If you can’t listen to women with a higher consciousness, what you offer society as a whole is also limited, says Atalwin Pilon.
Cali, Valle del Cauca, Colombia.
A little while ago I wrote a post about the Psycho Bitch From Hell phenomenon. It was re-posted, with my permission, on The Good Men Project under a slightly different name and it stirred up a lot of conversation. Where I called my post About Psycho Bitches from Hell they changed it into In Defense of Psycho Bitches From Hell. I agree the second title is catchier, but it caused confusion, too.
For a moment it felt exciting. My post was causing a storm of comments! The notifications were flooding my iPhone. This had never happened on my own website. I rushed back to my Colombian apartment to get my laptop, make myself comfortable and enjoy the wisdom that would surely come. But after reading a few comments I felt disappointed. To me it seemed that everybody was missing the point I was trying to make and quite a few got all worked up about things that I never said. I lost interest quickly, felt no incentive to participate in the discussion.
The phenomenon that I called the Psycho Bitch From Hell is in no way something that is clearly defined. Generally it is about a hot cool chick who turns out to have an unexpected dark side. She comes up in conversations of guys when they are exchanging dating experiences, she lives in anecdotes, she meets contempt and ridiculisation because of her perceived craziness. When a guy makes his buddies laugh because he has a psycho-bitch story, it doesn’t mean that he is telling the truth or that he is including her perspective. Perhaps she really overreacted and perhaps he was a completely insensitive jerk and unaware of the hurtful things that came out of his mouth before she started crying ‘for no reason’.
I spent the whole year of 2012 traveling and giving workshops on warriorship, leadership, courage, integrity, mindfulness and personal growth. I lived (for 1 or 2 months) and worked in Israel, Beirut (Lebanon), Baghdad (Iraq), India, Hong Kong, Thailand, Australia, the US and, currently, in Colombia. Among many things I noticed on my journey was that in guy-talk all over the planet the psycho bitch from hell pops up, that I am treated differently because I am a tall, muscular, blue eyed and—most importantly—white man (all highly valued traits in male dominant cultures) and that women are treated poorly and unjust in most cultures that I have seen. I realized that I am blessed to be born on the Western European side of the world. I also realized that my female friends have easier lives then their Indian, Arab or Chinese counterparts, even if they are going through horrible divorces or devastating diseases (which has happened and is happening). The reason is—I think—that in the western world we at least have agreed on the fact that a woman is a human being and that she therefore has equal human rights.
In my post I stated that I felt that it is hard being a woman, perhaps even harder than being a man. This statement caused all kinds of turmoil, many male commenters felt the need to illustrate how hard and unfair it was to be a guy in this day and age. I agree that an American man who has to pay a suffocating amount of alimony to his ex-wife and can’t see his kids suffers terribly from feelings of injustice but somehow it seems preferable over being beaten, locked up, denied education and raped. But if I am 100% right is not really the point. My statement was based on my observations and experiences; trying to devalue my perspective by arguing how difficult the situation for American men is, is missing an opportunity to broaden your perspective. To understand the other you must not fall for the reflex to start defending your own point of view but try to identify with the point of view of the other. Developing the flexibility to let go of your own perspective and adopt a new perspective will make you grow.
Let me once again try to share my perspective with you.
My previous post was an attempt to explain seemingly irrational female behavior by trying to show how people get caught in a personality structure and how we try to find freedom within our constrictions. I described how being a ‘hot, sexy wild chick’ is just another role, just another cage. But because this particular package of characteristics is sexually attractive and immature men get burnt, the Psycho Bitch From Hell stereotype has a bit of a urban myth like status that I wanted to balance more. This time I will share my insights on ‘how to neutralize craziness’ if you wish to call it like that or—my preference—how to be a mature man in a difficult situation.
If you want to deal with a ‘psycho bitch from hell’ you have to learn to listen. You have to understand what listening is. Listening is much more than hearing something, processing it and then reacting in a way that suits your beliefs and opinions about the world and yourself. That is what we think listening is. It is more than that. Listening is developing your awareness.
