.
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Do you get butterflies when you see your name on a simple work document? Jaye did, highlighting the importance and value of respecting people’s preferred names. On the flip side, Danny was told his preferred name would not be used at his graduation ceremony, diminishing his otherwise enjoyable high school experience.
In this episode, Phil and Alex listen to Jaye and Danny’s stories and discuss the importance of owning your name, how allies can demonstrate true support, and the need for corporations and other organizations to keep up as society evolves beyond the gender binary.
Transcript provided by YouTube:
[Music]
hey this is phil aka corrine and i’m
alex berg and you’re listening to the
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now on to today’s episode
in today’s episode we’re asking the
question what’s in a name more
specifically we are hearing stories from
two folks who both talk about their
gender identity and why their names are
so important to them
alright so my name is jay i’m born in
boulder city nevada as a
six seven-year-old i don’t really know
the specific age i was living in the
trailer park and it was just me and my
dad and i was playing with the
neighborhood boys we were coming up on
our rollerblades
down the street sitting on right in
front of the
uh driveway of my house and with the
three of us we’re gonna be playing
animorphs and that is where
we morph into an animal to fight crime
whatever that is and
we were going around jason said i’m a
tiger and then pete said i’m a lion and
i was going to say what i was and jason
stopped and they both were like you’re a
girl in that moment i
cowered away and i just said i’m not
half girl
and picked an animal
and tried to play along and just pushed
it away fast forward 10 years later i
have found a man in the moment and
we were looking to get married and we
were talking about what that would look
like and how that would be in our future
and it was a really amazing time
but then came the discussion around our
names and what we would be doing in a
marriage so we were hyphenating our
names and it ended up hyphenating his
last name and then my last name with
that name change was
a new beginning in this marriage years
later i started to kind of experiment
with different things that were more on
the feminine side versus the masculine
side i remember one night specifically i
was going to a comedy club with some of
my friends and in the bathroom i had
eyeliner that i had purchased myself and
had been in there for a couple weeks and
i started to put it on and it was
fantastic i loved how i looked with it i
knew my friends would love how i looked
in it
but then i came downstairs and there was
a change in behavior that
my husband was seeing and you know any
change is going to say what’s going on
what’s happening so there was a little
bit of tension in that aspect so that in
combination with you know some other
things you know we ended up getting
divorced so
two days after announcing the divorce i
was at home and
alone on my couch watching bruce paul’s
drag race and i had earlier bought a
pack of acrylic nails from the local
store jewel and i sat there and i was
putting them on i was gluing them on
learning how to do all that and just
exploring what it was like so when i
finally finished putting on the nails
and i had filed them into the shape that
i wanted i just kind of sat there and
just like kept looking at my hands and i
started taking selfies like looking just
with nails on because it felt empowering
it felt
great and i really enjoyed
that moment of being able to say like
this is what i love and i’m okay with
that and that kind of acceptance piece
of seeing it for myself was fantastic so
over the next year and a half i really
kind of dabbled along with what my
femininity looked like what my
masculinity looked like who i was
and
probably two months ago i reached out to
one of my best friends and i asked you
know can someone be transgender without
transitioning and she said of course
baby of course um and then she sent me
this amazing article that she was
working on um
but fast forward now to where i go to
the spiritual center and i had
officially come out and said you know to
my current social circles my name is jay
so i’m going into this new spiritual
center we’re sitting in a circle doing
an introduction of who we are and i
introduce myself as jay totally fine i’m
good with the introduction but what was
really impactful was when after a
gentleman came up to me and said hey jay
can i borrow a pen
and hearing him
just call me jay without any question
without any assumption or thinking it’s
different that i wasn’t jake or jacob
but just being able to identify myself
me makeup and all as jay that first time
was so rewarding and i didn’t have to do
anything different i just handed him a
pen it was no different and it was
fantastic i didn’t have to
have a conversation about a transition i
just got to introduce myself and be who
i was
at work i’m also in that middle of the
transition so i’m sitting in my
manager’s office and um i actually say
to her you know i’m changing my name so
can you refer to me as jay now j-a-e
um and i kind of explain it’s just a
neutral term when it comes to my name so
that’s what i’d like to be you know
known as and she was totally on board
she said absolutely that’s what i’ll
call you and move forward so
i’m sitting at my desk and i’m checking
an email that my manager sends out to
the whole leadership team and i know
