Mothers can raise their daughters to be just like them, Gayle Goldin writes, but what about their sons?
By Gayle Goldin
The blogosphere is filled with the voices of feminist moms talking about childrearing. Or, rather, they are talking about raising their girls to be feminists. A couple of those mommies also talk about what it is like to parent a boy who doesn’t fit into the conventional “boy” roles – what do you do when your son wants to wear a tutu? Raise him to understand that he, too, can be anything, wear anything, and love anyone he wants to.
But what about me? I have two sons. My younger one is imaginative, emotionally intuitive, and says “I love you” with a depth of meaning that is amazing. My older son only wears sports team t-shirts, can tell you the ERA of every major league pitcher, and uses as few words as possible to describe how he feels (by which I mean, “I don’t know”). Yup, I am a mother of a “mainstream” boy.
I read through those mommy blogs and think – great that you are raising your girls to be feminists, but really, do you have another choice? What mother doesn’t want her daughter to be strong, self-reliant, comfortable in her own skin, confident in her intelligence, and capable to deal with the inherent gender biases (and over-sexualizing of women) she is likely to face her whole life?
The real challenge is for us – the parents of boys who could live their lives resting on the privilege and power bestowed upon them for being men –to go out of our way to raise our sons to be feminists, too.
So what does that really mean? How do I make sure my sons embody the beliefs I hold dear to my own heart?
As my husband says, we need our children to realize that gender equality isn’t just good for women, but rather, in the long-run it’s in their self-interest, too. A society that is inclusive of everyone allows for more individualism, promotes more freedom of thought, and creates an overall just world.
Take our family leave laws. If we lived in a society where gender equality was a given, we’d have paid leave laws that allowed for employees, regardless of their sex, to take time off to bond with a newborn child, take care of dad when he breaks a hip, or be there holding your wife’s hand while she struggles with chemo.
Talking to a 10 year old about paid leave as a means of discussing equality and fairness doesn’t really work. What does work is challenging myself to continually find the windows of opportunity to discuss what equality and fairness means in their day-to-day lives. So, on Superbowl Sunday I vow to not just pass the wings and talk about the flag on the play, but point out to my sons the far less obvious error: the average salary for an NFL player is $1.9 million; the average salary for an NFL cheerleader? $50 a game.
Originally appeared at WFRI.org.
—Photo slgckgc/Flickr
“Priveledge and power bestowed on them for being men”? WTF does that even mean? (Rhetorical question.) I sure felt privileged when I was repeatedly raped and made fun of BECAUSE I WAS MALE. Even when I tried to get help, no one believed me because I was male. Yet, if the same exact thing happened to a woman people from both genders would be up in arms. Sorry for sounding kind of mad, but I was already deeply offended, and reading this, thinking I’d get some encouragment is really frustrating. Please understand how I feel. Truly alone. And in my… Read more »
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you weaken your sons for the benefit of your future daughters in law.mother’s war against sons will cause massive social conflict
Kind of reminds me of this article “Why I’m Not A Feminst” http://postmasculine.com/why-im-not-a-feminist
@Norah F Alright so I will assume you are able to read the figures and determine for yourself that what I claimed was true, namely that the NISVS records a 50-50 proportion of rape victims between men and women within the last year. I’ll repeat what I said above briefly: Look at table 2.1 & 2.2 on p18/19 and note that “made to penetrate” is their way of recording male rape victims. Observe that in the last 12 months men and women were both raped at the rate of 1.1% http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/NISVS_Report2010-a.pdf Assuming that you can find this data do you… Read more »
David, or Mark Neil, will someone explain to me how “in the last year” the rates for men are so similar to women, but “over the lifetime” they are so vastly different?
