When the intimacy dries up completely, it’s more about the relationship than it is about the animals in the relationship.
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One of my posts on The Good Men Project got a very interesting comment from an articulate and intelligent woman. She was clearly trying to figure out the parts of her relationship (and sexual) experience in marriage. And I hear this a lot, about the fundamental differences between men and women when it comes to sex and sexual appetites. But let’s clear a few misconceptions up. There has been a lot of new science recently that shows women are just as interested in sex, and historically have not always been as repressed as they are today. I’ll get to that in a second, but here is my response to Erin’s comment. You can go read her full comment here on the GMP, but I think you’ll get the idea from my response.
Hmmm… You make a few assumptions that I don’t necessarily agree with, Erin.
1. Sex is about not disappointing your partner. Hmmm. I don’t think that’s the point. Sex should be a mutually desired part of any relationship. I don’t agree with all this stuff about monogamy becoming boring over time. After 11 years of marriage I was never bored or uninspired by my then-wife. Ever.
2. Men are just men and need sex, women can either comply or risk losing their man. Um… Well, some of that is true. But sex can come in many forms. Intercourse is not always the best option for either partner. And it’s true the male of the species has a more dominate drive, fueled by higher levels of testosterone. But both partners should want to be intimate, at least occasionally. Your milage may vary.
3. Sex is not about maintaining monogamy. And men will not necessarily go wandering sexually if they are not getting sex in their marriage. Just as not all women grow bored with sex after being married for a while. It’s simply the average story. But we’re not average, are we?
4. Men deal with the exact same thing, from the other side of the bed. Being constantly rejected for intimacy is hard to handle. I got creative with my requests. I had unspoken attempts. I had happy and playful attempts. I had lustful and passionate pleas. When nothing (and I mean nothing) worked, we were dealing with something other than a difference in libido.
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I could tell when she was closed down and when we were close, and some well-thought-out touches and supportive words were often all it took to get her to open up and tell me what was bugging her.
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So let’s take as an assumption that men and women desire closeness and affection with the same intensity. And for men, often this affection is driven by the sexual drive inherent in our higher levels of testosterone and our natural hunter instinct. This is biological. BUT… That’s not the whole story, and it’s definitely not the answer for our differences in sexual desire, or desire for frequency of sex. It is part of the story, but in my opinion, not the most important part. Hear me out.
Sex is about hormones and release. Sure. I can agree with that, from an animal perspective. When we were beasts we conquered dinner on the hunt and we conquered women back at home, partially as reward for our prowess and success as a provider. Well, dear women and men, the modern era is much different. The concept of the hungry and sexually frustrated male is convenient, but not all that helpful in navigating or negotiating an equitable balance in touch and intimacy, both sexual and non-sexual.
If we put the imbalance idea on hold just for a second, let’s assume that both partners desire closeness and this involves cuddling, kissing, holding hands, and sexual interactions. If we start with the idea that both partners desire closeness, we can start solving for how to get that closeness, regardless of if it involves intercourse.
What started happening in my marriage to curb our intimacy (and this was just as much about casual touch and holding) was my then-wife began distancing herself physically and emotionally from me. As she got activated by something, anger, fear, frustration, overwhelm, exhaustion, she would withdraw rather than engage. Now, I do understand how any intimate interaction has the potential to become sexual, but that was not the issue. For me, I would’ve been happy with snuggling. But the threat of sex may have kept her from even asking for that simple nurturing.
When I get scared or sad I feel closer and more supported by a gentle touch. That connection, even a hand on my neck, shows me (in some animal – dog-like perhaps) that she is near, she cares, and she is available. Available not for sex but for hearing and supporting me whatever I’m going through.
Sex opens you up to another individual in a human way, that is very different from our Neanderthal ancestors. Some of us are still stuck in the model of that old hunter/conqueror vs breeding partner/reward dynamic.
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I can see how in many relationships that are based on much more base, caveman-like, relationships that even a hand on the neck might signal, “hey let’s have sex” but this wasn’t how our 9 – 10 years of closeness had developed. I was as fulfilled by a hug, sometimes, as a good roll under the sheets.
But something emotional was beginning to happen in my marriage that was more fundamental. It was not about sex. It was about being seen and being honest.
If you have sex in a full and open way, you begin to see deeply into the other person’s nature. (I’m not talking woo woo here.) You begin to feel more connected and in my case, you crave that connection, that transparency. I could tell when she was closed down and when we were close, and some well-thought-out touches and supportive words were often all it took to get her to open up and tell me what was bugging her. And most of the time this was not about sex. I was sincerely opening my heart to hers to hear what was hurting her or freaking her out. And more often than not, in the earlier stages of our marriage, it was about external things, or someone else who had done something hurtful.
But… As we began to experience more stress in our marriage, due in large part to the financial collapse of everyone’s economy including ours, she began to avoid being close. If she got scared she would often withdraw. When I had energy and passion for her I would frequently seek her out and dig in my heels until she let me in and told me what was going on. This was the equivalent of a housekeeper making sure nothing was getting swept under the rug. And this type of closeness rarely evolved into sex. It was not about sex, it was about closeness and intimacy.
