Wondering why nice guys seem to be friend-zoned vs bed-zoned? Here’s why it happens.
—-
Is it that women don’t really want the nice guys? Nope.
It’s not that women don’t want a nice person, it’s that they don’t want what someone playing the nice guy has to offer.
When a man is too nice, too kind or too giving, women sense bullshit. No one is nice all of the time except for pleasers, over-givers, and Mr. Nice guys. Women want authentic.
If a man falls into any of these categories, at first he might seem wonderful, but below the surface on some level he’s a liar, ultimately because he’s lying to himself.
Let’s start with Mr. Nice Guy. Women don’t want assholes, but they do want real.
A Mr. Nice Guy is too willing to compromise and never pushes back. He’ll bend over backward for his woman while stepping on his own self-respect. It’s simply not authentic. Self respect breeds respect.
When a man has no boundaries and gives seemingly endlessly, there’s no boundary or container present.
By container, I mean an authentic edge to experience and actually feel the other ie: boundary. Being with a Mr. Nice Guy becomes boring because it’s not real and it’s not sustainable.
Dating a Mr. Nice Guy is stagnant. It’s like dating yourself. There’s nothing to push up against and feel, much like dancing alone with no lead.
Women don’t want jerks, but they do want some backbone. If a man is constantly agreeable- and let’s face it- NO ONE is authentically agreeable all of the time, somebody’s not being honest.
Which leads us to Pleasers. Pleasers don’t express their moods or their real opinions because they’re so focused outside of themselves while desperately seeking approval.
Pleasers become out of touch with what they really want and need because they’re not tapped into who they really are or what they really feel.
Here’s where the deception ultimately resides: pleasers lie to themselves.
Pleasers tend to be so scared of losing who they want, they set their own needs aside and deny what they feel in order to, well… please.
At first it’s hard to decipher, but when we’re is in a relationship with a pleaser or overly nice guy, eventually the truth behind their actions is revealed- he’s scared and he’s needy.
Needy men give to get back versus giving from a place of truth inside their hearts.
It’s one thing to compromise within a relationship and want to make your partner happy, but it’s quite another to sacrifice your own needs. Needy men have no needs, except for the woman in front of them- you!
What first appears to be adoration and romance, soon becomes suffocating. With needy men, there’s a lack of groundedness that’s palatable because needy men aren’t truly embodied. They live outside themselves and try to enmesh with the other.
When anyone comes into a relationship needy, they’re trying to fill a void that can only truly be filled from within. When a man comes into a relationship trying to fill a void, it can often be unresolved mother issues. (same goes for women with daddy issues)
When a woman feels she’s being put in the position of fixing or filling mother issues, her sexual attraction meter goes to zero.
Healthy women want to grow. We want to stretch. When we’re with Mr Nice Guy or Mr. Pleaser, we feel selfish because there’s no healthy way to match their over giving. We eventually feel stagnant because there’s no one to grow along with in life. Suddenly we feel like the male and the female in the relationship because we’re calling all of the shots all of the time.
When we’re directing every aspect of our movie together, soon the pressure shuts us down.
Wondering what needy men, Mr. Nice Guys, and pleasers all have in common?
They are all over-givers.
Over-givers are ultimately selfish. On the surface, they may appear to be easy going and kind, but there’s a dark agenda often hidden from even themselves. There tends to be an empty hole deep inside that was never tended to, healed, or self-sourced.
While it’s one thing to compromise and prioritize the relationship, it’s quite another to over do all of that.
As much as men don’t want a drama queen or someone who can’t take care of herself; women want a fully embodied man who has done the work on himself and is able to fill those empty holes on the inside, by himself.
When a man learns to express who he really is, while tending to his own needs and having an opinion and life of his own, that’s when we’re attracted to them.
Men (like women) who are wounded early on in life tend to want to please in order to receive love. They don’t know their own self-worth and instead identify through the relationship.
Children who were neglected emotionally often grow up learning to manipulate the other for attention and love versus having healthy self-esteem and self-love. Over giving, pleasing, and playing nice for love are all examples of this manipulation.
Learning to self-resource his own needs allows us to partner together as self-resourced healthy adults.
Standing there with an empty bucket and hoping to fill it through the relationship – does not.