No idea. Given the study can’t even acknowledge men can be raped by a woman, and does not separate between forced, attempted to force and drunken sex for men, it’s hardly surprising they never went into enough detail to determine that discrepancy. Perhaps the reason is because men are less likely to actually report being raped than forced to penetrate? Given most male rape was experienced before the victim was 10 years old (meaning prison rape is not accounted for), and forced to penetrate afterwards, as well as the general idea that a boy being sexually abused by an older… Read more »
There’s a lot of possible reasons and we don’t know. IMO the lifetime rate is simply very inaccurate. It’s probably inaccurate (low) for women too but just very very bad for men. Human beings have bad memories. Unfortunately most people think they have a good memory but a lot of the time memory is reconstructed. So trying to recall events from the distant past doesn’t work so well for this survey because it tries to avoid using the triggers that people usually use for recalling this stuff. It does so to avoid bias. Ask someone if they are “raped” and… Read more »
@Joanna, I’ve heard that over time men forget trauma more than women. Or maybe it’s only been the last few years where women have started raping men more, a lot has to do with alcohol so maybe hookup culture is a big part of it?
David, or Mark Neil, will someone explain to me how “in the last year” the rates for men are so similar to women, but “over the lifetime” they are so vastly different? I wager the difference is a combination of things. 1. More men speaking up about being abused/raped. 2. Men finally being taken seriously when speaking up about being abused/raped. 3. The conversation on abuse/rape finally getting around to accounting for men. 4. People finally coming around to the idea that women actually do have a capacity for violence. I don’t think its a matter that more men are… Read more »
I am getting some extreme Deja Vu, was this comment written long ago but caught in moderation?
All of these comments just make me want to cry and yell at the same time.
There is just too much that needs to be explained. Sigh.
Have you considered the possibility that you might have it wrong and you are the one who needs to learn?
Why do articulate position statements by men, about feminism and its role in their lives make you want to cry? Is it the recognition that others are not easily swayed to side with ideology that actively works against their interests and disregards their inherent worth? Don’t cry, think.
GMP: Terrible article, but apparently great to get a conversation going so, thumbs up I guess.
“It’s Not Easy to Raise Your Son to Be a Feminist”
It’s not easy, and it’s not productive. Let them choose what they want to be.
I don’t want to preach you what is wrong and what is right, because parents- including me- are making mistakes all the time. We are not perfect and don’t have to be at all. But there are mistakes what the children will forgive later, and there are ones what they never will.
“It’s not easy to raise your son to be a feminist”
Well I really agree with it. It is very difficult to indoctrinate a person (even child) to act against his/her self- interest.
“What mother doesn’t want her daughter to be strong, self-reliant, comfortable in her own skin, confident in her intelligence.” That describes my wife, four sisters, and my two daughters to a tee – and none of them are feminists. Quite the contrary, they see feminism for what it has become anti-equality, and anti-male. “So, on Superbowl Sunday I vow to not just pass the wings and talk about the flag on the play, but point out to my sons the far less obvious error: the average salary for an NFL player is $1.9 million; the average salary for an NFL… Read more »
Why would you raise your son as a feminist?
What’s in it for him,other than a pathological
vulnerability to shaming language and a lifetime of mindless servitude to any female willing to acknowledge his existence?
Hopefully his real life experiences will aid him in seeing truth rather than dogma,as it sounds like his education is decidedly one-sided.
What about his interests?
What about his right to equal and due process under the law?
Is he to be relegated to second class citizen for a lifetime?
I feel sorry for this young man,being trained to enter the grinder willingly.
Maybe it’s because on some level he realizes that feminism or at least what sometimes is identified as feminism is anti-male. I’m sure you’re not the only “feminist” he’s encountered. I’ve seen misandric posts on feminist websites. In the rare circumstance that they are challenged, they are not challenged as non feminist positions. They are accepted as a type of feminism. When you point this out to other feminists, they tell you that not all feminists are the same, which is true, but they have never told me that anyone truly holding this position can’t truly be a feminist. Educate… Read more »
“What mother doesn’t want her daughter to be strong, self-reliant, comfortable in her own skin, confident in her intelligence, and capable to deal with the inherent gender biases (and over-sexualizing of women) she is likely to face her whole life? The real challenge is for us – the parents of boys who could live their lives resting on the privilege and power bestowed upon them for being men” I pity any boy raised in a family that feels encouraging a daughter to be strong, self-reliant, comfortable, confident, intelligent, and capable, but would teach their sons to not to rest “on… Read more »
Ross. You weren’t consulted. It is.