After a while, however, as things continued to slide, she was harder to reach. And she began to express uncontrollable anger, that would pop out from time to time as a “fuck you.” It was shocking the first time she just blurted it out. The second and third time I had the impression she was bottling up so much anger and rage (in her mind it was 100% about me) that she could no longer contain it in her isolation. But she was so withdrawn that I couldn’t talk her down either.
In some ways maybe she was avoiding sex too. But I think the sex we had was so open and opening she was avoiding sex in order to not be revealed. Whatever she was afraid of or angry about was so frightening she didn’t want me to open her up. She didn’t want to tell me what was really going on. And in the end she really didn’t want to tell me she was consulting an attorney and trying to figure out her best options in asking for a divorce.
So sure, she was withdrawn and withholding of sex at this late stage. But it wasn’t about sex. It was about the closeness that often opened us both up to each other’s deep feelings. She didn’t want to share her hurt and pain. She didn’t want to tell me she was actually considering divorce and not just randomly shouting curses as me. She was so far gone she didn’t want me to see into her at all.
Sex opens you up to another individual in a human way, that is very different from our Neanderthal ancestors. Some of us are still stuck in the model of that old hunter/conqueror vs breeding partner/reward dynamic. That no longer holds true, if you are consciously coupling and relating with all of your intelligence. I do know that some relationships are not based on honesty and sharing, and I’ve seen examples of the caveman mentality too often to count. But that’s not us. That’s no you. That should not be your default understanding of the man vs. woman equation.
And it’s not the way it should be with sex. Sure we men want sex more often. And it is the woman who is the gatekeeper to her own body and the gift of that intimacy. When the intimacy dries up completely, it’s more about the relationship than it is about the animals in the relationship.
Sincerely,
The Off Parent
@theoffparent
and the story continues…
We welcome your comments and ideas. See the rest of The Off Parent on GMP.
Please visit The Off Parent site for more of this man’s four-year rant and recovery from divorce.
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reference: Good Sex: Or Five Ways to Avoid Bad Sex – The Good Men Project
related posts:
- 5 Wonderful and Unexpected Benefits of Being a Serial Monogamist
- Good Sex; Or Five Ways to Avoid Bad Sex
- 7 Signs of a Healthy Post-Divorce Relationship
image: fk, marina caprara, creative commons usage
Frank: You seem pretty confused about what I was writing about. If you have a metrosexual post to write, I’d say do it. But here’s my statement that I open the post with. “So let’s take as an assumption that men and women desire closeness and affection with the same intensity. And for men, often this affection is driven by the sexual drive inherent in our higher levels of testosterone and our natural hunter instinct. This is biological. BUT… That’s not the whole story, and it’s definitely not the answer for our differences in sexual desire, or desire for frequency… Read more »
Off Parent, it’s unfortunate your marriage fell apart due to your wife’s problems with intimacy. Women can fear emotional/sexual intimacy just as much as men (stereotypically) do. It sounds like she had “issues” as they say. Very hard to deal with if she doesn’t want to address it herself. Maybe it was your very need for a close emotional connection in sex that was scaring her for some reason. I had these kinds of issues in my younger years. I had a very healthy sex drive, but felt emotionally smothered sometimes by the intense emotional and physical desires of my… Read more »
Jen, you’re right on. Thanks.
Yes, my ex still has a lot of growing to do, and that’s not for me to concern myself with or manage. I couldn’t manage it when we were married, though I tried in every way me or my therapist could think of. I do believe individuals have to go through their own healing and self-discovery around sex and healthy relationships.
And after two divorces I think I’m better prepared to take it slow, and build something that fits better on both an emotional and sexual level.
Bill, Offparent is a heterosexual male talking about his heterosexual marriage experiences. Why should he not be heteronormative when the majority of his audience is more than likely going to be heterosexual. Why does he has to pander every single sexual persuasion and lifestyle possible on earth. There is a reason that all the sexual lifestyles you mentioned are called sub-cultures because only extreme minority of people are in them in a country of couple hundred million people or in a world of billions of people. Offparent’s marriage and divorce experiences relate vast majority of people in USA and the… Read more »
Because it’s not normal. It appears normal because people like Off Parent sweep it under the rug, but I’ve met more than a few women over the years that proved that women do have a substantial sex drive.
The main difference is that women aren’t typically as comfortable acknowledging it as men are. And in most cases men aren’t as interested in sex as reported in the media. Some men really do need it every night and think about it constantly, but those men are addicts.
Sorry you don’t think I “got you.”
This is my summary sentence that says what I was trying to articulate.
“And it’s not the way it should be with sex. Sure we men want sex more often. And it is the woman who is the gatekeeper to her own body and the gift of that intimacy. When the intimacy dries up completely, it’s more about the relationship than it is about the animals in the relationship.”
