I ask myself, what is the value in aligning myself with men’s rights AND feminism? Answer: Because I can.
Recently Jimmy LaSalvia, Leader of GOProud, an organization for gay conservatives, struggled to rationalize why anti-gay conservatives at CPAC should welcome his organization. In this particular case, Jimmy is fighting an uphill battle. He’s gonna have to convince a group of bigots to be inclusive of the very group (gays) that those same bigots profit from attacking, vilifying and dehumanizing. Put simply, LaSalvia has aligned himself with an organization that hates him. I laughed at LaSalvia when I read about him. It seemed pretty comical to me that he would put himself in camp full of people who loathe him based simply on who he is.
The angry extremists in both these camps have enough rigid dogma to give the Vatican library a run for its money. And they defend it fiercely because somewhere back down the road, defending their dogmatic beliefs came to mean more to them than actually solving the problems they abhor.
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And then, when I’m all done laughing it up, it occurs to me that I’m not all that different than Mr. LaSalvia. Honestly, why I would ever choose to align myself with men’s rights or feminism? There are extremist individuals in both camps that clearly hate people like me. They have enough rigid dogma to give the Vatican library a run for its money. And they defend it fiercely because somewhere back down the road, defending their dogmatic beliefs came to mean more to them than actually solving the problems they abhor.
And yet, here I am. Aligning myself with both camps. Jumping right in to the mix, (on a process level, no less.) And the reason I’m doing it is simple. If we continue to let the dogmatic true believers suck all the bandwidth, drive the public discourse and represent the movement for change, we’re all screwed. Because they are alienating the middle, the independent voters, if you will, the place where minds get changed and things like gay marriage go from an anathema to a political reality. And they’re alienating people because of their volatile, divisive, and polarizing rhetoric, which is overshadowing ideas which otherwise might actually find even more widespread support.
And I want to be clear here. For the purposes of this article, I’m speaking about gender dialogues in terms of people who are working on men’s rights issues and feminists, a small minority of each group which qualify as extremist in their views. By this I mean, I’m not talking about most feminists or the full range of men who support some kind of discourse on men’s rights, most of which would not label themselves as MRAs. I’m talking about the small number of men and women in any camp which hold extreme binary and polarizing positions.
Its also important to note that the larger realm of feminists and people focusing on men’s rights still don’t hold the entire universe of men’s and women’s interests or world views. Far from it. They represent only two zones on a vast spectrum of ideas. The dialogue about and between men and women is not limited to any simple binary. But we need to understand what it looks like when conversations careen toward the binary and the high costs we pay when the wider range of voices are shouted down by overheated polarizing rhetoric.
And finally, I am not saying that feminists in any way equal MRAs or vice versa. I am saying extremists equal extremists, regardless of their ideology. So, if you are not an extremist, than I am not talking about you or your ideology.
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Extremists don’t like it when dilettantes like me go mucking around in the divisions between supporters of men’s rights and feminism. But the fact is, if there’s white male privilege in the world, then clearly, we have to acknowledge white female privilege, too, right? Hello? Hillary? I mean, I want to have THAT conversation without being shouted down. And there’s more stuff I think about that’s guaranteed to piss somebody off. For one thing, I don’t view women as the enemy. (Shocking, I know. But there it is.) Nor do I view being the primary care giver to a child in any way shape or form exclusively woman’s work. The fact is, I see the social and sexual oppression that women face every day, but I also see the social and sexual oppression that men face every day. And what I’m saying here is not an exercise in tit for tat, or false equivalencies; its simply the truth. Anyone who’s not hell bent on proving their gender’s side has it worse can see this. All men’s issues and all women’s issues are interlinked. And they are interlinked in ways that are best solved by creating partnerships among people with divergent belief systems. But discussions exploring partnership and collaboration across ideologies can bring fierce reprisals.
A wave of collaborative feminists, men’s rights advocates and others who are unaligned, are having remarkable, insightful and powerful conversations on the Good Men Project. It must be quite aggravating to militants to see the troops leaving the trenches and walking out across no man’s land to talk.
