Wherever they are, Julie Gillis writes, we need to make them clearer.
This post is tagged NO HOSTILITY. This is a new policy that will be applied to some posts at the author’s request. NO HOSTILITY posts will be moderated more than usual: comments might not show up right away or may be deleted if they are in violation of our commenting policy. This post also has a TRIGGER WARNING for talk of rape and sexual consent.
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This is not about rape. Well, not exactly. I admit to a little compassion and/or battle fatigue from the past few days and weeks. But I’m determined to keep focused on the path towards supporting all humans as we struggle with this together.
Rape is a difficult subject. It can bring out the worst fears in all of us, some odd and horrible mixture of shame, guilt, fear, anger, and probably a few other things thrown in for good measure. It’s the deepest part of our shadow side. It is a terrible thing, this shadow and it shows us the worst part of human nature.
Rape touches on the worst of that shadow–to take something so personal and turn it, twist it, change something so amazing, sex, into something fearful, forever. Because it’s so horrible is why it is vital to be able to accurately define it, identify it, report it, and eradicate it.
That being said, this article isn’t a post about rape precisely. It’s certainly not about rape that occurs in time of war, prison, or torture or systematized forms. This post isn’t about familial abuse, though that seems to be connected more to what I’m talking about. Neither of those angles are what I am addressing in this piece. They are real, they are extremely problematic, and they do need focus.
What I’m focused on at the moment are the posts and comments I’ve seen of more personal moments: date rapes, confusing nights, mixed messages. Was it rape? Was it sexual assault? What if I’m a man and I felt really bad about the experience? What if I’m a lesbian and I should have said no to her, does it count?
As noted, the FBI classification is causing lots of conversations. The recent change makes us lay people (read: non-legal experts) ask questions: What is rape, how do we define it, what’s the difference between sexual assault and rape and sexual misconduct. What makes female on male envelopment count as a different kind of statistic than male on female penetration? When is it bad sex and bad choices, and when is it much more nefarious?
Some of those questions are being dealt with elsewhere, so I am going to share my thoughts on an angle I think is worth examining.
Sexuality and Communication
Here are some some vignettes from my own life. Because I’m a woman and, at the time, was dating men, these little stories are told from my POV, and are heterosexual in nature. But I bet any of us, after reading the stories could share some of our own from any orientation and gender combination.
1) 1988 — I briefly began dating a man and we had reached a point of serious making out on our sexual progression. We went to a movie and he drove me home and we made out in the front of the car. Things got steamy and he stretched out over me and though I froze up and mumbled to stop, he engaged in frottage to fruition on my leg, looked embarrassed, I went inside and we didn’t date or speak again.
2) 1989 — I was at a theater festival and all the interns were sexually active. I went to a boy’s room one night. He hadn’t shown much interest, but neither had he rejected me. He let me in. We fooled around and didn’t quite have PIV but we did get naked. He didn’t talk to me the next day and avoided me.
3) 1990 — I met a young man in a city about an hour away from mine while I was visiting a friend. We hit it off and I invited him to come visit. He did though when he arrived he seemed different than when I’d met him in person. We hung out and even though he knew other folks in town, he wanted to stay at my apartment. He was sexually assertive with me and I grew uncomfortable with where things were going, yet there he was in my apartment. I freaked out, said I didn’t want to have sex. He slept on the couch.
4) 1992 — I was a party with some new friends in Seattle, where I’d recently moved. I met a guy, flirted with him and decided to take him home with me, though my friends seemed really worried about it. We got into things, but it was really no fun for me. Things weren’t going well, chemistry-wise, let’s say. He, though, was motivated to have a good night and made it clear he wanted his. I remember, very distinctly, a moment where I calculated the situation; alone, no roommates, late at night. Ask him to leave or take 5 minutes and get him off in order to get him out. I chose the latter option.
What did all of those vignettes have in common?
There was not one bloody word of communication about wants, desires, limits, boundaries, ideas, hopes between me or any of those men. In all the scenarios, I see both of us at some level of fault — no direct communication of yes or no, no curious conversation about what the night or relationship might hold, no “no harm no foul” card was offered from either party in any of the examples.
In the first scenario, we never talked about (for instance) our religious differences pertaining to sex, issues around my virginity or if we wanted to keep dating.
Second, at the theater festival, I was focused on getting the guy and not paying attention to his signals. He didn’t say no and he did participate. I have no idea what he really wanted.
In the third scenario, I didn’t talk to the man about finding additional places to stay, that I wasn’t sure if I was ready for sex, he didn’t relay any information to me about his goals.
In the final story, I made assumptions about my safety without talking to him. I didn’t make decisions that were in my best interest and I didn’t have any idea at all what his actual feelings were.
