There are a lot of ways to be a jerk when you’re trying to get laid. Emily Heist Moss writes a letter to her brother about how to make hook-up culture be about pleasure and consent, instead of “scoring.”
A letter to my brother, and all his college friends,
College is awesome, right? No parents, no curfew, no rules, and there are girls everywhere. It is an alcohol-fueled, school-spirit-enhanced buffet of ladies, and it’s hard not to want to sample everything on the menu. So you should! Seriously, I’m not going to rain on what could potentially be a literal parade, so just be safe and have fun.
You’re waiting for the “but,” because I’m your nagging big sister and that’s what I do. Here it is: Be safe, have fun, but don’t be a manipulative, coercive asshole about it. There’s story after story about on-campus sexual assaults, astoundingly high rates of date-rape, and even more terrifying estimates of unreported incidents. I’m not worried you’ll be that guy, but there are still dozens of tempting and legal ways to be a douche when you’re trying to get some action. Forgoing these “techniques” requires recalibrating your hook-up goals to emphasize consent, respect, and yes, pleasure, instead of “scoring.”
◊♦◊
There are strategies to get laid that are violent and criminal, and there are methodologies that are just mean-spirited and misogynistic. You can find the drunkest girl in the bar and hand her another shot. You can physically back a girl into a corner at a party until the only way out is through you. You can cut a girl down to size with backhanded “compliments,” belittle her until she thinks the only way to feel good again is to win your attention. You can taunt her with insults about prudishness, until she thinks she needs to prove something. You can taunt her with insults about sluttiness, until she thinks she might as well confirm what you already think of her. You already know that these dick moves are beneath you.
There are milder forms of deception and coercion, though, tactics that are dangerous because of their efficacy and subtlety. These are the ones to which I want to draw your attention. You can lie about your feelings for her. You can promise things you can’t deliver. You can agree to commitments you know you’ll break. You can hear hesitation or uncertainty in her voice, and ignore it. You can play with her emotions, knowing full well that if you were honest about your lack of intentions, you’d lose your shot at a hook-up. You can know that if she were sober, she wouldn’t be doing this, and you can go for it anyway. A court might not convict you, but I hope you know that these are dick moves, too.
The pronouns in this essay thus far would suggest that I think only men can be coercive when it comes to sex, and we all know that’s patently untrue. We know male rape is a real issue, and that the stigma against victims can be excruciating. We know that women can lie and scheme their way into sex just as well as men. We know that insults to masculinity, epithets like “pussy,” or accusations of homosexuality can compel guys to do things they don’t want to do, just to prove a point. The toolbox may look different, but we know that girls can wield emotional manipulation and social coercion with expert dexterity.
All these strategies work more often than we’d like. I hope someday we can better teach teenagers (and adults) to call bullshit when they see it and to let the insults roll of their backs instead of eat at their self-esteem. But in the meantime, the fact that those manipulative moves might work doesn’t mean you should use them. These are tools for weak people, people for whom sex is a contest and winning matters. Sex can, and should, be fun. It can be playful, it can be casual, but it isn’t a game. Whether enacted by men or women, these bullshit strategies are not sexy, they are not cool, and—quaint as it may be—they are not very nice. There’s nothing wrong with a little push-pull, a little back-and-forth banter with a prospective partner, but assigning a winner and a loser to a sexual encounter sets us all back a couple decades.
◊♦◊
You should never feel like you’ve been convinced to have sex, and you should never feel like you’re doing the convincing. You want partners—one-night-stands or long-term relationships—who want to have sex with you as much as you want to have sex with them. The culturally established “no means no” is too low a bar. Only yes means yes. And I’m not talking about an “I guess we could…” or an “I don’t really care….” or an “Only if you really want to….” or a “Might as well…” I’m talking about an enthusiastic, excited, sustained “Yes!” Are those “yesses” less frequent than the non-committal, hesitant “not-nos?” Yeah, they are, but it’s worth it to know that the people you’re fooling around with really want to fool around with you, too.