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The Good Men Project regularly faces a firestorm of angry polarizing attacks by extremists that simply can not imagine how a men’s site hosting a wide range of men’s stories and conversations could be valid (or god forbid, helpful to their causes). Instead of seeing the Good Men Project as a way to move outside of their ideological echo chambers and present feminist or men’s rights ideas in spaces they normally don’t have access to, the most dogmatic extremists assume negative intent in every utterance. Its a missed opportunity of tragic proportions. A conversation undiscovered. Another bridge burned before it is ever even built. Extremist MRAs and Feminists want nothing less than the complete silencing of the GMP. They advocate for isolation and shutting down of the site.
Meanwhile, a wave of collaborative feminists, men’s rights supporters, and others who are unaligned are having remarkable, insightful and powerful conversations on the Good Men Project. It must be quite aggravating to the hard core partisans to see their troops leaving the trenches and walking out across no man’s land to talk.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been verbally assaulted by strident MRA’s because of my association with the “obviously feminist site” Good Men Project. Meanwhile, the very next commenter will dismiss me (not just my writing) based on broad brush feminism generalizations about male privilege and patriarchy. But if many of us here at the Good Men Project are getting these kinds of reactions from both ends of the ideological spectrum, then we are CLEARLY in the right place for real and generative discussions that are creating change.
As society changes, and in some very real ways evolves, gender extremists are not tracking the cultural evolution happening around us. They remain in the trenches firing round after round at the enemy. They are addicted to the war.
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Don’t get me wrong. The true believers of the gender wars have done some good work. God bless their little binary hearts. They deserve credit for bringing women’s and men’s issues into the spotlight, and moving issues forward that need to be addressed. But the extremists among these two movements have become a big part of the problem. And they certainly will not be part of the solution unless they bring their thinking forward to the here and now. As society changes and in some very real ways evolves, gender extremists are not tracking the cultural evolution happening around us. They remain in the trenches firing round after round at the enemy. They are addicted to the war.
The challenge is that people have bound themselves to binary styles of discussion. It is the primary mode of communication (or lack thereof.) We need to learn to listen to each other and we need to talk in ways that present our grievances, but hold our anger in abeyance. We need to presume good will on the part of those who hold other positions. And that needs to be reflected in how we communicate.
For example: “Men are facing unjust legal challenges because of antiquated legislation put in place a generation ago to address women’s issues.”
…works a lot better than…
“Men are facing unjust legal challenges because of antiquated legislation put in place a generation ago to address women’s issues, you stupid white knight, mangina asshole!!!” (I’m foregoing the all caps here, but you know what I mean…)
Believe me, I fully understand that there is a whole host of devastating human rights and equality battles which we need to continue fighting. We know about the full range of valid women’s rights issues in the home, on the street and in the workplace. We all know that women continue to be assaulted and raped. We know this has to stop. What feminists are screaming bloody murder about continues to deserve to the highlighted. Every day. And they certainly don’t need my approval or permission to do so. So please, carry on the good fight for women’s issues.
But not to the exclusion of what men are saying about their own lives and their own experiences. We must also honor and act on what is coming out of the men’s rights movement.
♦◊♦
The fact is, men in relationships are the victims of brutal and bloody physical violence committed against them by women; a huge and mostly hidden trend of violence that goes unaddressed, simply because it happens to men. Just look at the CDC’s (1)National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey | 2010 Summary Report. page 2. The report states: “More than 1 in 3 women (35.6%) and more than 1 in 4 men (28.5%) in the United States have experienced rape, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner in their lifetime.”(1)
In case you missed that last part, men are victims of rape, too. By women.
Divorced fathers are regularly removed from their children’s lives by a court system that view mothers as the only valid full time car givers.
Violence against men simply isn’t considered with the same level of alarm as violence toward women. And the list goes on.
But we will not make much progress without creating spaces where common ground and mutual respect can grow. None of us can demand that everyone align themselves with our dogma. Therein lies madness.
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But we will not make much progress without creating spaces where common ground and mutual respect can grow. None of us can demand that everyone align themselves with our dogma. Therein lies madness. We have to learn to respect differences and form alliances based on diversity, not uniformity. Only then will common goals and solutions emerge that are not exclusionary. In this way. the solutions do not end up being as damaging as the injustices they seek to address.