I don’t consider any of the above situations rape, sexual assault, or actual danger of being in sexual assault. At the time, and still, I see those situations as really nights of immature sexual behavior by people with little to no skills about how to talk about sex, about how to communicate and own their own sexual desires and boundaries. I see individuals making choices without any structural support in their past that would have given them better skills, to have better sex. Or not to have sex at all.
Again, focusing only on people in the dating and mating scene, I wonder at times if all the very valuable stats, all the important anti-rape programs, all the Take Back The Night movements (for men, women, trans, and any sexual orientation) will do systemic good at all if there isn’t also a complete systemic overhaul about how we communicate about sexual health, sexual pleasure, bodily autonomy, sexual agency and until we learn to truly speak to each other about sex. I still think there is something bigger and deeper that needs to be addressed concurrently in order for those programs to be globally effective for both men and women.
How we begin that process in a country with such conflicted views about sex? In the US alone we have states that focus on total abstinence only sex education and states that promote a comprehensive sex ed program. We have battles over vaccines that could prevent cancer, because we fear that the administration of them will cause our children to have sex. Which they probably will anyway.
We have politics influenced by religion and beliefs, which are often opposition to more secular beliefs. I’ve seen articles focused on returning to decades old Family Values, posts on how feminism causes men to commit less, pieces on how women being sexual active lowers their market value. We’ve got activists focused on legalizing prostitution and we have activists promoting “True Love Waits.”
We have poles within poles within poles and the messages are very, very confusing. We speak, quite literally, different languages about it all. We need interpreters.
If we don’t talk about sex, if we don’t talk about boundaries, if we can’t together define bad sex from immature choices, to sexual assault to rape, how are we to get good stats? How do we inform men and women about rape, assault and the role consent plays in sexuality if we aren’t having clear conversations and mutually agreed upon definitions across the boards? How do we shift sex from poles of “Yes/No” to a continuum of mutually shifting and changing negotiations around sexuality and the sex act, as ClarisseThorn mentioned in her piece earlier this year. You know my position, as I’ve written about it before.
Naysayers will say, and have said to me, that no one will talk like that. That it takes the romance out of seduction. That it’s an impossible mode. Maybe. Maybe that’s the price we have to pay to get the clarity we say we want. Women have to own their desires, wants, and boundaries as clearly as do men. Women need to be able to say yes, men need to be able to say no. Maybe everyone needs classes in how to read body language, how to ask questions, how to use clarifying language in a sexy way. I personally think that class could be kind of fun.
Maybe our western cultural paradigms about sex, sexuality, sexual health, men and women (masculinity and femininity and the narratives connected to each) need some attention before we can figure out how to truly solve issues like date rape, consent, envelopment and how arousal doesn’t equal “yes.”
These things actually are happening, I believe. Concurrently. That’s part of why it’s messy work.
I realize we all come from different perspectives and opinions, some of them at a 180 based on religious, moral and cultural differences. But things don’t seem to be working well out there (std rates, teen pregnancies, ample examples of miscommunication, and more), and I’d rather deal with the differences than ignore the problems.
People are having sex, they don’t all have the same information, skills, and abilities, and there is room for improvement. If sex, pleasure, and connection are what we want (and if abuse, pain, loss, and assault are what we want to avoid), I think we should all work on it together, even if it’s difficult. Even if we speak different languages.
I’ll be posting a piece about intepreting sex in the next few days. Until then, I’d love to hear your comments, stories, and thoughts.
—Photo ctrouper/Flickr
It’s interesting to see how many people here see communication for a hook up as a turn off in most cases. As some one who is both transgender and queer (being trans especially), I cannot avoid communication during a hook up, at least not without potentially getting hurt. And quite honestly, that communication has never been a turn off for either party involved, rather made the sex a lot better. This is true even before I came out as trans! I’d feel awful hooking up with some one who felt obliged to have sex with me, because sex supposed to… Read more »
I thought this was a very mature, intelligent article. There is definitely an idea that open communication during sexytimes somehow ruins the mood. Which is entirely untrue, you just have to word it well. If people were able to communicate, there would be fewer issues I believe. I have been on both sides of this. When I started doing things with my boyfriend, there was one time when I was deeply uncomfortable about something we were doing, but I was unable to say anything, so I was just silent until it was over. Afterwards, I finally got up the courage… Read more »
I once dated a girl who liked to (occasionally) be dominated. We discussed the whole plan ahead of time, but it was a little uncomfortable for me when she acted like she was under duress. For people who want to travel off the beaten path, prior clear communication is essential. She had an interesting idea that maybe there should be some kind of dating school. You’d have to have a diploma before you could date. You had to be able to tell how someone is feeling, if they want something, how to break up in an open civilized manner,… Read more »
This is an awesome article! I’ve been giving this topic a lot of thought, because yes, it can feel very awkward negotiating consent in the heat of the moment. It can be done and it can be sexy, but it might be easier if both parties are feeling playful about it. I have a friend who refuses to take home a woman who’s been drinking (even one), because a) he doesn’t want to potentially hurt a woman who agreed while drunk, but would not have while sober and b) the laws here have stated that being intoxicated negates the ability… Read more »
And what do you think the feminists who lobbied for this change will lobby for now that they have their change? Oh, yeah, the states; and they now have the FBI inflated rape numbers list to use as a weapon, for both law changes and getting more funding.
