain age just like women are not entitled to men of a certain income. Or are women Infact entitled to a man of a certain income because of their own emotional painful experiences? You are also not the only gender who experinces pain when young. Women also experince pain and it is no less valid then your own. I fail to see what is hypocritical in certain women rejecting you and then expecting other… Read more »
I think you misunderstand. I’m not saying I’m entitled to anything, except maybe freedom from being judged for what I want. Fran, in this article is doing exactly that, as are a lot of the comments here. In fact, I’m not blaming women for everything. I’m saying I wish that for once, somewhere in my life, women would stop blaming men, and by implication, me, for all the bad decisions they’ve made. I can never seem to get away from it, neither online, nor in real life with every woman I meet, and it drags me down. It’s the classic,… Read more »
I am finding so many contradictions in your response. I honestly believe you want to believe you aren’t judging women because you don’t want to be judged yourself, but the majority of your response was Infact blaming women. You called women hypocritical. Is that not a judgement of women? You appeared to blame women for your lack of opportunity when younger. You seem to be suggesting that it was women’s fault you didn’t have the opportunities with women you wanted when you were younger. You specifically said you were denied something because of women’s choices……does this not Infact place blame… Read more »
Again, I’m sorry that the things I say come across that way. I don’t know what else to say. I don’t judge anyone for their choices, but I just want some honesty about it…which, thankfully, I’ve managed to get over the years. I just don’t like it when people, of either gender, say things like (the title of this post), “I’m sick of men looking for younger women”, which, in itself is a derogatory generalization about men, when they won’t be honest about their own biases. Maybe you’d have to meet me in real life, meet the women I’ve been… Read more »
I do not think you are shallow or a crappy person, at all. I do think every single person on the planet (me included) could use help working on how they relate to others, especially in this case because of this topic, how we relate to the people we are sexually and romantically interested in. It might not seem like it but I have learned a lot from GMP that’s helped me understand men better. And that was initially my main focus coming here. Okay. You don’t like it when women judge men for liking younger women. You don’t even… Read more »
“I have no issues with men dating younger women as long as they really enjoy all women and dated all kinds of women. But the objectification of women based on their ages is not okay. And I am sorry but I do judge certain men for it.” Well said, and I think we’re both coming from the same place in this regard. Objectifying people, under any circumstances, is something we shouldn’t accept as a bottom line for basic human decency. I need to take all this away and think about it some more. Of course, since I’ve been in a… Read more »
Are you unhappy in your relationship Anthony? I understand this is a personal question and obviously I understand if you don’t want to answer it.
Well, let’s just say, I’ve been asking myself that question since day one, and more and more frequently lately. I’m always concerned by the honest answers I have, but it’s never that simple. I also ask myself if I could have been, or could become happier, and every day I find myself in situations that convince me that those answers are firmly “no”, and “no”. It’s not even a matter of me being afraid of, or resistant to change, taking a risk, following my heart, or anything like that. It’s just continuous reinforcement that the situation I’m in now was… Read more »
Thanks for the sincere honesty. Someome said something to me recently because I have been feeling a little frustrated around my own level of happiness lately and feeling like there are things I want from life that I haven’t yet been able to obtain. And they said me, ” if you aren’t happy without it, you won’t be happy with it either.” Because our happiness isnt defined by any one aspect of our lives. It’s defined from within. It’s a paradox. Because certain things do make us happy for the short term when we get them. But rarely do they… Read more »
Yes, that makes sense to me, and it’s good advice. Easier said than done sometimes though, LOL! I’m in the middle of a struggle with this now too. It’s also a struggle to find purpose. Things I was working so hard towards never materialized, and in their place, I found things that I thought would make me “happy enough”. But I’m starting to think I was wrong. I take comfort in the fact that I’ve helped so many people around me succeed, find happiness, and even joy in their lives. I just feel sometimes like I failed so hard at… Read more »
More young women these days are going to college than men so they have their own successful careers and resources. So they are free to choose romantic partners based on what they are truly attracted to rather than on whether a man “can provide for her”. This will probably lead to more young women choosing men their own age because let’s face it, women are just as concerned with looks as men are and most young women, if given the choice, would prefer a hot young, fit guy over a wrinkled, gray haired geezer.
So you’re telling us you’re a loser and now you want revenge? You never had any luck with women your own age. Get over it. Look in the mirror. Women don’t owe you anything.
I particularly loved the part about how men having a midlife crisis are not ‘real men’. Thanks for that.
Anthony
I though I would never see that expression here on GMP.
New title for an article .. “Old men and the young women dating them …. for their money.”
Tom I don’t think it always about the money.