Gender war extremists believe they and they alone own the conversational spaces about gender. Well, I’m here to say no, they do not. They seek to control and shut down conversations that do not align with their ideologies. They seek to take the complex web of dialogues right here on the Good Men Project and condemn the entire exercise as rape apology or feminist propaganda. It is a disgraceful exercise in binary partisanship, and a real dream come true for those who benefit from seeing men and women pitted against each other.
I’d like to quote a simple but elegant observation made by a remarkable Good Men Project author and commenter named Danny. In a recent article titled Wow! See What a Civil Intelligent Men’s Rights/Feminism Dialogue Looks Like!, Danny writes:
“When it comes to theories on gender I’m of the mind that there is a system in place. And this system exists not to hold any one above any one else except for itself. It will mow down anyone regardless of gender, race, financial status, etc…. The system keeps people in the places where they will be the most beneficial not to themselves but to the system. In practice this is quite harmful to damn near everyone. The only way to free everyone up is to undo this twisted system. The main road block is that in keeping people in their places (sorted by gender, race, etc…) we are pitted against each other.”
Its time that we all ask some simple questions. What will the next phase of our conversation about men and women look like? Will we continue to cede the gender discussion to binary voices who seek to shame and silence those of us who do not pass the litmus test of “ally?” Voices that intentionally or not, continue to pit men and women against each other? Or will we take the best and the brightest ideas and move forward in a way that empowers us all?
Its time to take back the gender dialogues. Its time for what comes next.
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More articles by Mark Greene
I’d be shocked if this makes it through ‘moderation’.
Here are NOW’s addresses National Organization for Women PO Box 1848 Merrifield, VA 22116-9899 Action Center Address: ( for internship information) National Organization for Women 1100 H Street NW, Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20005 Colleges and Universities That Sponsor Semester in Washington Programs A NOW Foundation Intern’s Perspective on Training and Empowering Young Feminists And you also have… • American Association for Women Radiologists AAWR • American Association of University Women • American Heritage Girls • American Woman Suffrage Association • Association of Women Professionals • Association for Women in Science (AWIS) • Big Sisters • Business and Professional Women… Read more »
Personally, I get tired of the two being compared. There is no comparison. People talk as though the so called “men’s movement” is all powerful. It’s not. It’s a smoke screen by feminists who glom onto the select little in the so called men’s movement and make it sound as though it’s some powerful entity. You mean it gets Woozled? “Woozles are usually not a simply a matter of authentic misreporting. They also reveal a desire to read into the data an a priori position that is really not there, what Bacon calls “idols of the theatre“. … All the… Read more »
Comparing David & the Goliath is an understatement, men’s issues are not even in the same universe,let alone league & it’s so obvious that I wonder what’s driving it all underneath.
I wonder what’s driving it all underneath.
My betting is good old fashioned Cult Mentalities, Milieu Control, dogma, protocols, innuendo, slang, magical thinking and even cultic Shibboleths. So easy to grasp from the Outside but not from the inside. Ask Jason Beghe.
In my opinion I find kinda sad that we need two gender movements, simply because some people are blinded by their own doctrine or ideology. Without mention the extremists. Having a theory, in this case a gender theory, helps but also limits. Like giving far to many blind spots or ultra focusing on in this case women issues. The worst thing is that the interested people are unable to see their own limitations or hypocrisy. And this happens when you super focus on only one side. This is slowly changing, maybe also thanks to the influence of the MRA’s, now… Read more »
Hey Mark, too much concern with men’s issues & rights is not what good men do, you should check your privilege.
“Hey Mark, too much concern with men’s issues & rights is not what good men do, you should check your privilege.”
Sarcasm or trolling? I’d say there is not enough concern of men’s issues
Sarcasm, I’m pretty sure, but not directed at Mark.
What I’d LOVE to see is a “Do Not Engage” policy with the “other side,” the Jezebel fem’ists and all those who come swinging swords whenever Tom Matlack opens his mouth. I get really, really sick and tired of seeing the cycle of gender war regurgitated whenever a controversy breaks out. First a controversial article goes up on this site. Then the backlash appears on other sites. Then someone here comes and curates all the backlash and responds to it. Then there are individual responses from individual authors replying to criticisms from other individual authors. And the Twitter wars, good… Read more »
@KKZ: I agree with you… But I think many people here, boys and girls, quite enjoy the armchair philosopher’s sport of arguing and debating…. It’s like sparring for the mind….
