Emily Heist Moss prefers to look at the kindness of strangers rather than worry about men as sketchy stereotypes.
I prefer to travel alone. I spend an hour in front of one El Greco painting, and then breeze right past every other wonder the Museo del Prado has to offer. I stop and sit in a park for half a day pretending to read while scoping out the local population. I meet strangers and make friends more easily alone, encounters that usually top any tourist adventure I might find in my Lonely Planet guide. I’m at my most selfish and self-indulgent when I fly solo.
I also feel at my most vulnerable. I’m in unfamiliar places, navigating in languages I barely speak, if at all. Sometimes, I go to countries where the presence of a wandering single white woman is an attraction in and of itself. There are probably at least a hundred Indians with surreptitious cell phone pictures of me; apparently I was just that photogenic. Are there moments of discomfort? Of course; I view them as the price of admission to the parts of the world I want to see. Do I feel in danger? Very rarely. Are my fears misplaced? Am I demonizing foreign men when I should be celebrating the kindness of strangers?
* * * * *
A few years ago, I was working my way from the north of Spain to Gibraltar. One evening in Barcelona, I went to watch a light and water show at a city fountain. Late by my American standards, the Spaniards were still enjoying dinner at 11pm. A group of businessmen chatted me up by the fountain; they seemed harmless, if flirtatious. As I walked back to my hostel, I realized one of the men was trailing me.
He approached me, and said something in Catalan I didn’t understand. I responded in Spanish, telling him to have a good night, and waving him away. For a block, he hovered just a few feet over my shoulder. He approached again, lightly grabbing my elbow. Though the precise language of his proposition was lost on me, the gist was clear: American girls all have a price, what was mine?
I waved him off more forcefully, telling him clearly and loudly to leave me alone. I ducked into a KFC to regroup, hoping he would scuttle off. I had a few Euros and a hostel key, no cell phone and no one to call. My lurker made figure-eights in front of the restaurant, periodically checking to see that I was still there. Behind the counter, a pimply 16-year-old lounged with his coworkers. I looked at this kid, and then out at the man on the sidewalk, and decided I had to trust someone and it might as well be this teenager. I told him, as best I could, that there was a bad man outside and I needed help. He walked out with me where I pointed out the stalker, still pacing and eying me. My teenaged helper shielded me from view, protectively held my elbow, and flagged a cab. He told the driver to take me as far as my remaining Euros would get me. I cried in the backseat and told the non-English-speaking cabbie the whole story. He promptly took me all the way to the hostel, shortage of Euros be damned.
You can listen to this story and extrapolate that Spanish men are aggressive, sexist, rude horndogs. Some of them certainly are. When I tell this story, I focus on the creep and my audience usually launches into their own variations on this experience. Unfortunately it isn’t uncommon for single women to find themselves followed, touched, catcalled or harassed while traveling. You could also listen to this story and see two regular Spanish men, a fast food employee and a cabdriver, who helped me out of a sticky situation.
I’ve been telling the story all wrong. I’ve been calling it “that time I was stalked by the creepy guy” instead of “that time I was rescued by the kindness of strangers.” It’s unfair of me to emphasize the stalker when the KFC guy and driver played equal, and better, parts in this play. It focuses on the salacious, scandalous stereotype instead of the decency of ordinary people. I’ll tell it differently next time.
The truth is, I have exponentially more kindness-of-stranger stories than sketchy-foreigner stories. A man on a train platform in Morocco shared his tea at the end of a Ramadan fast and told me how much he loved America. At a hotel without room phones or wake-up calls, an employee came and knocked on my door at the crack of dawn so I wouldn’t miss my flight. At the airport in Delhi, two English-speaking Indian men offered me their phones while I waited for my delayed friends. If they didn’t arrive, the men assured me, I could come to the wedding they were attending. Every time I have asked for help, and many times I haven’t, it’s been offered generously and respectfully.
* * * * *
When my mother brags about me to neighbors in the supermarket, she often includes my latest adventure. “Alone?” they ask, appalled, “You let her go alone?” Set aside the fact that there’s no “letting” to be done anymore; the neighbors are clearly concerned for my safety. What they don’t realize is that the places I go are no more or less dangerous than the city I walk through every day. There are certainly different risks when traveling alone and I don’t mean to minimize them. People are people everywhere, however, and no matter where you are the vast majority are good and kind and wish to help.