Im surprised with this article. As an MRA, i found it balanced and fair – which is weird for the GMP. I actually read this and thought – i’d be happy for my (future) son to read this. However, having done the one night stand thing quite a bit in my younger days, i can say that, for me, communication prior to sex is such an awkward and difficult (near impossible) thing to do – without killing the mood. With communication being 90 % non -verbal, our reliance on verbal communication in a court of law “But did she actually… Read more »
So ripping each other’s clothes off while kissing is out of the question unless you’re both ventriloquists, eh? Got ya.
It’s also interesting you only mention men asking to undress a woman. It completely fits with entirely “equal” bill that women can’t rape and are allowed to do to you whatever you want, but men need to verbally ask permission between every step.
Rape is pretty clearly defined with the new FBI definition though, it’s quite simple: If you’re a woman, you can’t rape. You can do whatever you want, including mounting a man’s manhood when he’s unconscious, or even force one down outnumbering him with a group, and you will not have committed a rape; even though you actually raped him. If you’re a man, the question is, did she have a drink? You raped her. Even if she mounted you, and she is the one who seduced you, you raped her. If she mounts you, or even puts your finger, even… Read more »
Au contraire.
I think the “hook up” culture communicates very, very clearly. And while the Mars/Venus difference is true there is no need to put women on a pedestal for it. The hookup culture is not ONLY for men, but serves a component of female biological wiring as well.
Julie, I think you are SO right about this! Kudos for speaking out and being active, and saying things the world needs to hear in such an open and accessible way. I truly enjoyed reading this article and I agreed with every word of it. You are awesome.
Thank you!
This.
In a nutshell, This.
I believe This. And This is virtually all I’ve bitched about for the past half a year. x3
I do not, do not, do not like the state of anti-communicative expectation in today’s dating scene.
The sort of class you describe, about enriching intimate communication, it sounds as though it would be tons of fun, and I’d have a lot to learn. I do feel like we need to move beyond body language though, for early encounters, since it’s so easily misunderstood and misapplied from person to person.
I believe the eradacation of romance by the “hook up” culture is a big reason for the seeming lack of communication today. I truly believe that men and women physches are different (Mars vs Venus, Left Brain vs Right Brain ) however you want to put it. Romance was the middle ground, where we met with love and RESPECT for each other. A place where even if you didn’t totally understand the other or the logic used to get there, you didn’t disparage them. I heard the young guys I work with talk about going to clubs and “getting some”.… Read more »
Au contraire.
I think the “hook up” culture communicates very, very clearly. And while the Mars/Venus difference is true there is no need to put women on a pedestal for it. The hookup culture is not ONLY for men, but serves a component of female biological wiring as well.
Reply
Almost all the young men I work with would agree with you . They absolutly LOVE the “hook up culture” Julie’s article though is focused on “Hook ups gone bad”and seems to ask if there is a better way to communicate. With the absence of romance, maybe the only way is a “pre date” form. I know that sounds out there. Just think that 20 years ago how ridiciolious a pre nup marriage agreement sounded. I remember watching a comedy skit many years ago where a cuy comes to pick up a girl for a date. Before they leavehowever, she… Read more »
I agree with what you’re saying about not putting women on a pedestal. And it’s also important to note that “hook-up culture” occurs with LGBTQ folks too – so if you have two same gendered folk hooking up, just because they’re the same gender that doesn’t mean that they communicate in the same way.
I’m an MRA and not (usually) a fan of this site’s articles. However, I found Julie’s article here (as well as prior ones she has written) mature, balanced, and well-intentioned to both sexes.
I think GMP changed a lot during the last 2 months or so.
The GMP-staff did not give in to feminist demands of which articles and comments should be publish and which not.
It is possible to present now your opinion about certain issues which are important for men, even by the MRA-point of view, regardless if feminists like to read that or not.
Thanks, Aharon.
I found this article interesting and exciting. I enjoy people and ideas that look at the Status Quo and see it as only a small part of bigger possibilities that can be used to grow a better future for everyone. I’m not going to tell Julie how to interpret her own experiences and where they may or may not fall concerning the many different ways that they can be viewed – using many yard sticks defined by different people. She’s a Big Girl and Woman now, and it’s her business. I actually praise her for being willing to use herself… Read more »
This is really fascinating about the Trigger Warming, MediaHpund. I had been specifically asked to put it in a few posts, but will research it more. Let me know what else you find. Thanks.