This is not exactly the U.N. …. So the presence of peace-loving diplomats is in quite sparse….although you must admit it’s kinda fun to hear people go at it to the nth degree… It has to make you wonder what is really driving it all underneath…..
Anyhoo….
This is why I don’t go on twitter. The shitstorms on youtube, GMP and the other blogs fill up my day quite enough.
I often feel the same way, there needs to be a combining of men’s and women’s rights in order for there to be further progress, however there are elements who would actively prevent such things due to their existing dogma. If you asked a feminist to define “patriarchy” they will readily acknowledge that it is a system, not a group of people, which hurts both men and women. On the other hand female feminists have a tendency to focus on issues that affect women, often to the exclusion of men’s issues. There are times when feminists dismiss men, or seek… Read more »
Mr feminist, just in case you are not aware, the (National organization of women), is totally against any changes that would make it easier for fathers to gain custody regardless of the situation in family law at the federal or state level period , if you truly didn’t know that, then there’s a lot of points in this gender politics you are not aware of.
“Due to the nature of patriarchy (for lack of a better word) men’s and women’s issues are often connected.” I think that overstated at best. In general, I certainly don’t see how men’s issues are necessarily connected to women’s issues in a significant way. Registration for the draft in the U. S. only applies to men. Women have no glass ceiling in the military, after all women can become president. Additionally, even if a glass ceiling does exist in the military, registration for the draft doesn’t create it, because women can join the military and serve in combat roles voluntarily.… Read more »
Hey, what is up with Tom?
Mark, please give us some info….
Yeah, I wonder if all his past articles will suddenly Vanish like Q.R.G.s’ did . You know, like they never happened, Just like in the good ol’ U.S.S.R.?
I can understand the desire for dialogue, but the reality is that the war is over and feminism has won. There is no point in being denying reality – the civilization that was once the West has come to an end, and feminism has entered the void with its own ideology. This is probably the last generation that will know the old world, so there will be still be frustration and conflict. But the next generations of people of both sexes will only know the matriarchy, so there will be no personal reference point. We are moving into an unprecedented… Read more »
“We are moving into an unprecedented era: there has never been a matriarchy before. Men will continue to fall further and further behind in education and work as women take over in virtually all fields. At the same time we will continue to see an increase in single people of both sexes as the birth rates decline. ” They can only fall so far, it’ll probably bottom out at a certain point but I think what will happen is people wake the fuck up and realize there is a massive issue and probably do the same thing they did for… Read more »
Yes, it is a bleak scenario. I don’t believe in getting upset about it because there really is nothing that can be done. This is not he first civilization that has collapsed. We happen to be living in the aftermath, which is strange and sad – but it is not unprecedented. We are trying to figure out the most basic building blocks of existence; What is man? What is woman? What is the meaning of existence? No society in history has fallen this far in that sense although we are much richer in material terms, even with recession. We have… Read more »
Feminism is a hot-house plant. We all know it – men and women – but we don’t have the words for it
Hot House Plant? – well it does depend on climate, but Monstera comes to mind. Not only is the latin alliterative, but the common name of Swiss Cheese Plant also has alliterative qualities – Many describe the taste of Swiss cheese as nutty, and it’s also full of holes. P^)
Wow, a rather bleak outlook from Tim. I’m not quite as pessimistic as that.. what I envisaged happening is this. The birth rate falls to below sustainable levels in the West, leading to local population decline. This, along with the aging population, will impact the welfare state HARD. Bolstered by the influx of immigrants from the 3rd world, I can see a move back to “traditional” values and gender roles. Or this: Feminism has been so successful because women are better at forming loose but effective collectives, whereas men tend more to be loners. UNTIL.. a strong, charismatic leader comes… Read more »
Perhaps – but civilizations do not usually come back that quickly or easily. I think many women are as dissatisfied with feminism as men are, but the ideology is so powerful that resistance is unimaginable for most people. It is just a stop along the way in any case. All of that talk about the mysterious evil patriarchy belongs to science fiction – no one in the future will believe that anyone really thought it was true. It has to collapse, but not before breaking down many people of both sexes. But spiritual, moral and cultural chaos is not followed… Read more »
Hi Mark, I’m actually quite enjoying this series on MRA/feminist dialog the GMP has started. Kudos. I’ll start by saying that, growing up in the “all men are pigs and deserve to die” era, I had a great deal antipathy towards feminism. Aligning myself with the MHRM (I don’t identify as an MRA), as well debating with feminists online, has actually served to dissipate a lot of that hate, not reinforce it. What we have to remember is there is not parity between feminism and MHRM. Feminism has decades of academic study behind it, powerful political blocs like NOW, and… Read more »
“Another problem I find when criticising some of the harmful dogmas of feminism, is the retort: “There are many facets / ideologies / strands to feminism, and not all feminists subscribe to the things you just outlined, end of debate”. Or “that was 2nd wave, 3rd wave is different”. These are the standard get-out-of-jail-free cards played to shut down dialog when something uncomfortable or inconveniently truthful is raised.” I generally say those things not to get out of “jail” but to attempt to get the person I’m talking to, to actually talk to ME and not someone else. “I always… Read more »
Wonderful. Thanks for this.
