Between Mark Sherman and Lisa Levey, 10 of the people they love the most are boys and men. The issues of men and boys is critically important to them. They are starting a conversation to try to bridge the gender gap.
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PUBLISHER’S NOTE: We hope for this to be the first in a series of conversations about gender and the future of boys.
Mark Sherman, PhD, is an emeritus professor of psychology at SUNY, New Paltz, where his main interest has long been gender issues. He has published, taught, read, and researched in this area for more than 35 years. For the last two decades, his focus has been the gender gap in young people, where boys and young men are lagging well behind their sisters from kindergarten through graduate school. He freely admits that a major impetus for his concern is the fact that he has three sons and four grandsons.
Lisa Levey is a veteran consultant, having worked for nearly two decades with many of the most admired companies in the world to assist them in the creation of work environments where women (and men) can thrive. In 2012 Lisa published The Libra Solution: Shedding Excess and Redefining Success at Work and at Home profiling a highly-shared and gender-flexible career and family management model for dual career couples. Lisa and her husband Bryan have been featured in Fast Company magazine and on ABC News with Charlie Gibson in stories about this partnership approach to parenting and professional work.
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Mark: Lisa, I am so glad you’re willing to have this conversation with me about gender issues, with special attention to boys and young men. In the Good Men Project conference calls, you immediately struck me as someone who really wanted to understand men, and I think the future of American boys depends on women like you—feminists with sons. That’s because for years now, in this country, when you talk about the left and you talk about gender, you are inevitably talking about women and girls. Boys and men are not even part of the discussion. I’m not so worried about men; I guess you could say that they still hold a great deal of power. But if you look at Americans below the age of, say, 22, it’s an entirely different story. And for school-age boys and girls, there is no comparison these days.
Lisa: Mark, I am very excited that you reached out to me about having this “gender conversation.” You are correct that as a feminist, I care deeply about supporting women and girls—in fact my professional work over many years has been consulting with large corporations to support women in business. BUT I also care deeply about boys and men and the struggles they face. In my research and consulting, I’ve seen up close that many men feel caught between a work world that demands so much and a desire to be more involved with their kids. I’ve seen the pressure many men feel to be the breadwinner and provide their wives the choice about working while they feel they have no choice.
But when was the last time you heard a liberal talk about the “boy problem”? And I say this as a liberal!
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But let me get back to the boy problem you described as a starting point for our conversation. I am very grateful that my sons—now ages 13 and 16—are thriving, but there have certainly been bumps along the way. My older son was a particularly wiggly kid. He couldn’t sit still for five minutes. He didn’t have ADHD; he was just a typical healthy active little boy. Luckily he attended a Waldorf School during his elementary years where his boundless energy was not a bad thing. His art teacher taught the children to knit—good for hand-eye coordination—and she described my son’s approach as “extreme knitting,” wiggling this way and that while keeping his hands moving. My younger son attended our public school and as a second or third grader, he would get very stressed about those open-ended writing assignments. He would stare in dismay at the blank page and say, “I don’t know what I’m supposed to write.”
Mark: But when was the last time you heard a liberal talk about the “boy problem”? And I say this as a liberal! I’m a liberal because we’re the ones who change things, who try to make things fair. And one of the things that has to change today is how boys are doing, which is, I believe, at least partly a result of the relative (to girls) lack of attention they have gotten for at least the last 20 years.
I’ll admit I’m obsessed by this issue, and I’ll certainly acknowledge that a major motivator for my obsession is that I have three sons and four grandsons. I strongly believe that it is parents and grandparents like us—who have sons and grandsons—who have to be the major force on behalf of our children and grandchildren.
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Lisa: I have learned so much about gender issues through raising my sons (in close partnership with my husband). Having witnessed my sons in various school systems through the years; I do believe that early public education is better suited for girls than boys. So much of public education today is focused on early intellectual development. The problem is our current approach—forcing heavy literacy even at the pre-K stage—does not reflect what we know about child development. Little kids need to move, especially little boys. That is how they learn.