In his book ‘The Power of Now’ Eckhart Tolle speak of different levels of consciousness. I think he calls it ‘unconscious’ (the normal, every-day human state), ‘deeply unconscious’ (rage, pain, suffering, deep ignorance, etc) and ‘awake’. Bitch-like behavior is just a form of deeply unconscious behavior. Like all deeply unconscious behavior it tends to provoke deeply unconscious behavior in others who are exposed to it. The art is to stay present amidst of turmoil. ‘Presence’ is something one can only develop by training.
During my mindfulness courses I read a poem to my participants at the end of every session. One of them is about this story: a ferryman is crossing the river with his boat. He sees another boat coming his way and shouts. The boat doesn’t change its direction and the ferryman shouts louder and louder at the other skipper. As the boats are about to collide the ferryman is cursing furiously. Then he sees that the other boat is empty.
The ferryman could have just changed his course at the moment he became aware of the other boat. All the anger, fear, frustration and pride were his own obstacles. If the ferryman had less inner obstacles it would be easier for him to maneuver his boat across the river.
Listening is not feeling sorry for yourself. When you learn to listen you will learn that the sad story you are telling yourself is just a sad story that you keep feeding. When you learn to listen you can transcend your own sad and disempowering story; you don’t have to take yourself so fucking seriously anymore. It is essential to transcend your own story because your story is like a lens: everything that you experience is colored and therefore contaminated by your past experiences. You will never really hear what the other is saying when you are filtering her words and actions through your personal lens. Once you have transcended your story you will make yourself available to others. If you are a heterosexual male this will naturally include the women you date.
Listening is not repeating what the voice in your head tells you to say. Listening is hearing all the voices and sensations until it gets quiet and you can hear what is underneath. When you become a good listener there is no separation between what you hear inside and outside. When you truly listen to a deeply unconscious person you will not feel a bitch or a jerk but only a deeply wounded, caged and desperate person.
Learning to listen will teach you compassion, not just for others but also for yourself. You will become kinder, more empathetic and you are not amazed when somebody starts shouting like the ferryman. You are honest enough to admit that you were the same not that long ago. You will learn to behave naturally instead of self consciously.
When you have learned to listen deeply you will be able to hold the space for others, including psycho bitches from hell. By not fighting her anger, woundedness or confusion you will help her ground. Also you will not feel the need anymore to box and label people the way you used to do before. But you can empathize with those who still do.
The difference between an immature and a mature man is presence. With presence comes selflessness, wisdom and compassion. When you understand your masculinity you want to serve the feminine where the immature man wants to suppress the feminine. A mature man wants to serve the feminine because it makes him complete and because he can. Some samurai master put it like this: when faced with a woman or child in a situation in which they are vulnerable, there are two types of men: those who would offer succor or aid, and those who prey upon them.
Woman is life and man is the servant of life. The male’s job is to protect the women.
—Joseph Campbell
The world desperately needs mature men. Our psycho bitches are good shit tests. If you don’t have enough presence to help her through her turmoil your contribution to mankind will be limited too. You need more practice. But if you can be with her in the midst of suffering and help her find the way back to clarity you will be able to touch many hearts in your life time. And you still practice because you want to practice.
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This post, and others in the Psycho Bitch from Hell series, has inspired Atalwin to create 2 Workshops in New York City around the themes of these articles. MORE INFORMATION HERE.
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This was previously published at Basic Goodness.
Read more on Sex & Relationships.
Your comments about presence and listening are important and well expressed. You bring up many, many other issues – far too many to address in such a short article. Listening and empathy may indeed be very helpful to some people – of both sexes – who are playing a role. But you assume without any apparent evidence that all of these women from hell are looking for counsel and help with their issues. This is a highly sentimental view of humanity that I do not share. Some may fall into that category. Others may enjoy being who and what they… Read more »
Wow Atalwin, I love your message about listening. When we reduce people to mere labels, we know we have failed. We are all complex and multi-dimensional. The human capacity for growing, learning, and change is immense. People don’t get “unhinged” without cause. Those causes are very often ignored when passing judgement. At the end of the day, there is really no way to pass judgement and be compassionate. There is no way for us all to be happy without compassion. The capacity for change in even the most backward people, male or female, starts with compassion. Take it from a… Read more »
Nobody — NOBODY — would write an article called “In Defence of Wife Killers” about narcissistic or sociopathic men who batter their wives and children, often to death… and, I must add, with good cause. The so-called psycho bitch from hell exists in two places: 1. The psycho bitch exists solely in the mind of the selfish or abusive partner, parent, spouse, or child. They are the result of projection, exactly what this article deals with. 2. The psycho bitch from hell exists in reality. They are violent, destructive, brutally abusive, etc. They are just as capable of threatening a… Read more »
A brief follow-up just to avoid confusion. When I say:
“Nobody — NOBODY — would write an article called “In Defence of Wife Killers” about narcissistic or sociopathic men who batter their wives and children, often to death… and, I must add, with good cause.”