I wonder if mom really thinks the pay differential is due to sexism or if she simply thinks she can get over on a ten-year old.
Ross Felix,
I presume you would not grandfather current gender-normed physical requirements?
I would suggest analyzing the requirements and making the “correct” whatever that may be. At that point, once they are normalized (i.e. if a current average adult weighs X pounds, a fire fighter should be able to carry that person to safety for Y number of feet) then to be a fire fighter you need to be able to do that. If you pass that and any other reasonable standards, I don’t care what gender, race etc you are.
However, putting my life at risk for the sake of equality makes no sense.
Generally speaking I don’t think that equality is something that’s taught. You set an example, and you show them why it’s the way to behave. I also believe that the limit to what a woman can do is biological (i.e. produce semen and while technically a woman can pee standing up, it’s probably not recommended). I do have one issue with the way the term feminist is used (not necessarily in this piece). Some use it to assert female superiority, others use it to assert the need for equality. With the biological exceptions / recommendations above, I see no reason… Read more »
I don’t think she was saying that players and cheerleaders should be paid equally. I think she was trying to point out the grotesque inequalities.
I wonder what would happen if all cheerleaders went on strike and said, “We’re not going to do this work anymore. We’re sick of being sex objects.” Would people just shrug and go to the games anyway? Would Americansaccept the fact that the culture of a football game will feel more like a soccer game? I strongly doubt it.
Football isn’t just a game in this country. And it’s more than big business.
Actually, the Chicago Bears got rid of their cheerleaders in the 80s and didn’t miss a beat. It may be more difficult for some teams like the Dallas Cowboys to do, since their cheerleaders have a much higher profile, but even then, I don’t see people complaining that the camera is focused on the play and not the cheerleaders during telecasts.
Mothers may want to use the pay difference to illustrate to their sons that substance is much more valuable than window dressing.
“I wonder what would happen if all cheerleaders went on strike and said, “We’re not going to do this work anymore. We’re sick of being sex objects.” Would people just shrug and go to the games anyway? Would Americansaccept the fact that the culture of a football game will feel more like a soccer game? I strongly doubt it.” Actually i’m pretty sure you’re wrong. Obviously we can’t test that theory unless the cheerleaders actually went on strike, but considering the fact that the Packers have only sporadically employed cheerleaders and are one of the most (if not *the*most) financially… Read more »
You can’t fully control how your child will turn out. Ultimately, much of it is out of your hands. The best you can do is to control what kind of house your sons grow up in and influence the messages they receive from their parents. You can’t make your son into a feminist, ultimately, but you can make sure he grows up in a feminist household. Parents can’t by themselves make a child feminist or non-feminist. Think about all those parents who say about a child, “I don’t know where he learned that. I certainly didn’t teach him to behave… Read more »
About the player/cheerleader inequity:
There’s a simple solution to that. Balance out the Superbowl with another medium in which it’s the women who make much more than men: hetero porn movies. Problem solved. And, it’s a great way to address misogyny, body image issues, objectification, the “male gaze,” etc.
What I’m hearing is that the author thinks it will be more challenging to raise her older son to be a feminist than it will be to raise her younger son. Her older son is more “mainstream” in his personality, communication style, dress, and hobbies than her younger son. The younger son is, what, more “in touch with his feminine side” somehow? All I have is this superficial distinction to go on. I admit I know very little about your situation. By itself, though, this doesn’t explain why you are more worried about one son than the other. Stoic sports… Read more »
I agree that stoic sports fans can be strong feminists. Jackson Katz is a former All American football player. He calls himself pro-feminist and has a fine video called Tough Guize. I also know some Air Force Academy graduates who are pro-feminist. They say that the fundamentalist influences at the academy made them pro-feminist.