it’s with a document that we’ve both
been working on together so under my
portion
when i look at the email she has that
actually spelled as j-a-e on there
and i’m overwhelmed i’m just like got
the butterflies i like see it i feel
validated i’m excited even though it was
a small document and a small moment that
may not matter to other people to me it
was
super empowering and super eventful and
i’m always going to remember that this i
love this story you see jay celebrating
being seen for who they are and i think
that’s what’s so important about names
that’s i think it’s about this is who i
see myself as and i need for you to see
me as i see myself
and i also think their story just so
clearly underscores
how affirming it can be just in such a
passing moment when someone and i think
for them it was especially this group of
people that they had more recently met
how affirming it is just when someone
gets it right
and
on the flip side of that is how awful it
is when someone gets it wrong as well
and just how
easy breezy it was for this new person
to get it right right wasn’t that hard
and so i thought that that they just
made that point just so nicely i also
really just loved hearing about jay’s
how they integrated femininity into
their self-expression as somebody who
loves a little nail polish and eyeliner
myself i i can really appreciate how
they were experimenting and having fun
with it and just seemed to have this
kind of joyful path to figuring out who
they were while you know also having the
tenuous experience of having to
deal with their partner who seemed a
little bit uncertain about it and then
also meeting new people and introducing
themselves you know i love that the part
of the story when jay talks about
speaking to a friend who
they ask this friend
you know can you be transgender without
transitioning and i was like yeah yes do
it you know just like do it it’s just
like you really
see them questioning this
and they and thankful you know
thankfully they had this great friend
who said absolutely you can do that you
can do whatever you want you know you
can take this as far as you want
this looks the way you want it to look
and it’s just i just think it’s so
important this is why we have you know
people look to chosen family because
they need this container of support
that well it’s it’s like it’s almost
like a little greenhouse in a way i want
to say it’s like it’s like having a
greenhouse with plants and just like the
perfect environment for someone to like
grow and flourish into who they are and
i’m just so grateful that
jay had this friend that really saw them
and was like it looks however you want
it to look and i
am here to support you in that yeah i
love that they even ask the question to
begin with because i think that as a
person in the media
when we
tell lgbtq stories oftentimes they have
a very specific linear narrative
and
for a long time the media was really i
think when it came to trans stories in
particular a lot of the examples people
would see they were very binary stories
and so
i think it’s really cool that jay had
that moment to be like wait a second
do i even have to be going from one
point to the other point to fall under
this umbrella or for it to feel like the
right identity for me so i just love
that level of inquisitiveness and also
like stopping to question
the conversation that’s out there you
know or the thing that’s been presented
to you i think that’s really cool yeah i
actually wish i could have been applying
the wall during that one evening while
they were watching rupaul’s drag race
and painting their nails and just seeing
the joy that came from like seeing these
beautifully painted nails it’s like can
you imagine that must have been such a
moment of like this is me like this
feels so right i think it’s just such a
beautiful thing those little moments
that you’re just like oh my god like i
am not having to live up to anyone
else’s expectation of who they think i
should be and i am literally just
allowing myself to be exactly what feels
right to me and i think it’s so
beautiful
speaking more about names i would love
to talk about danny’s story my name is
danny from bronx new york in 2012
i decided to begin my physical
transition from female to male i was
very scared i was in a very
conservative school
and
that was already very difficult uh so to
take this next step
um
i was asked
can’t you just wait till you graduate i
was graduating in six months
but
personally i didn’t feel like i could
wait at that time i felt very ready my
school just never really
took the steps to inform other people or
even talk to me about it like hey do you
need support in talking to your
professor so when i
was going to class a lot of people
you know were just misgendering me i
walked into my investment analysis class
and
i remember i got dressed up i was
presenting as male i felt really really
good i was passing from people that
really didn’t know me when i entered the
class the professor
greeted me and called me by my birth
name and i just remembered feeling kind
of defeated i felt
that in that moment i didn’t get the
right support my transition was never
communicated forward which kind of
showed me that the school
just didn’t really take it seriously or
they didn’t want to deal with it because
it was too difficult one thing i wanted
to do was change my name so when i
graduated my new name would be set
across the stage and all my friends were
excited for that and
i was advised not to change my name
because
it would affect my financial aid and i
