Doctor NerdLove challenges the notion that sex is more easily attainable for women.
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I’ve noticed that there’s a topic that comes up repeatedly when it comes to talking about dating issues, whether it’s about the problems with being a Nice Guy, online dating, or even just approaching new people: the idea that women hold all of the power in dating. They are The Choosers, the gatekeepers to the Promised Land1, cruel temptresses who taunt men by being attractive and yet unavailable. Because sex is so much more easily attainable for women – or so the conventional wisdom goes – they have luxury of being able to define the standards which men must meet, wantonly cutting off men who are not rich, tall douchebags with square jaws and fast cars. Men feel helpless; they feel that they are forced to leap through hoops in order to win women’s approval and hope that she will pick him against all odds.
Too bad that it’s bullshit.
In fact, not only is the idea that women somehow control all the power in sex and dating not true, but it’s a case of people asking the wrong question. It’s a cluster of self-limiting beliefs that holds people back from meeting new and exciting potential partners, whether it’s for sex or for relationships.
“ANY WOMAN COULD GET SEX ANY TIME SHE WANTS”
The Belief:
This is one of the most pernicious myths about dating out there. The idea is that because it is supposedly easier for women to find a sexual partner than it is for a man, they are the dominant force, the buyer in a buyer’s market. Because men supposedly can’t wander into the mythical Bar (and it’s always a “a woman can wander into a bar” scenario) and wander out five minutes later with a woman eager to jump his bones,women by default have greater power when it comes to dating. Men have to compete in order to win her approval while a woman gets to pick and choose who she wants based on whatever arbitrary standards she feels like in the moment.
Why It’s Bullshit
To start with, there are plenty of women out there who aren’t rolling into a bar and rolling out with a bedmate. There are many women who struggle to find dates, whether it’s because they’re too tall, too big, too whatever.
Let’s be honest. This complaint really translates as “the hot woman I want to fuck but won’t give me the time of day can get sex any time she wants.”
Beyond that, the ability to get a sexual partner within a pre-set amount of time or with whatever suitable definition of “ease” might be isn’t exclusive to women. Men have equal ability to find sexual partners as women do… it just involves being willing to lower your standards to being willing to sleep with anyone who offers or shows an interest. Women who aren’t conventionally attractive, whose body types differ from the culturally accepted ideal or otherwise don’t meet one’s personal levels of sexiness are out there, hoping to get laid just as much as everybody else.
The same applies to women. A woman’s supposed ability to get laid easily or quickly doesn’t correspond with the desirability of the available sex partners. A woman could go into a bar and pick up a man for sex, yes, but it doesn’t mean that she’s going to necessarily find someone she’s attracted to.
And to be perfectly frank, if all a woman wants is to get off, vibrators are safer, easier and aren’t going to use the last of the milk in their coffee the morning after.
The problem with asking this question is that it assumes that women and men have the same goals when it comes to sex. Guys frequently get hung up on numbers; how many people have you slept with, how quickly can you get a woman to sleep with you. They have a tendency to fall for the old axiom that sex is like pizza; even when it’s bad, it’s still pretty good.
Having had a lot of bad pizza and regretful sex… yeah, not so much. The problem is that men are viewing women through the prism of the male experience: the goal of getting sex as quickly as possible, as easily as possible. While exceptions certainly exist, women on the whole don’t approach casual sex the way that men do; they’re not looking for how quickly they can find a pole for the hole, they’re looking for someone who excites them and can provide the sex they want. Johnny Pick-Up Line with the over-greased hair and the Affliction tee may be ready and eager to be the droid she’s looking for, but the fact that he’s willing to bang her doesn’t translate into “yay, I have all the power here”, it’s “great, another asshole who wants to get into my pants.”
There are certain areas where it is in fact, a buyer’s market for women. In online dating, for example, the number of men on dating sites tends to easily outnumber the women. A woman will find frequently find her profile flooded with emails and winks.
Now ask her just how many of those come from people she’d want to talk to at all, never mind go on a date with.
“WOMEN ONLY WANT TALL, RICH, HANDSOME ALPHA MALES”
The Belief:
It stands to reason that since women have all of the power when it comes to dating, they get to pick and choose from ALL THE MENZ… so of course, the only men who get laid are alpha males with lantern jaws and six-pack abs. Everybody else – the beta males, the socially awkward, the chubby, husky dudes, the symetrically challenged – they’re left holding the bag and their dicks, crying impotent, sexless tears. Even goddamn Disney gets in on the act: the unspoken moral of The Hunchback of Notre Dame is “You can have a beautiful soul and sing like an angel, but the cheerleader is still going home with the quarterback.”
Why It’s Bullshit
Take a stroll through Wal-Mart on a Saturday afternoon. You’re going to see lots of dudes who aren’t exactly making the cover of People’s Sexiest Man shopping with their girlfriends and wives.
“But look at the women they’re with!” I hear some of you cry, at which point we’re right back to the same issue as before: “the impossibly hot woman I want to date/sleep with won’t date me.”
So straight talk: societally accepted standards of beauty kind of suck. They promote literally impossible standards in myriad ways – both overt and subtle. Beauty standards as we’re taught in western culture are European features and bodies and skin that can only be achieved via money, surgery and lots and LOTS of Photoshop. And to be perfectly honest, people can be pretty damn shallow regardless of gender.
That being said, one common issue I talk about is the overdeveloped-and-undeserved sense of entitlement that a lot of men2 have. They tend to believe that they deserve a smoking hottie, a perfect 10 regardless of their own looks, wealth, lifestyle or personality. It’s not a real surprise to find out that a Nice Guy who doesn’t take care of his appearance and believes that he’s owed a girlfriend is having a hard time getting that 10 to give him her number. Meanwhile he sees Studly GoodNight go up, slap her on the ass, tell her obscene jokes and takes her home that night to fuck her until her eyes bleed.
QED: all women want are hot assholes, not nice guys who may not be the social ideal. Look around and all you see are beautiful people fucking other beautiful people while wonderful – if less facially gifted – men are stuck home alone.
The problem is that this falls under what’s known as the confirmation bias: the tendency to only believe evidence that validates an already existing belief. In this case: “I am not attractive. Hot women do not want to date me. I only see hot women dating hot men. Ugly men do not get girlfriends or wives.”
And yet somehow Patton Oswalt is happily married with a lovely daughter. As is Alan Moore, for that matter.
For that matter, we can add Dennis Kucinich, Woody Allen, Henry Kissinger… In fact, the “ugly guy pulling hot women” trope is so well known that TVTropes has an entry on it.
Before you start, let me forestall the inevitable “Great, so you don’t have to be hot, you just have to be powerful/rich/more talented than God”. There is far more to attraction than looks – though they help – or being in the rarified 1% of money, talent or fame. I have friends who aren’t conventionally attractive, aren’t especially rich and are certainly not powerful… and yet have amazing girlfriends and wives. Why? Because they have lives. They have passion in their life and know how to convey it. They have the confidence – and more importantly, balls. They can make women laugh, feel special without putting them on a pedestal and yet not come across as needy. And they’re not the only ones out there.
Speaking of balls…
“MEN HAVE TO TAKE ALL THE RISKS”
The Belief:
It’s the 21st century, a post-Third Wave Feminist era. Women are closer to true social equality than ever before: wages are growing closer to parity, women outnumber men in college attendance and are achieving leadership positions in corporations and government in ways that previous generations could only dream of.
And yet men have to do all the work when it comes to courtship. Men still have to be the aggressors, men are the ones who have to make the approach, call first, ask her out, pay for the date… all of the heavy lifting when it comes to dating. Women are clearly either lazy, entitled or just get off on having men subjugate themselves.
Why It’s Bullshit:
Let’s be honest: more often than not the men who complain most about this are the men who would prefer not to be approaching women themselves, whether due to approach anxiety, a fear of rejection or even just not being sure whether or not she’s interested. As a general rule, men who are able to approach women aren’t too concerned about why women won’t make the first move because they’re more than happy to make the move themselves.
Now to be sure: there are plenty of women out there who will happily be the aggressor when it comes to relationships. Women who are willing to come over and say “hey” to a guy they find attractive aren’t unicorns or the Loch Ness monster. Hell, they’re not even the okapi. They just tend to be discounted because of confirmation bias; they don’t “count” because they’re approaching other people or because they’re the exception that proves the rule or… or… or…
But for the sake of argument, let’s look at why women may not want to make the first move.
To start with: even in this day and age, women are socialized to be passive and submissive towards men. They’re taught to be accommodating, to not cause offense… and to not be aggressive or forward. And in fact, many men actively dislike women who are agressive sexually or romantically; they prefer the standard gender roles and find women who make the first move to be intimidating.
Another reason why she may not be making the first move? Because you can tell a lot about a guy by if and how he makes his approach. Does he have the confidence to walk up and make his interest known? Confidence after all is sexy indeed; the guy who can’t quite work up the guts to walk over and introduce himself isn’t winning any favors by trying to call her over by sheer willpower. At the same time, she can generally be assure that someone who makes the point of coming over to talk to her is interested in her; if she goes up to a guy to talk to him… well, is it that he’s genuinely interested, or is it that he’s willing to run with the fact that someone came to him and any warm body will do?
For that matter: she may not be coming up to talk to you because… well, she just isn’t that into you. Sorry. You might be able to spark her interest if you were to go over and show that you actually do bring a lot to the table, but since you didn’t, she certainly isn’t going to be able to read your mind.
But the biggest, most likely reason that she’s not making the first move? The odds are good that she’s just as nervous as you are.
I know, it goes against all those beliefs about how women are the choosers and have their pick of men but the fact of the matter is, women suffer from the same insecurities, fears and imagined worst-case-scenariosmen do. Think of how many times you’ve looked over at a woman standing with all of her friends and wishing you could catch her alone so you wouldn’t have to deal with the entire group? Guess what? She’s feeling the same nervousness. Is she going to get mocked and shut down by your bros? Is that girl you’re standing with your girlfriend or just someone you happen to know? Is she going to have to fight them for your attention? Are you going to just make fun of her when you consider yourself out of her league?