I hate to say it, but some of the most misogynistic men I have known are “sensitive artists.”
Unfortunately in respect to “sensitive men”, Marie and wellokaythen, I think I might have to agree to an extent. I think that accepting vulnerability and considering the adoption of a feminist viewpoint takes some variable level of inner strength on the part of men who have been raised under a patriarchal society structure (so essentially all men). Without that inner strength, those same characteristics, among others, can potentially be tainted by insecurity. My opinion is that an important difference between the noted stoic sports fans, All American football players, Air Force Academy graduates and sensitive men and artists (not mentioning… Read more »
” I would tell her to raise her sons to be everything she would have raised her daughters if she had any; “to be strong, self-reliant, comfortable in her own skin, confident in her intelligence, and capable to deal with the inherent gender biases”. ” Given you’re talking about raising a son, you’d think you’d change the pronoun to the appropriate him. Oh well, doesn’t matter anyways. No matter how a feminist raises their son, they will still never be good enough, because they don’t have a uterus. A feminist man truly does need to have a special level of… Read more »
I was directly quoting the text in the article, hence the quotation marks, so no I wouldn’t change the pronouns.
I was raised a feminist. I am a woman. And I now resent my parents because of it.
If you love your boys which of course you do then feminism may not be the best way to show that. They are people too, and feminism is not very interested in ‘the radical idea that men are people’.
Can you say some more about that please? I realise it’s a hard topic to talk about. There’s so much feminist indoctrination just through the mass media and society’s attitudes that I am wondering how much effect more stuff coming from the parents could effect things but I suppose it depends how zealous they were/are and also whether there’s some other stuff going on like a parent who’s abusive ANYWAY for unrelated reasons but also uses their feminist ideology as a conduit for the abuse. Actually I’d love to hear your story even regardless of the topic of this article… Read more »
Thanks I will write about it on my blog and post the link or ask Lisa if I can post it here at GMP.
Yes, QRG, let me know — I would definitely consider posting here.
“There’s so much feminist indoctrination just through the mass media and society’s attitudes” “uses their feminist ideology as a conduit for the abuse” “it’s harder for a woman to see the problems with feminism. It’s not like men are standing up to tell women about it that much.” I don’t think you know what the word “feminist” means. In fact, I’m certain you do not. Feminist is nothing more and nothing less than someone who believes in equality. Feminists are not some mass entity you appear to think we are. We do not operate by groupthink and we certainly all… Read more »
May I ask where to find these feminists? Where can I say I am worried of misandry in our media, pedophile hysteria targetting mostly males where men can’t sit on planes next to kids that aren’t their own and other male issues? I’ve been asking this question for days and it seems that kind of feminist isn’t easily found but pops up here n there in comments. Considering the sheer size of feminism and the decades of history it has, there must be an area on the internet full of egalitarian feminists surely? Where misogyny or misandry gets called out… Read more »
While the poem (kind of awful as poetry – you sure that’s not just a quote?) is possibly trying to be fair it fails in that because feminists generally don’t comprehend male issues. They don’t comprehend them because they don’t try and have no real interest that way. It reads like a list of issues that a feminist made up and told men they OUGHT to have. And what about you? You’re pretending to be sympathetic to equality and at the same time shooting down the opposition. Making childish statements about how everyone but you is ignorant and so on.… Read more »
“Feminist is nothing more and nothing less than someone who believes in equality.”
Really?
Well I believe in equality but I don’t believe that:
Men are more to blame for society then women.
Women are hurt more by society then men.
As far as I can tell that makes me an anti-feminist in the eyes of feminists.