Every Little Helps Lisa – Every Little Helps! P^)
If me “Eagle Eye” picks up any other issues, I will shout!
I’ve heard that the word trigger warning, actually becomes triggering. Can’t find the link, maybe you’d know more Mediahound? Basically the article was about how trigger warnings themselves were triggering, don’t think about an elephant and what do you think about type of theory.
Archy – this post deals with the subject ““To me, there is no better way to make someone think of the [trauma] than putting up a TRIGGER WARNING that will tell a person to avoid the post because it might make them think of what the TRIGGER WARNING invariably causes them to think about.” Ergo, the trigger warning is its own trigger. Trigger warnings are a falsehood, a contrivance that pretends if triggers can be controlled, the trauma never happened, a National Enquirer-esque headline that screams in all-caps and big red block letters, but, in the end, signifies nothing but… Read more »
I always thought those warnings were weird too. When I first saw them I thought, “Really? How’s that going to help? Is someone going to stop reading at that point? They’d have to stop reading half the blog.” It seemed self serving at best, or grandstanding.
Love your posts! You are so detail oriented and incredibly patient. What wonderful traits!
Me on the other hand discounted “trigger warnings” the first time I heard of them. They reminded me too much of the “walk don’t run” alarms which rather than calm people, actually freak them out.
Here, Hoff Sommers has weighed in on the CDC study and feminism’s blurring the line between sex and rape on an American radio station.
http://www.wgnradio.com/shows/mikemcconnell/wgnam-mike-mcconnell-1-10-12-uncut-b,0,1176295.mp3file?track=rss
All this confusion can be traced back tp the small group of second wave racial feminists at NOW and FMF that run american feminism/campus feminism, and profit from the these ever expanding definitions. The more money they get the more misinformation and rape hysteria they can proliferate among naive idealistic people, and the more of that they do, the more political support and money they can get.
Moderators, once again this poster has “defame[d] feminists as a group” as well as organisations:
“racial feminists at NOW and FMF that run american feminism/campus feminism, and profit from the these ever expanding definitions. The more money they get the more misinformation and rape hysteria they can proliferate among naive idealistic people, and the more of that they do, the more political support and money they can get.”
Does he only get called on it once, then gets to continue to do it with impunity?
@MorgainePendragon He writes ‘radical feminists’ and not ‘all feminists’. What’s wrong with this sentence? He says at NOW and FMF (no idea what is FMF), but he did not say all feminists everywhere worldwide are radical feminists. It should be noticed that radical feminist-friendly websites defame MRAs in a group all the time accusing ALL MRAs to be supportive to rape and assault, for example see link below… http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2007/10/explainer-whats-mra.html What do you think? Is this not ‘defaming ALL MRAs in a group? And let me say, that a certain feminist at NOW was calling late Valerie Solanas, a convicted killer… Read more »
That web page was funny. But I don’t think Shakes is an especially radical web site is it?
I think FMF is Feminist Majority Foundation
http://boston.cbslocal.com/2011/12/02/7-year-old-accused-of-possible-sexual-harassment-for-kicking-boy-in-groin/ 7-Year-Old Accused Of Possible Sexual Harassment For Kicking Boy In Groin December 2, 2011 11:12 PM The first grader’s mother, Tasha Lynch, says she was shocked by the school’s decision. “He’s 7 years old. He doesn’t know anything about sexual harassment,” she said. —————————————————- Check out the video too! Well, this is the newest case I know, and this is not even between a boy and a girl, or between a student and a teacher. Just 2 boys…fighting against each other… Sex education in school? When I read about this case, I think, we better need sex education first… Read more »
I think the system needs a complete overhaul. Yohan, you and I don’t agree often, but I think we may have found our window 😉
That’s funny, as I do not know any thread within this GMP I am aware of that you disagree with me. Maybe mistaken me with somebody else? This really happened one time about one month ago… Or do you know me from somewhere else? —– Anyway, about this topic, it is rather worthless to discuss something about sex education with a person, who is a female TEACHER and is accusing boys (only boys!) as young as 4 or 5 y/o of sexual harassment. I really wonder, what this has still to do with feminism? Or with the men’s rights movement.… Read more »
Well, I have read posts that I disagree with, and seen statements of yours that look like you’d disagree with me. I don’t think we’ve met anywhere else. I don’t think it has much to do with feminism per se, not as I’ve experienced it, or MRM, but about a system in which people are increasingly terrified of everything.
