David Perry has thought long and hard about the word ‘feminist’. And decided it suits him just fine.
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I am a straight, white, married, American man. I am a feminist.
This is not a trivial label to adopt. The “f-word” is, and always has been, deeply contested. Feminists’ opponents have long accused them of hating men or wanting to destroy families; on the other side, some of those sympathetic to feminist objectives explicitly reject the term.
Some suggest that “feminism” has become obsolete—who needs it when powerful women like Marissa Meyer reject it? Others wonder how to handle the appropriation of the term by women, such as Sarah Palin, who work directly against some rights for women on issues like fair pay and access to abortion. As brilliantly deconstructed by Jessica Valenti, “If anyone—even someone who actively fights against women’s rights—can call herself a feminist, the word and the movement lose all meaning.” Has that happened? Has it lost all meaning?
Female celebrities, the most visible women in the world, muddy the waters (if you took Women’s Studies 101, you’ll remember that “visible” evokes the power of the “gaze”). Lady Gaga can’t be a feminist because she loves male culture, Taylor Swift doesn’t “really think about guys versus girls,” Katy Perry is not a feminist but does, “believe in the power of women,” Madonna is a humanist, and the list goes on . In some cases, one senses a fear of women who market their sexual attractiveness being labeled with the f-word.
The most common dodge away from feminism in my community, among men and women alike, is to agree that they are generally in favor of women’s rights, but to reject the label. Instead, they define themselves as “egalitarian.” The egalitarian argument focuses on generalized equality, rather than specifically fighting for the rights of women.
Egalitarianism is a noble idea and I am not here to reject it. But to simply embrace egalitarianism requires ignoring the continuing the dominance of men in our society, to embrace abstract principles over the realities of power dynamics, and to deny the existence of patriarchy.
I am a feminist because in America, as in much of the West, patriarchy usually functions in a pervasive and subtle way. As the great historian Judith Bennett argues in History Matters (and elsewhere), patriarchy usually does not consist of a group of men getting together in a room explicitly to discuss how they might better oppress women this week—which is a pity, because otherwise we could just find that room and lock the door (from the outside).
Instead, patriarchy permeates our culture, pushing us to act in ways that reinforce the subordinate status of women and also place limits on male identity. Patriarchy shapes the gender norms that invade our minds nearly from birth. Unless we deliberately pursue the ways that patriarchy shapes our speech, actions, media, and so much more, we assume that the structural power dynamics are natural. We assume that boys will just be boys and girls just want to be pretty. When patriarchy is subtle, we also lack clarity for who we should target when trying to effect social change. We must move deliberately to work against it, identifying pathways to change. That kind of deliberate action lies at the core of my feminism.
♦◊♦
I am a feminist because when I go to McDonald’s (and yes, I know I shouldn’t go to McDonald’s), and order a Happy Meal, they ask me whether I want a “boy’s toy or a girl’s toy.” The boys’ toys are active, with moving parts, and often violent: cars, giants, aliens, catapults, action figures, heroes, and heroic paraphernalia. Girls’ toys come in pink, purple, yellow, and orange. They are passive—at most, they sparkle. Dolls, plastic versions of clothing, and animals—but not animals that might climb or hunt, but cute little things you can snuggle. Right now, boys get Hot Wheels ™. Girls get Sparkle shoes (little plastic keychain shoes, covered in hearts and flowers) from Sketchers ™. The people at the counter are supposed to say—do you want the shoe or the car? But they never do. What am I supposed to do if my son wants the shoe and my daughter the car? Of course, having heard the gender norming question, they just go with what’s expected.
I am a feminist because when Marion Bartoli won Wimbledon, the BBC host, John Inverdale, said, “Do you think Bartoli’s dad told her when she was little, ‘You’re never going to be a looker? You’ll never be a [Maria] Sharapova, so you have to be scrappy and fight.’” The comments on twitter, in the same vein, were much more vulgar. The key here is that a woman was being judged for her appearance, not for her (awesome) accomplishments. We see this constantly, from Wired’s profile of a leading Google engineer that begins with a discussion of wardrobe, to the way my daughter won an award for “best-dressed” when she was four.
I am a feminist because when a British man won the men’s Wimbledon title, the announcers crowed, “Andy Murray ends 77 years of waiting for a British champion,” they either forgot or didn’t care that Virginia Wade, a British Woman, had won a title in 1977.
I am a feminist because sometimes we do see literal bodies of patriarchs, gathered in a room, oppressing women—and we can’t just lock the door. In Texas, at the end of June, a woman in white stood, for eleven hours, as men in dark suits for eleven hours tried to silence her. Senator Wendy Davis remained standing in her sneakers and filibustered the cruel anti-abortion bill about to pass the Texas Senate. The men tried to game the system, judging discussions of forced sonograms and Planned Parenthood somehow non-germane, and even placing a fraudulent time stamp on the bill even though they voted after the session had expired.
I am feminist because on the next day, Governor Rick Perry called a special session to reconsider the bill. He invoked Senator Davis’ own history as a single mom as a means of delegitimizing her argument, though later, relying on the excuse used by many harassers of women, he claimed he was just giving her “compliments.” When the Texas legislature debated the bill, women were forced to dispose of tampons and pads before being allowed to enter gallery (though, as widely noted, guns were fine). North Carolina, Ohio, and Wisconsin have all passed anti-abortion legislation recently, often using shady legislative tricks. These bills endanger women’s lives, force women to carry unliving fetuses to term, and strip away women’s legal control over their own bodies.
Finally, I am a feminist because it’s good for men too. I am an active, involved, father with serious professional ambitions. Feminism promotes not just the idea that “women are people too,” but that one can organize one’s life in diverse, equally acceptable, ways. I take full advantage of that in my complex life, talking freely about my family obligations in the workplace as I pursue balance in my life.