Alcohol clouds everyone’s decision-making abilities, but it doesn’t make us deaf. Even at frat row, bar crawls, or crowded house parties, you need to listen for that “Yes!” And you need to be saying it too! If you’re a “Yes!” and your partner is a “Yes!”, then I revert to my original advice: be safe, have fun. Consent is not a traditionally sexy concept, but I absolutely guarantee you that two enthusiastic, excited, sustained “yesses” is what it’s all about.
Love,
Your big sister,
Emily
—
—Photo taberandrew/Flickr
No woman should ever give advice to men on how or how not to pick up women. There I said it. Unless she is a lesbian she has no idea what it takes to seduce her or other women. That is the bottom line. I think women have valuable and important things to say but they miss the target more times than not when analyzing the issues that men face when it comes to women. No woman in her right mind is ever going to tell a guy to be a douchebag or a jerk to try to pick up… Read more »
i can’t thank you enough for posting this. i just broke up with someone for this very reason. whether you are male or female, it’s just important to really listen. It’s painful when someone you’re crazy about is hesitating, but if you genuinely care for someone then you honor their right to hesitate and you back off. Control and coercion can never co exist with love. I feel like, a lot of people are groomed to be go-getters, salespeople and “overcome obstacles” — these may be good strategies in the workplace or the marketplace, but in personal relationships they spell… Read more »
So, let me put this out there. I have heard it said by professionals in human behavior that “what a women wants most is to be desired.” Do you all think this also??
well hell. anybody?? I guess its just you and me Andrea.
Well I think that’s a bit hard to gauge AND define. I’d prefer to be thought of as attractive, but it’s not my #1 priority. And does desirability in this case mean as a partner, taking into account my personality and abilities, or is it more/purely physical?
Yes, desire is hard to define. I suppose it takes all into account. But, to be wanted, is at the core of desire. And to be wanted is very powerful. I don’t think desire is limited to lust.
Well how can you say that all women want the same thing? Everybody is different, you can’t say that is every woman’s big turn-on. I mean, most people do want to be desired, but I seriously doubt that that’s what attracts a woman to a man every time. And again this has the same implication of men always being the initiators. It’s 2013 everybody, women and men should be thought of as equals, and it should not be a surprise for a girl to initiate, they have a sex drive just like men do, its a bond that all human… Read more »
Except we all know that women under the age of 30 can’t tell the difference between a$$hole and confident.
It makes for a real conundrum.
It’s true! I’m having real trouble telling which of the two you are.
Great letter – if only I always remembered to NOT READ THE COMMENTS I’d be feeling pretty good right now! I don’t understand how every well reasoned, thoughtful article I ever read seems to also be read by loads of people who then use the comments to spew utter rubbish that shows the most basic grasp of the topics behind the article are completely beyond them. Case in point – “It’s a nice article, but it’s basically useless! All it really does is tell you to be just another caring, courteous nice guy! Unfortunately, being a nice guy is a… Read more »
Right?!
I feel your frustration……..
What I find most frustrating about these comments is that there aren’t more men responding to this article, and the ones that are seem to be disagreeing with it — which is fucked up beyond belief. This article defines a standard that all of us guys (and girls) should adhere to- both for our own personal well-being, and the well being of all of the women (or men) in our lives. Nobody should be persuaded to have sex. Sex really is a beautiful thing when it’s between two people who wholeheartedly want to experience it together. Also, any guy who… Read more »
+1
It’s a nice article, but it’s basically useless! All it really does is tell you to be just another caring, courteous nice guy! Unfortunately, being a nice guy is a well known recipe for failure!
The above only deals with consent, and making sure you’ll know it when you see it. There’s a little more to courtship, though — to have people interested in you, you have to be interesting.
Why wouldn’t I go for the interesting nice guy over the interesting douchebag?
Except when it’s not.
Be interesting! I’m dating a really interesting, and also very nice guy. I was attracted to the niceness. There are a lot of “nice guys” out there that think they deserve the girl just because they’re in no way offensive. Consider that most of the jerks out there are getting laid not because they’re jerks, but because they tend to have opinions and hobbies and such.
I think that is true. Being interesting is more important than being nice for sure. But, in the long run, being an interesting jerk will not be tolerated as much as a polite wimp.
That’s why we have affairs. So we can be with the jerk once in while but come home to the wimp for the long term.