If you don’t want to be lumped in with FinalJusticeMovement or GirlWritesWhat for being a Men’s Rights advocate (and trust me you probably don’t) then you might not want to go down that road. I will not *own* everything that is done in the name of feminism. I will call it out when I see it, if I disagree, but I’m not going to take personal responsibility for it; as if I should be required to answer for it. I think this comes from a place where on our side of things we are already lumped in that way. We… Read more »
“Another problem I find when criticising some of the harmful dogmas of feminism, is the retort: “There are many facets / ideologies / strands to feminism, and not all feminists subscribe to the things you just outlined, end of debate”. Or “that was 2nd wave, 3rd wave is different”. These are the standard get-out-of-jail-free cards played to shut down dialog when something uncomfortable or inconveniently truthful is raised.” When I read this I’m just grateful that I deal in Equality and not some polarised views. It is terribly amusing though what happens if you ban the F word in dialogue… Read more »
Great article Mark. I don’t think we are ready for a generative conversation yet. A negotiation of difference can only happen between people with equal power, and we still have a way to go in deconstructing the feminist power base before that happens. However, keep calling for it, keep posing the possibility, keep outlining the middle path. We will get there within this generation, and we will need enlightened discourse and reconciliation when the fighting grinds to a halt. All social change starts with radical action. the trick will be in how it finishes. Will the revolution become an evolution… Read more »
Mark – I had to laugh at this: A wave of more collaborative feminists, men’s rights advocates and others who choose not to align themselves, are having remarkable, insightful and powerful conversations on the Good Men Project. It must be quite aggravating to militants to see the troops leaving the trenches and walking out across no man’s land to talk. You may not have noticed but the atrocious and frankly biased content that has been getting peddled round here for some time has only encouraged marching in one direction – and that is away. Faith is memes has been a… Read more »
Mark you seem to be unable to grasp subtext – I’m expressing my contempt for the people who have made this place both a laughing stock and also a place of silence. If I had had my way they would have been removed last year. There has been this myth peddled that this pace was about some kind of big conversation – but unfortunately the school mame did not understand the word conversation and also lacked the ability to listen to other sides. I find it funny when you say things such as “What do we want to focus on?”.… Read more »
There is all too often Devils hidden in the details – and beyond that I’m known to be demonic in the detail. You should familiarise yourself with The”Houghton Woozle Fallacy”. It’s amazing how Incidents of the Woozle Effect is confined to only one area of social interests and only one area of academic rigour. Funny all the claims about human trafficking – the claimed funding in Tax Dollars – and even the odd lack of people being found. They went looking in New York and cam back with a bag full of Woozles and Badly Cooked Data. U.S. Department of… Read more »
Well some grasp and others pass on by – and it’s an easy barometer to see those who asses input and those who just absorb. Woozles are like that – you either note they are ugly little critters or you find them warm fuzzy and comforting. Don’t Feed the Woozles is the meme for the next decade.
Mark, your article stands on its own – it’s cogent, persuasive and clear. Don’t let them drag you into the comments sections, it will only dilute what you are saying and allow it to be taken out of context. Let them have their reactions, defend their positions, argue their minutiae.