Every single awkward moment you’ve imagined, every single way things could go wrong that you’ve war-gamed in advance that freezes you in your tracks?
She’s felt them too.
SO WHO REALLY HAS THE POWER?
Well… nobody. And everybody.
To quote a wise man who knows a lot about the dynamics of relationships:
“Power resides where men believe it resides. It’s a trick. A shadow on the wall.”
The point being is that the reason why so many people think that women have all of the power in dating is because they see themselves as powerless. They cling to self-limiting beliefs that confirm all of their worst fears and insecurities and validate their decision not to risk being rejected. In fact, they’ve been rejected in advance and that their only hope is that you somehow struggle hard enough to “win” her approval.
It originates from a scarcity mentality, the idea that there are so few women out there that each time you get rejected, you are that much closer to being shut out of dating and relationships entirely. Instead of seeing every encounter with a woman as a chance to meet someone new and find out whether or not she’s someone you should be interested in, each potential approach is a last ditch effort to ward off loneliness and being emotionally bereft.
Men have just as much power in the dating scene as women do, if they only would reframe the interaction in their minds. Don’t see approaching a woman as supplicating or auditioning for the role of “suitor”, see it as evaluating whether she’s someone worth your getting to know. You don’t want to spend time desperately trying to make something happen in order to make her choose you, go out with the idea that you’re trying to decide whether you want to choose them.
Instead of clinging to the idea that women are “in charge” because of bullshit ideas about how easily they can get laid or what “all women” are attracted to, spend more time thinking about whether their interests match up with yours. Talk to her with the aim of finding out whether or not she’s as cool as she seems to be. Is she someone who has something going for her besides her looks? Does she live a life that you would like to be a part of? It’s easy enough to decide off the bat whether or not you’d want to be balls deep in her by the end of the night, but is she someone you could have an engaging conversation with after you’ve blown your load?
When you change the mental frame from “supplicant” to “chooser”, you go flip the script. You adopt an abundance mentality. You’re no longer going in with an unattractive aura of neediness, you’re someone with an attractive life and value to offer and you’re looking for a partner in crime to share it with. If she doesn’t like you, well, so the hell what? There are plenty of other women out there and you’re just one step closer to finding one who fits you.
And that attitude, my friends, is real power.
Read more Doctor NerdLove!
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Originally appeared at Doctor NerdLove and is republished on Medium.
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Photo credit: Shutterstock
“Let’s be honest: more often than not the men who complain most about this are the men who would prefer not to be approaching women themselves, whether due to approach anxiety, a fear of rejection or even just not being sure whether or not she’s interested. As a general rule, men who are able to approach women aren’t too concerned about why women won’t make the first move because they’re more than happy to make the move themselves.” SERIOUSLY, clearly this is who it will impact; just because there are men who are not hindered by these hesitations does not… Read more »
Has the author check any real research on this topic?
It is easier to a woman to get sexual than is for a man. However the research shows that with age the balance shifts.
I think the problem with this misogynistic thought, along with many others that spread mainly on the internet, is actually a socialization problem in general. Imagine two groups of people, ten people who are on the computer two hours a day and two people who are on the computer 16 hours a day. The two people would leave much more comments, much more clicks, than the ten who are just on in two hours a day, right? I know people who spend even more time on the computer or the game console, only sleeping three or four hours in the… Read more »
Funny, I didn’t know socialising was a “one person game” ? If you’re not given the light of day by others, you can try all you want, you’ll be getting nowhere. Internet ? At least the first selection criteria is no longer that I have a few pounds more than the photoshopped “ideal man”.
“It’s easy enough to decide off the bat whether or not you’d want to be balls deep in her by the end of the night, but is she someone you could have an engaging conversation with after you’ve blown your load?”
How vulgar the mind can be to even think of women with such disrespect.
Some people are really angry at men for expressing an interest in fabulously beautiful women, and for some people these men appear to feel entitled to something. No one is entitled to sex or entitled to a relationship. But, you are totally entitled to your preferences, and in a dating situation you have a right to express your preferences. Other people can say what they want about what you “deserve,” but your preferences are your own. Aim high, aim low, aim for the middle, whatever you prefer, and others will choose for themselves. It’s not a question of what you’ve… Read more »
Either women approach me or forget it! They are really surprised when I take them someplace nice and pay for it. I guess I will not be treated the way these guys put themselves under the bus to begin with.
This is funny, i’m a female, and the dominant narrative out there seems to be ‘there are no good men out there, men hold all the power in dating, they have unrealistic expectations, it’s a buyers’ market yada yada’… and here are a bunch of guys on the interweb saying the same about women. Aren’t we all silly? Just a question.. i am a bit of an alpha female, of somewhat above average looks, and i always seem to get approached by alpha male guys who often turn out to have narcissistic tendencies that render them, erm, unsuitable relationship prospects.… Read more »
“This is funny, i’m a female, and the dominant narrative out there seems to be ‘there are no good men out there, men hold all the power in dating, they have unrealistic expectations, it’s a buyers’ market yada yada’… and here are a bunch of guys on the interweb saying the same about women. Aren’t we all silly?” Maybe because the fools that made the narrative didnt consult the guys. Thats not a anomaly, its quite normal actually. Thts why I ignore the narrative, far to many holes (no irony). I dont know how your dating habits are, but how… Read more »
How nerdy? Try gaming conventions? Maybe dating sites for “nerds”? Approach guys you like, take the initiative. Some may be shy though but if you can work past that then you might find a great guy who simply needs to be shown his greatness. I know quite a few decent guys and girls who are shy and unsure of their potential…
Studies clearly show a very high correlations between alpha male behavior(s) and narcissism. Yet, it these men whom women seem to desire. I guess they are looking the “best providers.”
Btw, does lantern jaw = square jaw?
As to where to find the nerdy guys? Well, the tech industry is known for such men. Find out where the tech cos are and where the folks go for happy hour. Just a thought.
“It’s nice and all, but I just want a regular nerdy guy. Men with lantern jaws and Ferraris need not apply.”
Hey, now. A man could be a nerd and have a lantern jaw. Bruce Campbell comes to mind. Dunno what kind of car he drives these days, but probably not a Ferrari.
S-252, I don’t get how the first two sentences don’t make sense together, as long as the ‘perfect 10’ comment is in regards to what the man says, not the opinion of the commentor. I find men of all different body types, face shapes, hair, and races to be beautiful. That doesn’t mean each one of them is entitled to their own personal Megan Fox. I love the Dove campaign, especially in what it attempts to do to help young girls and teens (I was never a fat girl, but at around 10 years old, I developed anorexia and bulimia… Read more »
@Aya… “It’s more about pointing out a hypocrisy in a man who only wants someone conventionally perfect, rates people by numbers, and tears apart the looks of other people when he himself doesn’t have the looks, body, or hygiene that society deems attractive (although it doesn’t mean that he can’t be beautiful in his own way)” I must agree with you Aya. I hear and see men on a weekly basis critiquing women and they themselves are pathetic looking (comb overs, out of shape, poor hygiene etc). We all have our preferences….I love a lot of different women. I am… Read more »
What. So you only have the right to critique someone’s appearance if you’re yourself good looking? That’s an interesting view.
It’s also interesting that you witness it on a weekly basis. All I ever see and hear, is women criticizing other women. Jealousy, backstabbing, competition, all that sweet loveliness between the pretentious, overly cheery toothy smile “hiiiiiie” greetings. <3
Actually,its not about the „right to judge“ – what they were saying is that many of those men, who are bitter at gorgeous women not looking their way, don‘t really put effort into attracting those women. Instead of working out, changing their diet, improving communication skills, finding new hobbies, whatever it takes to be a better version of themselves, they find it easier to complain how shallow those beautiful women are for choosing alphas. But tell me, why should a woman be attracted towards someone who not only looks „whatever“, but, what is more important, also carries a negative attitude… Read more »
I love the Dove campaign, especially in what it attempts to do to help young girls and teens (I was never a fat girl, but at around 10 years old, I developed anorexia and bulimia that seriously threatened my life). If confidence is more important for males than females for success, why is the Dove campaign aimed at females, most of which are already way too confident hypergamous entitlement queens anyway? And Barbie dolls? Don’t get me started on G.I. Joe and He-Man. Besides, those anorexics have reached all the wrong conclusions about why supermodels are so skinny. It’s not… Read more »
I have a new theory about this post and Dr. NerdLove. My guess is that, being at one point a guy not great with women, he surveyed his life and then took 110% responsibility for each and every thing that wasn’t going his way. His “What am I doing wrong?”/”What can I improve?” attitude functions as a “constructive pathology” in that while he has a great sense of personal agency his brain isn’t attuned to ways that the poor attitudes and behavior of women might contribute to the status quo. He is hypercritical of men and never-critical of women because… Read more »
The thing is, you can’t really fight the system. I used to be angry at men because they ignored me in favor of women who are more physically attractive. I wanted men to look past the physical and value me for my other qualities. It didn’t seem fair. I’m a kind person, smart, I love sex, I love having fun, why can’t that be enough? But wanting doesn’t make it so. I can do more for my love life by dressing sexy and staying in shape than I can by developing my mind or character. My mind and character may… Read more »
And if they did give you more attention, would you get annoyed and try suggest that’s all men want like countless other women seem to be suggesting here? Men can’t win either way it seems, if we are interested it’s shallow n about looks, if we aren’t then we’re shallow and too picky. If our standards are too high, we’re shallow, if they’re low then we have no standards and fuck everything that moves.