I think that caring about the other person and being a “nice” guy is only a recipe for failure if you are going after the kind of girls with so little respect for themselves that they expect you to be a jerk. Which is probably most girls these days… more than half of the other women I’ve met have been sexually abused in some way before the age of 16. Which means their idea of what a “real man” is, is likely messed up. So they go after the guys that are likely to abuse them – because that’s what… Read more »
Apr 25, 2008· common sense says the actual wildlife are adults with the heart. In the world of materialism, consumerism, and persistent comparison genuinely creatures show enjoy …animals
i don’t know what happened to the last of your post. last i saw was “show enjoy.”
if you watch animals “court” you can learn a lot about humans. watch as the bull nudges the cow and she withdrawls. watch how she resists his advances but always leaves a little room for possibilities. then watch how she gives in as he climbs on her back. there is always a “maybe” in regards to mutual sex. males leaning to turn the maybe into a yes is very much a part of the dance. many times if a women initiates sex it is a turn off to the man also. if the the penis says no then “yes” does… Read more »
Yes, but WHICH animals are the best models for human courting behavior? In my experience, there’s more than one praying mantis out there…. : – )
i don’t know what that means?? more than one praying mantis out there.
Female praying mantis bite the head of the male praying mantis and eats him during the mating ritual. using animal courting behaviour isn’t necessarily the best example to model human courting behaviour
Actually, sometimes there is no “maybe”. I’m not going to elaborate. This should be obvious.
Also, if a man is sexually interested in a woman, yet turned off if she initiates sexual contact, then don’t worry, I will back right off from that dysfunctional shell of a man.
Sorry, that was harsh. Such a response is probably involuntary, learned through decades of being bombarded with traditional gender roles.
I don’t think that was harsh. I agree with you completely. A man getting an unwilling woman to eventually consent to sex with him is a just a misogynistic power trip. Sex is much more pleasurable when both parties are excited to be doing what they’re doing. The energy is better, the mood is better, and the sex is better.
I am not sure where any of these posts are going. I can’t find the most current posts.
so I’ve become lost in whatever conversation we might be having. no matter, I believe sex is pointless without a real connection. but, I believe one can have many connections in a lifetime.
Are you seriously trying to compare human sex for pleasure to animal mating? Do you actually know anything about animal behavior or biology? Because going here to support this point of view tells me you haven’t spent much, if any, time actually studying either. And do you know anything about evolution or why our bodies are designed the way they are sexually? It’s because, for the most part, we AREN’T like most other animals when it comes sex. And while it’s not always true (because there are always exceptions, yes we know that because I assume we’re all capable of… Read more »
This was an old post and having you respond is a complete surprise. I would suggest that there are similarities between man and animal. Just a difference in courtship rituals. How is human dancing different than a mating ritual of swans? Obviously our experiences have been different.in regards to courtship. But in my experience the female is often reluctant to engage and the male pressures her by his being persistent. It is because of his persistence that she will not deny his intent and “gives in.”. Sorry if that is not how you see it or that you think being… Read more »
Reg: perhaps you and I are using certain words differently. If a man pressures a woman for dating or sex, and she eventually gives in, that sounds… awful. Are you saying this is normal? I go out with guys if I feel that I would like to, and if they have the same interest in me; not because they pursued me so relentlessly that they wore me down. True, the man has historically been the puruser. But in a healthy courtship, this involves the man taking one step forward, and the woman matching him, and so on and so on.… Read more »
no I don’t think that is what I am saying. I am saying, if one person does not make a sexual advance, nothing is going to happen. so, in my twisted experience MAKE A MOVE with someone you like and tell them that.
funny thing is watching some guy put moves on a girl seems way different than doing it myself. it seems contrived. such an awkward dance.
I love women. Reggie suggests to read the book “The Women.” amazing story about Frank Lloyd Wright.
Okay, good. I think we were not on the same wavelength. I interpreted, “there is always a “maybe” in regards to mutual sex. males leaning to turn the maybe into a yes,” as very, very creepy.