actually have friends that have changed
their names and it didn’t while they
were in school and even after changing
my name i realized i’m like well it
wouldn’t affect it at all once i learned
about the process i was just told not to
do it because
i don’t know if they didn’t want to deal
with that
my senior year i had all i had already a
position with the target corporation and
i was starting that july and as soon as
i graduated and i received my diploma
where my degree was confirmed i changed
my name legally
and i was starting target
sometime mid-july and i remember
emailing the hr business partner at the
time who was aware of my transition and
told me that target could accommodate my
transition without a problem
she i told her hey i legally changed my
name and they rushed
to get all of my paperwork done so
my i had to refill w2s
w4s i had a folder with updated
documents they change my email address
they change so much paperwork in a
matter of days just so i can be
comfortable when i get to work so one
thing when i was at target
i was supposed to be at one store but it
was my intern store and i wanted a fresh
start
and the
hr team was trying to give me some time
to see if i felt comfortable so i
actually floated across different stores
for a while
i was in one store
for a little bit and the manager
actually
miswrote
my name on the schedule he put danielle
by mistake and i think it was just it
was an error but i remember feeling
really upset about it one of my
co-workers
pointed out the issue and he came up to
me the very next day just very
apologetic like we know we’re really
really sorry you know we don’t really
stand
for making you uncomfortable and we are
totally you know he was just he was very
apologetic and just kind of like you
know we this does not happen here and we
are you know we apologize that we that i
made you feel uncomfortable it was you
know it was an honest mistake in the
moment it didn’t feel great but it
actually you know afterwards i i
appreciated his accountability and just
you know apologizing and
um us being able to move forward i felt
like my experience at school was a bit
insulting like i had given so much to
school not only monetarily but just my
own energy like i really feel
like i put my heart in it and then
the last six months is what i mostly
remember when when you look at danny’s
story what you see is
somebody who went from a an environment
who’s just like could not be bothered
to an environment that’s like we want
you here we want your experience to be
wonderful and we want to respect and
support that and it’s just like the
stark difference between those two
environments can you i mean just can’t
even imagine like the school even lying
to him and saying you can’t get your
financial aid if you change your name
it’s like really yeah
well also like i think the the lie the
word lie here is really
operating because
this huge corporation
was able to get it together
and the school couldn’t and that’s a
that’s a choice there that’s that’s a
real choice to either make it work or
not make it work and then not to
implement those policies for your
students as well and so you know i think
that the
standard that the company that he worked
for had that should just be across the
board 100 everybody should be able to go
walk into any kind of company or
organization in that way and just you
know the contrast between the school and
his job it is a very very stark contrast
of from day one feeling like
you’re understood feeling like there’s
this element of dignity with the work
that you’re doing where again you know
you are
able to bring another part of yourself
i’m not really convinced that anyone
brings their full self to work ever but
you’re at least able to bring a very
important part of yourself and really
i i hope one day we’re talking about how
minimal it is to
recognize someone as their gender in the
workplace and recognize them with their
accurate name i feel like that is the
bare minimum right is just getting those
things right and there are so many other
things that we also need to be getting
right you know but i i recognize that
also in many places
we’re not there yet right we’re
definitely not and i think that what
we’ll see as time goes on is that that
is going to become a lot more standard
across the board just because at the
rate and the amount of people that are
coming out and adopting an identity that
is not part of the binary is is
unprecedented right and so we i think
that is going to play a role in in how
the workforce you know shows up and
you know companies corporations places
of employment have to be ready for that
because that is the reality we’re moving
towards and that’s it should be uplifted
it should be supported we have to change
the way things are i mean like paperwork
you think about applications when you go
to applications it’s still very you know
there’s still this weird like male
female it’s like we have to change
because society as a general is like
shifting and everyone’s got to stay on
top of that but one of the other things
that i i thought was the right move with
where he was working was it’s
institutionalized in a way and i think
it’s so important
for workplaces to create actual strong
policies around these things so that
everyone is treated equitably in terms
of getting the correct email address and
having the accurate gender marker and
having all of that stuff that i think
it’s really important for this stuff to
be codified yes so that it’s not you
know for example in the circumstance
when he was at school so it’s not like