I could focus on the anomalous man who made me feel unsafe and uncomfortable, or I could focus on the surprising and spontaneous kindness of strangers. I think I’ll take the latter. It’s not as exciting a tale, but it’s the truth.
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The article goes through all the men that helped or assisted a woman when she needed it, I love men, they are built to help and assist women.
Thank you for skewing this story to being grateful instead of focusing on the ‘horror’ of one person who as others have said, was not in alignment with you as a woman.
Whatever we focus on expands, let’s focus on the good men and women do each and every day to assist each other, wherever we are in the world.
Thank you, thank you for sending this message loud and clear, Emily. As another single white female who loves to travel alone, I agree that the sobering moments do occur: the footsteps trailing you down an alley, the occasional intense checking-out sessions when you’re not sure what’ll happen or how to escape if you need to…but far, far greater and more significant to me while traveling have been the amazing kindnesses shown me. The restaurant owner in Erice (Sicily) who, concerned about me eating along and sure I must be suffering from a recent abandonment by a boyfriend, or somehow… Read more »
The “other cultures oppress women” is the last politically-correct excuse for racism. It dates way before feminism (in one of the key scenes of the 1917 silent film, “Birth of a Nation”, that practically created the modern KKK, a black former slave tries to rape a white girl but she kills herself instead) but some feminists exploit that old cliché to sell their message but that fear-pandering is just disempowering. It is says “if you are independent, someone will attack you!” The media exploits random, heart-wrenching stories of abuse in other culture (like the notorious Delhi gang rape) as concrete… Read more »
The above article is written in good way. I am a man, I was travelling by intra-city train. There was some crowd in it, but not too much. I was standing in the train holding the pipe. An unknown girl was continuously touching me by her shoulder, though there was no need for her to be that enough close to me. I shifted a slight, thinking its just a coincidence. With 5 minutes, she shifted to be too much close again to me, for my discomfort. With the pretension of holding her purse, her hands were touching my crotch. I… Read more »
hello nice blog nice blog
hello nice blog nice blog thanks
Very encouraging story, and thankyou for sharing. Good god if that didn’t create an explosion of comments. There seems to be two main strands: 1.The guy wasn’t doing anything wrong. The hell he wasn’t. It was my thought for a few lines that there was some innocent explaination, but stalking someone like that is pretty threatening. 2.Women shouldn’t treat all men like potential rapists. This one has me thinking. I have no issue with women taking precautions against strange men, but when it becomes an institutionalised and sexist culture of fear its a problem. Its too big an issues to… Read more »
Very nice story, with a consciousness of growing understandings within it. I’m so pleased that the young man behind the counter responded perfectly to you. Most men are instinctively caring and protective, don’t you think? Often it seems that when a situation is presented to us, we rise to it. When we are creating our own situation, sometimes … we do what we can get away with. The gentleman in the young man and the taxi driver kicked in when asked … thank goodness. The other guy… scary. Sometimes I throw around the word ‘gent’ in a teasing way, and… Read more »
I have had something very similar happen to me. I was in Paris at a transit station waiting for a friend. I’d missed my planned connection from another city, so I was late. I knew my friend would come back at regular intervals to see if I had arrived. I sat at the station with my bags as it got dark out. An African man looked at me like he was going to ask some innocuous question like what time it was, so I looked up and made eye contact. Big mistake. Here it is rude not to make eye… Read more »
@Donna,
He may have misunderstood your intentions initialy, but even an imbecile can understand the words, “No”, “Stop that”, or “Go away”.
Oh, for goodness’ sake, fellas, would you lot ever go away with your petty grousing about females reacting in fear when you approach them! Do you seriously expect a woman to prioritise your egos over her personal safety? You’d be hard pressed to find a woman, or little girl, who hasn’t been sexually attacked, and unlike simple assault, there’s very little they can do about it. It’s not always advisible to go to the police (even WPC’s have publicly stated that they wouldn’t dare go to their colleagues were they raped, because of how badly they’d be treated), and if… Read more »
It’s a good bet he followed you and stalked you because you’re a woman, but it’s not the only possibility. He could have been harassing you because you’re an American, or because he’s crazy and latched onto you the way crazies latch onto individuals all over the world. Gender hierarchy may not be the only thing at work here. The flip side of the sexist coin is that maybe these men were kind to you because you were a woman alone. A single man accosted by strangers may not have gotten the same assistance from strangers. The two helpful men… Read more »
Men shouldn’t take it personally at all when women see them as potential hazards when walking down a street alone at night. I don’t think this should be about changing women’s attitudes. Women constitute the vast majority of rape victims. It’s just plain fact. We live in a society that teaches you to not get raped rather than to NOT rape. Women can’t be blamed for being cautious in situations like these, when they’ve been taught their whole life that if their guard isn’t completely up, they’re at fault for their own sexual assault somehow.