My wife and I have a fantastic sex life and I have to say I agree with this concept. She ROUTINELY says ‘no’ even (especially?) when she’s in the mood, and she gets really turned on (and so do I) when I push a little harder for sex. I think some part of her is saying, “no, I don’t want sex… unless you REALLY mean it, in which case, f**k the shit out of me!” This blurs a lot of lines that shouldn’t be blurred by new partners though. It just isn’t safe for anyone. When she and I first… Read more »
I admit I also wasn’t thinking about two people who knew each other well.
Keilah speaks plainly about creating sexual tension. And Andrea, I have forgotten some the stupid things I probably said early on in this thread.
One thing I have learned is many women feel as if “planned sex” is not ok. So, they wait for a “S.O.” to be a little pushy. In that way they can justify what happens as being spontaneous.
I hope this makes sense to someone. This is just my experience with “some” women.
I reads a LOT differently when I consider two people who are in a relationship, and who actually DO want to have sex with each other! I had only thought about people who were (say) starting to see each other, or hadn’t yet, as is the tone of the article.
*It reads
We’re somewhere standing at some noisy venue on a long Memorial day weekend deep in the Hamptons. All around us are the surly signs of young boys and girls looking for that special something, or rather someone special. Then again at 2 am in the morning perhaps anything or anyone….
http://scallywagandvagabond.com/2012/06/the-ins-and-outs-of-getting-laid-in-the-hamptons/
was written in response to a blog post that was featured in our End
Mark,
Stop being some aspergery coward and get a good GFE escort. You will never look back.
Chicks dig jerks……
’nuff said.
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Nice, but the last thing this brother should do is to follow his sister’s advice. Life, almost 40 years of growning up among women only, have taught me that women’s advice will make you the kind of man women don’t find attractive.
See the article with Dempsey’s picture for reference.
And this is all many good men see when it comes to courtship — a long list of don’ts. That’s not enough to encourage good behaviour.
While reading this article, I get a flashback to the point when i was called a pussy by a girl, after i refused to jump in the pool with her. That was her way to coerce me in to having sex with her . Sex should be as mutual as possible no party should feel coerced into indulging in sex. It take intelligence for both the girl and the boy to indulge in sex and still have emotions intact. Because if the guy gets to manipulate his way through and leave with his emotions intact then he is a jerk.… Read more »
Okay, I confess I’ve read some PUA advice. It has some good points, and some really bad points. The good advice: They start in bars or places where young single women are gathering to met guys. These are women who might be interested in sex and going after women who might want sex is a huge first step. They tell men to go over to the woman they are attracted to right away so that they don’t have time to lose confidence. The guys have something planned to say. They tell guys to figure out as soon as possible if… Read more »
Black: The success of PUA I would say is mostly due to this: There is no other system out there to help men. PUA is all men have. Also, any individual man can take whichever elements from PUA he wants, and leave those he doesn’t want. For me, the most important tidbit I got from PUA is the manner in which women sh*t-test their men. A great deal of women sh*t-test their men whether they are 20 years into a marriage or on a first date. It is expressly represented in most PUA forums that sh*t-testing is a subconscious behavior… Read more »
If these same feminists extolling the nastiness of PUA were also calling out women who exercise divorce theft, then at least they would be consistent.
But, as always with these battle of the sexes articles, feminists are only concerned about the harm to women. God forbid some woman somewhere gives up her companionship due to bs pillowtalk, but let’s not mention the great harm to men and children women due by engaging in divorce theft.
Lifetime alimony is still the law of the land in many states. And this is supposed to be the century of equality? What a joke.
Isn’t it men who believe a woman’s soul is located in her vagina? Just have to play devil’s advocate here. One of the things about PUA that I find deeply ironic ( though PUA’s themselves seem deadly serious and totally immune to irony), is how on the one hand it’s sold as a male empowerment movement, yet at the same time, women — or, let’s be blunt, women’s vaginas — still have all the power in the relationship. A man’s worth is judged by how many vaginas he’s able to put his penis into. The movement teaches that a man… Read more »
Jill, Newsflash! Men like female compansionship! Oh wait, that’s not news! Let me explain it like this: You think many PUA gurus and pundits are dysfunctional. My response? Fair enough–I agree. But, what did you expect? As more and more women’s attraction markers becomes deeply dysfunctional, the men who most meet these markers will tend to be dysfunctional! (doy!) When a good percentage of young women have such f*cked up sensibilities that the average ex-con thug has more potential for female companionship than a timid IT professional pulling down $80k or more a year, something is wrong–WRONG WITH THESE WOMEN!… Read more »
Or maybe these woman are just angry that they no longer have the mating value that they can attract these nasty guys that use women like specimen cups.