I have no idea….I don’t know…maybe really, you mistaken me for another poster. I am living in Asia and I am from Europe, not from USA, I am not terrified of everything regarding feminism. I have a regular income, no problems with my family… As MRA I often give the advice to AVOID troubles from the very beginning on, to PREVENT a harmful situation by careful study of the situation in advance – I also often said, as man better do not fight it out with women, but move away and start again with entire new people. – Yes, I… Read more »
Julie Gillis says: January 14, 2012 at 1:56 pm I think the system needs a complete overhaul. ——————————————————————— Yes, correct, a complete overhaul, I just gave you one example, and today it is not the 1st April. But where to begin? I just wanted to show, that to begin with sex education under such circumstances is maybe not the best way to go. It’s not about these elementary students, it’s about the teachers….about school policy…and about existing laws which are incomplete, full with legal loopholes etc… What about something crazy like that? Tell me please, who is here the victim?… Read more »
It is a bloody mess.
I wonder if it is just that most people confuse sexual ASSAULT (which this 100% was) with sexual HARASSMENT (which it is legally impossible for a kid to commit).
It seems especially likely when people don’t want to say sexual assault outright. Like saying sexual harassment is a sort of more polite way of saying sexual assault. Oh it was just a six year old kid! They can’t sexually assault so let’s call it….
Ok so does the kid know it is sexual assault? Probably not. Should a kid get I trouble for doing that? Of course. How do we teach that the sexual areas aren’t for violence? And of course I mean areas of all genders.
The social acceptance of sex outside marriage has led to all this mess. Sex has become more like a transaction rather than an act of love and care. When you are making a transaction “no” doesn’t really mean anything but a prod to make a better offer. The proposal is open till anybody else closes the deal. The old social values have come to end thanks to the proponents of certain ideology.
I’m trying to understand your logic, Rapses. First, sex should only be socially acceptable inside marriage. As a consequence, an unmarried woman’s “No” would mean no, unlike the existing situation, in which “No” just means keep going and have sex with her against her will if necessary, before someone else has sex with her, also against her will. When society only accepts married sex, that means everyone would agree a woman’s “No” really means something, because marriage would be about love and care, and not about men trying to lock in their exclusive sexual rights to their wives before other… Read more »
Pardon me for stating that you are not trying to understand what I have stated but trying to find non-existing faults. Let me explain it in simpler terms. When a man and woman are married, they are sexually exclusive to each other and can decide among themselves what they want to do. Suppose in case sex outside marriage is not acceptable, a man or woman proposing other for sex would have led to social ridicule, or may be some punishment and would have been avoided. Now social acceptance of sex outside marriage has made it possible for men and women… Read more »
Well in the matter of sexual communication women have all the privileges and no responsibility. Last summer, I was in London and on the request of my friends I went to a very popular night club Westminster. While a friends were on dance floor and I was enjoying my drink. A middle aged lady came and sat near me, and asked (precise word) “wanna f@#k.” I was stunned and shortly left the club telling my friends that I was not feeling well. She did not look like S-worker and was in a group. I wondered what would have happened if… Read more »
The thing that really stunned me was the shamelessness of the lady. She was middle aged, and would probably had children, and was looking for sex with stranger. May be I have different mental image of people of that age group.
So you think that she should have felt more shame, because she was middle aged and looking to hook up? Is it better if she’s younger, or a man? Seems like everyone in the club should be able to function under a universal set of rules. I agree that “wanna f–k?” is pretty crude, but I wouldn’t like it better from any demographic.
Well you can forgive somebody of younger age group for immaturity but in that age group it is ridiculous. If a man said that word he would have had to face music.
I’ve had a man come up to me in a club and place my hand on his crotch, something much worse than simply saying ‘wanna fuck’. He didn’t have to face any music. I think both men and women should be able to proposition sex freely if they want to and not be shamed for it, but having some tact simply helps seal the deal. Maybe the woman would have better luck if she offered men a drink or flirted instead. Then again some men (and women) are into that kind of thing (not my thing, but I understand). Maybe… Read more »
Prostitution has existed since antiquity. At what year would you say sex passed from being solely an act of love and care to one subject to transaction?
Prostitutes are like public toilets where anybody can put a coin, pull his pants down and do his stuff.
But in respectable society things are rather complicated.
MODERATOR’S NOTE: elissa, I agree. This comment is an attack on a class of people (prostitutes) and not allowed under our commenting policy. This is a warning. Further comments that are in violation will be removed. See complete commenting guidelines here.
Rapses – that’s a terrible thing to say about human beings.
As an MRA shouldn’t you be sex worker positive? If you are concerned about all the games women can play then why would you be down on the one group of women that are guaranteed to not play games? You should show some respect.
Also: just nasty.
Seriously. Whatever your views on buying sex are, these are HUMAN BEINGS you’re talking about. I would hate for my husband or boyfriend to go to a prostitute, but I can still recognize that sex workers are real people, with real feelings, real thoughts, and real bodies. Some were forced into it, some have no other choice, some see it as just another job, and some really enjoy what they do. Who are you to say what’s respectable? Who are you to compare human beings to inanimate objects?