@Archy….This is a pretty accurate description of dating for most single modern American women. They can pretend all they wish, but reality IS reality. There is no way in hell anyone is going to tell me their is a shortage of decent and available single men in America. Why? Because there isn’t! In my humble opinion, the real problem is unrealistic expectations by women, of men. And this is rooted in narcissism (I deserve the best!, I am not settling!, Love yourself!…). Btw, women do not have a monopoly on narcissism. The most narcissistic men are alpha males. All studies… Read more »
” In my humble opinion, the real problem is unrealistic expectations by women, of men. And this is rooted in narcissism (I deserve the best!, I am not settling!, Love yourself!…). Btw, women do not have a monopoly on narcissism. ” The mystery method (PUA theory) actually cover this, a short syntesis of it is our brains are still living in the jungle, and a woman have better chances of survival if she gets the sympathy of the Alpha (or the alpha group) rather than be left alone with a weak male that is unable to protect her and the… Read more »
“Men can be angry about women’s tastes and preferences but it won’t change anything, so at some point you have to make the best of it.”
Precisely. That is what I elected to do. I have made the “best of it” by only having friends with benefits. It works for me and it works for them.
As you so accurately stated, you cannot fight the system. So, figure out a way to go around it.
I like William’s assessment of the author’s mindset, here. I think it’s a typical phenomenon that doesn’t often get defined so well. I guess the question is in whether the author is offering self help advice or making a sociological argument. It seems valid to say that looking at women negatively in the dating world gets you nowhere fast, but the author uses this point of advice as sociological theory. Just because being negative is pointless to solving one’s loneliness (or satisfying his sex drive) doesn’t mean it’s not the result of something true or valid. The author suggests that… Read more »
What happens when this (quoted from the article):
Collides with this (Dove):
I guess we have to get something like this:
Ironically, the first two sentences tend to come out of the same person, depending on the situation.
Lets. Change it up a little. Explain your dating/hookup/romance/love utopia. What system would you like to have in place? Who approaches who and why, what kind of mindset should people have,etc,etc? What do you think will be ideal for as many people as possible? Mine: Most people approach 60% and most are at least approached 40%. This is for all scenes gay/straight/bi/bdsm… Why is it important that most people approach? Because what you do defines how you think. And if you, most of the time, are the chooser. You will think in a very binary way = yes/no/maybe. It is… Read more »
The opening question is still in effect.
What would be the perfect datingscene for the most people as possible?
Because of men’s and women’s conflicting goals, such a dating scene would have to simultaneously exist in two parallel universes in each of which the circumstanes are perfect for one gender. As perfect as possible? Now there’s a tough nut to crack. Maybe a site where everyone lists everything about themselves in a very brutally honest fashion (psychological profiling), but maintain complete anonymity; then The Machine finds the best match. Based on brutal honesty, not facades or self-deceptive ideals. This, because online dating is a game of facades and seld deception, and people often have only very vague ideas of… Read more »
Women and mens goals will change with what is expected of them. If you have to approach more than you are approached then you will become more open and possitive to other people then when you just sitt down and judge. Even if womens goals is in the long terms. When you approach you are forced to examine what you really want and what you can get and change it to the new situation. You always get a very dehumanizing way of thinking about the other person when you are the chooser. You see everything like when you are out… Read more »
I can give personal reasons that I would feel highly uncomfortable approaching anyone, and it’s a little different than other women’s reasons, perhaps. Looks are great and all, but I put very little clout in them, and how the hell can you tell if you’d even LIKE a person just by looking at them? I think this may also be why men are expected to approach, because they’re “visual” creatures (whether you believe the stereotype or not is up to you). I don’t know if it’s true, but men might be more willing to approach a girl because she’s cute,… Read more »
Looks are great and all, but I put very little clout in them, and how the hell can you tell if you’d even LIKE a person just by looking at them?
You can’t. But as first impressions go, before we develop mind-reading skills, that’s pretty much what you have to go by.
No-one says that you have to decide if you like someone based on looks alone. And if you’re happy and/or comfortable to not be partaking in the dating scene, or even being interested therein, so much better for you.
By the way, isn’t it kind of funny how in dating sites women actively demonstrate their numerous criteria for rejecting you (“Don’t message me if…”, “Don’t bother if..”, “Only message me if you are x”), while at the same time men are being adviced to “not appear negative” in their profiles in any way, if they want to have any degree of success.
Just one of the many things that make it all seem very skewed.
The problem is that so many men on dating sites will spam every woman on the site even if they don’t meet her stated criteria. When I tried on line dating, I said I was looking for men between the ages of 25 and 35 (I was 27 at the time) within 50 miles of where I was living. I got dozens and dozens of emails from men between the ages of 36 and 60, quite a few from guys 18-24, and many from guys living as far as 200 miles away. I said I was looking for someone single… Read more »
“Why not focus on sending targeted ads to women who might actually be interested, instead of spamming every woman who looks attractive?”
Many do and probably get rejected, hence the need for scattergun to get ANYTHING.
That will be true as long as most guys are spamming. But if men as a group only sent targeted ads, women as a group would get fewer responses and they’d have to change their tactics. Just an idea….
For what it’s worth, I certainly do that. I don’t spam copy-pasta, I only send personal messages to women I find genuinely interesting and/or attractive. I do wish other men did that too. Now what on earth has resulted in such circumstances that spamming actually works? (if it didn’t, why would they be doing it?)
That’s assuming the women want the men who are sending messages, but it seems they’re far more picky than the guys so it probably wouldn’t work…Just a thought…
Sarah, If that changed I probably wouldnt take more initiative. Id be very much cool with going on a few dates that were high quality but few. I would just make my profile flashier. In my experience, things just work better when its the man who shows the initial interest. I think that if women approached men, eveyone would just have to be cool with alpha males having harems. Even if you take out physical looks, women have more standards for men than the other way around. He’s gotta be a certain age, cant live with mom, gotta be a… Read more »
“I think that if women approached men, eveyone would just have to be cool with alpha males having harems.”
They already do! Women want these men more than any others. That why when they (women) get married or enter into long term relationships with beta males, the beta male is not treated as well as the alpha male.
If Tom Brady, George Clooney, or Ryan Gossling were to approach Sarah, she would break her rule of not talking to strange men. Why? The men approaching are good looking alpha males.
Jules,
Do you really think beta males are getting treated so much worse even in relationships?
@Alice YES!!!!!! It is a fact Alice. But, I guess women do not see it. Or pretend not to see it. Men love sex. But I think women ONLY think alpha men like a lot of sex. Look at how free Sarah was prepared to fuck the cop. She did not even think enough of him to date him! Hey, but she would fuck him in a heartbeat. How many beta guys do you think are treated like this Alice? Honestly. Even after the relationship starts or the man gets married, he has to earn sex. But, not the alpha… Read more »
@Alice.. YES!!!! It is true Alice. How many women are willing to just give away sex, as Sarah wants with the cop, to beta males? Seriously. I really think it is just strange that a woman does not mind having sex with a man whom they care very little, but holds back sex for the man whom they hold in high regard. It is like giving special treatment to a criminal but being tough on law abiding citizens. This is why so many men, such as myself, eschew relationships. I want the same access to sex as the alpha male.… Read more »
Jules, you are totally misconstruing my anecdote about the cop. First, he’s a friend of mine. He is not someone who I care nothing for. I’ve known him for 8 years. We worked together. Yes I have a crush on him, but the point of my story was that I would never date him because I know he would cheat on me, also he’s married and I’m in a relationship. It’s a fantasy. I’m entitled to fantasize about meaningless sex with a hot guy I’m attracted to. My point is that women have those fantasies too. For what it’s worth,… Read more »
What I got from your anecdote was how easy many women offer up sex to certain men (those whom they are merely attracted to but do not wish to date) verses decent men whom they wish to date. The later has to earn every damn thing. But the former is just given sex freely. Call it what you wish Sarah (alpha-beta dichotomy……whatever), but I am speaking the truth. I just cannot for the life of me understand why a woman would make sex easy for an undesirable man but difficult for a desirable one. I has to be a woman… Read more »
Well, men often want sex with someone they are attracted to but they think a relationship with her would be too much trouble. She’s a psycho, she’s a slut, she’s too unstable, she’s a drama queen, or they know she’d be too high maintenance for them to deal with. But they are perfectly willing to have sex with her anyway. Well, women sometimes feel the same way. We’re attracted to a guy, but we know that a relationship with him would never, ever work. But he might be good for a fling. Then we meet a guy we are attracted… Read more »
I’ve never understood it either. If a woman is a slut for sleeping with you on the first date, then so are you because you did the exact same thing. But there’s a word for guys like that, who will judge you for giving them what they want: asshole. As Bill Clinton said, “it takes some brass to [judge a girl] for doing what you did.” This is a no-win situation for any woman who wants to be fully sexual yet also preserve the possibility of having loving, meaningful relationships with men. My attitude now is that sleeping with a… Read more »
I totally botched that, even after re-reading it three times. Option (1a) should be:
(1a) If you do sleep with him on the first date and he doesn’t contact you again, you’ve invested very little in him and have weeded him out early. You win.
I respect your view on this Sarah.
On a personal level, I just cannot see the world of dating, sex, and relationships through a woman’s eyes. Many women cannot understand my view of the matters. So, I have not been able to really deal with women since my divorce other than FWBs.
I am not blaming women. I just don’t get it. Nor will I ever.
Thanks for sharing. No need to respond.
It also affects guys too in the sense that if we want sex too early, she thinks we only want her for sex, too late and she might feel rejected or ugly. It’s a silly dynamic. I hate slut-shaming. Thanks for illustrating it all better.