M. Light: “I don’t think you know what the word “feminist” means. In fact, I’m certain you do not. Feminist is nothing more and nothing less than someone who believes in equality.” And I don’t think you realize that feminist doesn’t neccesarily mean someone who believes in equality. There are two MAJOR strands of feminism from my view: 1) Those that advocate women as vicitms of oppressions by men or male-dominated society and that all men are priveldged no matter what their standings and situations in life. This strand also invalidates and dismisses male concerns and hurt as nothing more… Read more »
“Feminist is nothing more and nothing less than someone who believes in equality. Feminists are not some mass entity you appear to think we are. We do not operate by groupthink and we certainly all don’t agree on the same things, making the “zealous” abusers you describe that operate by apparent brainwashing all the more ludicrous.” These two comments are contradictory. If you are not one entity and don’t operate under groupthink, on what grounds do you claim what a feminists believes. The simple fact is, as an entity (IE, influence on government policy and organizations like NOW, the women’s… Read more »
Larry. You’re absolutely right. I get the strong impression from the article that it would not be sufficient for mom. Think about how she compares her two boys.
Gayle, as the father of a son and daughter (both of whom certainly qualify as feminists, tho I am not sure either would use that label) and grandfather of two wondrous grand-daughters, I want to thank you for the question. It is important. I have a couple of responses. First, if you just reverse the pronouns on what any mother would want for her daughter, you have a pretty good formula for your son as well. Second, although I am sure you never imagined being called “abusive” of your own son (this anonymous medium tends to encourage coarseness), there is… Read more »
I’m pretty dismayed by people who think that parents don’t have a right to influence their children. I am deeply grateful that my parents made me more aware of anti-Semitism, racism and misogyny and that they didn’t pass the wings during the SuperBowl . Even though I left the Catholic church I was raised in, I am grateful that they passed on the best Catholic values to me. So please don’t feel bad about trying to raise your sons to be feminist. If you’re not pushy and act with integrity, they’ll probably be grateful when they’re older. I have a… Read more »
@Marie, I believe they are suspicious of what KIND of feminism is being taught, the egalitarian version that teaches how bad sexism is against women AND men, gynocentric which focuses solely on how women are oppressed from what I see whilst ignoring men, extremist feminism which is quite frankly hatred of men. I was raised on catholic values but I found it offensive after about 12 or 13, and I do not like that I was taught it from a young age due to homophobia, negative views of sexuality and original sin. I think a lot of the feminists commenting… Read more »
Marie: “I have a message for Larry Daloz. A strong young man who really loves justice, really respects women, and really appreciates being a good man is a feminist.” And I have a question for Marie: I am a strong young man who really loves justice, really respects women, and really appreciates being a good man. Yet, I’m hesitant to call myself a feminist. Why? Read my “Bullied By Girls and Women: One Man’s Journey” on this site and you’ll get full detail on it. The gist of it is, the feminists whom I told my story too about being… Read more »
“So, am I still as you describe or do I have to subscribe to every single tenant of feminist, including the ones that HURT ME, in order to be accepted as what you believe a good man is?”
The correct answer here is “Yes.”
“While there are more cases like yours, they indeed do not outweigh ( or even compare to that matter) to how women are traumatized by men.” How are you so certain that there are so many more cases as to not even compare to how women are “traumatized”? Men’s suffering can’t even get acknowledged, let alone quantified. And this is due to feminism making men’s suffering into a non-issue or worst, into an attempt to traumatize women (IE, men are claiming they are suffering in order to harm women… read any feminist literature on Parental alienation to see examples of… Read more »
Did Jen’s comment get deleted? I’m reading it in my email but I can’t find where it is posted? If she is reading, I’d say the reason there are more male commenatators is because this is a site for men first n foremost. You’d probably get more women comment at a female orientated website. I’d guess there is 80% men 20% women here.