you’re going to your student loan
officer and it’s like so subjective of
whatever somebody’s decision is right oh
you absolutely that’s a good point it’s
it’s a little startling to me to hear
that his school
like handled this in in this way it’s
just hard to hear that i mean i guess we
were talking about a different time but
it’s just like wow like is that like
it’s hard to sometimes understand that
that still is a thing that happens or
happened yeah it’s still it’s just hard
to
to wrap my brain around that sometimes
yeah i wanted to ask a school how much
do you love the gender binary that
you’re not going to let this kid
be called by their name on their
graduation day
how how
there is some just such a nefarious
element of how
dug in are you
on some of these retrograde ways of
thinking and being that on somebody’s
graduation day you know such an
important day to celebrate their
achievement you
don’t want to call them by the accurate
name right that is your problem that is
not danny’s definitely not danny’s
problem and by the way you said loud and
clear i don’t see you that’s what you
said basically if you did that you’re
saying i don’t see you and i don’t
acknowledge you in the way that you want
to be seen and i think that’s just
that’s like a travesty it’s like insane
it’s like that’s if that’s what he wants
to be called if that’s who he is that is
exactly what you should be calling him
it’s just like he shouldn’t have to
fight this battle it’s like it’s
ridiculous yeah i i just i mean it just
it blows my blood it makes me a little
crazy yeah no i know i i completely hear
that because the other thing too is that
it’s so i mean it was so upsetting for
danny i mean if you think about it it’s
like
i don’t know it seemed like almost in
his story that it just gave him so much
doubt around
school and like do you even want to do
school and you know like the barriers
the social barriers that it creates for
someone like why do you want to even be
in an environment that is going to be so
so upsetting for you to not recognize
you in that way i i would have i
understand why people are like i’ve had
it right so right i totally understand
you know and one quote from um that
danny says is being in a supportive
environment i was able to be myself i
was able to gain confidence and learn so
much about myself and i think what
you’re saying is right it’s like that is
not what he got when he was at school
right and that is what he’s experiencing
at his job at target so it’s like if you
uh give someone if you can support and
foster them in that way
what kind of you know evolution are we
going to see what again then danny goes
out in the world and becomes
like you said a model for someone else
right so he he becomes something that
somebody else looks at and goes oh my
god that’s i identify with that you know
and it’s just a beautiful thing because
for his school they don’t realize the
far-reaching effects of what they were
doing is you know they don’t they don’t
realize and thankfully his job you know
showed up and
made it right it’s just interesting to
me that we’re so we we live in a culture
that is so obsessed with the binary we
gender everything yes yeah everything
yeah absolutely everything so many
things so many things it’s just you know
another another
one of those reminders of the way that
these things operate this might seem
like a
i don’t know a silly question
but what about names like for our
listeners
why are names so important i feel like
this is probably very obvious for so
many people but maybe less obvious for
other people because
i feel like a lot of people
just throw names around if they get
somebody’s name wrong whether or not
it’s even from a gendered perspective
they kind of will blow it off or
whatever but like why
is it name what is in a name right well
this is this is the crux of what we’re
talking about here you know coming from
being someone who
is using a name that’s not my birth name
it’s it’s interesting because i
i think for me a lot of my friends were
ready to call me phil before i was ready
to call myself phil and i was like all
right guess i’m doing that and but it
felt right you know it’s not it’s not
like i’m just going to go with the crowd
it felt right but it it’s interesting to
to hear a name that you no longer use
and it’s almost like a shedding of a
skin in some ways it’s just like okay i
don’t it’s not like i hate this name
it’s not there’s nothing wrong with it
but it’s just it’s not me and so i think
i think the thing about a name is that
you know the thing about words in
general like in names it’s just there’s
a lot of weight that goes with it right
there’s a lot of meaning behind it and i
think the the act of choosing a name
that isn’t your name is saying i’m
growing and and evolving into something
else and i need you to keep up
with what i’m becoming and i need you to
understand that this is what it’s called
you know this is the name i want to use
and i think it’s so important like if
you mess up the name then keep going you
know i have friends who are just
learning to call me phil and they are
just like you know there’s a tip jar you
know every single time every single time
karine comes up i’m like here’s your tip
jar like gotta owe me some drinks
no but it’s like and i understand it’s
totally fine i’m not
in hate i don’t hate my birth name it’s
just not really who i am yeah right now
you know and i was thinking that i
really wanted to make sure that all of
my emails and like right now i’m still
my emails are some of them are using one