@Nick Pavlidis, you make good points. My problem is that if I follow option (1) and have sex with a guy and never get even a follow up, “hello how are you” phone call, I know I will feel like SH!T. It’s only happened to me a couple times and I don’t want to repeat the experience. I think — didn’t he like me? Was the sex bad? Did he think I was FAT? Does he think I’m a slut? I mean, the stuff that goes through my head is not pretty. It’s definitely not worth whatever brief pleasure I… Read more »
Sorry, my win-loss analysis is too shallow to deal with the intricacies of our personal psychologies and the various insecurities we all hold. Key to (1a) being a win is the ability to recognize that guy as an asshole and instead of allowing crippling self-doubt to creep in, recognize him as such and adopt an attitude of “good riddance!” and maybe even adding, “the sex wasn’t even all that good.” Guys are taught to do this when they’re rejected; the guys who can’t become embittered and hostile towards women. You see, even if the sex was bad, even if you… Read more »
Good points, Nick, but what if you ARE one of those women who, as mentioned on this thread, most people see as a “3.” The kind, according to this thread, who is good as a filler for sex while you’re looking for someone attractive enough to actually be relationship material. If you ARE looking for something more, it would get discouraging and exhausting to be that filler for a string of guys who, as you said, are assholes. I think you’d even get embittered after a while. To add to that, for many women, first time sex isn’t that great.… Read more »
Yes, my advice is really about learning how to develop a “thick skin” and that will be easier for some, harder for others. It’s not that you just brush off all criticism; a large part of a thick skin is learning how to recognize legitimate and invalid criticism and ignoring the latter. This is particularly difficult for sensitive people, who are naturally inclined to be introspective about their behavior and how others perceive them. But you’ve hit on the real issue here. It’s not a question of whether men have it easier or women do: attractive people have it easier.… Read more »
“It has to be a woman thing. It simply defies logic!”
Sorry for the typo.
“Guys who spam 100′s of women will get a lot of rejection. Why not focus on sending targeted ads to women who might actually be interested, instead of spamming every woman who looks attractive?”
Ah, yes, the ‘spray and pray’ method. It must work once in a while, like the Nigerian scam must work once in a while.
I don’t understand — people have done random trials of online dating where a girl in the bottom quartile of physical attractiveness got more responses than a dude who was rated in the top quintile of physical attractiveness. In other words, a really unattractive girl STILL gets responses than men. Equally attractive men and women? The woman gets more attention hands down. Let’s put it this way — I firmly doubt, on the grounds of what I’ve seen empirically and on the basis of these sorts of trials, that any woman would exchange places with her equally physically attractive male… Read more »
I don’t know where this idea is coming from that women are more shallow than men. I personally don’t adhere to that stereotype (I fall in love with minds, not faces), and most people that I know don’t. I think in this case a lot of people are confusing pickiness with shallowness. A woman might be choosy because she’s waiting to find someone she has good chemistry with, someone to love and have a relationship with. In that sense she’s pickier than the “average guy,” but that’s because what she’s actually looking for is very different (ie, she’s buying a… Read more »
It must come from the same place from where comes the de facto assumption that women’s relationships are somehow deeper “because they want more than just sex”.
I am a bit distrubed and disappointed by the amount of men that are laying claim that FwB is about respecting women. When did treating women casually become respectful? Or are these guys just lying to themselves to make themselves feel better about just using a woman for sex? I understand that if two people agree to the arangement that is their business. But sorry, if you only want to hump a woman with a few nuggest of “friendship” attached so you can hump another woman another night, that isn’t respecting women and that’s not “friendship”. That’s called just getting… Read more »
It’s about as respectful as the women that agree to these relationships I suppose. Now you’ve commented on guys that will borderline manipulate women in order to get sex and I’m with you on how immoral that can get. However if all he wants is sex and all she wants is sex then both of them are “humping with a few nuggets of ‘friendship'”. But I guess now women are expected to think that f-buddy sistuations are all about how much he “respects” her..yeah okay..but I fail to see how that’s being “respectful”. When they are both agreeing to the… Read more »
“That’s called just getting what you want without having to really give anything solid of yourself. But I guess now women are expected to think that f-buddy sistuations are all about how much he “respects” her..yeah okay..but I fail to see how that’s being “respectful”.” Because you see a man having to commit to a certain level to be worthy of sex, whilst many people do not share that view (many do share it though, it’s not wrong, just different). But what you’re actually doing though is disrespecting the people involved by assuming they are not respecting women. How are… Read more »
I guess your harsh judgements of me are okay Archy right? You’re allowed to tell me who I respect and don’t respect and I’m not allowed to tell others what I think is respect? You are allowed to judge me harshly and tell me I am a man hater right? Conversations with you are inevitably futile. For me, when I see either men or women that are specifically interested in just casual sexual relationships, to me, it’s like a part of them is stunted. They aren’t in casual sexual relationships because they are so eager to “give” pleasure or otherwise.… Read more »
If you would just append ‘for me’ after each of your statements I think no one would have a problem with what you’re saying. Where people are disagreeing with you, and where I felt that you were being “uncharitable” is that you appear to be making blanket statements about what men want and what women want and what is and isn’t respectful and what would happen if so and so… No. Casual relationships are not all just sex and nothing else. The form of the relationship is up to the people involved. For some it will be “just sex” while… Read more »
“If you would just append ‘for me’ after each of your statements I think no one would have a problem with what you’re saying. Where people are disagreeing with you, and where I felt that you were being “uncharitable” is that you appear to be making blanket statements about what men want and what women want and what is and isn’t respectful and what would happen if so and so…” YES. THIS x 1000. That is what I’ve been trying to tell Erin all along. “Which brings me to the women in FWB situations that want something more. Don’t do… Read more »
Nick, what is the point in using “for me”? You already know the opinion is from me, right? You said: “Where people are disagreeing with you…” What people are disagreeing with me? You realize there are people that have also agreed with me right? I find this comment interesting especially above you suggest I qualify my statements with “for me”. How is it then that it’s okay for you to speak for others but it’s not okay when I do? You see that right? I make generalizations. I have already told Archy this. I am not looking to point out… Read more »
I am well aware that no everyone wants relationships to be long term. The basis of a non-serious relationship is because someone want to get more from a person then they want to give. If a person truly wanted to give something of themselves, they wouldn’t have casual relationships. So I do not believe that casual relationships can exist in a “respect” field because the essence of casual relationships is about the ego first, the “me”. Are you familiar with the bonobo? The book Bonobo Handshake by Vanessa Woods contains, among other things, a recounting of bonobo society and interactions.… Read more »
“You say casual relationships can’t be based in respect because they’re about the ego first. I would counter that every relationship is about the ego first. You want someone to commit to you because of why? So you can have security? So you know that they’re dedicated to you, and won’t leave as soon as they see a better deal walk by? To be able to make long term plans? What is it about what you want to give them that requires they commit to you? Requiring a commitment from someone isn’t an act of altruism, and so I submit… Read more »
Nick, would you have a casual relationship with a woman that didn’t include sex? Lets say it’s not exactly a friendship, although you two might have a friendship. In this relationship, you two do things together in terms of just the two of you going out to dinner, movies, museums, shopping, sporting events…whatever interests you. You two see each other casually with no promises about who else you can see outside of that. You two don’t have sex. Is this a type of relationship you would be interested in just as much as a casual one based in sex? How… Read more »
It’s probably important to ask why some men only want casual relationships. Is it fear of being “tied down”? Did they come out of a relationship where the woman was extremely controlling and smothering? Are they suffering a broken heart where sex can help give a quick bit of pleasure but they’re afraid to fall in love again? My reason for being OPEN to the idea of casual sex is that if I can’t find a long term relationship, I’d rather feel some degree of intimacy with someone, share some degree of pleasure vs being alone. Not all of it… Read more »
“It’s probably important to ask why some men only want casual relationships. ” Maybe biology? “there is enjoyment in just having companionship, talking, laughing, watching a movie, doing stuff like I dunno…driving around n seeing the sights? ” If thats what its about, why not just be friends and leave sex out? “I have known of guys that pump n dump and they end up in relationships with someone they slept with in the first night. Usually they meet at a club, go back to one of their homes n bang away, sometimes they’ll continue it as a casual thing,… Read more »
“If thats what its about, why not just be friends and leave sex out?” Add sex and the relationship can be better. “Does it make it ok he may have gone through a number of women just to get that one girlfriend? I slept with a guy on the first night, and frankly, I wouldnt recommend it to anyone. Turns out the guy had major issues! Ive also dealt with men who are willing to wait, and its a world of difference. ” I don’t agree with his choices, but simply stating what he did. But framing it as going… Read more »
@Archy “Add sex and the relationship can be better. ” Not really, in my experience. Sex can make it harder to get to know someone. I think men and women generally may have different ideas of what relationships/friendships should entail, but that’s for another thread. I actually have arrangement with a few guys, and they would tell you that we have this great relationship or that we’re great friends…We’re not! lol These guys probably couldn’t tell you my favorite color. ” don’t agree with his choices, but simply stating what he did. But framing it as going through a number… Read more »
Nick, would you have a casual relationship with a woman that didn’t include sex? Lets say it’s not exactly a friendship, although you two might have a friendship. In this relationship, you two do things together in terms of just the two of you going out to dinner, movies, museums, shopping, sporting events…whatever interests you. You two see each other casually with no promises about who else you can see outside of that. You two don’t have sex. Not only would I be interested, but I have a couple such friends. One woman comes to mind who I respect an… Read more »
Nick, how regularly do you get together with these female friends of yours? And what are your reasons for not being interested in sex with them but enjoying other aspects of who they are in your friendship? In my experience, most men are more interested in casual sexual relationships with women then relationships where a man purely enjoys a woman’s wit, charm or humor independent of sex. I don’t think most men would have relationships with women as often if sex wasn’t in the equation for them. Perhaps this would be a great question for this very website. That way… Read more »
You have to underestand Nick, your marriage isn’t the “norm”, it’s going to draw forth questions about your life style out of a desire to understand. I of course understand if you don’t want to answer anything too personal. However, out of a desire to understand the workings of your relationship, I have asked certain questions.