My examples—Wimbledon, Wendy Davis, McDonald’s—the ways in which sexism and patriarchy attempt to govern our lives – all manifested themselves in the last few weeks. By the end of summer, I will have many other examples, as the fight against patriarchy continues, perhaps endlessly. And that’s why I’m a feminist, because the threats against women’s rights are real, and the consequences matter for all of us.
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photo: KLHint / flickr
I have to say David, you’ve stirred up quite a fire storm. I haven’t seen this level of interest in quite some time. Problem is that when you step away for a moment, I have umpteen responses to filter through. I get mail on my phone but I hate using the key pad. Anyway, personally, I think that the issue of responsibility starts long before a person has sex. If a man and a women had the mindset right from the start and realistically looked at the potential problems that may result from sex, be more discerning, maybe we wouldn’t… Read more »
I agree about not wanting that debate. Afk for a few hrs now.
The main question I have for you and other Straight Married White American Male Feminists is this: What do you, and straight white American males such as myself, gain from supporting feminism? How does patriarchy hurt me, as a straight white man who has no problem with gender roles. You mentioned that you are a feminist “because sometimes we do see literal bodies of patriarchs,” in various places. What do those of us who aspire to be patriarchs have to gain from feminism?
When you say – aspire to be patriarchs – what do you mean?
I’ve addressed your question from my perspective elsewhere in the thread, I’m afraid. I know it’s long, but dig around for it.
well personally I’m done coming to this website after this whole shindig. I’ve had several of my comments deleted which I presume is strictly because I disagree with the author. I don’t believe in censorship and in fact have never deleted any comments or blocked any people from any of my blogs I’ve put on the internet (except bots with spam). Even worse reading the comment above from the GMP that anyone can be an author, feminist or MRA – then what is the point to this website? If a bunch of feminists post articles then this website hardly has… Read more »
I’m a man. I’m a feminist. I am arguing that embracing feminism is one way to be a good man. What could be more relevant?
I’m sorry that message frightens you.
Just for information, I wrote to the GMP to ask about its moderation policy, and I receive the following reply Hi Johann, It is absolutely our goal to have an open dialogue and to continue to talk about men’s issues from a wide variety of viewpoints. However, commenters who continually try to disprove what an author is saying are considered attacking that author. It is an attack on the author’s beliefs, an attack on their intelligence and it is an attack on their thinking. We do not have the resources to devote a full time moderator to the posts, so… Read more »
Let me tell you what it looks like from my perspective. I have personally hit approve on probably 200 comments, mostly from the same 5-6 people, that disagree with me, often intensely, often espousing views I find dangerous, misguided, or offensive. I have watched this become an unsafe space for feminists not used to the battles to join in, lest they be bullied. I have deleted generalized feminist bashing. I have deleted personal attacks on me. I have apologized when called on generalizing rather than focusing on specifics. And if that’s not enough for you, if you haven’t dominated this… Read more »
Just posting as a test to see if I am banned.
Here something from the today’s The Guardian about debates online :
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/blog/2013/jul/29/internet-comment-flame-wars-why
>thinks equality outside of legal opportunity is important >cares about hurt feelings >thinks politics is social issues >double standards for dominant groups >extra pity for oppressed groups >thinks pity is a good thing >thinks privilege should be evenly spread and not contested for Sure is naive white people in here Reality check: The world is a competition for dominance, control and order. The freedom to offend is much more important than people who take offense (i.e. hurt feels). If people aren’t being offended it’s usually because you’re not having an honest conversation. Reading things like this makes me wonder if… Read more »
Iben says:
July 29, 2013 at 1:54 pm
Hi John Schtoll
Do you want control over women’s bodies and their sexually ?
Should men have total control over women’s bodies is that what you try to say?
I am not sure what he exactly means. Some more explanation is required from him.
I think, it’s more about father’s rights, it’s not about to order abortions, but about to stop abortions, just my opinion.
Good, so now we see the forced birther ideology emerge. I thought it would show up eventually. It’s good to have the enemy exposed. Yohann, you will not be able to post on this thread further.
David, I’m not sure that this comment really warrants banning Yohan, although I can see you are frustrated with him. I had the same thought Yohan did regarding John Schtoll’s comments – that John is asking about father’s rights post-conception, most likely in the form of preventing abortion. But that is just my guess, too. Since the comment thread is now over 250 comments, maybe just stepping back and letting whoever wants to have the final say make their peace is the best way to go. There are consistent voices on GMP that sometimes get entrenched, myself included, and it… Read more »
I think this is a prime example of why TGMP should implement a policy to prohibit authors from also being the moderators of their own works, particularly if they are involved in the comments section.
Fair enough. But I’m following procedures as I was told and have been trying to have a fair, ad hoc, conversation. There are many many many comments here deeply critical of my essay and of me, and they passed through moderation without hesitation. Others, ad hominem (to me or to others), have been moderated into the trash. Some positions, including forced birtherism, are extremist and vile. I’m comfortable with my decision. If you’re not, well, there are lots of threads on GMP, and I’m genuinely sorry that you feel that way. I have learned a lot from the MRA comments… Read more »
I think Yohan was offering an interpretation of John’s comments not endorsing any position.
Aside- are you referring to pro-life beliefs when you say “forced birtherism?” I’ve never heard the term before.
Pro-life encompasses many positions. As the father of a boy with Down syndrome, I’m very much involved, for example, in efforts to convince people to choose life instead of eugenic abortion (a huge side-track. Excuse me).
Forced birthers believe that once a man has impregnated a woman, even through rape, he has the power to force her not to get an abortion.