It’s not that women don’t want the nice guy, it’s that they want an authentic guy.
Want to dive deeper and get more clarity on this post? Check out an interview Tamara did on this subject with Oprah’s former producer LeGrande Green of Get Bold Radio here:
More from Tamara Star:
You might also enjoy Why We Need to Ease Up on Our Men
Why Most of Us Don’t Have the Balls to Be Happy
I think the reverse of this is true and applies to gay couples as well. Really the sex/gender of the person has nothing to do with it. Good article though.
You know, I see a lot of frustrated men getting upset about this article. I know… I used to feel that way too. But Tamara really hit the nail on the head here. This is all too true… Want to know the real secret to staying out of the friend zone?: Kill your ego, work to improve yourself, treat people well but more importantly, you have to love and care about YOU more than HER. She will always respect that.
…I am in this “friend zone” situation now….I am a big hearted and what you call “nice guy”…I do things for this woman because i love her and I want her to feel safe and taken care of by me….I know she could do it alone, but she doesn’t have to….but lately she has started puting me in what feels like the “friend zone” I do not want to be friends with her…we have had an intimate and romantic relationship….and thats what I want and need…a partnership and team where we look out for each other, have fun, and just… Read more »
“I’m not going to be friends if she goes out with other guys. its not fair to me if I love and its just not what she wants for her.”
Sorry, dude, but that’s totally fair to you and you’re not entitled to anything more than the friendship you’re offered.
The reality is women are never satisfied and insecure themselves
I feel you dude, my fiance left me in the cold by saying, she cares for me but does not feel for me now and that I am not man enough
To me, this article seems fraught with sexism and cluelessness. It might be good advice for tightening up a relationship that’s a little one-sided–in other words, maybe a woman who’s a little afraid of what this “nice guy” is hiding should have the ovaries to come out and ask. Maybe she should allow him to explain why he capitulates to her desires. Yes, we all want authenticity in the end, but just because he’s a nice guy doesn’t mean he’s being disingenuous. Sounds like he’s damned if he does or doesn’t, like if he did assert himself a little more,… Read more »
Furthermore, it seems to me that if a woman were to be so worried about a nice guy, it’s probably because she’s been burned by a similar guy. Might such a guy have been burned by a girl who expected everything her way? Might he have decided in response that it was necessary to keep his own whims on a leash? We are all dealing with gender expectations and imperfections, and we are all a work in progress. I know men can be difficult sometimes, but have some of these women taken a look at what men deal with? And… Read more »
They just don’t want you to be an overly nice, needy whimp. How is a woman supposed to feel feminine when with a man who is more of an emotional girl than them? They don’t give a fuck if you’re ‘nice’. Being nice is stupid. Be kind and compassionate, yes, but don’t be a ‘people pleaser’ don’t think that bending over backwords for a woman is how you show your love for her. Look… you have to express your love for a woman like a MAN. Be her leader. Push her to grow. Don’t EVER let her walk on you.… Read more »
And once again it is always about what the woman wants. If it is not the “friend with benefits” zone. she is clearly not interested. Time to leave.
And once again it is always about what the woman wants. If it is not the “friend with benefits” zone. she is clearly not interested. Time to leave.
Differentiate between nice guy and kind guy
What really happens is that all these women push the good guys away and end up coming crying to me all the time how they can’t find anyone decent. It’s because they’re screwed up themselves. This article is written for your typical low self-esteem woman. For all the guys there, I really hope you stay away from those women for your long-term relationships. I’m really sad to read stuff like this, it’s so negative. A woman who thinks like this will never find a good guy. The women I know who end up with top men are very respectful and… Read more »
Good on ya Tom, well said! Couldn’t have put it better myself
Thank you. You’ve echoed my sentiments exactly!