Feminists also believe that parents have the right to mutilate their son’s bodies to influence their children. Although I’ve encountered many feminists who believe that circumcision is wrong and would never elect that for their child, I’ve yet to find a feminist who wants to stop circumcision of boys. I’ve heard the argument that a ban hasn’t affected the rate of female circumcision in the Middle East and Africa and actually made it more dangerous, but I’ve yet to see feminists mobilizing to overturn these “harmful bans”. I’ve also missed the stories of the 1,000s of botched female circumcisions in… Read more »
I think most feminists would like to agree with the logic of not cutting up little boys junk but they have a bigger loyalty to feminism and they figure (correctly) that giving ANY ground on the idea that men can be victims is a threat to the existence of their entire movement. Again and again and again feminism is hiding male victims. That’s what the laughter at male circumcision is about to me. Having said that I am seem more of a softening compared to 20 years ago. It seems that these days a feminist in good standing can talk… Read more »
I know there are variations within feminism, but I really wish that you guys on this site would understand the majority of feminists are not extremists. That’s like saying all Muslims are terrorists or what have you. Please do not judge a group by their extremes. I am a feminist, I really like men. I have sex with one and am in love with one (same one, for the record). I find both men’s and women’s issues interesting and valid for discussion. Maybe feminism hides male victims: it is not intentional, I would assume. It is merely because women’s issues… Read more »
Artemis: It is merely because women’s issues have only really been listened to recently and because women make the majority of the feminist group, so naturally we will be most interested in women’s issues. If it were just a matter of the movement being mostly women and therefore most of the focus will be on women then most of us would not have a problem with it. However with a lot of feminists it goes deeper than that. Male circumcision, as far as I am aware, is a cosmetic choice which does not inhibit sexual ability. While I’ll agree its… Read more »
“but I really wish that you guys on this site would understand the majority of feminists are not extremists.” And we wish that you, who claim feminists aren’t all like that, would realise 1: that the feminists who aren’t like that are not the ones doing activism and lobbying government for change. A non-activist feminist who is about equality really has no say, any more than I as a man can define what our government is about because it is mostly men (adespite all the claims to my privilege due to that very point). Point being, when we are discussing… Read more »
“1: that the feminists who aren’t like that are not the ones doing activism and lobbying government for change” Just had to respond to that, I am like that I and have a large feminist circle of fellow activists that I consider to be similar to myself. We make change. both locally and to state legislation. I have visited my representatives down at the state capital with my friends from the YWCA and NOW more times that I can count. I work at rape crisis center that provide services for male victims (both adult and children). I advocate for male… Read more »
Firstly could you not use the word “patriarchy” because it’s offensive.
What services do you provide for male victims? Do they get the same service as women or do you refuse to allow them access to some services? Surveys say men are about 50% of the victims of rape. Are 50% of you callers men and if they are not what are you doing to fix that?
Do you support sex segregation in providing services to victims as is seen with domestic violence?
How many times have you seen your representative for an issue that benefits men?