I myself have felt attraction for a few older men just because they were fatherly, I miss a father.
Dear Fran- I am terribly sorry, but life isn’t fair, and this is one of the places where it isn’t fair. I am 55 and my ex-wife was 10 years younger, my subsequent girlfriend was 19 years younger, and my last girlfriend was 27 years younger. It’s not my fault that younger women find me attractive, and I’m not going to say, “You know what? It isn’t fair that women in their late 40s or 50s want are looking for a boyfriend or husband their age, so I’m going to deliberately ‘serve that market.’ Any man knows what I’m talking… Read more »
Hey Josiah – I’ve heard this kind of response feom men, many times online. And it always reads like men are giving women a giant middle finger and telling us we are less worthwhile at certain ages while lifting yourself up claiming you are more worthwhile. Your comments are very antagonistic, belitting of women your own age while also bragging of what you believe is your own importance and superiority. When you speak this way to women, about women, you create more space between yourself and women. Instead of helping men and women form better, healthier relationships, you give women… Read more »
@Erin: Touché! Thank you for your brilliant response.
Thanks Sandy.
“And yes, younger women do date older men because women are conditioned to be.ieve certain people untruths about their own age and biology. ”
Everything that happens to women is the fault of men.
Everything that happens to men is also men’s fault.
Yeah, women are so equal to men lol. The only time I doubt the equality of the genders is listening to piffle like this.
Sorry for the typos. I have been using an iPad of late. It’s not a matter of reducing a complex issue down to “being men’s fault”. It’s a matter of recognizing how society conditions both men and women. And unfortunately, we do live in a society where certain negative conditioning is used agaisnt women. Ageism is one of these issues. It works for men too where we condition men through society, to deny certain normal emotional Why would that be offensive to you personally? The reality is that we still have a society that wants to condition women to be… Read more »
Social constructs that held women back were defined and set up by men. They existed for decades and generations and are still deeply entrenched in our cultural beliefs of men and women. No need to be defensive about facts. It’s not my fault men felt the need to dominate and subjugate women for generations. That is simply the history of most nations…men’s lack of respect for women’s equality. You have zero justification to be defensive about that truth. Women are Infact conditioned to believe untruths about their age and in today’s modern world, that is perpetuated by male and female… Read more »
“Society has simply socialized women to aceept less then what they deserve because women and men are both taught from a young age that men are entitled to certain things while at the same time conditioned women to believe they aren’t.” “Less than they deserve? So you think women are entitled to something from men? What exactly do women “deserve” from men? For the record, it isn’t because men are “socialized”, and it isn’t because of any lust for power. Men generally do find women in their 20s and 30s more attractive than those in their 40s and 50s. It’s… Read more »
Josiah
I really don’t care one way or another but reading your comment I am curious ” why did all your relationships with younger women end?”
Thanks for putting it so honestly and plainly. Its the truth & why I will never get into a serious relationship.
Hi Sandy
It has been interesting to see the reactions to the fact that the new president in France is married to a woman 24 years older than him.
No doubt a brave man,and intelligent as well.
How is this any different from when women complain that men only want bad guys? The only differences I can see is that Fran doesn’t get told that she is entitled, that she should stop looking only at the top-10% of men and that she has to respect mens’ right to preferences.
“How is this any different from when men complain that women only want bad guys?” Corrected a small misstake.
And as always, men get the criticism when it takes two to tango. Yet again the women driving the other half of this dynamic aren’t held to the same level of responsibility, then women in their later decades wonder why this keeps happening.
(How dare men have preferences anyway, the privileged entitled sods.)
The difference is that society socializes both women and men to look down on women for aging. So women loose twice because the system is set to work agaisnt women. When men believe they are better for getting older and women are worse, and women have to battle society to be considered worthy members for love and jobs, that is a system that is set to work agaisnt women, not men. So yes, while women participate in the system, it was men who made sure the system was set agaisnt women. Women may have all the legal equalities men do… Read more »
Please post the minutes of the meeting where this system was implemented.
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May just as likely been the result of women in their fertile years preferring an well established partner to better provide for her children to be. It very probably came to be due to both pressures reinforcing each other….. Not very likely to have been set up by a cabal of evil old men plotting against women.