If that is not Yohann’s position, then I sincerely apologize and will, of course, be delighted to go back to more or less polite disagreement with him.
Thanks for the clarification
David, I commend you for your efforts and applaud them in relationship to choosing life. My wife and I were confronted with a situation of the “unknown” when our daughter was born. In our world, there was no option other then to have the baby. That being said, I have to ask the question and believe me, there is no ulterior motive other then to better understand your position on the issue of what you call “forced birtherism.” What would your position be had your wife not wanted your child and wanted an abortion. As a father, you know we… Read more »
Tom, I have a number of thoughts. 1. No one actually knows what they would do in these hypothetical situations. Too many people who are sure they would abort suddenly decide to have the baby. Too many people who see themselves as rigorously anti-abortion suddenly decide to abort. Hypotheticals are all we have, so we discuss them, but I always like to start by saying no one actually has a clue until reality strikes. 2. This matters for my son. We did not have a pre-natal diagnosis. We wanted a baby. We think we would have kept the baby even… Read more »
As someone that cares about fathers rights, I’d NEVER want forced birth to be an option and it sickens me. Fathers rights should only be stuff like equal custody (if there is no abuse), right to opt out, etc. But I think of them as parental rights too, I want full 100% access to abortion for women/transmen/whoever needs it and top notch sex education + access to great quality contraceptives + hope society changes so we don’t need so much damn money to raise a child and aren’t put in poverty because of that.
John Schtoll says:
July 29, 2013 at 1:40 pm
David: Can you name a single reproductive right that men have in western society (and I am talking legal right here) that allows them to legally control when they become a parent.
Good question, and I think, there is also no right to legally control NOT to become a parent either.
I am not sure however how this is really the problem. I see it more as a legal problem that you might be tricked or even be forced to become a parent even if you are not the biological father.
Hi David Perry
I am surprised at what happens on this thread.
It makes me wonder how large percentage of adult American men do not oppose that society changes toward wore equality between the sexes?
Why is it a problem that women get a good education or learn a trade so they can better support themselves economically and are free to choose who they want to marry?
Iben, While reading your male rant, you mentioned education. Thanks for mentioning education. With all this talk about patriarchy and privilege being so pervasive in our culture, I wanted to take the time to point this out to you. 2010: University enrollment rates ratio: 1.45: 1 – that’s female to male by the way. To put that in perspective that is just 7 males for over 10 females enrolled in college. That number is absolutely staggering. 2010: college graduation rates- Females: 38% Males: 26% To put that in perspecrive that means for every 13 million boys graduate college, there are… Read more »
The male:female numbers in higher ed are very troubling. The question is what is driving them and what do they mean. Earlier in the comments, we had a long discussion about the ways that calcified gender roles in fact make it harder for boys to succeed in school. The patriarchal system praises male action, physicality, disobedience to authority (especially female authority in the classroom). There are two solutions – one, remake the American educational system to reward diverse behavior types. Two, break down those gender roles to enable boys to focus on reading, listening, and participation in educational communities –… Read more »
But David who said that men are the real oppressed ones? Kashdoller simply pointed out ways in which boys are lagging behind in education and as far as I can tell there was no intent to say that that lag somehow proves that boys are the ones that are really oppressed.
Ok, good. Very reasonable. I assumed it was part of the larger argument. My mistake.
If the “patriarchy” is so pervasive in society then boys should be doing better in school than girls. You say “The patriarchal system praises male action, physicality, disobedience to authority (especially female authority in the classroom).” If that’s the case then boys who are considered troublemakers in school should be the ones doing best. Of course that’s not true but it doesn’t matter when you need to blame the imaginary “patriarchy” for something. Then you go on to say that boys need to be made to learn like girls which doesn’t make any sense if “the patriarchy” is rewarding boys… Read more »
You’re twisting what I said to suit your pre-conceptions. I’ve got to write something else for a bit, so I think I’ll just leave it.
And yet , until very recently, males graduated at higher rates and levels from all levels of education, again, you are ignoring history, OR are you claiming that patriarchy has only existed for the last 25 or so years.
John – I don’t like your tone. It’s been aggressive since the start. I am going to stop responding to you now. If you would like to continue, change your tone. There is a way through this towards a synthesis that both confirms my thesis and acknowledges your concerns, but only if you want to work in functional discussion. Think about what it is that you want to accomplish here.
How are you conferring tone from written words.
It’s been proven there is a pro-female bias in quite a few female teachers which ended up with girls getting better grades than boys. There are other issues such as more feminized styles of learning, not taking into account different styles of learning, sexism against boys in school such as being called out MORE than girls for bad behaviour. For example I had plenty of classes where both boys n girls were talking too much, the boys got called out for it far more. There is also issue with reading comprehension in girls maturing faster than boys. There are also… Read more »
“It’s been proven” and “quite a few” means you have to cite. Or at least that I’d like you to do so.
It’s interesting to think about the flip – more women rising, more boys failing, but the gendered hierarchy remaining more or less intact in the adult world. What levers would have to be pulled to achieve equality throughout the process.
“It’s interesting to think about the flip – more women rising, more boys failing, but the gendered hierarchy remaining more or less intact in the adult world. What levers would have to be pulled to achieve equality throughout the process.” One issue is that to reach the very top, AFAIK it’s usually people 40-50 years olds and I think the flip occured maybe 10-20 years ago, it might still be reaching the very top (as in students who graduated after the flip still are rising the ranks, so check in 10 years:P). There are a lot of other issues also… Read more »
Hi Kashdoller
My thesaurus defines rant this way:
1a loud bombastic declamation expressed with strong emotion
2pompous or pretentious talk or writing
Verb
May I please ask for some good examples of my ” ranting ” on this thread?