What if a man is all nice and giving and expects nothing in return? Clearly,the writer doesnt fathom the existence of such people and remains limited to that the few men who took advantage comprise of the entire universe
Yes
Great article and synopsis. I am one of those men. What I was looking for in the summery was more concise principals upin which to base future action. It’s easy to say whats wrong, but no solution was given… no Model or direction to follow. It’s good to know what’s wrong and why… identifying a situation, but without multiple Solutions we haven’t pinpointed the problem. Lets brainstorm actionable steps to assist men like myself to name and identify the boarder, and hold space for us to state our wants, needs, and desires. In most cases you will get more man… Read more »
It’s hard to figure out boundaries/borders if you haven’t learnt how to recognise and form them. I know it’s a huge cliche, but going to see a professional about it can be really good, because they can help you learn to identify what a boundaries are and how to form them. I’ve found that helpful. Another thing that’s helped me is identifying my values by discussing them with others or writing them down. When you understand your values, it’s easier to notice when they’ve been ignored, either by yourself or others. You can then decide which ones you’re willing to… Read more »
I feel so sorry for some of you women. Its got to be tough to keep all that B.S. strait in your head.
Lol! Well said!
Honestly after years of relationships of being abused, taken for granted , manipulated and let down .
I like the friend zone.
I like to help people out and it is nice to be able to do so without feeling of obligation and there is much less obligation in a friend relationship.
I also find it easier to stand up for myself when the heart strings don’t pull so tight.
Sounds like me. I help a lot of young women with their relationship, anxiety and other issues. No strings attached, although sometimes they friend me. And that’s nice.
So in one fell swoop of an article of opinion, you are stating that “women want a perfect man; one who is fully developed and intellectually stimulating yet voices his beliefs and ideals and doesn’t comprimise who he believes himself to be. While , I the woman, get exemptive passes from all that and can be ‘just me'”. Because you think your pussy is gold. It’s not, your pussy isn’t gold, neither is your self-involved ideals of a man which only shows how inexperienced you and others are about human psychology and that of the psychology of a man. Unbelievable… Read more »
Nice sour grapes there, J.collins. Nobody wants to date a bitter twisted person, that’s for sure.
You’re forgetting that men have the right to discriminate and choose too. I would have thought this is implicit in the article.
Nothing is implicit, we are not mind readers, make it explicit or suffer the consequences.
This was my first reaction, too. ?
amen
^^^^^^^…this
Stop reducing women or anyone else to their body parts. The choice that someone will have sex with you can not be compared to a physical item such as gold! Try to understand that people are worth more than gold. You are the fool if you think that women or anyone else is worth less than gold.
Although the author addresses a major point which is “women don’t fall in love with an all the time nice guy” but she ignored this fact that “they also need Mr. Nice Guy”. Basically, women need two types of men: (1) the one who knows how to play. It means to keep your relationship strong, you need to know when express your interest in her and when distort her emotions. Woman don’t want a jerk, but they do want a real good player; (2) Mr. Nice Guy who supports them unconditionally whenever they need. That’s why they don’t want the… Read more »
I think the article shows one major flaw: it’s pretty fallacious both in content and structure.
A) It just moves –switches the goalposts of men trying to FRANTICALY PLEASE a woman by being “pleasers”, “needy”, et al, to men trying to FRANTICALY PLEASE a woman by being “containers”, and “pushers”.
B) It portrays a certain type of highly narcissistic woman who –again, exists to be pasively “pleased” (almost entertrained), and who “needs to strech” (standing on top of that idealized non-existent “pusher-container” man). A woman with an even bigger emotional “hole” than the one attributed to The Nice Guy.
Fred, the article doesn’t portray any kind of woman at all, except an adult who wants a good partner. Don’t you want a good partner? What does she look like to you?
“a certain type of highly narcissistic woman” – where did you get that from? A woman with self-respect who wants to be happy? ???
Excellent article. I’m a woman who agrees completely with the author.
This article is a fantastic description of the various ways that codependency plays out in a relationship.
“Codependency” is a word that’s overused yet not fully understood. It’s the basis for lots of the behaviors described in the article and in the most insightful comments here (e.g., trying to replicate the relationship you had with the most problematic parent).
The key to “breaking the cycle,” I think, is identifying that codependency is the true problem you need to heal, rather than the people-pleasing behaviors — which are actually symptoms of the underlying problem.
Thanks for a great article, Tamara!
I’ve read this article a couple of times now because the term “Mr. Nice Guy” makes it difficult to actually focus on the message. The phrase “nice guys finish last” is attached to so many individual definitions and experiences that society ends up arguing over the words and not the message. I know this because, at turns in my life, I have been both Mr. Nice Guy and the Pleaser. Don’t misunderstand. You can be a nice guy but that is not the same as being Mr. Nice Guy and wanting to please the women you are partnered with is… Read more »
Hi Sean
I enjoyed reading your comment.