It’s not that they really care about these women–they are just mad that they will never be with a man like that again (or for the first time for most of these feminists).
Either way, the concern rings false. It’s just more wholesale demonization of the male sex drive. Sigh.
Jill said:
“hey, I’m more than boobs and a vagina!”
And yet THE MEN WHO SEE WOMEN AS PEOPLE are the ones women are PASSING OVER FOR SEX!
Dysfunctionality breeds more dysfunctionality!
PUA is a symptom, not the cause.
Not necessarily, John. The guys that PUA’s call “beta males” are just as capable of objectifying women! While the nice guys are pining after the hotties and watching porn and signing up for PUA classes so they can chase “10’s”, there are a lot of nice women sitting at home who would love a little male attention but can’t get it because they aren’t sufficiently “hot.” Are the nice guys asking any of them out? One of the PUA sites I looked at had a big ad at the top that said, “Never date ugly women again!” So apparently the… Read more »
Jill:
Even a nice guy who wants a LTR and builds the skills to entice female attraction, is going to then screen based on the most desirable women–and there is nothing necessarily wrong with that. This is no different than women ALREADY screen men for their effed up criteria.
Those women would have to settle for “low hanging fruit” class of men under any system of dating. At least when marriage meant something, these women would have been guaranteed of a life-long mate. All you have shown me is that today’s shark tank disadvantages both sexes.
there are a lot of nice women sitting at home who would love a little male attention but can’t get it because they’re sitting at home
Fixed that for ya.
The problem with this letter is that it is written as if sex was easily had; as if college was a non-stop lovefest where men could choose to have sex by acting nicely, or choose to have sex by acting like a dick, and for some inexplicable reason they are opting for the latter. The truth of the matter is that very few men indeed have the confidence, attractiveness and social standing to have any great say in the women that are available to them or the manner in which they approach them. The men who “choose” to act like… Read more »
Good point.
Maybe the reason so many articles written by women tell men to cool their jets and say “hands off”, is because the passive sexual role WORKS for women to still acquire companionship.
THAT DOESN’T WORK for men. And it’s time for women to start understanding that.
I too would much rather see an article from the man’s point of view. Women have so many more options in dating that any article from a woman will most likely be deeply flawed.
I think the other reason women tell men to cool their jets is because too often the women are being approached by guys they don’t want to have sex with or not that fast.
Iris, I was speaking specifically about the article. I dont think this womans advice to her brother is as good as it would be if it was written by a male family memeber. I wasnt talking about womens responses to being hit on as directed to the hittee, but generic dating advice women give to men. Womens dating advice is flawed because they dont know what it is like for men in the dating world
Sorry, iphone posting mishap. I’ve always wondered if men REALLY want women to take a more active role in initiating relationships. They say they do, but at the same time, many men don’t seem to like women who are too forward or aggressive. They might say “yes” to a sexual offer but they might not see that kind of woman as having much value. I’m not saying all men think that way but enough do that it is risky for women to pursue men too aggressively ( though certainly there are exceptions). Also, men fantasize about being pursued by beautiful… Read more »
Using that logic, no one should pursue anyone. It’s risky for men to pursue women too aggressively (though certainly there are exceptions). How is it that men pursuing women should just get used to rejection but women pursuing men and getting rejected means men don’t really want women to take a more active role in initiating relationships?
And don’t het women also fantasize about being pursued by beautiful men and also get disgusted by the idea of unattractive men hitting on them?