In fact there are some of us who are not familiar with the acronyms or even the arguments, and this is a place for discussion – even perhaps dissent at times. Articles are not intended to stand alone as statements – or there would be no comment section.
Disagreement can be difficult to handle and frustrating if you have a view you want to have accepted without question. But I assume this site is for conversation, not just statements, and disagreement goes with the territory.
State away Tim. Mark has had his say, this is the opportunity for you to have yours. My advice to Mark is not to get bogged down in the details and drawn into nitpicky conversations, to allow people to debate his words without feeling he has to clarify everything. the fact of the comments sections is that many people prefer to ‘object’ to small things instead of discussing the main points.
” In fact there are some of us who are not familiar with the acronyms ” Yes specially non english speakers, sometimes I simply give up following commentaries or blogs/topics with to many acronyms, how do you feel reading something full of DDT, ADHD, DDH, LDS, ADLS, HHC, AFK, BTK, BRB, BNB, WTF, SST, SSZ, LLT, VCC, WC, S.M.R.T.R, S.T.A.L.K.E.R, WW2OL, LBD, C.Y.B.R.N, DLS MRM, MRA, MHRA, MnM’s V.A.M.P, V.I.I.P and so on and you have no idea what they means. In the end you lose the interest in the topic or you get tired of googling and wonder why… Read more »
That’s a good point, Mr. SuperTypo,….
How close do people huddle under the acronym banner of their choice…? Are they just re- stating the dogma if their party… Or are they trying to be constructive and move the conversation forward? What actions are people here really agitating for? Or do the commenters here speak only to others in their same flock? How do we move forward? Or do men here want to turn time backward?
Okay… I’m ready… Don’t all start yelling at me at the same time….
How close do people huddle under the acronym banner of their choice…? Truthfully not very closely. Are they just re- stating the dogma if their party… Or are they trying to be constructive and move the conversation forward? Constructive. What actions are people here really agitating for? Or do the commenters here speak only to others in their same flock? Preaching the choir is useless. Part of the reason I stuck around here is because I thought it was a chance to get onto a higher platform and talk to lots of different people that don’t see eye to eye.… Read more »
@Danny: Just throwing the question out there…I would like to see the discussion here stay civil and respectful (like “Up With Chris Hayes” or Charlie Rose)…. I just wonder if members here are politically or socially active in their communities….where I am, it seems everyone is deeply involved on some board or community organization or fund-raising (or whatever)…..I wonder if people are arguing here just to argue and win the debate points and go home with the debate trophy….or are people really interested in forming bridges and reaching across the divide to form some kind of bond (no matter how… Read more »
oh wow! you mean your really going to ‘moderate ‘ my last comment? How fitting!
Leia, I’m not sure to take your question.. but to me, the online community *is* my community. I think I speak for most people here when I say I am interested in building bridges. However, I am only interested in feminists who want to build the bridge half way.. not in the Jezebel, Hanna Rosin and Jessica Valenti version of “building bridges” (read: capitulation).
@ Danny – you forgot to mention that stock phrases and ideas such as “Or do men here want to turn time backward?” come under the banner of “Thought-terminating cliché” – Loading the Language and supposedly suppressing the “Bourgeois Mentality” that runs riot in men – according to the theoretical or even heretical constructs of some. Of course the little stock phrase of “”do men want to turn time backward?“” has the double edge as it not only implies that men are not progressive or capable of progress, but also that men want to do something impossible which is travel… Read more »
Hi 5 Mark. I await the day both can put aside their differences and help each other out.
Thank you, Archy and Mark, for your measured words… I drive my 12 year old son to school everyday and I monitor his homework, his friends , and his LEGO Robotics activities on the weekends… We watch videos of current news items, about everything from Kim Jong Un to that hothead Rice, Jr., the Rutgers basketball coach to the race to publish the structure of DNA by Watson and Crick to even some appropriate topics from this very GMP site….he is still learning and his opinions are still forming and changing….and I encourage him to question things he is not… Read more »
Hi Leia, might I suggest to check out Arduino for your son if his interest is robotics. ht tp://adafruit.com/ has videos and I believe they should have starter kits that should be suitable for his age, or within a few years at least. Sounds like a budding young engineer in the making 😀
Thanks for your words 🙂
Frankly, I think it’s a little tough to have a non-binary, egalitarian discussion here on GMP when certain writers and editors (won’t mention their names. They know who they are) censor and admonish you for even criticizing feminism.