Amen to that Aya, after watching a video by a sex worker who ENJOYED her work it annoys me that people still try to shame it. Ugh.
Nikki B. says:
January 14, 2012 at 11:00 am
I was also reading in the paper this morning about sex ed in schools
By 5th grade, they should understand sexual orientation as well as sexual assault and harassment.
————————————-
I really wonder what kind of sex education this might be. In the past we have known cases of boys, 6, 5 and even 4 y/o to be accused of sexual harassment.
Yeah, and I find that really really troubling. I think it’s a kind of hysteria to think a 5 year old child no matter the gender, kissing a teacher or classmate, is sexual harassment. Part of that is a intense fear of litigation on the schools part so they over react to very normal things. I’ve had calls from my school when my son was like 6 for things. Really stupid things which they realized were stupid but they “had to call me.” Like how kids can’t even draw pictures of weapons in class. I have a hope that if… Read more »
Thank you for “NO HOSTILITY”…and yes, this is an important topic to discuss…when I was way too young and naive, I had a long relationship with a man much older than me…it ended 2 decades ago, but it wasn’t until 3 years ago when he started stalking me and my family that I was forced to reexamine the particulars of that relationship…I read “Why Does He Do That?” by Lundy Bancroft and I felt like I was run over by a truck! Yes, I was manipulated, coerced, raped (I was too young, he was too old and he got away… Read more »
Thanks for this Julie. I was also reading in the paper this morning about sex ed in schools, and new programs that want to talk with kids, starting in elementary school, about the correct words for penis and vagina, etc. By 5th grade, they should understand sexual orientation as well as sexual assault and harassment. Such education, I think, would mean we grow up understanding that boundaries are important, and what these things look like. We grow up more aware, instead of just taught by pop culture and the media that men take sex, women withhold – and I think… Read more »
I do think this piece tells us a lot about the dynamic of a significant proportion of sexual encounters. I have a handful of similar stories. It tells us that communication is key even when absent. It tells us that communication is not the magic bullet we might hope it would be as it is often not well established, nor can it be well established given context, personalities or happenstance. It tells us that inexperience and lack of sexual maturity is a door everyone walks through. It tells us that slogans such as “No means No”, “Yes means Yes”, “No… Read more »
Hypothetical situation: I’m in a club or a party. There are many women having a great time. I plan to do so too. I have two distinct strategies toward having a great time, maybe having sex with a woman. #1 I meet a woman and talk to her. Dance with her. Do the fun stuff as the situation there dictate. I try to subtly show my interest by paying attention to her, touch her lightly on her shoulders, then other places as she allow me slowly. Finally the event is done. I ask her if we can head out together.… Read more »
I think that the first scenario is reasonably common. And in both examples in the first scenario things worked out well, yes? She has sex with you, or she says no and you leave after a chat. Things do sometimes take a turn for the worse with a “no” from either partner coming at a moment when one doesn’t want to stop. We have all already discussed that men say no too yes? I’m trying to keep this as gender neutral as possible as the scenarios can include Lesbian and Gay relationships. The second scenario you are much more blunt,… Read more »
Indeed in the first hypothetical situation, there were positive endings. But I feel that they would leave me feeling somewhat like I missed some hints somewhere. (I’m Deaf with low vision. Low vision is relevant here. With my low vision, I am not so confident of seeing all subtle body language hints that I’m supposed to look for according to countless advice articles, movie and TV show plots, and friends. There are these little signs I’m supposed to look for.) So yeah there in the first situation, I did not include bad endings on purpose because there are just too… Read more »
Discussed it elsewhere: Activists need numbers. To be seen as being victimized is metaphorically money in the bank, and can lead to actual money in the bank. More victimization is more money in the bank. The other side of the coin is that when a member of an accredited victim group is seen as victimizing, it’s a withdrawal from the bank. Hence the differential treatment of various offenses. Matthew Shepard is a martyr, Jesse Dirkhising is a Who?, huh?. James Byrd is a martyr, Kenneth Tillery is unknown. The Lombard/Duke atrocity has been buried. Katie Rouse, Dukie and rape victim,… Read more »
These are some very good points, and I appreciate you fleshing out your criticism of Koss by explaining how it sets precedent in law as well as feminist theory. I would disagree, however, that Gillis hasn’t been talking about “rape/not rape.” Because our ideas of what rape might include expand and contract based on who has spoken most recently, or who we think the victim or the attacker is in the scenario, or a host of other factors, there is a blurring of definitions. I think what Gillis is concentrating on here is personal accountability in these situations, in which… Read more »
Justin. lf it isn’t rape…it isn’t rape. If it’s not consented to, or enthusiastically participated in, it’s probably still not rape if it isn’t rape. Problem is, as I say, expanding the definition. From the activists’ point of view, the drunken nineteen year olds who can’t remember what happened and the dully accepting partner are part of the RAAAAPE!!!! numbers on which laws, grants, policies, and social clout are based. If we’re talking about boring, uncomfortable, embarrassing sexual acts which could have been avoided if somebody had spoken up, two things are true. If they could have been avoided by… Read more »
Yes. And hopefully, more conversations like this one, held often enough, will tip things in our culture so that more and more people feel at ease talking about sex; so at ease, that they can do it tired, or tipsy, or uncertain. Because we don’t live in a perfect world. We can just do the best we can and keep trying.