At the risk of continuing the cycle but women shouldn’t get bent out of shape when men take such broad generalizations personally. The fear of rape the lingers over women is unfair, no question. But given that out of all men only a very small portion of us are rapists I still say its unfair for men to be expected to not take it personally when we are presumed to be rapists just because we gender with the most common rapists. In fact I think its funny. Women telling men not to take the broad generalizations personally and men telling… Read more »
Sara: When you say “We live in a society that teaches you to not get raped rather than to NOT rape” that’s just not true. Who do you know that is taught to rape? I’m willing to bet that even the rapists have been taught not to rape. We all know rape is horrible, and the people who engage in it ignore that awfulness. Very few of them are brought up in a “pro-rape” environment. I understand why a woman would be cautious walking alone at night around a group of men who were acting suspiciously. But a man should… Read more »
To say you’re automatically suspicious of men is pretty insulting. In fact, it’s no different than saying “Black people shouldn’t take it personally at all when women see them as potential hazards when walking down a street alone at night.” Seeing black people as automatic threats because they’re black is no different than seeing men as threats simply because we’re men. Please explain to me how you think these two things are different.
This is one that’s puzzled me for a while (and just try image how black men feel on this).
I can only speak for myself, but unless an individual man does something to indicate that he might do something offensive or harmful, I don’t view that individual man as a potential menace. BUT that doesn’t mean that I don’t have a general awareness that I can be specially targeted and made to feel powerless because of my gender. It’s happened to every single woman I know, in one way or another. So it actually *isn’t* personal. I don’t look at John Doe as a potential rapist; I look at the world as a place that has the occasional sleazeball,… Read more »
I should say: “I look at the world as a mostly pretty awesome place that has the occasional sleazeball…”
mm there is a big difference between what you say here (being aware of your surroundings) and what is often said (something to the effect of, “every man is a potential rapist and its the responsibility of men who aren’t rapists to solve it”).
So while what you say may not be something to be taken personally that doesn’t magically eliminate the fact that the way the message comes across to men acutally *is* very personal.
If someone is saying, as you assert they do, something to the effect of, “every man is a potential rapist and its the responsibility of men who aren’t rapists to solve it,” then I take issue with them as well.
What I thought people here and in other discussions were saying was that it is the responsibility of the person who may take a violent action to *not* take that action, and it is the responsibility of society as a whole, men and women, to continue to discourage people from doing harm to others.
(actually, you can see me debating with some folks who are a bit closer to that line of thought down the page…)
Most recent, most publicized case of women being taught not to get raped:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/the-hot-button/dont-dress-like-a-slut-alleged-safety-tip-from-toronto-police-officer/article1911737/
Men may not be taught to be racists, but in this culture, a lot of the responsibility for avoiding rape is put on the potential victim. And unfortunately, sexual assault (on men as well) is still used as a punchline too often, whereas murder is typically considered a lot less amusing.
Silly typo… I meant to type “rapists” not “racists.” Oops.
Right, but we don’t run around hollering about living in a “robbery” culture or a “theft culture.” We tell people to lock up their valuables, be safe, etc. No one is suggesting we need to teach people not to steal because we all agree that we’ve learned that, and except in the case of rape we agree that begging vicious criminals to stop being vicious criminals is unlikely to be a productive endeavor. Hell, I’ve never once had the slightest bit of success attempting to call out another man for his anti-woman views: “Oh, gosh, Rick, you’re right, I shouldn’t… Read more »
I mostly sort of agree with you. Where I’m a little fuzzy, though, is whether “riskier behavior” for a woman should be considered different than “riskier behavior” for a man. If there is a difference, then maybe *being a woman* IS the risky behavior.