Nick, how regularly do you get together with these female friends of yours? And what are your reasons for not being interested in sex with them but enjoying other aspects of who they are in your friendship? As often as I can, although over the years some of us have moved away which makes it more difficult. But my reasons for being friends with them are the same as my reasons for having male friends: I enjoy their company. In my experience, most men are more interested in casual sexual relationships with women then relationships where a man purely enjoys… Read more »
@Erin..WOW!! What depth of though you have written here. I love it! Kudos!! You certainly made some very very strong points Erin. I am a man who loves the FWB arrangement. However, we are friends and have been so for several years. So, prior to our relationship turning sexual (initiated by her) we were close friends. However, in the name of full disclosure, I was married most of the years. Only in the past two years did it become sexual (after my divorce). Now, as to how many guys would have a friendship (casual or otherwise) with a woman without… Read more »
Gotta correct your science here. We all have 50% of our genes from femake ancestors and 50% from male ancestors. Anything else is biologically impossible. What you are referring to is genetic research that indicates that say if you go back 20,000 years and look at the people who were alive then, 80% of the women have living descendants today but only 40% if the males have living descendants. That reflects that historically it was more difficult for males to reproduce and they may have had fewer offspring on average given polygamous social structures, and higher rates of death among… Read more »
OK. I stand corrected.
Thanks.
Jules, I want to thank you. That despite you not always agreeing with me or I with you, you always remain respectful and we can appreciate what the other says regardless! I agree with you though. Very few men would want a relationship with a woman if it wasn’t bond in sex. Which is sad in a way, but it is true. If alot of men really appreciated other things in women, then this wouldn’t be true. I think people get married probably for a billion reasons, they don’t think they will find someone better, they want kids and a… Read more »
“If alot of men really appreciated other things in women, then this wouldn’t be true.”
I will not disagree Erin. But, it is double-edged sword for a lot of men, if not most.
Men have higher sex drives than women. I am convinced of this. Second, most men are undersexed. Hence, our preoccupation with sex.
As selfish as this might sound, men are not going to be interested in getting to know a woman until he gets sex. Not the other way around.
“I guess your harsh judgements of me are okay Archy right?” When you go as far to say people in/who want casual relationships do not respect women, then yes I make a harsh judgment of you. It basically includes me in it, assuming I don’t respect women because I can possibly have a casual relationship. It’s extremely insulting, would you like me to say you don’t respect men because you have a very shallow view of what a relationship including sex should be? That’d be ridiculous, just as what you said is. “If it was about respecting and giving, these… Read more »
Archy, I said nothing about being married and having kids having to be the final result of a relationship. Casual relationships aren’t about “sharing”. There is a reason people keep them casual and separate themselves from the other person. And it’s not because they want to “share” or give something of themselves to that other person. You also seem to think that casual relationships must always include sex since both your examples showcased this. This tells me that the casual relationships are more about sex then anything else. If what you were saying was really sincere, then couldn’t casual relationships… Read more »
PS Archy, I would be very careful about what you criticize others for when you critcize them for behavior you choose to engage in your self.
There’s a word for casual relationships that include hanging out, doing stuff together and so on but No Sex Ever. They’re called friendships, you can have them with men, women or anything in between, and they’re great.
But they’re not what we’re talking about here.
“How many men do you think would have casual relationships with women where they took a woman out to dinner and didn’t have sex with her and be happy with that exchange? *snip*” No idea, some? I’d go on a friendly casual date like that as long as we both know what’s what. It’d beat being at home bored shitless on a weekend, goto the movies, etc. It does lack certain parts of intimacy that separate friendship and a relationship, would it be defined as friends, friends with benefits, or no definition? Is it dating, or 2 friends going out?… Read more »
@Erin..
“Would men still want casual relationships if sex was off the table. I sincerely wonder about that.”
No! Just being honest here. I say the majority of men would eschew such relationships.
Men usually have more numerous relationships, but they are quite shallow in nature. Women, I believe, value fewer relationships with considerable depth.
I just do not see we men having many women in these casual relationships unless their is sex.
Would men still want casual relationships if sex was off the table. I sincerely wonder about that.
Hell yes I would. Contrary to common thought there’s more to it than sex. The closeness. The cuddling. The kissing. The just sitting down together and chatting or watching tv. There is a lot to that and it doesn’t involve sex.
@Danny
I think you are the exception. I hardly know of any men, except gay homosexual men, who would kiss and cuddle with a woman and not want sex. A man is bound to get aroused!
Sorry but I just find this to be very idealistic, at best.
I was just having this conversation with a friend. There is a guy I know who I totally have a crush on. He’s incredibly sexy and also incredibly nice — one of those guys the PUA’s call a “natural” I think. He’s a cop (yes there are nice cops!) and he has women swarming around him all the time. He flirts with me a lot. I told my friend that if I wasn’t in a relationship, I’d totally have sex with this guy, (if he wanted to, which I don’t know – he flirts with everyone so it might not… Read more »
@Sarah Radford “Does that mean I don’t respect him? I don’t know. It’s an interesting question. I think I’d still respect him but I’d also be using him, in a way, but he doesn’t want a “relationship” with me so I don’t think I’d hurt his feelings.” No! I do not think so at all. Nor are you using him in my view. This is where I disagree with Erin above. While she has a lot of very strong point, I just think as consenting adults, we can make our own decisions about this. Where I have a real issue… Read more »
That’s where things get tricky for women. If I meet a guy who I’d like to date, I want to be sure he feels the same way before I hop into bed with him. Orherwise, if it turns out he only wanted me for sex, I will be hurt and disappointed. So waiting to have sex in that case is a way to protect my own emotional well being. I like sex but I think it is not really worth it to have sex and then have to deal with everything being awkward and confusing and hurtful because you and… Read more »
No more slutty than the guys who have sex with you on a first date. Looking on the bright side, at least you find out on the first date that he’s an ass. Can you imagine waiting until date 5 or 6, when you’ve got a bit more invested, and then you find out? (obviously it would be best to find out before date 1, but that’s not always possible)
I think the women are saying that having sex is a huge investment so learning he’s an ass after that hurts anyway, 1st or 6th date.
@ Jules I just do not get the LOWERING of standards for sex with someone whom you would NOT even want to date. But RAISING the standards for sex with someone whom you WOULD date. Just makes no sense to me, at all. I’ll go all evopsych on you and say that it makes biological sense. To reproduce happily, women need two things: – Good male genes – Good provider of resources Ideally the woman would obtain both from the same male specimen, but this isn’t often the case in our world of dashing alpha males (who gladly spread their… Read more »
@S-252 “Get it?” No, I do not. In reality the RAISED standard is for the beta male provider and not the dashing alpha male. If I read you correctly, you stated it is the exact opposite. Of course Sarah above says it has zippy to do with any of what you wrote above. The whole damn thing is just awful and awfully confusing. How is it relevant to the power in dating thingy? Well, in my view I think it creates the perception among beta males (the most numerous) that there is really nothing to be gained by providing their… Read more »
“With respect to the cuckoldry. I read where in the US some 20-25% of children born in marriages are not the biological offspring of the husband.”
I haven’t seen any data for this, it may be true though. On the data I have seen is that 1/4 or so of those who get paternity tests find out it isn’t their biological child, and they would probably have their suspicions already arroused. I’d love to see a randomized study done, it’d be interesting to see how many men get cuckolded.
I have been involved in some geneaology groups where peopke get DNA tests to determine ancestry. In one study we did, out of a group of around men whose ancestry was well documented, we got anamolous results in about 5%. And most of those we later concluded were the result of a girl in the family tree having a child out of wedlock and her son being raised as her brother. There are usually clues that point to that happening. The rate of “cuckoldry” — married woman getting pregnant by another man – seemed to be very, very low, virtually… Read more »
Sry, group of around 40 men. Typing on phone
What is equally baffling is: Sarah does not seem to have an issue with being viewed as slutty by the cop. But, why not? A man views you as slutty, just not the one whom you want to date. Again, this is the twisted logic only of a woman! How is this twisted, Jules? A random person or someone I’m not invested in thinks I’m slutty (or dumb, a jerk, a bitch, etc). If someone I have a true interest in or care about (a big crush, a boss, a family member, a partner, a potential partner, a good friend)… Read more »
I meant to add that I wouldn’t care that much for the first part (the random person or someone I’m not invested in). Why do I care what they think of me. Someone I care about, on the other hand–it matters so much more.
Sorry for the string of comments, but about the ‘cop.’ If I feel the way Sarah does about a guy like that. We have sex, but I have no interest in him as a long-term partner. We both put that out there and set no expectations. We’re honest about our intentions. Afterwards, he calls. Cool. Afterwards, he doesn’t call. Cool. If, on the other hand, I have sex with someone I’m really interested in or good friends with and he doesn’t call, I’m devastated. I wonder what I did wrong. I sit at home moping, crying, eating pints of ice… Read more »
@ Jules No, I do not. In reality the RAISED standard is for the beta male provider and not the dashing alpha male. If I read you correctly, you stated it is the exact opposite. The standards are different between NSA sex and relationsips. For boring beta providers, it’s nearly impossible and soul-crushing to get NSA sex, but a bit less impossible and soul-crushing to get into a long term relationship. (“If you want to have sex with me, you’ll have to pay for it with dedication, sweat and labor!”) For dashing alpha males, it’s easy to get NSA sex,… Read more »
This is easy to answer, they probably want to feel special with the guy they want, fullstop. Low standards doesn’t make them special.
OK Archy, lets assume you are correct, then why does it not register with the woman just how that makes the beta male feel? I am 50 and divorced two years ago. What I have learned about women over the past 5 years has left a profound and negative taste in my mouth about their real character and their commitment to “fair play.” This is why so many men now just go for the sex! Many of us know we are going to get the second class treatment. NEVER WILL WE ENJOY THE SEXUAL SATISFACTION THESE WOMEN GAVE TO ALPHA… Read more »
Do you think this happens with modern day women, or mainly women of the past? Since women now earn their own money, etc, and we’re hopefully raising women who don’t NEED a man, do you think the majority of young women will be looking for an equal, not an alpha?