Yes Justin, that’s a great summation. I would assume also that any gender pairing in our current time frame would not necessarily have been enculturated, empowered and educated towards this type of communication and no matter the combination, better sex would occur with less confusion.
This would also have, I would hope and certainly is simply a theory, the side effect of allowing those stats about assault to be more accurate, which I think we here would find to be a good thing.
The woman I was with had no problems with me saying would you like to do this, want me to do that? I gave her equal power and kept asking if I tried something different simply because I didn’t EVER want to have a situation where she went along with it without wanting it. That would have killed me.
If asking isn’t romantic, then I’d question peoples idea of romance because ensuring both parties are willing is one of the most romantic things people can do.
If asking isn’t romantic, then I’d question peoples idea of romance because ensuring both parties are willing is one of the most romantic things people can do.
This is just so true. Mutual respect is sexy.
You can find a sexy way to ask. We can brainstorm sexy ways to ask for consent… That might be a good idea.
And you can also find a sexy way NOT to ask.
And there are those who view being “in sync” as much more romantic than needing a consent form. Romantic is in the eye of the beholder.
EDIT
“The whole point of conflating having consensual sex while drunk or drugged with rape is to blur the line between sex and rape.”
Do you mean that sometimes people might actually WANT to have sex without being seen to consent? eg. so they have deniability if things don’t work out, if they change their minds or even if they decide their friends wouldn’t approve of the hook-up?
Ok, every day is conflating men and rape day here, unconscious mental note to self men and mens issues = rape of women. The whole point of conflating having consensual sex while drunk or drugged is to blur the line between sex and rape. Its was found in a follow up to the original Koss 1 in 4 study, the number of people that considered themselves to have been raped was something like 1 in 32. What happens is just feminist researchers conflate things like consensual sexual sex between two in intoxicated people and being raped while unconscious. MODERATOR’S NOTE:… Read more »
“Its was found in a follow up to the original Koss 1 in 4 study, the number of people that considered themselves to have been raped was something like 1 in 32. What happens is just feminist researchers conflate things like consensual sexual sex between two in intoxicated people and being raped while unconscious.” Given the level of sex whilst both men and women have had alcohol, the level of rape for men would also be very high if they are simply including any alcohol in the system before sex. I’d prefer the stat for with alcohol be separated some… Read more »
@Moderators Could you please explain point by point how the above two comments are in violation of commenting policy. In my opinion these comments are just statement of facts which are quite obvious. MODERATOR’S EXPLANATION: In the first case, saying that a person has “published a lot of damaging lies” is calling them a liar which is name-calling. It is also questioning the intentions of the site itself, which is to have conversations and dialogue around men and goodness. You can not agree with a statement and still have a conversation about it. Calling it a lie is not civil.… Read more »
Thank you.
I didn’t ask myself for fear of having my ip blocked, I was warned not to question the publisher.
@moderators
1. If “this man” instead of using the word “damaging lies” used the word “factually incorrect”, would it have been Okay?
2. Though the study mentioned was not quoted by the author, but I still find that it is not totally irrelevant to the issue discussed in the opinion piece. Do we from know on can only discuss the topics in the narrow confines of the opinion piece instead of wider picture.
Im curious too. As the article policy is new and bumps are to be expected, hopefully commenters and mods can dialogue back and forth, to arrive at a consensus as to what degree of moderation is required for what grade of article? Will there only be two grades of civility/moderation (no hostility and open ), or more grades? Depending on the grade of article, archy’s comment could be seen to have wandered too far offtopic, I could see that. However I dont know the level of moderation being applied to this thread. Though, Im not seeing how This man’s comment… Read more »
Moderators
““What happens is just feminist researchers conflate things….” defames feminists as a group.”
No it doesn’t. I was talking about feminist RESEARCHERS who conflate not rape and rape in surveys in order to inflate the figures, which is something that FEMINIST Christine Hoff Sommers has written about.
To say that that a valid criticism of feminist researchers defames all feminists is a misrepreseatation.
Not all feminists are researchers, most feminists have no clue about how the advocacy research is done and take it at face value.