If that’s the case then depending on the behavior in question then there would times when being a woman is the risky behavior (like being the victim of a sex crime) and times when being a man is the risky behavior (like nearly every type of non-sexual violence). And I think based on that there will be cases when what is considered riskier behavior will differ between being a woman and being a man. I kind of agree with Rick as well. Its a nice to try to teach people rape is wrong there are people out there who simply… Read more »
Thanks for the lively debate, guys! Rich, I totally agree that being risk-consicous is a good thing in broad terms (i.e. don’t get in cars with strangers, be aware of your surroundings, etc.) that apply to everyone. Your comment was unclear, but I just hope that by “riskier behavior” you don’t mean “wearing a short dress” or “wearing a low cut top.”
Right. We don’t routinely question and pick apart what a person was doing or wearing if they get attacked in a non-sexual way. If a person gets stabbed or robbed, nothing they did is used to mollify the wrongness of what happened.
Actually that’s not entirely true. When it comes to robbery and stabbing there is sometimes a question of “why were they in that neighborhood?”, “they went there at that time of night?”, etc…
Not trying to say its on the level of sexual attack victims who are victim blamed but it does happen.
I don’t think it’s insulting to men to be careful about your personal safety. I’ve had this argument with my boyfriend and he always gets mad at the idea that women fear rapists because men are statistically more likely to be victims of violent crime. Which is true. Nevertheless, statistics will be cold comfort if I do something stupid and get raped or killed. I read about a 17 year old girl who accepted a ride with 4 men after her car broke down and yes, she ended up getting gang raped and beaten to a pulp. And I feel… Read more »
“Nevertheless, statistics will be cold comfort if I do something stupid and get raped or killed.”
I just don’t think the onus should be on you to NOT GET raped. I hear what you’re saying, and it makes sense, but personally I’d rather put the responsibility where it belongs: on the person who rapes someone. And really, there simply isn’t anything that you can do to absolutely “make sure you avoid [rapists].”
So much for cold comfort, I’ll take pepper spray and/or a rape kit over guilt for being in the wrong place anyday.
MM- You’re right that you can not realistically avoid every threat possible. However, you can take precautions that protect you just the same and minimize the potential to be in a possible dangerous situation. We can tell ourselves all day long that the responsibility is on the people who commit the crime, and it is. But that doesn’t do much to protect someone from the crime. Stating that the responsibility was on the 4 men that raped the young teenager doesn’t take away from the fact that they raped her. Changing her life forever. Sometimes men that committ a crime… Read more »
I do agree to some extent, hence the pepper spray. But where do we draw the line about what’s a reasonable precaution and what isn’t? And if you take precautions and something bad happens to you anyway, should you feel at fault for not having done more? By all means, yes, be careful and protect yourself. We’re all concerned for our own well-being, but when women have to start making different choices than men in that regard, that’s where I personally draw the line. If something terrible and life-changing happens to me because of that, I refuse to be made… Read more »
I didn’t mean to sound like I’m blaming victims. I’m not. It’s not the 17 year old’s fault that she got raped by the guys who offered her a ride. They are criminals and deserve a long, long prison sentence. But I’m still going to take her horrible experience as a lesson to be cautious — it’s just common sense. I am responsible for my own safety.
I agree with several other replies that say that it is unfair to be wary of all men or to assume that any strange man could be a potential rapist. It is insulting to the vast majority of men who are not rapists. But, even as one of those ostensibly insulted men I have to say, “so what if it’s insulting?” I’m not going to tell people to stop being cautious just because other people may be offended by the caution. If someone doesn’t like the steps I take to keep myself out of danger, too bad. I would never… Read more »
Jill: That example of the girl who accepted a ride with four strangers doesn’t really apply. No one is saying women shouldn’t be cautious and exercise common sense. That goes without saying (for both sexes). And while these assholes deserve all the punishment in the world for the wretched crime they committed, it is never smart to accept a ride from a car full of strangers. Again, she did not deserve to be raped. But like you said, exercising common sense is imperative. But then your analogies really fall apart. First of all having car insurance is a law. It’s… Read more »
I don’t think every man is a rapist. A tiny minority of men are rapists. But because I have no way of telling if a strange guy on the street is a rapist or not, yes I need to be wary. I think my analogies are good. I get car insurance because I MIGHT be in an accident. I get mammograms because I MIGHT have cancer. I’m cautious in certain situations, such as traveling alone, being at a gas station at night, taking public transportation etc., because I MIGHT be a victim of crime (could just be a mugging for… Read more »
I have a question: rather than asking why some women might be aware of the unlikely possibility that the men they encounter may want to hurt them, why don’t you men work with the same assumption in mind? I think every comment made here by a woman has acknowledged that the men they pass on the street are incredibly unlikely to harm them. And I think every comment made here by a man has acknowledged that unfortunately a very tiny minority of men (and women) do hurt people. So why don’t men live in the same kind of on-edge state?… Read more »
True, most parents don’t but they should since males are statistically more likely to be the victim of violent assault.