Trey1963 “Not very likely to have been set up by a cabal of evil old men plotting against women” Here in our societies in the West ,women have more freedom both to choose who they get involved with and they can imitate a divorce . I know I am a bit off topic now… But look at what happpens in other parts of the world ,with children that are married off to men a lot older . In Europe we have refugees coming in,and we don’t know how to deal with that fact that children are married and already mothers… Read more »
If you read a bit that practice is mostly due to in extremis conditions. A family literally does not have enough to survive, culturally only male children are expected to support parents in old age. So girls are married off young, so they at least get a chance to survive….a truly horrible choice…. But what does that have to do with how men and women in the west date and mate? Here the choice is equally shared between the men and women making it, as should any responsibility for that choice be shared. We are in a shared society, sharing… Read more »
No, everyone reinforces the system. Men and women. Both are guilty, not just men.
If there is no collective responsibility being handed out to women, then there is no reason to give a crap about your issues if you cannot deal with them without handing out collective guilt to men only.
” while men still can get ED covered even makes that debatable”
Your ignorance is showing. Compare like with like. Men have NO contraceptive options covered. Women can’t get a few businesses to cover a few of their multiple options and it’s a “war on women”.
“Dating isn’t equal opportunity” as one lovely woman over at a feminist forum once put it.
The difference is that society socializes both women and men to look down on women for aging Society also conditions men and women to look down on men who are underemployed as “losers”. What’s your point? For reasons of biological reproduction, men value youth and women value net worth. Women lose it as they get older (and therefore have fewer dating options) and men gain it as they get older (and therefore have more dating options). Nobody cares that the skinny dweeb without the nice car his parents bought him can’t get a girlfriend at 17, but those same girls… Read more »
Once again, you aren’t talking about “biology”. Men do not become more fertile and attractive with age. Men experience the same aging process. We all know older fathers potentially contribute to genetic abnormalities. Brad Pitt at 25 was way more attractive then Brad Pitt now. What you are describing is socialization. And it’s a system designed to give more power to men over women. You deny women true personhood When you assume it is only skinny 17 year old males that have a hard time finding girlfriends. I was a chubby 17 year old and boys weren’t knocking down my… Read more »
Men do not become more fertile and attractive with age. No, they become (generally) more stable, more employable and have more net worth. This is the socialisation issue. I already acknowledged that so I don’t understand why you are arguing. Women are conditioned to “date up” and screw her nose up at the “losers”. You seem to think that this is not a problem. But when that rich man with a good job rejects a woman his own age, THIS is problematic. He is adhering to the same social norms as the young woman who chases him. Why do you… Read more »
C-Bob “But when that rich man with a good job rejects a woman his own age, ” The older men that approach young women,they sometimes. ( seldom) rich men. My experience is that they are simply ordinary men and not at all wealthy or with lots of resources. They are often divorced,have child support to pay. Some also pay to their ex wife… Men in Western society do not become rich just by aging! Upward social mobility is not that easy even if a society build on myths that teach us that we can all make it if we work… Read more »
How did I vilify men? Where did I do this? I believe you are confused about what issue this article was addressing. This topic attempted to address the issue of ageism. Which is Infact a system men crafted to use agaisnt women. If you were honest here you wouldn’t want to be with a woman who was using you for your money right? Or felt entitled to your money, right? It’s simple then. Don’t treat women in ways you don’t want to be treated. You are not entitled to younger women just because you had bad experiences when young. And… Read more »
Just wondering where the terms “Cougar” and “Jaguar” came from. Appears we live in a society of double standards, Men = Bad Women doing the same thing are given titles. How come?
I don’t like the term cougar. It may be a title, but I don’t think it paints women in a good light. In an ideal world, we would be dating for the person, not the age, income level, or status.
Unlike an “old letch”, “Cougar” and “Jaguar” are not negative labels
In general men date and mate women a few years younger than them. Great for women in their 20 somethings not so great for women in their 40’s. Yet few lament for the men in their 20 somethings that start slow in the dating world due to heavy competition, do they? Kind of sounds like sour grapes when women in their 40’s gripe about losing a privilege.
Yes, men being able to date younger women when they are older is a counterbalance to the “but women mature faster than men” claptrap and the dating-up in age women tend to do when they are younger.
That makes no sense. I think this is more the case of bitter men who want to keep women down and disrespect them. Dating is not any easier for men or women when we are young. But understanding this requires seeing women as human beings with their own experiences that don’t support a sexist narrative. Talk with women for any length of time, give them the same compassion you would give your male friends, and you will see this issue differently.
Women have the advantage when younger, it shifts to men’s advantage when you cross 40…. none of the guys are bitter…. just commenting on the reasons why. Women in their 20’s do it and later guys in their 40’s do the same thing. Where are women being held down or disrespected? No one is telling them who they have to date in their 20’s and no one should tell 40 yr old guys they shouldn’t date whomever they want either.
Precisely. This is simply the other side of the dynamic that women are more than happy to profit from when young, while ignoring men their own age.