It’s sometimes hard to take the content here seriously when the sensibilities of feminists are considered more important than those of male commenters.
Really? That’s too bad. I would have thought a site like this would allow dissent from the left-wing party line. Apparently there is no place to complain either. Well, that’s the way the internet works. Every site is really a place for the founders to express their own views.
I dont see anybody telling you to forcefully agree….
Except that this site just fired its founder.
He didn’t get fired, he resigned?
You mean they gave him the gun with 1 round in it and told him to ‘do the honorable thing?’
Tom matlack didn’t check his privilege by being a so called good man according to the current narrative .
In other words, he was given the revolver with one round in it and told to do ‘the honorable thing’. God, it must of sucked for him to find his dream so shattered.
Wow! How’d that comment make it through ‘moderation’?
But the fact is, if there’s white male privilege in the world, then clearly, there must be white female privilege, too, right? I don’t know about anyone else but as far as I’m concerned the white female privilege doesn’t exist just because white male privilege exists. In fact I think that gets into the territory of “Y is happening because X is happening”, which denies the fact that while X and Y are related they are not related in that direct of a manner. But not to the exclusion of what men are saying about their own lives and their… Read more »
I’m not giving feminism full support until they rid themselves of the element that minimised my struggles and threw me out with the bathwater so to speak because of my “Priveledged” status as a “White, Heterosexual Male”. Until then, I refuse to step into the tent with that strain given leeway and all the comforts of home there.
Excellent point made by Danny and far better than the usual “Patriarchy is where men dominate and women are oppressed….oh yeah and the patriarchy can hurt men too.” GWW made another great point recently that calling this system the patriarchy gives off the wrong connotations whether intended or not. Feminists defend it by saying that the top echelon of society is male dominated so the word is justified. But they also allow that both genders benefit from, are hurt by, and enforce this system in a number of ways. I don’t think that patriarchy was created by mustache twirling men… Read more »
Egalitarian Equality means ensuring that all systemic biases and obstacles are overcome – even by affirmative action. When the affirmative action allows men to get a word in edgeways on men’s issues there may be progress. Being preached at and told who you are when it;’s wrong is affirms only the insult and disregard. Until voices on men and even men’s issues are treated with the relevant Egalitarian Equality then it will all just be a bad joke and a great many people just aint going to play lap dog, role over and have to do the cutsy thing for… Read more »
The day this site takes on Lindy West, Katie Baker and the stuff* they publish at Jezebel about men is the day I will take this site seriously. The day this site takes on specific cases of injustice against a man, and stays on the story until justice is done, the way Avfm has done in the Filler case in Maine, is the day I will take this site seriously. The day this site launches and maintains a campaign for intervention to help boys in school is the day I will take this site seriously. * An Irish term, as… Read more »
I would love to see that. West and Baker seem to think themselves beyond reproach, and I can only do so much in their comments as they all dogpile me and finally ban me for the umpteenth time.
The day this site takes on Lindy West, Katie Baker and the stuff* they publish at Jezebel about men is the day I will take this site seriously. This is one that bugs me on a regular. I recall a few weeks ago when West put out that “If we acknowledge that hate of men is a thing….” or whatever it was called I pretty saw the response go along party lines. Feminists tweeting and agreeing with it to no end and MRAs disagreeing with it to no end. (Same with Kate Harding’s “Fuck you, MRAs” piece.). I’m a regular… Read more »
Hey just a man,
Why aren’t you doing those things if they are so important to you? What are you doing to change the world apart from criticising the people who actually are doing something. Careful you don’t fall off that horse of yours, it sounds like it would be a very long way down.
Well hello there Adam.
What makes you think I haven’t tried to provide content on all of the above? I have.
But as you now, freedom of the press belongs to she who owns one.
And for the record, I spend a good deal of volunteer time in inner city schools working on literacy, girls as well as boys.