Agreed.
I’d also add that a lot of this conversation has focused on physical harassment, which discounts the impact that verbal harassment can have on a person’s mindset, and is far more common. They may be minor incidents that can be shrugged off with no real harm, but they can add up to feeling of vulnerability and inferiority.
So why don’t men live in the same kind of on-edge state? Because we aren’t allowed to according to the script of being a man. I think this has something to do with why men are more likely to engage in wreckless behavior than women. When it comes to socializing children it seems girls are bogged down in so much fear in interferes with their ability to function (as in tettering on the edge of instantly writing off all males as threats) while boys are stripped of fear to the point that they don’t properly assess risks (as in not… Read more »
Precisely. I couldn’t agree with what you just said much more.
Agreed, the reason men have a higher rate of death than women is largely due to risky behavior. It’s no surprise than car insurance is far more expensive for men under 25. Because statistically, young men drive faster and more aggressively than most girls the same age. Men are disproportionately the victims of violent crime because statistically, men are more likely to be involved in risky or criminal activities that put them in harms way. That’s not true in every case, of course — men can get mugged while walking down the street, or have a home invasion robbery. But… Read more »
So maybe instead of criticizing women for being adverse to risks or being too wary in risky situations, we should encourage boys to take fewer risks.
And I think one thing that would help with that would to stop framing the fact that boys are socialized to actively ignore risk as some sort of “freedom” that girls don’t have.
It’s a knife that cuts both ways. I (and the majority of feminists, in my experience) honestly believe that when talking about gender inequality, we need to talk about both sides.
I’ll just have to take your word on that mm (what you say about “majority of feminists”). I’ve come across too many that are too quick to value their interpretations of men and our experiences over what we are actually saying. Perhaps if more of them were like you…
Agreed!
Excuse me but no one , men or women, should take a ride with strangers, little less a group of them. Many teenage boys are kidnapped and forced to get into a car. This could happen to anyone regardless of being female or male. In fact, in places like Mexico or Colombia where kidnapping rate is so high, women are the first ones to approach the victim precisely under the belief who is going to believe that a woman is going to kidnap.and with that many fall in the trap.Being safe is for everybody men, women, young or elder.
Let’s say the situation was one in which Emily was followed around suspiciously by a woman, Sara. Should she have been less cautious in that circumstance?
If so, why should her guard have been lower in that case?
If not, then I would suggest this is not about being cautious of men, but of being cautious of strangers.
I can dig that. There have been enough cases over the years in which women have acted as the bait in traps for the exact belief of, “women don’t do stuff like that.”
Hi Emily, this is a wonderful article. I too have travelled to other countries alone and have definitely been in a handful of unsafe situations – but I have also been in unsafe situations in my own country. However, I have innumerable stories of the kindness of strangers all over the globe. Thank you so much for once again allowing me to give them the gratitude and blessing they deserve. Good people certainly do far outweigh the ‘baddies’.
Emily, i agree with the views you expressed – this was a well written beautiful piece. Thank you
People are people everywhere you go. (Not just men, but women can also take advantage of people.) Regardless of the intentions men have, we need to have street smarts. Emily, rock on for doing it alone. I’ve learned some of my most valuable lessons the same way.