Mark: Whatever it is, the data overwhelmingly shows that it is boys more than girls who are having problems in school today. And outside of schools boys, on the whole, are not doing well either. There’s plenty of data on this, some of which you may be well aware of. But to me the most important thing is that, to this very day, boys have not had a strong lobby, while girls have. I hope you are willing unreservedly to address this, and to encourage other mothers of sons to do the same. Today, women continue to get strong support from other women (e.g., NOW), and much of this carries over to support for girls. But men are seen as not needing any special attention and, sadly, this carries over to boys.
I don’t think anyone has ever presented the situation better than journalist Michelle Conlin did in a 2003 Business Week cover story titled “The New Gender Gap.” Conlin wrote, “It may still be a man’s world. But it is no longer, in any ways, a boy’s.” And that was more than seven years before Hanna Rosin, a mother of two boys (as well as a daughter)—wrote an article in The Atlantic titled “The End of Men,” which later became a book, with the subtitle “And the Rise of Women”. Are those of us with sons and grandsons supposed to look upon this with equanimity?
Lisa: I don’t believe we should look upon the decline of boys—or the end of men—as a good thing. What I see is that so much of the coverage surrounding gender issues pits women against men. It keeps us mired in conflict, defending our side, and distracts us rather than helping us to work together. That’s not my approach. I deeply believe we are far stronger as partners than as adversaries.
You said earlier that liberals don’t talk about the “boy problem”. Have you had a particular experience that makes you think that?
Mark: One day last year, at a local coffee shop, I was reading Rosin’s book “The End of Men”, and happened to run into an old friend, an ardent feminist, who was talking to another woman. She asked what I was reading, and I told her. I added, “This book makes me very worried for boys.”
She responded, with an acerbic laugh, “Well, when half of Congress is female, then I’ll worry about boys.” She is someone I’ve known for more than 30 years, and I like her very much.
She has been involved in women’s issues for her whole adult life. So I do understand her passion—even though it distresses me that she seems so unsympathetic to boys. On top of this, she has one child, a daughter. So I don’t expect her to necessarily fight for boys and their needs. But, Lisa, I hope you and every other mother of boys will do so. After all, who do we love and care about more than our children and grandchildren?
The goal is to help dismantle “the shackles of gender”—all those assumptions and beliefs about gender roles that keep us separate and limit us all.
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Lisa: Surely having sons has made me far more attuned to gender issues but, to my mind, it’s not just about my sons. It’s about my husband, my brothers, my nephews, my friends—many males that I care about in my life. I suspect the seeming lack of concern for boys that you witnessed with your friend in the coffee shop was a case of her touching one part of the elephant. For someone like myself working to create greater gender equality in the leadership of our organizations, I’m constantly faced with the stark statistics. Even though women have made great strides professionally, the face of top leadership remains overwhelmingly male in every profession and industry that you look at—healthcare, technology, consumer products, law, medicine, academia. I know because I’ve consulted to all of them and seen the numbers. Progress has been glacial for women in leadership over the last 15 plus years.
I suspect many feminists are unaware of the challenges that boys today are facing. And it can be difficult to fully sympathize with the struggles that boys and young men encounter when women are still fighting so mightily for a place at the table. Heck there isn’t even a law to ensure that women get equal pay for equal work. It seems so basic. I wonder if men realize that it is their wives and sisters and daughters that suffer the loss.
You’ve said, “I think the future of American boys depends on women like you – feminists with sons.” My goal both in the work I do professionally—and in raising my sons—is to help dismantle “the shackles of gender”—all those assumptions and beliefs about gender roles that I believe keep us separate and limit us all.
I’m very excited to be starting this conversation about gender issues. I hope it will provide a provocative forum for discussing gender in a new way, one deeply committed to gender equality and to deepening our shared understanding. My goal is to find common ground and for women and men to work together to create the world we want for ourselves, our children and our neighbors.