Your describe it so well !
Thanks Silkie. This little post just struck a cord for me.
Yes, excellent post, Sean.
“… grow up learning to manipulate the other for attention and love versus having healthy self-esteem and self love.” suggests that children emotionally abused/abandoned grow up as narcissists, isn’t that a little extreme. If anything these children likely never learned that technique and continue to suffer through their adult lives.
????????
I find myself wondering if many people here actually READ the post or if they’re just reacting to the term “nice guy”. I’m also reminded of the saying: The truth shall set you free, but at first it will piss you off.”
And I wonder how well you read the posts you are responding to, or if you just nitpick the parts commenting on the “Nice Guy” issues. 🙂
Whatever, we all know others by ourselves, I guess.
FlyingKal, you’re missing the point is what it is. You don’t understand what Tamara’s saying. Set healthy boundaries. Have self-respect. Be genuine. Be kind. Think of others. Be a happy strong interesting person that someone else would find an asset. Don’t get nasty when people don’t agree with you. Why don’t you have a look at John Anderson’s post of Feb 21st, he tells the same thing from a different angle.
It’s unsurprising really. Bottom line, women are not sex vending machines. All the guys saying…’but I’m a nice guy..’. Guess what she has a right to decide if she wants to date you or not. How about you be upfront with her and yourself. I was stalked for two years by a “nice guy” so stop lying to yourselves.
Steve
As far as I know the concept friendzone come from the PUA , the pick up artists.
Why do anyone want to see the world the way they do?
Because for nerdy men, who failed to acquire an intuitive approach to social skills at a young age (and being male it never was given any importance in our upbringing) the PUA mindset offers an algorithmic approach to the problem. And we nerdy men appreciate algorithms and “hacks”. They look scientific and tangible do not rely on some mysterious magic powers we do not possess, like reading nonverbal clues which we are not even sure really are there. In short, we can understand it. I am very critical of PUA for various reasons, and do not recommend that approach to… Read more »
Because Silke’s post, to which this had been a reply, was deleted (for reasons completely mysterious to me!) this post now makes no sense any more to the issue. Sorry!
John– you make very interesting points… “I grew up with alpha males…” My husband’s ex-friend was the uber alpha male….he reached financial and social success in an Asian country working for some tech company….he was well known and beautiful Asian models on the street would stuff their phone numbers into his pocket….he sowed his wild oats, but I think he tired of the gold diggers and phonies….he really wanted a girl who was genuinely interested in him for him and not his status….I would like to say that it was an easy process, but, to put it mildly, has a… Read more »
One more thing to all the guys out there. Tamara’s advice is not bad advice. Her reasoning is a little bit off. Sorry Tamara, I appreciate you, but I’m going to have to call this out. I grew up with a bunch of alpha males. We competed in everything; how much we could lift, how well we fought, what grades we got, what awards we got, what house we bought, what job we had, etc. It brought out the “best” in us, if you measured best by level of education, income, physical fitness; but it wears on you and doesn’t… Read more »
Tamara, you’re a Star! This is so accurate and true! This comes from a guy who has been Mr. Nice early in his life. Though I didn’t realize it at that point, and I always thought I do things out of affection for the girl, but now that I’ve moved on to a better place in my life, have extraordinary love and respect for myself, and hardly feel the need of another person’s validation to make me feel complete, I cringe at the thought of the person I was. Yet, I think there is scope for some people to be… Read more »
@ FlyingKal @ PursuitAce @ Tamara Star
I think I hear what the guys are saying. It’s not so much the nice guy articles that they’re pushing back. It’s that all the articles seem to approach the issue from the same POV, the POV that every woman is attainable and that the reason why the guy is failing is because of a failing on his part. Some people just aren’t sexually attracted to you. Sometimes a guy just needs permission to walk away. You’re not a failure because you’ve been rejected.
Some interesting views but let’s make sure that for all the categorizations, don’t expect to find what you are not willing to offer yourself. For equality to reign, it can’t always be one gender holding the cards no matter how much one wants control or assumes the other should be giving this or that. Growing as a couple will always take both people and lots of communication and patience.