We provide medical advocacy and legal advocacy , counseling, a crisis hotline and family counseling service to male victims, just like female victims. Significant others of any gender (who are non-victims and non-offenders who want to support their gf/bf or son/daughter, etc) are welcome to counseling services or support groups as well. I don’t know what survey you speak of. I am a published researcher in the area of sexual violence prevention and I have not seen any scientific (peer review journal) studies that have this percentage. Our greatest outreach efforts have been from other men in our program that… Read more »
How many men? What percentage? And are you trying to figure out why you get far fewer male victims come forwards (assuming it is less than 50%) Do you support sex segregation in shelters? What issues for men have you lobbied on? You raised those issues. I want you to clarify please. If you are a published researcher in this field then why do you have no idea what I am talking about? I am talking about the NISVS – the National Intimate partner and Sexual Violence Survey. Have you heard of that? Is that a good enough source for… Read more »
I’m pretty sure he’s referring to the CDC’s most recent sexual and intimate partner violence survey, more specifically, the previous year results. Not sure if the centre for disease control meets your “scientific (peer review journal)” criteria. “…the systematic use of oppression and degradation of women…” It’s this assumption that it is a system of “oppression and degradation” that is offensive. Gender roles developed for a reason, long before “patriarchy” (little “p”) developed. Those gender roles restricted and benefited both genders within the environment they were practised in. It was the advent of the industrial revolution that changed things so… Read more »
@DavidBryon – I just reviewed the NISVS, in their highlights of the 2010 Findings they clearly state “Women are disproportionally affected by sexual violence, intimate partner violence and stalking” So, your source isn’t helping your point. Your source found that “nearly 1 in 5 women and 1 in 71 men have been raped in their lifetime” , so I don’t expect a perfect 50/50 ratio in use of our sexual violence services. Not to mention, some of our clients do not identify as male or female. My TBTN is not anti-male, men are encouraged to march and victims of any… Read more »
You didn’t look at the report. You looked at the summary which misrepresents the facts found by the survey . Yes this would be an example of the prejudices and victim hiding we were talking about above. No matter – the survey itself has the facts and you can judge for yourself if the summary is fair. Specifically look at table 2.1 & 2.2 on p18/19 and not that “made to penetrate” is their way of hiding male victims so they don’t have to report them. Observe that in the last 12 months men and women were both raped at… Read more »
“Your source found that “nearly 1 in 5 women and 1 in 71 men have been raped in their lifetime”” 1: That isn’t the previous year numbers, that’s the lifetime numbers. 2: The definition of rape for the purposes of this study does not include a female forcing a male to penetrate her (see definitions on page 17). That figure comes in, over a lifetime, at 1 in 21. I believe And prison rape was not included in the study. Take note of the “Violence in the last 12 months”: On page 18 and 19, note the charts, where women… Read more »
“misuse of your CDC NISVS reference, I am not going to continue with this thread since you disregard factual information.” Well thanks for proving my suspicion Norah of many people only looking at the quick facts part of the CDC report and assuming male rape. In the last 12 months 1.1% of women were the victims of rape or attempted rape, 1.1% of men were forced to penetrate. Of those men, 79.2% report a female rapist. So basically in a 1 year period, fairly equal levels of male and female rape victims, and 40% of rapists were female. Problem is… Read more »
Norah F. Said, “Ok, how can I describe ‘the systematic use of oppression and degradation of women within a social system of rigid rules and expectations around gender that unjustly overvalues certain qualities and undervalues others’ in a less offensive manner?” You need to acknowledge the systematic use of oppression and degradation of men within the same system of rigid rules and expectations around gender that unjustly overvalues certain qualities and undervalues others. The word “patriarchy” implies that men don’t experience said oppression and degradation, and that the proper response to any gender-based legal issue a man dare voice is… Read more »
“I have visited my representatives down at the state capital with my friends from the YWCA and NOW more times that I can count. ” The fact you visited your representative with “friends” from the YWCA and NOW demonstrates those visits were for women’s issues, not men’s. Perhaps I need to adendum my assertion: “the political activism and lobbying government for change done by femonists is not representative of the feminism you claim is the “majority” (not, the person I was replying to stated egalitarians are the majority)” And I must ask, when you are doing you advocacy for men… Read more »
I guess it depends what you mean by “extremist” but you see like an extremist to me yourself. To me it is extremism that you are defending genital mutilation of babies here. What is the purpose of that? Do you think parents ought to be able to cut up their little kids junk or not? It’s not a complex question. But you seem to want to say it’s cool to cut up little boys but not girls. Actually as I understand it FGM is performed on older children who are usually volunteering for it. Although younger than 18 they are… Read more »
“I know there are variations within feminism, but I really wish that you guys on this site would understand the majority of feminists are not extremists. That’s like saying all Muslims are terrorists or what have you. Please do not judge a group by their extremes.”