Iben I do not see this aggression towards feminism or Mr.Perry you speak.What I read from men who disagree with him is the are reasonable criticisms regarding his positions.I think there is frustration because femisnism/ists position themselves as blameless arbiters of truth and justice,for everyone.Time and again legitimate criticisms of feminism are aggressively brushed off as inconsequential.I don’t sense that anyone is paranoid or afraid of Mr.Perry or of feminism.Feminism has a public relations problem it refuses to acknowledge or address.A political organization wishing to encourage membership typically behaves quite differently than does this type of feminism.These critics of Mr.Perry’s… Read more »
There are lots of points in these comments where I say – that’s a good point, or, that makes sense, or admit fault in my logic or my rhetoric. Now – can you point to a comparable moment from any MRA in this thread? I’ve read every comment and don’t remember one, but I’d be delighted to be wrong. “I was a SAHD 28 years ago and was treated VERY poorly by women in general.” Sorry about that. The solution to this problem is more feminism. But we’ve already covered that and I know you aren’t going to be convinced,… Read more »
Mr. Perry. I am not saying that patriarchy doesn’t exist. I disagree to the the extent that you say it colors the world in its own image.As a historian you must know that the lame founding fathers did not for a moment believe that the common man was their equal in any significant way.This is clearly spelled out in the Constituion.And of course blackmen and Natives were not even considered human beings
Totally valid. I disagree for reasons I have tried to spell out, but I know it’s contested ground. That’s why I wrote the essay. You can call me David, by the way. I’m 40, but Mr. Perry remains my father.
Hi Ogwriter 🙂 I live in a society where trust is a core value. It is the glue that keeps us together. If I got pregnant with a man I was in a love relationship with,and his first reaction was to ask for a paternity test,then that relationship would be in deep trouble,maybe damaged for ever. Not that I would refuse it,but it would be hard to stay in a relationship with a man that suddenly saw me as dishonest ,sleeping around and trying to push an other mans child onto him to support economically and emotionally. The climate between… Read more »
Typo David
I ment to write that I hope you one day will write a little pice about the Vikings.
Medieval slavery was not race based. The association of slave with skin color is largely a product of the early modern period.
http://www.amazon.com/Slavery-Medieval-Scandinavia-Historical-Publications/dp/0300041217 is a good book on it.
Hi David
I was not thinking that is was.
The thing is my fathers family are so dark complexted that I wonder where they come from originally. That is why I wonder if the Vikinigs also went across the Mediterranian. But I can read all about this some where else. Than you for answering.
Aha, sorry. My students often get confused about that.
There was some contact with the Mediterranean, but not in any sustained sort of way, pre-1000 or so. As the Vikings established a presence in the Byzantine empire, though, there was more exchange. I don’t know enough about the genetics to say how skin tone might move through generations.
There are many points of view in this thread.
I have asked this question of feminists many times before who claim that western women are oppressed and have yet to get an answer ,so once again here goes.
1) Name one right (in western society) than men enjoy , that women do not.
For the sake of clarity, I will give you one right in western society that women enjoy that men don’t.
1) Women have the right to control if and when they become a parent
John, I don’t think you are interested in discussion. I believe my essay clearly outlines the ways that patriarchy functions in both overt and covert ways. If that doesn’t convince you, then I doubt a discussion here will. Given the issue in Texas, though, your example of women having control over their becoming parents is counter-factual to reality. Anyway, just remember to wear a condom, and you’ll be fine. Have a great day.
David: Can you name a single reproductive right that men have in western society (and I am talking legal right here) that allows them to legally control when they become a parent. Because your statement earlier that says “Wear a condom you will be fine” is (as you would put it) counter factual to reality. Wearing a condom does not , and has never given a man the legal right to control if or when he becomes a parent.
You’re ignoring the persistent and vile attempts to take away female reproductive freedom. I can only assume you are doing it on purpose.
Do you feel men ought to be able to order women to get abortions? Do you feel men ought to be able to impregnate women without responsibility? Do you feel it is unjust that men cannot do that?
I do not.
Hi John Schtoll
Do you want control over women’s bodies and their sexually ?
Should men have total control over women’s bodies is that what you try to say?
I obviously can’t answer for John but that doesn’t seem to be what he wants. It looks like John is asking about men and their control over becoming a parent. Earlier today I was reading an article in which a man has been court ordered to pay support for a child that DNA testing has proven that he is not the biological father of, even though the biological father is trying to be an active parent in the child’s life. If a man can’t even be relieved of financial responsibilities when its proven the responsible man is another party AND… Read more »
Hi Danny That is weird and unfair I agree. Our laws are not like that,but I am not a lawyer so I can tell you all details. I am not sure what happens here if a DNA test show the child has another father than a woman’s husband. In situations like that men are social fathers and love the child anyway. But if a single man dream of becoming a parent but has now partner that want to start a family with him ,he can adopt a child. Here we have the serious discussion about use of surrogate mothers. Gay… Read more »
Hi Iben, I am not sure what happens here if a DNA test show the child has another father than a woman’s husband. In situations like that men are social fathers and love the child anyway. Except when they don’t. I guess it largely depends on how old the kid is and/or how long the man has been the social father. And maybe if he has had reason to suspect all along that things weren’t ahet they seemed to be. One thing is that the legal process for determining the father of a child is heavily skewed in the mother’s… Read more »
Iben: Also, it is rude to answer a question with a question.
BUT I will not be rude and I will answer yoursl.