@Archy.. I really do not know. I suspect it is with all women to be honest. It just seems that women want to fuck Mr. Alpha or any man whom they just feel attracted to, even if he is not dating material. Fine. I do not have a problem with that Archy. The problem I have is that very same woman will turn around a criticize men for just wanting to fuck women whom they (men) are attracted to. This I have a MAJOR problem with. I just cannot, will not, and shall not accept it. Here in the US,… Read more »
@ Archy Since women now earn their own money, etc, and we’re hopefully raising women who don’t NEED a man, do you think the majority of young women will be looking for an equal, not an alpha? Indeed. With technology, we have been able to build a society that can provide enough comfortable desk jobs for everyone, and especially women. Have you ever heard any woman complain how male dominated the coal mines are? So yes, we now have women that can earn their own money, thanks to the carefully built infrastructure that provides goodness without back-breaking, potentially lethal labor.… Read more »
“Have you ever heard any woman complain how male dominated the coal mines are? ”
No, I haven’t seen a single one complain of that. Furthermore I’ve seen plenty of feminists show anger at the lack of women in STEM fields but not a single one showing desire to join the men in the coal mines and other dirty or highly laborous jobs. Seems they just want the most attractive jobs…
[Satire alert]
Sarah,
How horrible. Your gaze is objectifying and exploiting him. He’s obviously just a sex object to you and not a person. If only you could see the privilege you’re exercising over his body and his identity. It’s probably the porn you’ve been consuming that’s poisoned your perception of men. When will you see that men are people too, not just objects for your gratification?
: – )
Haha, well yeah, women can be shallow too! 🙂
As long as you don’t lie/lead him on then you can still respect him fully. You don’t need to have a long term relationship with someone to value them and respect them. You can both mutually agree to a short term thing. Not everyone is compatible for a long term relationship but they may be compatible for something short term or casual, even just a physical relationship can still be respectful.
Honesty, sincerity, transparency, following boundaries, and negotiation are respectful. If he lies about the fact that he’s just interested in a physical relationship, that’s disrespectful. If he’s open about his wants and she agrees and they work out something they both enjoy, then that’s not disrespectful of anyone.
Perhaps the assumption is that if she just wants something physical then she’s not respecting herself?
It would also be disrespectful if she only wanted a physical relationship and he kept telling people she was his girlfriend. Dishonesty in the other direction is just as bad.
Interesting article. 2 different topics on my mind here. I don’t want to subscribe to an “all men are like x” or “all women are like y” mindset, but my observation and experience in the last few years is: One- while women may decide whether there’s a second date, and when/if it gets physical, men decide everything else. Whether and when it’s exclusive, dating vs relationship, whether and when you move in, spend holidays together, get engaged, etc., etc. As a woman, ask “where is this going?” at your peril. AKA, the more smitten they are in the beginning, the… Read more »
“If you like him and want to see him you have to take up his hobbies on his schedule. ” It’s because guys of that age finally get the balls to stand up to women who demand way too much time. I have friends who barely have time to themselves now, can barely do hobbies because their women want to spend every waking moment with them, and if they do their hobby one day a week they cop the “You don’t spend enough time with me” horseshit. It’s not male privilege, it’s probably female entitlement if anything, HUMANS need solo… Read more »
I tend to pick up the hobbies of the men I date (usually gaming related stuff, food, and tastes in music). At the very least, I try and understand them and/or accompany. I actually thought that made me a better partner, not a worse one. It’s fun to be able to share stuff with each other. You’re not always going share it at the start, but it can be really fun to grow together. I did date a guy who would cancel dates/events I’d planned and was excited about so that he could play an MMO. Good for him for… Read more »
Sharing a hobby is ok, you can still do it alone. The problem comes when he HAS to be there with you sooooo much and you smother him with attention. I like gaming, wood working, photography, fishing, driving, etc, my partner can like those too and it’d be ok because I don’t have to be there for her to enjoy those hobbies, they’re still her hobbies.
As I see it. If you wan’t to have a more equal dating experience then women would need to approach at LEAST 60% of the time. Why? 1. You women hate the way alot of guys think. You feel that you are just a number or do not feel special enough, etc, etc. The reason we think this way is not because of cultural reasons or because we are jerks. We think this way because we HAVE to approach. ALOT. Espacially if we want anything to happen in our lovelife. So you are wondering why YOU should approach, if it… Read more »
As to the men always have orgasms during sex, I actually got laid this weekend (The first time in almost 3 years) and she orgasmed TWICE and I orgasmed 0 times. So for all you women out there who say men are always going to get an orgasm, it simply isn’t true. I didn’t orgasm, but I still had a great time because SHE had a great time! Believe it or not, sex feels great even if you don’t orgasm as a guy.
@Collin
Your experience doesn’t change the fact that the vast majority of the time men orgasm very easily. Men sometimes do have problems reaching an orgasm. Age is a factor. Men over 50 will most likely have more difficulty than a 25 year old men. Sometimes men don’t O the first time they have sex with a new partner. Other than that it pretty much happens for a man.
I’m 23 just so you know. You’d actually be surprised how many men actually have difficulty achieving orgasm. It doesn’t “pretty much happen.” Is it less finicky than female orgasms? Yes. Does it “just happen?” No, it does not.
@Collin…
Are you a heavy porn user? Studies (some) show a correlation between men who watch a lot of porn and lack of orgasm.
Also, heavy porn use by young men has now been found to be linked to ED! However, the ED only occurs when the man is with a real woman.
Define heavy…
It could also be the fact that I was fairly drunk.
again, Alice, orgasm and ejaculation are not the same thing. but, hey you go right on telling actual guys that you understand how our sexual organs work better than we do.
Hafta ask though, when was the last time *you* experienced an orgasm, as a man? this may be cisnormative of me, and if so I’ll cop to it, but I’m going to hazard a guess that the answer is “never”
@8ball
“orgasm and ejaculation are not the same thing. but, hey you go right on telling actual guys that you understand how our sexual organs work better than we do.”
But I thought most of the time ejaculation was part of a man’s orgasm. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
“Hafta ask though, when was the last time *you* experienced an orgasm”
Last week, actually!
as a man?
@Alice “But I thought most of the time ejaculation was part of a man’s orgasm. Please correct me if I’m wrong.” That’s what I’ve *been* doing. Yes, ejaculation and orgasm usually go together, however they are not the same thing and it is entirely possible to have one without the other. This (and I’m sorry if this is TMI) is how male pornstars get those massive 8 gallon explosions that are so favored in mainstream porn videos. In fact, considering how widespread this misconception *is* I’m beginning to wonder how many men are out there who have never actually felt… Read more »
@8ball
Could it be that there is some kind of *trickery* going on in porn? I don’t think porn is a good gauge of what happens in real life.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen one go without the other, though I’m sure it has happened. I have seen no erection + ejaculation. I’m pretty sure with me the guy has always orgasm and ejaculated!
I was just listening to the Sex Nerd Sandra podcast on this very topic. The urologist they were interviewing doesn’t believe the two are separable, although he suggested that with age there is a decrease in ejaculation and that certain issues, such as enlargement of the prostate, might cause problems with emptying of the seminal vesicles. Here’s what I can say from personal experience; others may have different experiences that confirm or counter my own. The sensation of orgasm for me is coincident with ejaculation, although it often precedes it by about 1-2 seconds. The intensity of the orgasm is… Read more »
There is a stereotype that men are purely physical, that all they need is a warm hole and a few minutes and they can get off” The stereotype persists because a lot of the time it’s true. Ive already discussed “couch dates.” Theres a saying that all a woman needs to do to turn on a man is show up. Theres also “Men think p%$$# has no face” and “Men will screw anything. ” Theres also “A man wants every woman to fill his one need.” They may be exaggerations, but there is a very, very good reason they persist.… Read more »
Stereotypes like women want alphas, women are gold diggers, women always marry up, women cheat and cuckold, are these exaggerations or are there very good reasons why these common themes of women persist? “Guys come here and say they will have sex with a girl they don’t like,they’d possibly be open to sexing a woman with a mental conditon.” You mean don’t like in a dating way, just physical? Some men’s standards can be simply physical, it appears women have much higher standards which isn’t always a good thing especially when it gets to the point you hear some of… Read more »
“Stereotypes like women want alphas, women are gold diggers, women always marry up, women cheat and cuckold, are these exaggerations or are there very good reasons why these common themes of women persist?” I’ll be honest and say yes. A lot of times stereotypes do have truth in them. I’ll even add one to your list “Women are materialistic.” Stereotypes aren’t true all the time for every single person, but usually truth in them. In that instance I meant don’t like as far as personality. “Some men’s standards can be simply physical” I see, but that one’s even pretty low.… Read more »
There are some contradictory messages we men get. First we’re too picky about women we want, now we aren’t picky enough:P We only want hotties yet we want just anyone.
If stereotypes bore no resemblance to what we see, they wouldn’t survive. Yet sometimes those stereotypes reflect a surface reality, rather than any objective truth. Take the idea that men just want sex. I don’t actually think this is true, but it appears to be true. I think that’s because men are less discriminating about sex, have less reticence to engaging in casual sex, and are more motivated by sex. Being motivated by sex and only wanting sex aren’t the same thing, although to those women not gifted with mind reading capabilities they may very well look the same. I’m… Read more »
For the record, a lot of those huge ejaculation scenes are fake. Quantity varies by person and by age, certainly, and avoiding ejaculation for some amount of time will lead to build up of seminal fluid, but the seminal vesicles – which account for the bulk of ejaculate volume – are only so large. The typical male will only ejaculate between 2 and 6 mL of fluid.
@Nick Pavlidis
I thought so. I’ve heard a lot of the times their organs arent even real.
Yes, they have these penis sheaths that are fitted with a tube to “ejaculate” the large quantities of “semen.” I don’t know what it is they’re actually ejaculating, nor am I at all motivated to find out.