Your points have been taken. Do you have any thoughts on the piece though? About sexual communication, and not about stats (the good, bad and ugly of them)?
What do I think? MEN RAPE WOMEN, MEN RAPE WOMEN, MEN RAPE WOMEN!!! RAPE, RAPE, RAPE, RAPE! I’m sick of rape and men being constantly conflated, I’m sick of the definition of rape being expanded to include consensual sex, I believe that governance feminism wont stop until there are contracts for sexual contact for heterosexuals and nobody else (radical separatist agenda) and the right to the presumption of innocence for men is gone. I’m sick to death of the endless men rape women drumbeat from American feminists. I would like to be able to come here, just once and not… Read more »
I’m not actually conflating sex and rape. I’m not saying all men rape women. I’m actually being extraordinarily focused on gender neutral framing here, and including any and all gender combinations in the topic. I’m not saying that consensual sex is rape. I’m not here pushing bogus stats, promoting the idea that men are rapeymcraperson, or in favor of sexual contracts. I think that would be extraordinarily time consuming to fill out all that paperwork, and yes I’m trying to be just a tiny bit lighthearted here. I hate paperwork. I think people are capable of a better system than… Read more »
Can I ask a meta question please? When you wrote that original comment about Koss did you genuinely feel that it was a neutral non-hostile comment that didn’t ping feminists or anything and you were shocked to get moderated? Or, did you feel that Julie’s initial article itself pinged the MRAs and demanded a response in kind? Or did you feel that you were trying to be as polite and neutral as you could be given what you wanted to say? Or do you feel on reflection maybe your comment pinged feminists and you “started it” and therefore the moderation… Read more »
OK, good to see this from the moderator. This is exactly the kind of thing I was expressing concern about in my prior comment– I’m really happy to see this being addressed!
Thank you!
Morgaine, there are but a few moderators working at any given time, sometimes only one, and overnight is difficult. We do not want to censor conversation on either end, and are focusing on our commenting policy for our standards. You may always contact Lisa Hickey if you have questions.
Joanna Schroeder says: January 13, 2012 at 10:07 pm ….. Now I know women’s desire is just as strong and both are controllable, but that it all takes such maturity. Our sexuality is power, the power to say yes and the power to say no are equally as powerful. ———————————————— This is nicely said, however the truth is rather different in real life. YES can mean NO, and NO can mean YES, depending on the mood of the girl and this is not controllable by the man and such decisions can be recalled and changed by her any moment. The… Read more »
What should this mean? This is a great question Yohan. Which is why I hope we can keep talking about those things here.
Where Are the Lines Between Sex and Rape? This is a good question. Sometimes even lawyers, judges and otherwise people active in a legal profession have to discuss among themselves for hours in certain cases to decide what is rape and what is not. Basically any sexual contact with a female can be rape under certain circumstances. It is very difficult for a man without legal guidelines to prove consent was given, and how can he know, if the girl was taking medicine or otherwise drugs, and even to drink a small amount of alcohol might be enough already to… Read more »
This is the heart of the problem from a man’s perspective. Excellent advice. As a feminist I completely support this.
As man you still have the right to say NO. Say NO. Say always NO.
Am I understanding this right? Your answer here is that, in Western countries, no man should EVER trust ANY woman, EVER, and that, in Western countries, no man should EVER have sex with a woman ever again?
@ Kirsten I was referring to this situation: Sex with unknown women…and I wrote (Please read back): The best solution for a man is to reject such a questionable short term hook-up situation with unknown women. As man you still have the right to say NO. Say NO. Say always NO. ———————— For sure in such a questionable situation, usually with alcohol on the table, maybe with drugs and medication too, where a woman you meet the first time agrees immediately to have sex with you, you have to act very very carefully as a man. My advice as MRA:… Read more »
Okay, I see what you are saying now. I was reading it in conjunction with this:
To enjoy any sexual contact with a woman in Western countries which has such complicated rape definitions is risky – and it’s not only about a short time hook-up scenario. It might even be risky to have any sexual contact with your own wife, despite you are legally married. – There is no difference in court if you are meeting a woman accidentally in the street and you don’t even know her name or if you are married with this woman since years.
There’s no legal difference, but, presumably, once you get to know a woman, you’ll gain more trust about her motives. (Or less, depending on the woman.) That’s what I got out of it.
So what Julie would like is something like: Her stake: (1) actual desire for sex His stake: (1) actual desire for sex What it used to look like: Her stake: (1) if I give it up to easy or try to lead, does that make me a slut? (2) if I don’t does that lose me a bf? (3) actual desire for sex His stake: (1) if I don’t push enough I might lose a gf (2) if I push too much I might lose a gf (3) actual desire for sex So there’s much more involved than just sex… Read more »