NO, I don’t believe men should be able to control womens bodies , but I do believe they should be able to control their own bodies and the results of those bodies, iow, if a woman gets pregnant , the man should have the ability to ‘opt out’ , iow, he should be able to choose whether to become a legal parent (notice I said legal parent)
John Schtoll says: July 29, 2013 at 1:40 pm David: Can you name a single reproductive right that men have in western society (and I am talking legal right here) that allows them to legally control when they become a parent. Because your statement earlier that says “Wear a condom you will be fine” is (as you would put it) counter factual to reality. Wearing a condom does not , and has never given a man the legal right to control if or when he becomes a parent. It seems to me that men’s reproductive rights are somewhat linked to… Read more »
Men have no reproductive rights after conception. If a woman gets pregnant, she (in many places) can abort and some she can even give the child up, no questions asked from what I’ve heard? That act of allowing women to have abortion means 100% of the choice of whether a child is born is hers, he has 0% say in the matter. Her actions 100% directly affect whether he will need to pay child support for 18 years. Men deserve the right to opt out of parenthood, if a woman wants to have a child and doesn’t respect the desires… Read more »
This is interesting. So your attitude is that a man has consensual sex with a woman and she gets pregnant. He then has the right to say – you can abort or not, but if you have the baby, I will not pay a dime of child support. I see a lot of problems with that scenario. I know that pressure for abortion actually happens a lot (like that Tennessee GOP congressman who slept with his patients), of course. But I think your idea leads to a dangerous place.
A dangerous place why? That people should be able to choose if they are parents, and that conception shouldn’t be the only deciding factor? By opt out I mean he has absolutely ZERO say after he opts out, no control over the child, to him that child is simply another child and he cannot have any say in the upbringing as it’s fully her child. But I would also ensure that couples can adopt out easily because a born-child deserves the best home they can get, and not all people are ready for children or could handle it. 10 years… Read more »
I believe that if you have sex, you have to accept that there is a chance you will become a parent. I am sure that there are a lot of ways in which custody laws, child-support laws, and so forth could be improved. But the fundamental equation is – have sex = risk child. The situations where a woman is pressured into deciding whether to abort or not based on financial exigencies is abhorrent to me. It is not, perhaps, fair to the man. But it may well be just. I freely admit to complexities here that are beyond my… Read more »
“have sex = risk child” So you’re pro-life? anti-abortion? If a woman has sex, she risks having a child? Or are you simply attempting to justify a double standard? “The situations where a woman is pressured into deciding whether to abort or not based on financial exigencies is abhorrent to me.” Are you seriously saying that you feel forcing a woman to decide if she can afford a child on her own, without extorting money from a man, is abhorrent to you? What ever happened to women being independent and strong. With not needing a man? Why is saying “if… Read more »
Hi Mark Neil Why do I sense a lot of paranoia here? I am surprised that some men are so scared of women and see them as wanting to harm and exploit them. This means you must be better at picking your partners……. And what about the CHILD and the child’s needs? The aggression here against David and his views makes me wonder if he also scares many men. A bright,well educated man that also is a stay at home dad.a caretaker of child and at the same times covers topic from feminism,to jihad,to the Viking world,the situation in Turkey… Read more »
I was going to answer this until your last sentence, which is baiting and hostile. Bye.
Iben – I’m not actually a stay at home dad. I am the primary parent, but I have a full-time job (about 60 hrs a week most weeks). It’s just a job with some flexibility in terms of hours and we use that, especially given my son’s therapeutic needs.
I think Mark – Men have no responsibility if they impregnate a woman unless they want to and Tom – womb-to-tomb pro-lifer, should go have a discussion.
“Why do I sense a lot of paranoia here?” I suspect it is because attempting to project an unstable emotional state onto someone in the first sentence of a reply makes it easy for any readers who are sympathetic to your point of view to dismiss the person you are painting as paranoid. It’s a form of ad hom attacking, sort of poisoning the well. “I am surprised that some men are so scared of women and see them as wanting to harm and exploit them.” Why are you so surprised? Feminists have been planting that fear in women for… Read more »
I’ll look forward to you and Tom reaching synthesis. Link to the essay here please when you write it. I cannot fathom the abnegation of responsibility among men that you call for. I can see how it seems fair to you. But it is not just. It is not responsible. I believe that when you are a man and you choose to have sex, you have to take responsibility for your actions. That’s part of what being a good man is about. Is it fair? I dunno, it seems like the burden of unplanned parenthood lies heavy on both parties.… Read more »
“But it is not just. It is not responsible.” I suspect Tom feels the same way about abortion. I know I certainly feel the same way about granting women full, 100% choice without ever risking 100% responsibility. You’ve repeatedly called the idea of legal parental surrender (what we’re talking about here) as dangerous, but I have yet to hear you explain why it’s “dangerous”. Ironically, in one of your other replies, you said you would beg and plead, offer to take 100% legal responsibility (an option not available under current laws, but amusingly, exactly what I am advocating for), if… Read more »
Your comments on women’s experience of becoming pregnant, it seems to me, demeans them. Your sarcasm angers me. I’m done here. You’ve made your case, so I trust you will likewise move on. Thank you.