I too prefer to travel (and go out and do things at home) alone. Being female has never made me change how I chose to spend my time or where. And I tend to trust (within reason), assume the best about, and be polite and thoughtful toward strangers, be they men or women. I have run into very few problems, and the rare occasions I felt I might be unsafe haven’t made me feel threatened by Strange Men in general. However, I think it is disingenuous to say that moving through the world as a woman doesn’t make one aware… Read more »
This is actually sort of what I think of when I think of women (or other marginalized groups) being oppressed. It’s not that we (most of us female westerners) are literally prevented from doing certain things or literally forced to do others. No one holds a gun to our heads and makes us spend crazy money on cosmetics, shoes, and purses. No one withholds food and shelter from us if we choose not to have babies. No one escorts us to a holding cell if we wear a short skirt in the “wrong” neighborhood. In the most basic sense, we… Read more »
What a wonderful post! As a fellow lone traveler, I wholeheartedly agree. I think the moments of vulnerability leave us feeling more wounded, so it’s likely why we focus on them. These trips help me feel my own strength, and then it’s these moments that I realize how vulnerable I actually am. It’s a strange juxtaposition of things. I think what I love most is that I’m completely present to every moment so I experience just about every inch of life.
Nicely expressed. Thank you for hoghlighting the majority rather than the minority.
As this experience illustrates, there are far more men who offer kindness and assistance to strangers on a daily basis, especially to women, than those looking to do harm in some way, but such often gets ignored, is under-appreciated and seldom if ever written about. It’s nice to see good guys getting some press. Thank you for writing this piece and thanks to the GMP for posting it.
Emily, this is a great story with an even better message. Thank you. All too often (and as evidenced by Monday’s comment above) the emphasis is on the jerk who acted inappropriately, and not the multiple good samaritans. Monday: We don’t know what caused that guy to act like he did. Maybe it was the language barrier. Maybe he didn’t really want sex but something else. Perhaps it’s commonplace in that country for men to be more aggressive. Or, more than likely, maybe he was just a creep. But being a creepy isn’t just a guy thing. If you think… Read more »
Hey Aaron, thanks for the support. The dude was definitely a creep, but I absolutely agree with you that projecting that onto all men (per Monday’s comment) is hugely stereotypical and wrong. I will add, though, that while the guy may not have broken any laws, he did do something “wrong.” I very clearly asked him to leave me alone (in multiple languages and with gestures) and he ignored me. I’m pretty sure, with the pacing outside the KFC, that I could make a case for harassment. That being said… it was ONE GUY. That doesn’t say anything about all… Read more »
A really nice piece. Thanks for writing. Makes me think about how feminists always have to defend their interest in equality by spelling out that they DO NOT HATE MEN, which is so ridiculous considering that an appreciating of ALL people doesn’t equal hatred of ONE group of people, individual others, etc. I agree that there is the bigger issue of why threatening behavior is condoned. There’s a system in operation that permits that man to not take a ‘no’ (as opposed to enjoying friendly flirtation or accepting a ‘yes’ if both parties agreed on it) and doesn’t provide an… Read more »
Rebecca: Who is condoning what the guy did? No one that I can see. Even in my comments I said he was acting like an inappropriate jerk. Men are not permitted to act like jerks any more than women are. Part of the problem is people like yourself assume that all men are in this hierarchy and therefore just salivating at the thought of exercising some sort of patriarchal privilege at every turn. I hate to burst your bubble but that’s not the case. We’re not twisting our mustaches & plotting ways to oppress women. Any fool (man or woman)… Read more »
“Part of the problem is people like yourself assume that all men are … just salivating at the thought of exercising some sort of patriarchal privilege at every turn. I hate to burst your bubble but that’s not the case. We’re not twisting our mustaches & plotting ways to oppress women.” The problem is that privilege is usually exercised unknowingly. If there was some sort of evil plot or conspiracy going on, it would probably be a lot more visible to the people who are blind to the more common, innocuous ways sexism and misogyny are manifested. As for “people… Read more »
Because otherwise everything just devolves into an Us-vs-Them shouting match.