name someone i just want to get it all
right across the board but i think names
are important it’s a declaration right
because that’s what it made me think
about as you were saying that it’s kind
of your declaration your way of putting
your foot
on the earth and saying this is who i am
yeah
with your name yeah and it’s and there’s
something so beautiful about it it’s
it’s interesting because i think
for me i had i had a transition period
where it was like easier to say my own
name and and more felt more natural to
say that and then they got to a point
where i was like like now now i’m in a
place where i’m like when i have to say
it i’m like who is that
i’m like i’m not sure what that is i’m
like that it’s it’s just it’s weird yeah
so it’s just like it doesn’t it doesn’t
it’s a weird thing it’s a weird thing
it’s to change a name is a strange thing
yeah it is it’s a weird
thing that you that makes you think
you’re constantly thinking about
what you were and what you are i think
it really brings it keeps bringing that
it keeps that
top of mind you know one of the things
because my name is alex yeah you have a
cool name well people would always be
like i remember in particular
encountering i think generationally
older people would be like well isn’t
that a man’s name and it’s so funny to
me because it’s like the gendering of
names is oh yeah how did that even
happen you know it’s so
it’s just interesting to me that we’re
so we we live in a culture that is so
obsessed with the binary but we gender
everything yes yeah everything yeah
absolutely everything so many things so
many things it’s just you know another
another
one of those reminders of the way that
these things operate
i think in name is part of an identity
and for me
having a name that fits who i actually
am is extremely important so as a child
and you know being jake or jacob with my
dad and the kids in school that was fine
getting married and then having a
hyphenated last name i also felt in that
moment kind of empowered to have a
hyphenated last time and i’m married and
i’m doing what society says
and then transitioning now again into
you know the divorce and then my first
name changing to really focusing on my
identity as a gender non-binary person
and that
name and importance
you know i’ve spent a lot of time
deciding what that transition would look
like because i want to have a name that
is neutral yet still reflects who i am
and that’s you know it’s extremely
important for my identity my experience
at target just made like was just life
changing for me it was it made me so
i was able to
just live i you know i was in early
stages in my transition but
no one made me feel
like i was an outcast i was just
one you know one of the managers one of
the guys like hey you want to order
lunch today yeah sure it’s no big deal
being in a supportive environment i was
just able to be myself and
i gained
confidence and
i was just able to learn so much about
myself in different aspects of my
personal life i feel like being around
people and transitioning just made me
feel comfortable and that was able to
just be life-changing for me i feel like
maybe there are two things that two big
takeaways for us here and two
similarities between the stories which
is that
one it is extremely important to
recognize people as who they are i feel
like lots of cis people and non-lgbtq
people get very agitated when they’re
called the wrong name
and so how about you reciprocate that
behavior you know if if you are agitated
and upset when someone calls you the
wrong name
imagine what that is like for
a trans person yeah you know and because
i feel like a lot of times you encounter
attitudes where people are like well
it’s just too hard or i don’t understand
or but it’s like actually
if you’re agitated because somebody got
it wrong
imagine right imagine and and so and
repeatedly so imagine
and then the other thing is just to
remember how painful it is when a
person’s not called by their right name
you know i i also want to say for the
people that are trying right like i i
still have friends who are just like
they they want to default to my own name
you can see them trying right and i just
want to say it’s better to be trying
than not to be putting any effort in at
all yeah like if you’re trying right on
keep trying but like if you’re not
putting the effort in that’s a problem
yeah right but if but but someone can
understand if you’re trying i mean if
you know me for years and you’ve been
calling me one thing and
one day i switch it up i get it you need
a minute but keep trying yeah keep
working on it yeah i feel like i
definitely i’ve had friends who change
their names or decide to go use
different pronouns and it can take a
minute to get used to it and i’ve had
moments where i’ve slipped up and then i
just try to be like i’m sorry
repeat the right one you know yes like
that’s the best that’s the least you can
do and you know but make the effort make
the effort and and show the person
because to me the effort says i care
enough about you to try
right it’s that that also says i see you
and i’m trying and i know that i messed
up but i’m i’m willing to keep working
at this so i think that’s like you can’t
understand how important that is
[Music]
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the humanities and the federal american
rescue plan act thanks for listening
y’all
[Music]
you
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This post was previously published on YouTube.
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