But it’s men only who are blamed, at every turn.
The grand majority of women are with men pretty close to their own age. The grand majority of girls in high school and college, dated men their own age. I dated older guys because they were the ones to pay attention to me. My girlfriends made fun of me for it. And women are not “profiting” off anything. They are living life, just like men are. They are having experiences, just like men are. They experience pain, just like you as a man have. When you see women as fully formed people, and recongnise their diverse experiences, and are willing… Read more »
Hi Trey1963 “it shifts to mens advantage when you cross 40…” Is this a fact? In my country recent research show that if men have not become fathers before they are 40,then statistically their chance of becoming a father for the first time is close to zero. Women that marry or cohabit with older men choose the men that is already a father and can show that they manage to rais children. In other word,the men that found it very difficult to find a woman as a young man,will contiue to struggle,at least when it comes to finding a woman… Read more »
Not everyone wants kids? Is it acceptable that a fair percentage of guys never want kids or is that another women’s only decision? Thanks though for proving my point that women look to older guys that have resources as good choices for fatherhood…. as there is a lot about being a good dad that is about mental resources and attitude. Had the looks from young women when I’m out with my kids…then been hit on by women a decade my junior…. just not interested. Been married 35 yrs. Good dads while not rare are a commodity and there are women… Read more »
Hi Trey1963 It is true that not every guy wants children,and that research report said that they could not tell from the data how many of the childless men 40+ had chosen not have children. It is 25% of men here,while 15% of women have no kids. They saw a clear pattern, Women resirculated older men, men that had been married before ( or lived with a woman) and these men were fathers. And it was their resource as fathers that was highly valued. They had proved they could have kids,and raise and take care of children. Being good dads… Read more »
Some are those that just opt out of the “game”….. Being a dad today is fraught with risks….. There always were those guys that kept losing out in mating a musical chairs game…. Men propose, women choose….. I have a Step-brother that meets that ….he’s taller and handsomer than I….. made OK money…. but never managed to date anyone more than 3 months…..He is a nice warm guy, just not the type women want by their side…. he lacks that something… the protectiveness trait in his case, that would mark him as dad material. He would never step up in… Read more »
Hi Trey1963
“women still want the guy that will die to protect them and their kids..”
That is an interesting statement!
I have never thought of it that way,but it may be true.
It’s very basic in the human psyche….. Which is why the Dad type guy is still sought after…..a powerful loving protector leads to a recreation of feeling safe and protected in childhood, that many women want for themselves and offspring….. the trick is being self-aware enough to avoid the controlling tenancies that come with the role….. That would be a useful leadership skill to teach young men.
It’s certainly a myth. They want to believe that they are entitled to a certain type of woman because they experienced pain when they were younger. They feel they are owed it. They refuse to see women as fully formed people like themselves who have had their fair share of struggles. If they can deny women as real people, with real human experiences like themselves, their own belief system and entitlement to women crumbles. Certain men will always struggle with women no matter if they are 19 or 40 because they never learned to relate to women as human beings… Read more »
And women feel entitled to a certain type of man. You don’t seem to see it as a problem when a woman wants to date above her league? Men are vilified for aiming high, women are encouraged to do it. When she gets burnt, she blames men for shallowness while excusing her own shallowness.
If we want to have a dialogue between men and women on this, women need to acknowledge their own culpability in fostering the problem.
C-Bob
“Men are vilified for aiming high, ”
No men are not vilified for aiming high,just questioned why they see good looks as more important than integrity,character,kindness, wisdom, .
To be young usually means you look good.
To look good has nothing to do with our capacity to love.
Men should aim high, it is nothing wrong with that!
Not at all.
Just be aware what values you have and what you give priority to when you look for a person to love and share your life with.
Well said Iben. I would love if men spent time thinking about those qualities in women you listed that show a quality woman.
“why they see good looks as more important than integrity,character,kindness, wisdom, .” Similarly, we can ask why height, education and money are more importance than integrity, generosity, kindness and wisdom. My point all along – to both of you – is that it is not just men who reject women for superficial reasons. It isn’t just men who look at superficial things in women. It happens the other way around too. The only difference is that we get called “entitled” for expecting those things and you don’t. By the way Iben, you still haven’t listed any of your apparent “recent… Read more »
Hi C-Bob
“Similarly, we can ask why height, education and money are more importance than integrity, generosity, kindness and wisdom”.
I agree 100% !