It isn’t like saying all Muslims are terrorists; it’s like saying that all Communists are totalitarians. Some may be good-willed, but even they still subscribe to a totalitarian ideology.
Who cares if your child is a feminist? Really, who cares? The best thing you can do for your child as far as political ideology goes is to teach him to be a free thinker. Teach him to respect both genders, and address issues of gender as they come up, organically (and they will!). Introduce -isms as thought experiments rather than good or bad ideologies, and let him mull them over for himself. He will decide what kind of -isms he will embrace later, if he chooses to embrace any at all. As others have said, it is particularly problematic… Read more »
I meant to delete those first couple sentences (kinda harsh) but I screwed it up when the page refreshed and I had to copy & paste from the notepad file I was writing on. Mods, PLEEEEASE address this refresh issue!
I think it reads fine, actually. Just MHO.
test1
Aaaaand I shouldn’t have put “both genders,” as many people identify with neither M nor F.
That’s a great observation.
This is a really interesting way of seeing it. I do that a lot with my kids about religion. They say, “Who is this baby Jesus?” (though they both thought it was “Baby Cheez-Its” for a long time) and I say things like, “Some people believe…” We do the same thing with all religions and even Santa. Someday they’ll catch on to the fact that we aren’t teaching them anything specific, but I’ll always be honest about what I believe but tell them that I really have no clue what’s “true”. Smart to do the same with ideology, as long… Read more »
The NBA player Vs. cheerleader example was so plain wrong (it’s about the show potential, not the gender at all), it makes the author look quite biased – even if well meant.
It sounds like that kind of “skewed feminism” that’s pro-equality only in speaking, but strongly biased toward women in practice. You know, “Women first!”.
For the sake of those children, I hope I’m wrong.
“The NBA player Vs. cheerleader example was so plain wrong”
As Danny points out above, it’s pretty misogynist. In the context of team sports, the first thing that comes to mind for girls is cheerleading? Why not just cut directly to foot binding?
The shocking truth is that I have never met anyone- male or female who called themselves a feminist and seemed happy. This is particularly true of young people. Many quite successful government employees call themselves feminists and seem quite together but this seems part of the job description.
I pity the boy.
Moderator’s note: Parts of this comment have been deleted due to being in violation of our commenting policy. We did, however, wish to address the following aspect of the comment. We feel that with the direction this conversation is headed, it is important to address why many comments are being moderated. Below please find an excerpt of LBC’s original moderated post (in bold): So men on a site advertised as a site for men giving a totally unapologetic opinion from a male point of view are censored for not toeing a pro-feminist/anti-male line – for making the claim that teaching… Read more »
Do you happen to recall where you’ve seen a feminist web site saying that teaching kids about men’s rights is child abuse? We don’t really seem to get that sort of feminist around here. I don’t think any of the feminists here could sign off on “feminism 101” even. Bad luck on being moderated but the fact remains that this is a feminist site that is actually attempting to talk seriously about whether raising boys with a certain heavy ideological kind of feminism could be classified as abusive. You tell me another feminist web site where that discussion can take… Read more »
My first comment is still in moderation and my second got edited to lose all its meaning. We’ll see if the third one goes through, or if it’ll also disappear. http://www.slate.com/articles/life/dear_prudence/2012/01/husband_in_love_with_the_nanny_what_can_i_do_.3.html ^Just go down to the “Dad-Related Dilemma” question. And related to the above http://jezebel.com/5873726/what-should-you-do-when-someone-you-love-becomes-a-mens-rights-activist “Bad luck on being moderated but the fact remains that this is a feminist site that is actually attempting to talk seriously about whether raising boys with a certain heavy ideological kind of feminism could be classified as abusive. You tell me another feminist web site where that discussion can take place.” Given the state… Read more »
Hey LBC,
I actually tried to email you when we pulled your first comment for moderation, and then again after the second one, but your email didn’t work. Would love to keep you involved in the conversation. Please email me at joanna @ goodmenproject.com
Thanks.