@Iben, ““Why do I sense a lot of paranoia here?”” “I am surprised that some men are so scared of women and see them as wanting to harm and exploit them. This means you must be better at picking your partners…….” “Approximately 10.4% (or an estimated 11.7 million) of men in the United States reported ever having an intimate partner who tried to get pregnant when they did not want to or tried to stop them from using birth control, with 8.7% having had an intimate partner who tried to get pregnant when they did not want to or tried… Read more »
Kari: I am going to answer this a caveat, I am talking the US and Canada here since I don’t know where you are located. Unfortunately you are incorrect when you state that pre-conception that mens and womens rights are the same and remember I am talking legally here. Men don’t actually have the right to “SAY NO”, not when it comes to being a parent, conceiving a child and/or reproduction. There is plenty of case law where a man was raped, duped, drugged, plied with alcohol or plain had his sperm stolen against his will and was still held… Read more »
John – I’m in the US. Pre-conception: “raped, duped, drugged, plied with alcohol or plain had his sperm stolen” Those sound like crimes to me (rape, fraud, theft, assault). So if this went unpunished, that’s a miscarriage of justice, in my mind. Crime brings a difficult twist to the reproductive rights conversation on several levels and changes the rights/responsibilities calculus. I don’t think anyone should ever be forced or tricked into sex/conception. Post-conception and pre-birth: I’d like us to take a small step back from the assumption that women are in 100% control. John wrote “1) Women have the right… Read more »
Let me add this after “life is messy”… The law can only accomplish so much. Whether we’re talking about broad-brush legislation or case-specific judicial decisions, the law is limited in its ability to heal human conflict. Reproductive disputes, in particular, seem to cut to the very core of our lives and our selves. Concepts of fairness and rights are, in some sense, too shallow to fully address the depth of these conflicts and the consequences of any decision. And in discussing the comparative rights and responsibilities of the parents we haven’t even touched on the interests of the child or… Read more »
Many issues of abortion seem to stem from the financial costs. Currently in Australia our bills are rising fast, in the last year electricity has shot up 20% or more and it’s done similar for a few years. Insurance went from 1000 to 8000 for some due to major flooding in South Qld + a few big cyclones. The cost of food is steadily rising too, far more than CPI I believe. Cost to have a child is roughly 200k a year, which is around 11.1k per year per child. That’s a HUGE amount of money! Infact that is what… Read more »
Hi Archy Why do you think a woman will want to abuse you,break the law ( in Sweden it is a crime) and trick you into making her pregnant against your will Archy? I know it happens,but I have never understood how anyone can do a thing like that. I hope you are 100% honest about your attitudes and views about this Achy and tell your future girlfriend about it before you make love that you support men’s rights to “opt out”. Women can become pregnant even if they use contraceptives as you well know. Do you have political parties… Read more »
Just so we’re clear, John, I agree that women and men are technically equal before the law in western society. Doesn’t that make it interesting that women are in fact so systematically discriminated against in so many ways?
The more I think about it though, the more amazed I am at the cognative blindness evinced by your parent statement. I think I’ll go write a blog about it.
What ways are they systematically “discriminated against in so many ways?”
David If what I argue resembles MRA talking points its because they are catching up with me. As I said I was a femnist at a very young age and have spent over 40 years formulating and adjusting my beleifs. My views are a combination of research on feminism and its impact on culture, lived experinces and common sense infused with intelligence.I have six sisters and I grew up in one of the cradles of modern feminism, during the second awakening, At which time I began to experience much of what I complain about. My views are well informed not… Read more »
Noted.
A simple question: How feminism is good for men too?
Good question, though one I address in the essay briefly, and to do it justice would require a dozen more essays. Fortunately, if you google, “How is feminism good for men,” you’ll find a dozen essays, some of which I think are well written (I’ll let you guess which). Feminism is good for men because patriarchy is bad for men. Now there are men who deny the existence of patriarchy. As you can see in this thread, I have trouble having productive conversations with them. There are also men who like patriarchy, who see it as the natural order things.… Read more »
David you speak as though patriarchy is a ‘fact’ but in reality it is a theory and it is a theory not based on science but on faith. As an example of that faith , you eluded to earlier in this thread that the reason that women get custody is because patriarchy says that ‘child care is womens work’. Of course you must have faith to believe this when the evidence is clear that before a noted feminist came along and pushed the ‘tender years doctrine’ it was actually men who got custody , most if not all the time… Read more »
I disagree with you John. But I’m tired of arguing against the same talking points from the committed MRAs, as it’s pointless. Have a great day!
Is patriarchy proven or still a theory? Is it a patriarchy or a kyriarchy? (Genuinely curious)
I don’t know what it would mean to “prove” patriarchy. Like egalitarianism I have no problem with the concept of kyriarchy. In my essay, more or less successfully, I tried to explain why I focused specifically on patriarchy. YMMV.
I think I’ve caught up on all your comments now Archy. Let me know if I missed something. I’m going to bed now. 🙂
I use kyriarchy and focus more on intersectionality vs gender itself and also patriarchy gets way too much drama attached so it’s easier to use kyriarchy and get your message across. Men overall have more power but class heavily boosts that power, the average male n female are far more close in equality from what I can see. The elite men (and even elite women) can enact conscription n send men (and women too in some countries) to their death for instance, so privilege varies a lot during peace and wartime where female privilege rises significantly if they are in… Read more »
What is “YMMV?”
Your mileage may vary. It’s a way of saying, in internet shorthand, that this is how I see the issue, but I understand that others may come to different conclusions.
Thanks for the clarification
David, out of curiosity, who are the MRA’s here?
I believe Tom, Yohann, and Danny, and some people I forget ,have explicitly embraced the MRA label.
Others have embraced MRA talking points and positions without the labels.
Quite a few of us seem to be a pro-feminist pro-mra anti-extremist mix too who don’t use labels, both males n females. I’d say there are more like that then those who identify as MRA.