Which is it. Is it the men with whom you’ve had experience, or are you extrapolating to men in general based on those with whom you’ve had experience? Or perhaps you’re saying the plurality of men with whom you’ve had experience have behaved in a certain way? I’d like to know that too. Alice says men wouldn’t pursue sex without a guarantee of an orgasm, and yet there is no guarantee. If I wanted a guaranteed orgasm no one knows better how to get me there than I do. It’s cheaper than a date, far less hassle than having to… Read more »
There’s a thing called “motivated reasoning” and different people do it to varying extents. Consider this quote from David Redlawsk: We often ignore new contradictory information, actively argue against it or discount its source, all in an effort to maintain existing evaluations. Reasoning away contradictions this way is psychologically easier than revising our feelings. In this sense, our emotions color how we perceive “facts.” This is why I don’t trust my emotions, and I privilege rational argument over emotional reasoning. It’s difficult for some to accept that you aren’t being dismissive of their experience, that you can still feel empathy… Read more »
Another reason for the animosity is the selective nature of our emotional memories. We tend to remember the times we were rejected much more than we remember the times we rejected someone else. It’s easy to hold a grudge towards someone who turned you down, because you immediately forget any of the times you were in that person’s position. If you ever rebuffed someone, then of course when you did it then it was absolutely necessary and appropriate, but if someone rebuffs you, well that person is just heartless and privileged. _I_ would never do anything so cruel to someone’s… Read more »
As for the talk of privilege, I think the hammering of the word towards women having privilege in dating is a reflection of the way that men are regularly beat over the head with it and silenced by women. How many guys have been told they are still privileged in face of trying to tell stories of being abused/raped by women? How many guys have been told they are still privileged in the face of wanting to spend time with their children but being actively denied the chance? How many guys have been told they are still privileged in the… Read more »
I give you credit for being honest about your reaction anyway.
Personally I get sick of the word “privilege” and I wish women as well as men would just retire it. It is usually a jargony over-simplification at best. It’s become a buzzword rendered meaningless by repetition. At worst it’s used adversarially like “nyah nyah shut up you privileged ‘X’.”
Okay about the whole arguing that men have it worse and trying to deny the experiences of women I think a source (if not the source) is a matter of a train wreck of a multiple factors: 1. Men having their experiences denied. 2. Men supposedly having the pleasure of everything being about men. 3. The highlighting of women’s experiences. (which seems to happen with 1 alot). 4. A desire to give the other side a taste of their own medicine. 5. Men desiring to have their experiences talked about (which conflicts with 2). 6. Not knowing how to work… Read more »
I agree that this pretty much sums it up. And personally, I am dismayed by all this (as with some of the other anti-male articles on TGMP). I am sure most women commenting here are well meaning, but this highlights the difficulty in trying to get women to *really* understand. Although, personally, I am less concerned about convincing women then about keeping a robust and honest discussion among the men. Not because the women don’t matter, but because the solution will come from men. It has to. Perhaps in the same way that feminism had to come from women. You… Read more »
Although, personally, I am less concerned about convincing women then about keeping a robust and honest discussion among the men. Not because the women don’t matter, but because the solution will come from men. It has to. Oh I’m all for robust and honest discussion among men. I think the problem isin the midst of men trying to come up with that solution there are women that are hell bent on putting in their say so in a way they would simply not stand for done in reverse (however I must say that most of the women that hang around… Read more »
I think this article touched a nerve because everyone has experienced deep frustration and loneliness in their dating life. I admit it is hard for me when someone tells me I’m “privileged” as a woman because I haven’t felt privileged. I am not a hottie and most of my life I’ve felt ignored and rejected by most men. I’m too tall, too geeky, struggle with my weight, I have a large Scandinavian peasant frame (large hands, big hips etc.) Yes there was the time I tried online dating and was overwhelmed by email but it didn’t feel like a privilege,… Read more »
I think men have a similar reaction to the comments from women. It’s like we are all crying out “please understand my pain.” I think that’s an excellent summation of this discussion, and while it’s been frustrating at times and a monster to follow in this format, I do feel like *some* understanding has increased on both sides. I feel like mine has. Not that I know what to do with that, but it feels better than understanding even less. I’ll reiterate something I said in one of my earliest comments, which is that I think the real answer to… Read more »
The problem is that it’s a lot harder for a man to demonstrate attractiveness.
When looks are all that matter, then sure. But the “male gaze” is what makes women stand out for men immediately — even a woman who is only average looking. Whereas the average guy doesn’t stand out by looks. He has to win her by personality. And for that he needs at least some time with her. So no, really, I don’t think we can say it’s a hot vs. not-hot thing.
Good attempt at raising the cheer though… 😀
Sarah, I think this highlights why one must be overly wary with extrapolating too much from personal experience. I don’t mean to be dismissive of your own situation. Not in the slightest. But by your own admission, it seems like you have (somewhat) anomalous characteristics. Enough to put you outside of the average. (Or did I misunderstand?) And I think averages are the important thing to consider. Here’s the thing: you “went on a bunch of dates.” In other words, you had suitors, and you had the opportunity to show them what you’re like. You might have missed with them… Read more »
i think what frustrates me about this comment thread are the over generalizations. “All women have it easy” “All men are cads” etc. As Marcus points out, it’s the highly attractive people who have the advantages while everyone else struggles. I was giving a personal example of how not all women have it that easy, but your response is that I’m just an outlier and that doesn’t disprove that most other women have it easy. Sigh. Don ‘t get me wrong, I don’t think I’m hideous or unusually ugly, just “not hot”. I’m not atypically “not hot.” But really my… Read more »
Sarah: How many times would you say that you have been approached? I would consider myself a 7 in looks (not from personal observation) and am 45. I have been approached about 7 times in my life. Every single time was a huge ego-boost. Since you have declared yourself outside the “preferred pool of hotties” or whatever term you may want to apply, I was wondering if you could share the information of how many times you have been approached. There is no doubt that upper tier people (in looks, money etc..) do much better than others, but the poster… Read more »
John, if you read my comment, I said I’m not arguing about “who has it worse.” I will concede that women get approached by men more than visa versa. I would guess I have been “approached” in the sense of a strange guy trying to engage me In conversation maybe 1-2 times a year during years when I was looking my best. Never at all during years when I was not looking great. I can only think of 4-5 times in my life where a strange guy went so far as asking for my phone number or asked me on… Read more »
Hey Sarah. You wrote: “Maybe that sounds awesome to a guy(500 emails), but honestly, it was kind of a nightmare. I had no good way to sort through all the emails or pick people to reply to, I did go on a bunch of dates but I didn’t end up meeting anyone I liked and who liked me” Honestly, to me that sounds like movie stars complaining about their issues of moving around in public. If you say that you haven’t been approached very often, then that is obviously your reality. A lot of my premises may be effed up,… Read more »
I think that the most important thing Sarah said was this: “I would guess I have been “approached” in the sense of a strange guy trying to engage me In conversation maybe 1-2 times a year during years when I was looking my best. Never at all during years when I was not looking great. I can only think of 4-5 times in my life where a strange guy went so far as asking for my phone number or asked me on a date. (I’m now 45 and it hasn’t happened at all in at least 15 years). Is that… Read more »
““I would guess I have been “approached” in the sense of a strange guy trying to engage me In conversation maybe 1-2 times a year during years when I was looking my best. Never at all during years when I was not looking great. I can only think of 4-5 times in my life where a strange guy went so far as asking for my phone number or asked me on a date. (I’m now 45 and it hasn’t happened at all in at least 15 years). Is that more than the average guy gets approached in his life? Maybe.… Read more »
Yeah, she acknowledges that.
But it’s still not like five times a night, or even five times a year.
Yeah, she acknowledges that.
Here’s the thing. It seems like that acknowledgement is only coming once guys get bitter enough to go around making sweeping remarks that women have it easier.
It’s leaving guys feeling that the only time their problems are being acknowledged is when they go off the deep end are start denying the experiences of women. Because seriously what’s the likelyhood of someone writing an article like this telling women that their experiences are bullshit because some women have over come those negative experiences and because men have it hard too?
First, she only counts the “strange” guys doing this – does it account for any “nonstrange” guys (friends, coworkers, classmates, acquaintences) who approached her or showed interest first?
Secondly, I don’t get why they all get the term “strange” applied to them. Were *all* the guys who hit on her weird in some way? Was hitting on her a weird thing to do, making them de facto strange? (these questions are more for her, of course)
By strange guys I meant guys I don’t know, because we were talking about being “approached” which I took to mean approached in public places etc. by a guy who is interested in dating/hookup/whatever. I didn’t mean strange/weird. Sorry for the confusion.
As for being asked on a dates by acquaintances or co-workers, that happened, I think, maybe 4 times in my 20’s after college that I can recal.. Not at all since then, although there aren’t many single people in my current workplace over the age of 30.
It’s like a travesty on that saying “If you outlaw guns, only the outlaws will have guns.”
If you outshame “normal” (average) guys, i.e. shy but polite, well-mannered, properly dressed, whatever you have, from contacting women on average places, only the strange/weird ones will step up and do it…
Joanna: “I think that the most important thing Sarah said was this: “I would guess I have been “approached” in the sense of a strange guy trying to engage me In conversation maybe 1-2 times a year during years when I was looking my best. …” “ Does Sarah want to be approached by some guy? She said the following in an earlier comment: Sarah: “I don’t like to talk to strangers of either gender who greet me for no reason — to many bad experiences with weirdos.” Not to make it about Sarah, I think this attitude seems to… Read more »
In my earlier comments about strangers, I was ncluding all the random people of both genders who try to talk to me in a typical urban day, including homeless people and crazy people,people trying to sell me things, people wanting to invite me to church, and so on. I don’t consider The vast majority of those to be serious approaches with the idea of going on a date. In my earlier comment Imwas responding to another commenter who complained strange women won’t talk to him because their egos are too big, and I was saying that after you live in… Read more »
@Alberich…
“….I think this attitude seems to be quite common among women.”
There is one exception: if the man is deemed attractive by the woman in question, then his approach is welcomed. Otherwise, he is just another unattractive putz whose approach is UNwelcomed. Therefore, he is “creepy” and “weird.” Remember, most women find only a FEW men attractive.
That my man is how women roll today. You can take that to the bank Bro!