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Photo: “Happiness of Summer Boys” SAM Nasim / flickr creative commons license
Fascinating study released today on what women think of other women, the stereotype, pink, wine, clothes, beauty etc, and how they actually think collectively. This is too important a study to let go by. The implications for both men and women are too great to ignore. Basically, the study looked at what women think about what other women are like, versus what they as individuals are really like. For example, the stereotype is that women like pink, drink wine, choose clothes to flatter and impress others. Fact is individually they like hard liquor, disike pink overother colors, and buy clothes… Read more »
Many thanks for starting this conversation. I only wish your article was “parked” on the home page to allow for a bigger conversation with more people weighing in. The nature of my work (as a parenting and family coach specializing in social-emotional literacy and working primarily with parents of boys) and the fact I’m the father of two boys have given me a perspective into the boy issue that I may have missed otherwise. I could write for days and days, but will focus on two points instead. The larger population has not realized there is a boy crisis. The… Read more »
Kristian, thank you so much for your comment! You say you could “write for days and days” on this topic; I have written about it for more than 20 years. And I couldn’t agree with you more that “the larger population has not realized there is a boy crisis.” And I also agree with your observation that “most parents…think it’s only their issue without realizing there is a larger phenomenon at play.” Though I’m not a therapist or counselor, I always ask people about how their children are doing, and time after time I hear about sons who are struggling.… Read more »
Mark and Lisa I have two sons and a daughter and am a singledad. Sons can thrive but only with intervention and strong support from parents.In an effort to make schools safe for girls, schools often make the boys feel like enemies of the state.Feminists said this wouldn’t happen.One day my son came home frustrated because he had gotten in trouble for ” being a boy.”The boys were ordered to play basketball with the girls because some girls complained that only boys were on teams together.The boys were told to play with the girls but they had to play differently,… Read more »
We at the Gurian Institute (www.gurianinstitute.com) are also interested in promoting the best possible learning environments for both boys and girls by working with teachers so that they better understand how brain physiology and chemistry affect student learning. But we are also trying to start conversations at the local level about how to help boys thrive. It does take a village to be successful at this endeavor. Using the work of Michael Gurian, the GI has a template to get the discussion started in any community by offering Helping Boys Thrive one-day Summit. For more details, go to http://www.helpingboysthrive.org. Dakota… Read more »
My son has ADD, the inattentive type, and receives support services in school…but he still needs a lot of supervision to keep him on task and on deadline….like a typical Asian mom, I have enrolled him in after school tutoring twice a week where he works one on one with middle school teachers….which has been fantastic for his development, confidence, and grades….my son is very different from me at the same age…I could just sit there and work steady for hours straight….but I guess he may turn out like his uncles, who were not as academically stellar as I was… Read more »
Is the OP in the us
“Heck there isn’t even a law to ensure that women get equal pay for equal work. It seems so basic. I wonder if men realize that it is their wives and sisters and daughters that suffer the loss.”
Google “Equal Pay Act of 1963”
“It may still be a man’s world. But it is no longer, in any ways, a boy’s.” Very accurate indeed. One of the worst responses I hear to the crisis among boys is to bring up the status of men who are several decades older than today’s boys (aka tomorrow’s men) and quite literally grew up in a different era. Using the success of one subset of males as “proof” that all males are doing fine is a very dangerous generalization. She responded, with an acerbic laugh, “Well, when half of Congress is female, then I’ll worry about boys.” She… Read more »
@Danny Well Danny actually the Civil Rights movement-a black movement- has done more to help others,besides itself, than any other movement in American history…and it ain’t even close.Feminists depend on CR legislation for the legal legitimacy it needs.So when white feminists claim to have difficulty choosing where to put their energies,I don’t feel bad about ignoring their issues.Hell,white feminists can’t even see white men and boys,much less people of color
I think many of the assumptions in this discussion are inaccurate. The left and liberalism are not just about feminism. To the extent that they’ve become so, this indicates an inappropriate move away from the political-economic (which I believe is more basic – following Marx) toward culture, which I believe follows along later. It indicates a weakness of the left, not a success. I agree that an equitable society does depend on equitable treatment of all classes (except perhaps for the one percent,) races, and genders. But biology has taught us, I think, that we can’t will (or condition) away… Read more »
“Well, when half of Congress is female, then I’ll worry about boys.” Yeah, but as this article points out despite adult men being in charge of the government, young boys are being let down by the structure of education. This isn’t just in the US, I’m from Australia we have the same pattern of boys “underachieving” and girls generally doing well or being above average. I wonder to what extent adult men in government or other leadership roles is a result of the cultural assumption that it’s women’s role to worry about kids- girls & boys. Of course the huge… Read more »
Erin: I believe listening to one another, and validating the struggles both genders encounter, is a powerful first step. I’ve come to understand that both females and males have suffered injustices because of their gender. In addition to boys, how many fathers faced divorce courts stacked against them where they were unfairly seperated from their children? How many men feel they get mixed messages from their wives about his role at home – “I want you to be a full partner as a parent and in the care of the house but on my terms.” I see that we don’t… Read more »
Well Lisa, I totally agree with you. And you have a wonderful skill and obviously a fully demensional knowledge of articulating clearly the struggles both men and women encounter.