I do not know what makes you think that I have never read any essay on the Internet in praise of feminism. In fact I have read most of them and would like to say without hesitation that they are just waste of bytes. I wanted to know your opinion on that matter. I have read quite a few books on sociology that defines patriarchy as the social system in which father or eldest male is the head of family. Probably, definition of patriarchy in feminist dictionary is something different. I did not expect “Feminism is good for men because… Read more »
I was speaking of my essay that spent about 1000 words articulating the various ways that patriarchy could be perceived in operation over the last few weeks. One of the challenges of patriarchy is that it’s hard to perceive. The other challenge is that lots of people, people in this comment thread, are DEEPLY invested in not seeing it. Such is the way of these things. I’m glad you’ve read some books. If you are genuinely interested, I highly recommend Bennett’s work, “History Matters.” You won’t like it though. I find your characterization of the specifics of my answer to… Read more »
Sir, I am thankful to you for being patient with me unlike some other feminist writers and recommending the book ” History Matters,” by Judith Bennett. You pointed that patriarchy is hard to perceive and lot of people on the comment thread are deeply invested in not seeing.it. I do not know what kind of microscope you are using to see patriarchy which others do not have. As for the point that they are deeply invested in not seeing it, it can backfire on you, May be you are too invested in the concept óf patriarchy to see it everywhere… Read more »
I want to replace patriarchy with equality. I believe the road to that path lies through feminism. Obviously others here do not agree.
I’m guessing … India? I can’t speak to your family, but there are plenty of gender problems there. I’ll leave it at that, as perhaps you come from somewhere else.
You guessed it right. I was born and brought up in India, but I have completed my higher education till doctorate in the U.S. and am presently living in Europe. I have lived more than half my life in Western world. So I have direct knowledge of the situation in the West. In strict legal terms, all citizens in a free and democratic country are equal, Men and women are equal in all spheres, Feminists want a perfect symmetry between men and women which is impossible given the biological differences. Such attempts would be a waste of resources and can… Read more »
1. India is a deeply repressive society in some ways for women, many of them tied up in class and caste. To go into detail here would both leave my field of expertise and derail this thread, but the notion that India is a land of gender equity is … not credible. 2. I am a feminist. I do not want perfect symmetry. I want equality. This is typical of third-wave feminists. 3. Go back and read my essay again, if you are interested. You will see that we are not operating on strict legal terms. But one thing this… Read more »
I have never claimed that my home country is a land of gender equity. I never held that misconception and do not know how you came to that conclusion. I just wanted to point out that social class of a person is more important than the gender of the concerned person. Women have achieved high political offices in many countries of Asia, simply because they were daughters or widows of some powerful leader. It proves that those patriarchal societies are not inherently bad for women. Women too have benefitted from them. As for you second point, that if I am… Read more »
Um, yeah. I’m really not having any trouble here. I just know that when someone’s worldview depends on not perceiving something, no amount of data can persuade them, so why bang my head against the wall. I thought your claims about India were interesting.
Come back when you’ve read the Bennett book and we’ll talk again.
I associate myself as a feminist when it is defined as the “radical notion that women are human beings too”. Let me ask you this, though: 1. Were you also upset that the ‘crowing announcers’ also over looked two male winners: Jonathan Marry and Jamie Murray. Both male winners. If not, why not? 2. Are you as vocal when males are judged by looks (numerous times in today’s media). If not, why not? 3.”Finally, I am a feminist because it’s good for men too.”. If you replied no to either of the above, then you are a hypocrite. I also… Read more »
Charlie – Thanks for commenting. You crammed a lot of stuff in this comment which makes it difficult to respond. 1. I reject the mode – “If you don’t do exactly what I say, then [insert insult].” In the future, I will not respond to that kind of hostile, baiting, commentary. I hope we’re clear on that. But for now, I am assuming you genuinely want to engage on these issues. 2. I didn’t know about Marry and Murray until now. I was drawn into the Wimbledon issue due to the twitterstorm over the Bartoli comments, and then noticed the… Read more »
It’s interesting to see this conversation become a meta-conversation – shifting from talking to each other to talking about how we talk to each other. So far, it seems to me, most comments have been pretty respectful on this thread and not gotten too mired in personal attacks, name-calling and defensiveness, which I’ve seen happen on other threads. It’s a shame that there is still so much tension, and perhaps that can’t be avoided when discussing these topics, but one of the things that makes me proud to participate in GMP (and mention this site to other people) is that… Read more »
Just for the record, I’m deleting feminist bashing. If people want to deal with the contents of my essay, no matter how critically, I’m delighted to engage in discussion. If people want to take specific models of feminism and critique them, I’m delighted to engage in discussion.
Lots of places on the web to bash feminists. This thread is not one of them.
Hi David Perry
Can you recommend some good review article of the main interesting,or let’s say the most influencal models of feminism?
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/feminism-topics/ is a perfectly reasonable encyclopedia article.
Iben says: July 26, 2013 at 12:13 pm the blog you can read below is hateful blog by a famous or infamous MRA in Norway: http://eivindberge.blogspot.com/?m=1 I think Eivind Berge’s views are very different from American MRA? http://eivindberge.blogspot.jp/2013/05/lex-berge-is-in-effect.html?m=0 Thanks for posting this link to that crazy blog, I think I will post this in our MGTOW Forum for discussion. As far as I can see, luckily there is not much activity going on with his blog, only 6 threads for 2013 up to date – MRA? More likely an outsider, an idiot who has a computer and internet connection. I… Read more »
Hey guys,
I think we’ve moved away from the core discussions related to this essay. Thanks.