mm, there is nothing even remotely nuanced about the statement “That sweet, teenage kid exists in the same hierarchical system as the creepy dude.” It posits a worldview without justification. The idea that the “creepy dude” is not actually part of a “heirarchy” but rather a loan agent doesn’t seem to cross Rebecca’s mind. In reality there is a huge gulf between pretty standard privilege claims such as “I don’t have to fear that I will not be hired because of my gender” and the matter at hand, which seems to be “I have a right to another person’s body.”… Read more »
This is good. I appreciate that you addressed a specific idea that you take issue with, giving the person who wrote it opportunity to clarify or defend it, or take it back if it’s recognized to be wrong. I’ll leave that to them. And you make a good point. Where I disagree with you (and the person who made the original comment, I think) is that I don’t believe the (hypothetical) cause-and-effect works they way you describe; that is, you seem to believe the argument is that privilege leads to and allows for creepy, inappropriate behavior. In my mind, the… Read more »
No the problem with privilege is that it is an incoherent concept
I’ll try to break it down, then, like some did with the race issue. It’s not having to deal with a certain amount of crap every breath we take. Off the top of my head, here are some common perceptions of women that I see thrown in their face on a regular basis… (**Note: I don’t think most men say or believe any of these things. But knowing that some people do, that this mass of hate and ignorance is just floating out there, weighs on some of us sometimes.**) We love chocolate and gossip and romantic comedies. We’re baby-crazy… Read more »
Makes me think about how feminists always have to defend their interest in equality by spelling out that they DO NOT HATE MEN, which is so ridiculous considering that an appreciating of ALL people doesn’t equal hatred of ONE group of people, individual others, etc. While its unfair that the fair minded feminists get treated like that there is no need to pretend those among them that do things like disregard experience are a figament of the imagination. In fact in line with what Daddy Files is saying. Somehow to you the guy that was harassing is the representation of… Read more »
“Somehow to you the guy that was harassing is the representation of men (or at least the one that gets the attention) despite there being more positive men than negative men in the story.” Precisely. For some reason, feminists cannot resist stereotyping men as abusers, harrassers, and victimizers – despite such being in the minority, as illustrated by this story. Makes their argument about not hating men an uphill battle. As I said, no one can say what is in another’s heart (e.g. hatred of men). All we can do is listen to what they say and watch what they… Read more »
I disagree that feminists stereotype men as abusers, harassers, and vicitmizers. It’s tough to prove the absence of something, so maybe we’ll just have to disagree. I just believe there’s a big difference between talking about something that some people do or have done and claiming that a large population of people are like that. And I don’t typically see those sorts of claims. The exceptions to the ordinary, the anomalies, are the things that get the most attention. That’s how it always is. And especially if that anomaly is an issue that we feel should be addressed, it deserves… Read more »
I just believe there’s a big difference between talking about something that some people do or have done and claiming that a large population of people are like that. And I don’t typically see those sorts of claims. I see it come up in the form of writing off the experiences of those that don’t fit said claims simply becasue they share a trait with the wrongdoers. You can’t hardly expect to be able to shut men that don’t rape out of the conversation on rape while at the same time expecting them to address it because they share gender… Read more »
I don’t know the answer to that. I’ll only say that if there is hatred directed at men from feminists, or if it is perceived that way, then that’s a problem and I’m sorry.
I know that’s a hard one to answer (and my apologies if I came off as heated and angry when asking it) mm but thanks for acknowledging that the problem exists.
This site has plenty of examples of feminists stereotyping men as abusers, harassers, and vicitmizers. Just about every feminist site does that to a greater or lesser extent. “Which isn’t to say that the good things people do don’t deserve recognition; they absolutely do.” Except that feminists seldom acknowledge the good that men do, only the bad. The difference between feminists and non-feminists is that feminists tend to speak of and focus on how bad men are, whereas non-feminists are more balanced, acknowledging both the good and the bad in men and women. This is why feminists have the reputation… Read more »
How can you know how every feminist in the world feels about anything?