C-Bob My answer was a bit unclear. I agree with you that intergrity,wisdom,gerosity ,kindness are far more important qualities to look for when we search for a partner to share our life with. And yes,women also make stupid choices based on what gives status ,a pleasant lifestyle and good looks etc. Women have the same responsibility to think deeper,look at what values she has . I have done all the most stupid choices any woman could make. Guilty. Married a man 187cm (6’2″?),lawyer,and thought my life would develop nicely from that day on. It did not ….. When a woman… Read more »
Some women certainly do feel entitled to a certain type of man and pick men based on shallow qualities. I don’t support or agree with those women. But that wasn’t exactly the topic being addressed here was it. You remember the article itself right? There are both men and women on both sides who encourage other men and women to use the other gender. It’s up to you to establish which kind of man or woman you want to be. It seems to me that you don’t want a discussion about what both men and women do because so far… Read more »
“all you’ve done is blame women and never uttered one word about poor male behavior but certainly expressed your views about what you think is poor female behavior.”
Then I suggest you read again and remove your victim filter.
This has nothing having to do with me having a victim filter. And if it does, you are equally guilty of the same victim filter since we both shared a past painful experince. The general inability to relate to and empathize with women is a repeat theme on GMP. All I said here was that women are people just like you who also experience painful things growing up. When you said women can be shallow, I agreed and said I didn’t agree with those women. You have yet to say you don’t agree with men being shallow or have yet… Read more »
You’re claiming women never have their voices heard. Oh, please give me a break. Barely a day goes by without another story about how difficult women have it. I’m not disagreeing that women have it hard in many areas of life – but what I am about to say is the important bit, so please pay attention… There are few places where men can talk about our experiences and have them taken seriously. There are few places where men can talk about our issues without them being framed in terms of how the affect women. The mainstream media are rarely… Read more »
Women have their voices heard by other women. Men may hear women but I don’t see any evidence that men are listening. When women try to share their experinces with men, they are told they are just playing the victim (like you did to me even though you also shared painful experiences) or they are argued agaisnt in other ways or that they don’t want to even hear about them at all because you’ve heard enough of the, already. But I don’t think men are listening at all in anyway that is developing men’s deeper understanding of women as people… Read more »
I have listened to lots of single women. Their main complaint seem to be that the right kind of men aren’t interested in them. Average joe who is just 5’11” with an ok but not stellar career isn’t good enough.
Trey, don’t you think your comment sounds like sour grapes by assuming women have all this privilege when they are young? Have you even ever spent a significant amount of time talking to young women and their experiences with men? I think you would be surprised to realize the grass is not greener. Please don’t stereotype women’s experiences. All of us….ALL of us should be working toward treating each other like worthy members of society who deserve respect, love and equality. None of those needs go away for anyone after a certain age. We all have good and bad experiences… Read more »
well said Erin!
Thanks Iben. Nice to see you!
Hi Erin, when I was 15 a girl rejected me. Of course, she had the right to do that. But she didn’t just reject my approach, she took great delight in being nasty. She told me she would “never date somebody so fat and ugly in a million years”. She took further delight in mocking me to her friends and making sick noises whenever I was around her (I couldn’t actually avoid her but would have liked to do so). Fast forward 23 years and this same girl now an adult woman, decided to approach me on a dating site.… Read more »
C-Bob, I hear you and understand your pain. I was chubby most of my life. Do you know many many mean comments boys hurled my way about my body? Plenty. One day I was getting off the bus and a boy who I thought was my friend and who I had a crush on kicked me in my butt and said, “look at that fat ass jiggle”. All the other boys laughed. I felt so demoralized. I could tell you plenty of stories of my own and other women. This is soemthing a lot of you guys forget. Women are… Read more »
No, having been through something like that, I do sympathise. My problem is this notion is that “women have it worse”. Despite your plea, the rest of your post is little more than a rant about how “women have it worse”.
In that, you are doing exactly what you accuse men of doing. If you’re going to keep demanding that men understand women, perhaps you should follow your own advice?
Where did I once say women have it worse? I gave you examples to show you that women go through their own stuff when younger because there are men here who have painted the idea that the grass is greener on the other side. Even beautiful women have emotional pain growing up. Men do not always treat beautiful women with respect. A man wanting to sleep with you means nothing if he doesn’t respect you. And is Infact hurtful if he doesn’t respect you. But I never once alluded to the idea that women have it worse. And when it… Read more »
It is Infact several men here saying they have it worse and that young women live in some magical state of perfection. I never have, so why are you still attacking me? Which is false. I see a lot of men here telling themselves a false story about women’s experiences so they can justify treating women’s age like a commodity I’m sorry Erin, but you are just as guilty of that; you do not get to play the victim. You derail conversations on GMP all the time to remind us all that women have it harder. There is no empathy… Read more »