David Perry says: July 27, 2013 at 11:25 am Hey guys, I think we’ve moved away from the core discussions related to this essay. Thanks. The titel of this thread is: The Straight Married White American Male Feminist Manifesto To compare USA with other countries – for example Norway – is for sure not off-topic. About ‘male feminist’ – so far I know only about male feminists in USA. I do not know anything about men who call themselves ‘male feminists’ in Continental EU, nor in Asia. Do you have any reference to ‘male feminists’ outside of native English speaking… Read more »
Yohann – I just meant the part of the thread where you deviated to Brevik and such. Obviously MRAs should not be judged by Brevik. While one could have a discussion about the ways that extremists use or abuse philosophies, that’s not what this essay or discussion was above. I called myself a white male feminist because I am a white male feminist and I am talking about power and privilege. But since you fundamentally deny the existence of anything that I am talking about, clearly you are not persuadable. One of my approaches to the internet is not to… Read more »
“But until I see some demonstration of empathy, and believe me, I feel lots of empathy for the real parts of the MRA complaint (which has been most of what they bring here, as Tom and Yohann and Danny are very practiced at making GMP threads about them and their needs) – but until I see some empathy, I feel their contributions to discussion are limited and very much fall into the trollish category. Did you know that I have received multiple emails from people, mostly women, who want to say things about my essay but are afraid to come… Read more »
Tom…If you sir are a troll then,most certainly,a middle ground doesn’t exist! You have for months presented balanced,thoughtful,well written responses on a number of issues.You have done this consistently and now you are considered a troll.I too,am done with this thread.in fact,this name calling shouldn’t even be allowed.
That should have said “link”
Yohan, thank you for sharing that ling. Amazing information
ogwriter says: July 26, 2013 at 1:19 pm David ….Avoidance is not an answer or response to my comments….You are doing exactly-ignoring well founded criticism of feminism-…Why? Exactly my own impression. 1 – I was asking Mr. Perry to take a look at this academic study which is about men/boys as victims, but he refused even to click on the link. But what is really wrong with this study? Can anybody explain? http://epubs.utah.edu/index.php/ulr/article/view/484/352 2 – Further, Mr. Perry is telling me I lost my privileges, but he cannot tell me which privileges. I think I never had any privilege in… Read more »
Yohan we all have privileges in a way or another, even if we are not aware of them, this is true for women, men and minorities.
Yes. Male privilege does exist and there is no denying that. However there is a problem where it’s used as a shield to prevent discussion on certain topics. If someone doesn’t like what a guy is saying just accuse him of trying hold onto male privilege. Its a nice way of dismissing what he has to say and putting him on the defensive.
Perhaps the reason some do not respond here is that they don’t want to debate and see a point of view that many men have. I have, on countless occasions observed TGMP boast as to how they are interested in hearing what men have to say. It doesn’t appear that you’re actually interested in what we have to say unless you can refute what’s being said.
Accordingly, I will more then likely stop following this thread … beating a dead horse. Have a nice day
David I couldn’t find, outside of my comments,any other references to the points I bring up.Avoidance is not an answer or response to my comments,which deserve some answers from you.You are doing exactly-ignoring well founded criticism of feminism-as I described in my previous comment. Why?Again,how can feminism claim to be a leader for equality when it isn’t free of inequality itself?
David I couldn’t find outside of my comments,any other references to the points I bring up.Avoidance is not an answer or response to my comments,which deserve some answers from you.You are doing exactly-ignoring well founded criticism of feminism-as I described in my previous comment. Why?
Because I know you cannot be convinced to rethink your worldview, especially if the examples in the essay had no effect on you. There are about 4 people like you in this thread responsible for 90% of the comments. I get a lot of emails saying, “Great essay, I’d comment, but don’t want those guys jumping all over me, but keep up the good work.” If you read my essay and your first response is, “But men are victims too!,” then you didn’t get the essay; and why should you, it runs directly counter to your epistemology, and you can’t… Read more »
with all due respect David, most of the guys typing here are much more open minded and egalitarian than most feminist I have met, both online and offline. And disagreement is the key for growth, because it shows you different perspectives of the same topic. You cant neither grow or go wiser without disagreement. Labeling the opposing view as hate speak (no you didnt do that, just speaking in general) or rabid MRA not only is wrong, but goes directly against the goal of the topic in question. Debating is better than lecturing and dialogues are better than monologues. Finally,… Read more »
Jezebel? You’re going to source jezebel? Are you sure you want to do that?
http://jezebel.com/294383/have-you-ever-beat-up-a-boyfriend-cause-uh-we-have?tag=gossipdomesticdisturbances
Jezebel is about as credible as the National Enquirer
You can either read the article and argue with the findings on that particular essay, or not. But simply slagging Jezebel is a mistake. It’s packed with garbage, but I thought that essay, judging it on its content rather than its domain name, was worth reading.
Some comments are missing.
Missing privilege? I really don’t know what privilege this could be. I cannot miss a privilege which I am not aware of that I have it. Maybe you could explain – do you have a list of my possible privileges so I can check it out?
It is true that I was badly treated by females in the past, but this is long time ago and nobody cares about boys anyway.
You think, men/boys cannot be victims of malicious females? It’s either a lie or the fault of the ‘patriarchy’, never within the responsibility of women?
I did not say that men can’t be victims of malicious females. I said that if we want to engage in systemic critiques and fixes, the solution inclines to more feminism, not less. The norms that drive men to feel unable to report victimization from women is a direct result of the patriarchal system of gender norms, in which men cannot reveal that they’ve experienced weakness, especially at the hands of women. That is patriarchy; not feminism. At any rate, Yohann, I think we’ve hashed this out enough for today. I’ll be happy to come and comment on your next… Read more »
David Always,always….ALWAYS feminism is presented as if women are only victims and never perparatrators.OR even if there is an admission that woman on woman violence is statistically as prevalent as “common” rape and domestic violence,it is done quietly and never debated in the open by women or feminists.Add to that woman on man violence AND child abuse and it is clear that women are violent.Should I bring up the long history of racism and classicism?But feminism have a consistent narrative that either ignores and or downplays these things. Intersectionality,as a remedy for racism, is nothing more than a distraction,it is… Read more »
Thanks for commenting. We’ve always been through this in the thread. Have a great day!