There you go with another strawman. Where did I say that I know how every feminist in the world feels? The fact that you can’t point to me making any such statement proves that you have built yet another strawman. In fact, I have stated on GMP that I DON’T know what is in anyone’s mind or heart. I can only listen to what they say and watch what they do. That is why, if you were honestly debating, you would acknowledge that my comment (just above) mentioned what feminists “tend” to DO. No mention of how “every feminist in… Read more »
Pointing out problems is not the same as placing blame on every person in an entire group of people. It’s also not the same as hating anyone. Even if every single feminist hated all men (and I don’t agree that very many do), it doesn’t make the issues they discuss irrelevant. “The difference between feminists and non-feminists is that feminists tend to speak of and focus on how bad men are, whereas non-feminists are more balanced, acknowledging both the good and the bad in men and women. This is why feminists have the reputation that they do.” I think the… Read more »
Pointing out problems is not the same as placing blame on every person in an entire group of people. It’s also not the same as hating anyone. Even if every single feminist hated all men (and I don’t agree that very many do), it doesn’t make the issues they discuss irrelevant. “The difference between feminists and non-feminists is that feminists tend to speak of and focus on how bad men are, whereas non-feminists are more balanced, acknowledging both the good and the bad in men and women. This is why feminists have the reputation that they do.” I think the… Read more »
mm. Sorry, I somehow copied your comment. “Pointing out problems is not the same as placing blame on every person in an entire group of people.” Unless broad generalizations are made about the group (in this case males), which often does happen. “It’s also not the same as hating anyone.” No one knows how someone else truly feels. “Even if every single feminist hated all men (and I don’t agree that very many do), it doesn’t make the issues they discuss irrelevant.” I disagree (about the relevance). Why? Hating a group obviously calls the hater’s objectivity about issues related to… Read more »
In this thread, and in most other circumstances I can think of, most feminists of both genders and most women in general have made a point of acknowledging that *most men are good.* Whereas the anti-feminist crowd has pointed out that *most feminists are misandrists.* Of course one’s personal bias will influence how they see things. That needs to be taken into account, but it doesn’t negate a good point if one is made. Here’s a story about the gender education gap. http://jezebel.com/5831868/americans-think-women-need-college-more-than-men-do It’s not exactly what you were talking about, and it focuses on the issue from women’s perspectives… Read more »
I also see a lot of discussion about how the idea of masculinity can be restrictive, burdensome, or harmful to men in many of the same ways that femininity can be for women.
And I see making a point of celebrating good men.
And I see talking about the ways that some women are guilty of the same things some men are (violence, infidelity, objectification, etc). I see standing up for male survivors of sexual assualt, against a mainstream culture that disbelieves such a thing is possible or thinks it’s funny.
mm, you have made my point. The gender education gap is not an issue that feminists care to address. In the entire Internet, with dozens of feminist web sites and countless feminists organizations, all you can find is a single 3 paragraph web magazine article that doesn’t even cite the gender education gap as a problem that needs to be addressed. IF feminism were an equality movement, there would be countless articles and postings on this, as well as a demand for government policies and programs to redress this inequality – just as they would do for girls/women. I am… Read more »
I didn’t search the whole internet. That was one that I was already aware of having read.
And sometimes, most of the time I would argue, equality isn’t about demanding government redress, it’s about working on a personal and interpersonal level to shift attitudes. That’s what most feminist discussion focuses on, in my experience.
mm, thank you. Your comment shows that equality is not the objective of the feminist movement. Not only does the movement not demand government redress for the education gap, they don’t even care enough to discuss the issue. If equalitiy were the aim of the feminist movement, feminists would vigrously and constantly discuss the education gap and demand government redress just as they have done for decades for the wage gap.
Eric. My goodness. Mm has been tirelessly acknowledging your points and trying to see where you’re coming from, and you can’t express the same respect because you’re so hung up on the fact that feminists are focused on making the world a safer place for females but not for you. Big deal! The world is NOT a safe place for most females. There are still inequalities. Some people make it their life’s work to fight to rebalance that. Some people make it their life’s work to see the intersectionality between all of the different structures of oppression, including the the… Read more »
As a 19 year old I traveled alone for two years. Luck, ingenuity and guts wrapped up in naiveness kept me safe. I relate to the kindness of others, have the fondest memories of these travels. It’s sweet how you tied up your story in a bow with the good people and aking yourself to shift your paradigm see the wonderful men and boys in the world. There is a bigger issue that frightens women and teenage girls that is unaddressed here, why men behave like criminals and rabid dog towards women when it’s made clear their behavior is unwanted… Read more »
There is a bigger issue that frightens women and teenage girls that is unaddressed here, why men behave like criminals and rabid dog towards women when it’s made clear their behavior is unwanted and we are scared by what they are doing. Considering the well wishing comments for the story here I think the bigger issue is that people are so busy presuming that men are criminals and rabid dogs (desite the fact that only a small portion of men are like that…). Yes the jerks need to be addressed but are you really going to act like its okay… Read more »
I’m not going to lie, it actually really hurts to be vilified as if all men are vile, rabid dogs. If i’m walking behind a woman at night, I feel like I need to intentionally walk really really fast to rush past her, walk really really slow so she’s far ahead, or cross the street, because she might fear that i’m one of the rabid dogs that has set my sights on her.