Jules: There is one exception: if the man is deemed attractive by the woman in question, then his approach is welcomed. Otherwise, he is just another unattractive putz whose approach is UNwelcomed. Therefore, he is “creepy” and “weird.” Remember, most women find only a FEW men attractive. That my man is how women roll today. You can take that to the bank Bro! Well until she finds something unattractive about him and then he becomes just as unwelcome as the rest (and probably accused of trying to manipulate women or something like that). But anyway let’s try to get away… Read more »
Is it possible to say to a person, “Listen, I’m not saying your experience isn’t real, but it isn’t fair to say that you have it worse” without offending anyone?
Yes, but much more difficult a task when it’s tagged onto this article.
Okay but… Why?
Because this article starts out the gate making assumptions. If the author had stuck to detailing “this is how it is in my life”, but instead he makes grand assumptions about all men which are dismissive of men who have real issues with initiating. Essentially this author is saying that there is no differential in dating prospects as long as men *embrace* the double standard about men initiating and run with it. That’s like saying women can get ahead in business by *embracing* the stereotype that she has to get coffee even in a room full of peers or underlings.… Read more »
Ideally it would be possible but bear in mind the starting point of this particular conversation. I think it’s great that women have been speaking up about their own experience but at the end of the this was an article that told men their experiences aren’t real and it seems like people had no problem with denying men’s experience until men started firing back by denying women’s experiences. I’d like to say that it would be wrong to conclude that it seems like the denial of men’s experiences is okay as long as women experiences aren’t being denied but with… Read more »
“Honestly, to me that sounds like movie stars complaining about their issues of moving around in public.” I realize it sounds like that. However, think of it this way. Did getting 500 emails from random guys (many of whom did not even fit the age and geographic location I’d stated in my ad) help me find a relationship? No. I didn’t end up finding a relationship through that experience. I went on a bunch of dates that didn’t lead to anything. I probably could have had sex with some of those guys, I suppose, but I wasn’t interested in casual… Read more »
You went on a bunch of dates! Many guys would LOVE for the opportunity to go on a bunch of dates! Like I said before, you’re comparing your problems at squares 2-5 in the game of dating, with the guys who can’t even get off square zero. EVERYONE is going to have problems in all the steps after square zero, but it is really only men who have difficulty getting off square zero. There was actually a study done on people with Avoidant Personality Disorder, and it found that women with the disorder largely lead relatively normal lives with many… Read more »
I’m not trying to say that my experience is exactly the same, worse than, or even as bad as a guy who never has a date. I’m not doing that. All I’m saying is — the bunch of dates I had as a result of my online experience got me nothing, in the end. I didn’t end up happier or more fulfilled than if I’d had no dates at all.
I get that, Sarah. If it’s going on a bunch of dates that’ll be uncomfortable, not make you feel special, and not lead anywhere, I’d much rather have spent that time at home catching up on TV show, chatting with a friend, and drinking a glass of wine.
@Sarah Radford..
But you don’t talk to strangers. I am sure your body sends out the warm and fuzzy to strange men.
If it makes you feel any better, I’m a 22 year-old woman of average looks and I’ve never been approached or asked out on a date. So . . . do I at least get a bronze in these oppression Olympics? :p
Aren’t quite a few of them actually womansplaining? Telling men how life really is?
The term “mansplaining” is a meaningless power grab, and nothing more. Its a dipshit way for femininsts to say “My perspective is reality, you explaining your perspective is insulting to me, because it is not my perspective, which is reality.” or, sometimes, “You’ve posited a possible explanation for something that *doesn’t* boil down to ‘men are shit’.”
Oh yes, “mansplaining”. Mansplaining is simply having a contrary opinion after a woman has made up her mind. Obviously, once she’s made up her mind, we have no choice but to fall in line with her opinion, but instead we often, foolishly, imagine we get to have a point of view. I mean, how offensive is that? Also, for a man to try to explain something to a woman implies he knows something she doesn’t, and this is of course impossible.
Joanna mentioned the whole priviledged thing going back to the gatekeeper of sex. I don’t kow if it’s been mentioned in this monster of a comment section, but I really don’t think most of this has to do with sex. So I don’y understand why it keeps coming up unless it’s being mentioned in places I haven’t seen. Which is possible. I think the priviledge lies simply in the fact that men have to purse and women in most cases don’t. Period. I can’t fathom in any way how someone that is doing the pursing has any power or priviledge… Read more »
Isn’t there privilege in being the pursuer too? I mean, imagine if you just had to wait around to be properly pursued? I know you guys all on here think it’s great if a woman pursues, but either you guys are a minority (a good minority) or there are two different types of pursuit. First being for sex. Sure most guys are going to love to be pursued so as to have a one night stand (if the guy is the type who wants a one night stand). But I’ve known many guys who were very uncomfortable being pursued by… Read more »
Everyone who approaches risks major rejection, but in general at least you guys are considered “allowed” to do it, if you do so respectfully and with good taste. I know you put that in quote marks for a reason but that “but in general at least you guys….” almost negates it. And it’s not like respect and good taste will prevent the negative reactions (and by that I don’t mean rejection, I’m talking about being labeled all sorts of negative stuff just because he approached). Now to your overall point are you trying to say that there seems to be… Read more »
(I know I promised I wouldn’t use this word, but I think he’d grant me an exception for this) Can we please retire the word “privilege?” It is not useful in any type of analysis on the scale of what is discussed here. It’s been hijacked by people who’ve had one or two courses in Women’s Studies or Feminist Theory and been horribly misapplied to every situation in which there is a difference to be noted. In most cases it’s become synonymous with “male” in its application. As with much of gender theory (and any theory really) the terms used… Read more »
One big problem with the way that theories of “privilege” get used is that the argument is sometimes patently illogical. One of the apparent signs of privilege is that it is invisible to those who have it. So, if you say that you have privilege, you are correct, and if you say you do not, then you are just ignorant. The fact that you can’t see it just proves that it exists. The lack of evidence then becomes evidence of its existence, which is a very powerful, seamless bit of craftsmanship. I think this fallacious way of thinking is called… Read more »
Nick Mostly writes: “The fact is, in most systems you can find advantages and disadvantages. At the same time, whether those things are considered advantageous or not is going to be up to the individual. So to a guy, it looks awfully nice to just have to sit and look pretty for people to express interest in you, to be able to get a date with only one word: yes. No more cold approaches, no more rejection, what’s not to love?” Nick, this is really insightful. My addition/rebuttal to this would be that the down-side for women’s are examined fairly… Read more »
Joanna — I get that women too have frustrations with being pursued. I’ve actually tried to make that point to male friends who think the chips are just completely stacked against them. But still, that doesn’t nearly balance the privilege. Women might sit around disappointed with their options. Men don’t sit around. They actually get off their butts and run around town pursuing, and still often come up with nothing. Of course, women pursue occasionally. And I get that it’s not easy, but it doesn’t compare. It’s simply not the same thing. I’ve had women pursue me, and the confidence… Read more »
“So there is some privilege to being the one that is “allowed” to approach. Everyone who approaches risks major rejection, but in general at least you guys are considered “allowed” to do it, if you do so respectfully and with good taste. “ Are you saying that women aren’t “allowed” to approach? How does this not being allowed look like? I am really wondering, because in my experience on average women approaching men were received significantly better, then men approaching women. Of course if you ask a stranger: “Do you wanna shag?” you might easily be called promiscuous or even… Read more »
How is a woman being rejected for approaching by being called a slut or some other unsavory thing any different from a man getting a big eye roll and being told he’s a creep, or gross, or being looked up and down, getting a snort, and being told “never in a million years?”
I think what so many women don’t seem to be understanding is that, for most men it’s not a matter of being “allowed” to approach, it’s a matter of being *required* to approach.
Therein lies the privilege for women. Women can approach, or not, and still have a reasonable expectation of smething occurring. Men, for the most part, have to *make* things happen or they won’t happen at all.
“Waiting around and hoping someone will ask you out certainly doesn’t feel like privilege.”
Welcome to male privilege. Is there privilege in knowing you’re the most at risk of violence but also you have more physical strength on average? Does the bad outweigh the good? Doesn’t feel like privilege.
There is privilege in both probably, being able to choose who you want to approach and the other side is being approach without even actively looking. Facing rejection vs rejecting, both would suck.
Joanna, earlier in this thread some men said that women had privilege because they have the option to get sex more easily (option = privilege). You argued that it is, in fact, not a privilege because women often (usually) dont want the kind of sex they have the option to have – so “option you dont want = not privilege”. Now you’re trying to argue that men have privilege in the dating scene because they have the *option* to approach (option = privilege), despite the fact that men often (for some, usually) dont want to approach. Why doesn’t the “option… Read more »
Ultimately I’m saying that neither are legitimate “privileges” and that no one sex has the privilege in dating, as much as one might want to believe about the other.
Joanna writes: “Isn’t there privilege in being the pursuer too?” Only for those men (or women for that matter) who are gregarious, charismatic, love a challenge and *enjoy* being the pursuer. For those non-initiating men who are similarly situated to non-initiating women, there is no privilege only disprivilege (or oppression although that may be too strong a word). *That* is my point. Only those small % of men who are well-geared to enjoy pursuing will enjoy that privilege. In essence to me (personally) this article seems to be stating that all a man has to do is change his perspective… Read more »
Are there a lot of blue collar, low wage-earning men dying to date high powered, middle aged, love-starved professional women? Because honestly, I haven’t noticed that.
I admit that a power mismatch in the woman’s favor may be a turnoff for men.
What we do know is that a power mismatch in the woman’s favor is definitely a turnoff for women.
@Sarah Radford..
No. Just calling it the way it is.
Depends if the woman is willing to buy me stuff <3
I'd rather earn my own money, but it would be interesting to get given money!
Joanna writes: “Isn’t there privilege in being the pursuer too?” Here is the deal: choices are privileges. Not expectations. Being the pursuer is only a privilege only when somebody (typically women) have the *choice* to pursue (and obtain companionship) or not pursue (and still obtain companionship). Being the pursuer is not a privilege when it is the one and only available choice to obtain companionship. Does it *benefit* some men? Yes. But only because those men are already situationally disposed to enjoy or benefit pursuing. To put this into another context: is it a privilege for men to have the… Read more »