I do not mean that these men have good cause to commit violence to others. I mean nobody would defends them, and THAT is a good cause. Apologies for the ambiguity, I am in no way justifying domestic violence or spousal murder.
Jeremy…There is no vast conspiracy against white males.ALL men are suffering(except the feminist prez).Feminists could care less about the average man of color.We saw this in the election.The Huffpost and MSNBC,purposely, buried any issues relative to the interests of men under an avalance of womens issues.- Remember The War on Women. The truth is,from my experience,men caused this because for too long they have,through their silence, aided in their own demise.
It seems that this article is triggering reactions from people’s sensitive egos, and causing them to miss the point (men and women). This article is not about extreme situations involving abusive relationships, and it is also not suggesting that abuse is okay. When I read this article it reminded me of the saying “you only hurt the ones you love” and I believe that both men and women alike are guilty of expressing raw emotion in an unproductive manner – i.e. like a psycho bitch – especially in intimate relationships. There is a sense of safety in this that causes… Read more »
This is well said. A voice that believes in equality is quite rare. But as noble men used to support the efforts to remedy injustices towards women and minorities, we would be well served as a people to open our eyes to how the pendulum has swung in the other direction. And this idea of reverse discrimination is still hotly debated. Many will say its impossible for a white male to experience sexism or any discrimination because men, make more money on average than women (a junk science statistic) or whatever “facts” are found. I’ve been a democrat my whole… Read more »
I agree Jeremy that the court system for divorce is hypocritical in many ways. Not all mothers are promiscuous, and not all fathers are dead-beats. As parents, no one is perfectly fit. In an ideal world, every divorce case would be judged case-by-case to ensure the best for both parties and the children involved. However, with the soaring rates of divorce in our society, I think it is safe to say that courts and parents alike really don’t have time or money for this. This is not to condone the sometimes poor decisions made in court, but just to acknowledge… Read more »
…My experience with many people who are into yoga-I live near Berkeley,Ca- is that they use it as a short cut to greater spirituality- bypassing the real hardwork of growth and change.Many of these people are disconnected from the kind of real giving and sacrifice that grows a person’s spiritually.
Seems to me that once again women get the short straw with the succinct but potent label…
Prey tell what is the male equivalent of a ‘psycho bitch’?
(Anyone can be an asshole, unisex labels do not count)
Prey tell what is the male equivalent of a ‘psycho bitch’? Abuser, misogynist, jerk, douche, dick, dickhead, etc…. Yes I said abuser because the language is shaped to the point that the very act of abuse is defined as “something that men do to women”. This casts men as terrible beasts that brutalize women with the goal of controlling them, even in cases where he is the one that is being abused by her. You are right to point out that women seem to have a special term carved out for them when they do that stuff, but that’s because… Read more »
Alison…Thank you so much.Just knowing that a place like this exists is stress reducing.It is good to know that someone is listening.This site is great.
Anyone can be an abuser, and the abused needs the support of a strong team in order to get as far away from their abuser as possible. Our society’s gender roles do a disservice to abused men, to the extent that many of them don’t even acknowledge that they are being abused. This is a discussion that needs to be normalized. Dr. Palmatier’s website and articles such as Mr. Pilon’s get people talking, which is essential.
Anyone having problems with a Personality Disordered Person (whether your spouse, girlfriend, a family-member or friend) PLEASE go to Shrink4men.com. It is an invaluable resource for abused men and their families. I believe this is a serious issue for many men, and I know men who have benefitted greatly from the content of this website. By the way, I am in no way affiliated with Dr. Palmatier’s website.