Well done Lisa and Mark. This really resonated with me: “I suspect many feminists are unaware of the challenges that boys today are facing. And it can be difficult to fully sympathize with the struggles that boys and young men encounter when women are still fighting so mightily for a place at the table. Heck there isn’t even a law to ensure that women get equal pay for equal work. It seems so basic. I wonder if men realize that it is their wives and sisters and daughters that suffer the loss.” I think that’s the crux of the problem… Read more »
And even though women have made gains, we’re still up against alot ourselves. Sometimes it seems like men expect women to forgo what they’ve been fighting for all these years because of some positive gains women have made and now focus primarily on men. It’s hard to do that when you still feel like you haven’t really achieved equality yet. With all due respect Erin as a guy I feel something similar. One of the most common responses to bring up equality for men is the condescending accusation that we really don’t want equality or that we already have the… Read more »
You touched on something really good. I couldn’t agree more with your comments about , “what prevents us from giving credence to each other is the idea that there is only so much fairness to go around.” How do you ingrain a different approach when your first response is to protect your own identity and hardships first? It’s really hard to do that. I think it’s true that sometimes, women believe men don’t really want equality and that there is still a desire to subjugate women. There is evidence of this in a lot of pop culture that re-enforce this… Read more »
I don’t know if the intention is to be condescending toward men for holding these beliefs, however. Assuming that women are aiming to be condescending implies that women are only having these thoughts or beliefs to harm men. When it’s more realistically coming from a place of their own experienced handicaps and frustrations. And there also could be something more psychology deep going on if you pick up condescension from women. One’s own experiences might be the source of the condescension and I’ll even agree that its not always the case, but sometimes that’s about all there is to it.… Read more »
The first book I read when I adopted my son was “Real Boys : Rescuing Our Sons from the Myths of Boyhood” and it proved invaluable. Everything this article brings up – that our schools are not designed to meet the challenge of a boy’s education to everyone rooting for the girls to win is what I struggle against with my son. My son, like Lisa’s, has started his education at Waldorf and though I would like him to continue in that school it’s lack of diversity has given me pause considering I am a white parent with an African… Read more »
Rachel: Thank you for sharing a bit of your story. Reading about things people say to you in reference to your son – “You’re spoiling him into a mama’s boy” etc.” make me very sad and angry! I deeply believe that empathy and kindness are the ways to heal so many of our collective wounds, not further alienation. I read some powerful research on gender roles and middle school children while writing my book. The resarechers found that while gender has broadened in many positive ways for girls – it is now a good things for girls to be smart… Read more »
I wish there was one word for “boys and young men” and another for “girls and young women,” because it is these young people – from pre-school through, say, age 25 or so – that I am most concerned about. I absolutely acknowledge the fact that women have suffered discrimination that men have not, and may still encounter this in the workplace. But when it comes to the younger generation, and for now let’s just call them boys and girls, there is a new problem today. Boys are, in so many ways, getting the short end of the stick. My… Read more »