Ciao, JAM
JustAMan – If there was some basics got right first, it would be a start! You know – when it’s men’s health Month in November, in October… and even as far back as June you are looking at what is coming and how you will cover it and even lead the way. You ask why it’s necessary to even have such a Men’s Health Month – you might even cover some men’s health issues and join in with things like Growing Facial Hair and Movember. You have some months of content to deal with and organise…. but evidently some just… Read more »
The problem I have with patriarchy theory is that it is a theory based not on facts or science but on faith, it is based on a manipulation of definitions to suit its own purpose, think ‘rape culture’, or misogyny. Rape Culture is actually based on a study of the prison system where men are raped on a regular basis, it was co-opted by a certain ideology for their own purpose. Misogyny is another example, by definition it means ‘hatred of women’, it has been co-opted to pretty much mean what ever the writer wants it to mean. Actually feminism… Read more »
Whenever I see someone equate feminism with MRM/MHRM (or segments within them), it says to me he or she doesn’t know enough about one or both of them. It’s kind of like when people try to tell me the Black Panther Party and the Ku Klux Klan are both evil. I understand the view point: You might see a Black Panther speaking ill of white people (or simply speaking in what you perceive to be a threatening tone). Then you see a Klan member speaking ill of black people. Therefore they are both evil. They are equal but opposites in… Read more »
Samuel L Jackson used to be a Black Panther, IIRC. They’re cool in my book.
I am saying it’s wrong to say they (or even some factions within) are equal but opposite. The example isn’t to say that feminists are equivalent to the Klan or the Panther Party. I’m saying it is a mistake to say they both have done bad things or they both have radical factions… to the same degree. it suggests you haven’t studied one (or both) in enough detail. Let me use a different example: You have two people who are lawbreakers. Are both lawbreakers the same? You could ask for more information before deciding or you could just treat them… Read more »
Thanks for your comments Black Yoda. I’d like to clarify something. My intention here is to suggest the following. Not that feminism and MRA is equivalent. But that extremists = extremists wherever they might be located. Also, we should not allow ourselves to be drafted into any singular ideology, but instead to pick and choose what we value from a range of ideologies, including but not restricted to MRA and feminists ideas. The binary stuff is getting us no where and the binary comes from our choice to limit ourselves to that outmoded frame.
Should we affix labels or color coded tags to our posts so that it’s clear where one is on the rainbow color spectrum of views? Hot pink for Extreme Feminists ( who hate men) and blue for MRAs?
Sorry NO – The HOT Pink is Queer and not for feminist – they can appropriate what they hell they like (They always do) but the Hot Pink is not up for grabs. let them have green – I’m told it improves skin tones when you’re hot under the collar and the blood is rising ! P^) As for blue it’s so old fashioned in gender motifes – so I’d recommend a nice apricot for the MRAs and maybe a pale lilac for the MHRAs. They are the colours for the Progressive Man and so 2014 winter and summer collections.… Read more »
Lavender for Queers? Striped Green/Lavender for Extreme Feminist Queers?
What on Earth is an MHRA?
What on Earth is an MHRA?
Men’s Human Rights Advocate/Activist
MRA was too easily used as a Though-Terminating Cliche, and also fails to make those who just dis acknowledge that they are dealing with humans – when they attempt to Chant “M.R.A. Go Away” and have to put the H in it just F.T.S.U. – google that one cos the filters here will freak!
And if you think that F.T.S.U. is some new activist program – the Quakes have been it it for centuries – as have many others. Truth shines on dark issues and can’t be resisted.
The only MRA site that I see bashing GMP would be A Voice for Men, and that is mainly 2 editors there in particular. The Spearhead might, but I don’t really go there so I dunno. I think the problem that many MRA’s have is the constant bending over backwards to satisfy certain members of a certain ideology, when doing so only results in editors here catching heat anyway. Look how fast everyone turned on Tom Matlack for simply daring to talk about men’s issues on a site dedicated to helping men. Its nuts. Look at Marcotte and Schwyzer, who… Read more »
Post anything under the auspices of the GMP on the Men’s Rights Reddit and watch the nasty comments flow, even as the upvotes come in from the general men’s rights readership.
It would seem to me, then, that GMP has a range of supporters on /mr, as those up votes must come from somewhere. Like me, for example. I am a /mr regular and regularly up vote GMP threads. I am also aware of many GMP supporters on that sub as well, as well as those who defend Tom from the likes of Marcotte and her ilk.