Hot discussion! And it seems that in spite of a wide range of different opinions nobody is wrong) Because everyone has one’s own experience, way of thinking and level of consciousness. And this level is not higher or lower compare to others’, but just different. And for me personaly the main idea of this post is not so much about relationships, or psychology, or philosophy. It has deep fundamental spiritual essence. For those who are acquainted with yoga and tantra, where a man is a manifestation of Consciousness and a woman is a manifestation of Energy, it’s pretty clear. And… Read more »
Thanks Mee, I couldn’t have said it better myself. I am glad I am not the only one who understands this dynamic. The archetypal realities are very relevant to our daily lives whether we acknowledge it or not.
I would like to agree with you, Mee. I definitely understand and appreciate that you are explaining the perspective of where the author is coming from, and the problem I have with this perspective is not that it’s not a mature or even perhaps a “better” perspective to take, but rather that assumption is that whenever you meet a “psycho bitch” you’re just coming up with a woman who’s had a bad experience and is reacting irrationally, so we should take the time “understand how she’s been hurt.” The thing is a woman who has been hurt and is upset… Read more »
Beautiful Mee. I am happy that you understood what I have been trying convey and I am impressed how you included and embraced the perspectives of all the other commenters too. Yes, in a covert way I have been trying to explain a tantric mechanism stripped from theory and brought back to its bare essence: developing consciousness by practicing listening in the most fundamental sense of the word. I like to use non-spiritual language so I just call it listening. It is nice for me to switch to the (feminine) role of the receiver and feel the calming and grounding… Read more »
I can’t find a single credible source that deals with anger management in the domestic context- not A.A.R.D.V.A.R.K.,not the Asian American Women’s Health Center and not Pandora, that puts the burden on the victim; not one.
William…I have had discussions about this emotional immaturity with others and women who behave this way,it has been speculated,use it to control. Allowing anyone to behave this way gives them tremendous control.Additionally,women who behave this way are underdeveloped in the emotional control centers in the brain.Remember,Kat trained herself- her brain- to be,to WORK differently than before.This behavior is not accidental as women who behave this way benefit.
More empathy for women?? Enough is enough! As a true liberal, I believe in true equality and what’s needed in this day and age is for women to answer to someone and be put in check like men are. Men and boys are the ones that need to be understood. Just look at our failing schools and failing families as perjury is never charged in custody courts and fathers are removed from their children’s lives left and right. What we have today are the new bigots and we need the new liberals to stop drinking the antiquated kool-aide of political… Read more »
Eagle35…I think you are right in that pardoning these behaviors in women has the added affect of making it harder to idenitfy violence from women in other contexts.This is a strange discussion.If you are a guy who wants to be free of unreasonable anger from your partner,you can’t be.
My comment was moderated and deleted, ogwriter, so unless the moderators here do something about it, people aren’t going to know the context behind it.
Atalwin…,,its get more difficult if you really love the girl”…and those who follow a different script that works for them,aren’t in real love?Surely there are better ways for a man to achieve zen like self awareness than to subject himself to this.One could dedicate oneself to understanding the plight of those less fortunate. I don’t find much spiritual meaning in parenting another adult. I find it is a stretch to equate babysitting an adults emotional excesses with “caring for other peoples struggles” in the world, as Notavi implies .Sounds good and sweet but the two ideas are not the same… Read more »
I quite like this article, I think it touches on an important point about the value of caring for other peoples struggles. Sure, you can point out that no-one has a right to expect that other people put up with their misbehavior, and that the responsibility for dealing with their problems ultimately lies with them and no-one else. You’d be right, but you’d also be missing the real point here. They may not have a right for us to care, but nor do we have a right to expect any empathy from them. Do we really want a world where… Read more »
There comes a point in time when a person needs to overcome their struggles, and that point is when they know what their struggles are, want’s to overcome them & and how to overcome them. If they can continue down the path theyre going while bringing everything down around them, its time to cease being that shoulder to cry on. Wanting to overcome their struggles is a big one as I’ve known people who revel in their victimhood, with a sense of entitlement to smypathy and help from others.