I don’t think women as a group want sex less than men as a group do. There are high demand and low demand people and the low demand people are the gatekeeper to sex. IMHO in an ideal world people would involve themselves with people that had a similar sex drive. Unfortunately, sex drive is really only one aspect that one ought to be considering. If a high demand person marries a low demand person, there are ways of handling that from masturbation to an open marriage. I’ve personally met quite a few high demand women over the years and… Read more »
Re: your second last paragragh. Here you nearly touch on a often over looked facet of sex. A view that men are actors and that women are acted upon. Not only does it shed men in a bad light but it strips women of their own sexuality – ie they wouldn’t do it if it were not for men. Erin has problems around her own sexual value – or a percived lack of it. Her fears of men revolve around men seeking other forms of pleasure – porn. This is part of the problem with men, women and sex. Society… Read more »
Josh, lets deal first with your first comment. In porn, women are acted upon. In porn, it’s all about men’s ultimately pleasure and what is being done to the woman’s body for the man’s ultimately pleasure. I’m going to keep saying this until you guys get it. Now if you want to advocate for sexual material that is about men and women truly collaborating together, great. But as porn stands today, it’s largely dominated by what male heterosexual men want women’s sexuality to be, not what women’s sexuality is. Porn is actually what is stripping women of their own sexuality… Read more »
OffParent – I think you’re actually wrong about this. The only reason women in our society APPEAR to want sex less often than men is because of how men and women are socialized. Go hang out in sub-cultures that have either never absorbed that socialization or have deliberately thrown it off, and you find women want sex as much and as often as men do – and often more, because they don’t have issues with refractory periods after orgasming. But again, you have to step outside the mainstream. Hang out with the queer folks, or the BDSM folks, or the… Read more »
Thanks Bill.
You may have missed my opening sentence: “So let’s take as an assumption that men and women desire closeness and affection with the same intensity.”
I thought I had referenced the book with the study data. KISS AND TELL http://amzn.to/1jZcCot
What I am trying to express in this post is when sex goes south the underlying cause is probably emotional rather than sexual. And I do agree about libidinal matches. It was difficult when her lib dropped back to it’s normal range between 1 and 2.
Bill, off-stated problems? Not too supportive of you. Maybe you could read Off Parent’s previous posting to see what lead to the discussion. Off Parent made this comment in his original post: ““If I can rope my partner into thinking it’s part of my maleness and she should help, well, that’s a bit manipulative .” What I read from this is that sometimes men use their “maleness” to manipulate women into giving things sexually. Either giving sex or giving certain sexual acts. Seriously, I’ve had this experience myself. I actually think this is a big issue with men. Sometimes, certainly… Read more »
Just to clarify, I have never been married Off Parent. I also don’t feel like you really understood what I was saying. I was not trying to figure out parts of my relationship. I was explaining to you what some of my relationship experiences where. I almost feel like you and I are having two different conversations here. Sometimes sex was a “duty”. Sometimes as a woman, you live in fear that if you don’t have sex with him, he will look for outside sources to entertain himself with. (Some women are okay with that, I am not.) Sometimes men… Read more »
So you fear if you fail to meet his intimacy needs he’ll go elsewhere? right? Yet by overstretching your own sexual bounds you create internal resentments about him and the relationship? Why not be upfront about your lower libido instead of misrepresenting it……he might leave…..he might sublimate some of his libido with masturbation and or porn…in the best of all possible worlds you might both come to a workable compromise that allows for deep long lasting commitments.
Hi Trey1963 May I ask how you define a low ,a medium and a high libido? Our desires ebbs and flows, For many of us we turn yourself on with some persons but not with another. Other factors influence us as well, It is not true that libido is an constant thing. So my so called libido is high with mr A and low with mr B. I suspect it is like this also for men, since many men seems to put such emphasis on good looks in a woman I guess it is because when he is with a… Read more »
Silke, great questions! What is a low, medium or high libido? If a man needs to use other women for stimulation, if the women need to be and endless line of younger, more attractive, and engaging in harder sexual acts, is his libido that strong after all? This might be a whole other conversation. Do we self titillate ourselves even when we aren’t in the mood just for the sake of sex, boredom or through needing to define ourselves through sex or for validation? With the hyper sexual world we live in, i suspect people are using sex as more… Read more »
There are statistical average sex drives of a population but they don’t mean all that much. Low libido and high libido should really just be about the couple. If 2 people want it twice a week and they get married, great. If 2 people want it once a month, great. If one wants it 5x a week, the other 3x, then probably still be ok although the higher libido one may go without whilst the lower libido one gets all that they want and possibly extra. If the mismatch is say 5x a week and a once a month person… Read more »
I suppose you would have to speak truthfully with your partner……is that a deal breaker? You should know yourself well enough to be able to be truthful about your sexual desire for him…..If you’re seeing sex as a duty then he’s not right for you and your the wrong person for him. Honesty makes all this easier.