Of course, you can empathize with someones struggles without requiring you to put up with their abuse. If they’re not willing to work on the their issues, walking away to protect yourself from them is absolutely the right call. Maybe it’ll be harder to do feeling pity instead of anger, but it’s doable. I’m not sure I agree with framing the consequences of peoples emotional insecurities as always capital-A Abuse. Sure, a lot of capital-A Abuse is perpetrated by damaged people, but not everything damaged people do is severe enough to warrant that label. It’s the less severe stuff where… Read more »
I’d consider helping in both cases but the turning point is when it become a drain on yourself and they refuse to go about overcoming their problem. Simply having conversations can wear thin, i don’t agree that people should just listen and reassure them. How long can you have the same conversation with someone and offer the same advice before deciding to cut ties. Empathy is one thing, being an enabler is another.
Yep, if someone isn’t willing to help themselves it isn’t even within our power to help them. If it’s clear they won’t help themselves, it’s a waste to try to help them.
It just seems sometimes that people have a hair-trigger for the ‘just leave’ option sometimes, in situations where other viable options exist. It seems to me that it can be a much harder call to make than that.
Kat…everyman deserves to be with someone with your perspective.It is fair and balanced in it’s expectations of each and set clear and attainable boundaries. Right on.
Adam…Sounds like an awfully high price to pay to have a version of love that isn’t for everyone. Besides, we already live in a culture that still does not expect women to own the consequences of their anger.This point of view only exascerbates the problem. I can tell you what I have tried to some success.I discuss anger and possible ways to deal with it openly and often. One can find out much about a person’s comfort zone that way.I look for signs of disassociation she may have about her anger such like if she says,”I really don’t get angry.… Read more »
“I agree that an American man who has to pay a suffocating amount of alimony to his ex-wife and can’t see his kids suffers terribly from feelings of injustice but somehow it seems preferable over being beaten, locked up, denied education and raped.” So, is this comparing the ex-husband with women or with other men? Around the world there are millions of men who are beaten, locked up, denied education, and raped. I agree with much of the suggestions in the article, as long as we emphasize the “if,” as in IF you want to deal with a woman you… Read more »
Quick test, reverse the genders, and see if it is offensive. “I described how being a ‘hot, sexy wild chick’ is just another role, just another cage. But because this particular package of characteristics is sexually attractive and immature men get burnt” COULD READ “I described how being a ‘TOUGH MACHO MAN’ is just another role, just another cage. But because this particular package of characteristics is sexually attractive and immature WOMEN get burnt” Really, healthy relationships need to be obviously different from abusive ones, so that people like the author don’t accidentally give abusers a social licence. The solution… Read more »
You’re very ready to condemn a man for not putting up with a “psycho bitch: as “immature” (under the guise of “understanding” and “listening” to the poor harmed soul). I’d like to hear about the immaturity of women who act in such a manner. Why is this type of behavior excusable when it comes from a woman? The mature man is the one who walks away from a woman who acts like a “psycho bitch”. The immature one is the man who hasn’t grown (most likely because of how society has told him to “respect” women at all times) to… Read more »
The mature man is the one who walks away from a woman who acts like a “psycho bitch”.
Entirely correct. Abusive people don’t deserve tolerance and acceptance; they deserve outright rejection. That doesn’t change just because the abuser is a woman, and it’s high time we quit excusing and accommodating such behavior from women in general (and “hot women” in particular, who’ve apparently never heard the word NO).
@ Kat “I have every excuse in the book to act like the psycho bitch from hell. But I make the choice not to. I make the choice to work on my emotions and learn how to articulate them in better way” That’s it I could get angry, but why mess up the rest of my day ?, why make every interaction soon afterward really about someone else ? Makes me remember something my mother once said “don’t bring that attitude in here, take that back where it came from”. @ Stacey Even in a temparory state a person’s still… Read more »
‘scare quote’ gee okay…well hostility aside elementary_watson. My point was that none of you are putting this ‘psycho bitch’ behaviour in any kind of relevant context. And out of context of course the bitch is completely to blame. But most guys here are treating it as if it is a removed phenomena completely separate from the relationship ie the guy and the expectations and judgments society moulds us to have, which vary between the sexes. Thank you for assuming my opinion and what I deduced from reading this article, because I’m a woman. Yes one could claim, but then one… Read more »
Are you asking for us to put ourselves in her shoes at the heat of the moment? Because its hard to do when we are experiencing our own reactions to her “temporary state” of psychoness! If we put ourselves in her shoes after all is said and done, how can we approach it with the same passion and or conviction that would allow us to examine what just happened on the same level? The question is given our differences could we realistically even do that? I’m not trying to be a smart ass about this, I would really like to… Read more »
That’s an excellent question. What I’ve learned from Atalwin and others (such as experts on dissociation) is that it takes practice to be present all of the time, and particularly in moments like this, when you are likely to panic. There are some exercises you can do, depending on your tradition, in meditation and psychology.
This was the answer I quickly wrote to Mark personally: Hey Mark, Your questions are coming into my inbox and I am a bit busy now. Dont want to go to the page now. But in short: yes, you can. And yes, it is difficult and gets more difficult if you really love the girl. And you will make mistakes. Sometimes I still fall flat on my face but it happens less and less and I see my ignorance it faster and faster. If this is a real thing in your life you are part of a destructive pattern. You… Read more »
I started because I wanted to suppress my anger since I had a girl who would (violently) accuse me and my anger of being the source of all evil. Thank you for this, Atalwin. But what if you in fact aren’t angry? What if you actually make a point of being calm and “present”, and this only fuels the anger of your “opponent” even more? Presence is disarming. it doesnt work just with girls but also with aggression in life. I am a guy that can stop violence because i am (or can be) threatening if i want. I’m a… Read more »
@ Atalwin so basically you’re flipping the script and saying that victims of abuse are responsible for the abusers actions ? If the guy had attacked you he would and should be 100% responsible for what he’d done to you. Believe the evil in the world is cause by your thoughts is a ridiculous idea and quite suspicious since it came from someone that was abusive to you.
This seems to be about blaiming the abused for the action of the abuser. This whole artical is a combination of psudopsycobable and justification of female on male domstic abuse, and a load of sexist clap trap about how women can’t control there emotions and how men are strong and should change to fit the mould SOME women want.
Discussting.
“When you have learned to listen deeply you will be able to hold the space for others…” Great sentence…! When I was in the hospital recovering from surgery, my doctor knocked quietly and came into the room, careful not to bump into any furniture, and in a hushed voice asked me how I was doing… I was in a lot of pain and I could not raise my arms to re-fasten my hospital gown without wincing…he just fastened the snaps on the left shoulder of my gown for me…that is grace….it was like a blond angel in green scrubs sent… Read more »
I stopped listening at ‘but somehow it seems preferable to being ‘ For starters, let’s look at the ways in which this statement is simple BS: beaten – I know, because men are never victims of violence in this society. locked up – so… who, exactly, fills American prisons again? denied an education – LMFAO. Yes, because in America, women are denied an education. That happens. You in no way just made that up. raped/i> – Again, what happens to those men who you claim don’t exist, the ones sitting in prison for non-violent crimes? But beyond that, people who… Read more »
My reaction to women who choose to abuse is the same as it is to men who choose to abuse… I walk away. I know there are underlying causes. I understand that but I value myself and I don’t need to be the person the abuser works their stuff out on anymore. And all abusers need to be accountable and take responsibility for their own actions (male or female). I don’t believe in acting like this abusive behavior is any more forgiveable in women than it is in men. I can be all zen with this. I can be present… Read more »
I guess I should take a break from emotionally engaging with these kind of discussions, as I feel like it makes my mind run in more and more narrow paths. I feel like I should be able to respond to this comment in a more appreciative, honestly admiring way than simply calling for it to become comment of the day. But sadly, all I can say is: This should be comment of the day! It appreciates the issues of the abusive person, the limits of the person dealing with that behaviour, and, most refreshingly, doesn’t claim that “presence” and “listening”… Read more »
Women need to be held accountable. Not treated like a fragile being that control her abuse.
Comment of the day right here!
Exactly.
4th’d for comment of the day.
5th’d all the way.
It’s about time SOMEBODY says it.