Jill, I think I see what you mean. I once read a fantasy series of books w/a comedy spin called the myth adventure series by robert asprin. It’s a pretty funny series. One book involves a god-father organized crime society encountering an other-dimensional merlin society. One of the mob bosses has a moll (a female hired companion for sex –or sugar baby I guess you would call it). The way this character is portrayed is very suave. First: she has a phd in psychiatry. 2nd by perpetually acting in an over-sexualized manner: she never has to have sex. Men are… Read more »
Good points, John. It is unfortunate that sometimes women can be bitchy or curt when turning a guy down. Unfortunately I think this is often because they have learned that men will grab onto any sign of encouragement, even a smile and a friendly tone of voice, and not get the message, which only leads to more awkwardness and hurt feelings. Of course, some women are just bitchy by nature.
The whole ball of wax is effed up, no doubt.
I’m in John’s camp on this one. I’ve probably been approached a couple dozen times in my lifetime, and only a small percentage of those times (maybe a half dozen times total) was I approached by someone who was attractive enough that I would have pursued HER given a change in circumstance. All six of these women got at least a date out of it, and I maintained lenghty relationships with at least three of them. I’m an attractive guy who regularly approaches other women and asks them out, and I still LOVE it when I’m approached by an attractive… Read more »
I’ve
I don’t always agree with you, John D, but you make a lot of good points in this post. I can’t claim to speak for ALL women, just for what I’ve experienced and seen, which is how sites like this have to operate. Most people are coming here to get their own questions answered and to look at things from other people’s perspectives. They haven’t done exhaustive research on human behavior. I’ve said before–it’s human nature to have the chase be fun, especially when young, inexperienced, and not ready to settle down. So the PUA thing really might work with… Read more »
Aya, As I’ve mentioned. I’m not actually a member of the PUA community. I’ve read a lot of their sights. I think that even an ethically responsible man could pick and choose from their webpages what to use. I also think that they have a lot to use without being anit-woman. Next: keep in mind that as with anything there are going to be men on the low end of the learning curve on PUA. As those involved with PUA grow their skills, they get a much more nuanced level of negging. It’s supposed to be about teasing, showing that… Read more »
Mark: Here’s how I actually go about getting laid without falling into “jerkish” behaviors. 1. Looks: Looks do matter A LOT to women — not as much as they do to men, but much more so than most women will lead you to believe. Get on a good workout plan (stronglifts 5×5, p90x, and crossfit are all good ones) and stick to it a minimum 5-6 hours per week. Learn about fashion — you don’t have to go crazy with this. I often have women tell me I’m the most fashionable guy they know, and I often go out with… Read more »
Edit: “four hours of work (bullet point 5)” should read “four areas of work”
This makes a lot of sense to me.
Women do care about looks, especially if they’re looking for sex and not a relationship. Guys don’t have to do as much to look good as women, so you don’t have to be a hunk or know about fashion. You can probably go pretty far if you’re just neatly dressed and not overweight.
Having a career and hobbies/interest make people more interesting to others.
Okay let me put the question in a more direct and concrete way. Maybe people can answer that question. Just what precisely ARE the things that women consider asshole behavior with regard to men and sex? One reason I don’t know is that the statements about asshole male behavior are frequently vague and confusing.. For example, the following statement is along the lines of one I have heard numerous times. I think that statements such as this might be the reason I feel nervous and cautious about initiating sex. The statement is: “He thinks I am easy, well he isn’t… Read more »
I don’t know if I can completely answer your question but I often feared that a man who thought I was “easy” would not care about me as a person but would only see me as a booty call. I slept with a guy once when I was 22, a friend of a friend. It was the first time I ever had a one night stand. I was leaving for grad school in a week so it was kind of a fling. I felt a bit slutty afterwards but I left for school and did’t think about him much after… Read more »
Thank you Jill. I had wandered if “easy” meant “doesn’t care for me as a person.” Men are taught. (or at least I felt like I was taught) that making a move under the wrong circumstances is a BAD thing. But when I ask about what wrong circumstances are bad, it seems like people wont give me a clear answer about what those wrong circumstances are. So it makes me wander if my perception that I am being taught that it’s bad to make moves under certain circumstances is just all in my head. But certainly there are circumstances that… Read more »
Mark, I think to a great degree, a jerk is in the eye of the beholder. I think many guys perceive women pursuing men who they (the guys) perceive as being as being jerks, but it’s also important to realize that the women in question probably do not see it that way. They think the guy is fun, exciting, interesting, physically attractive, etc.; they may be impressed with his social status or money; they may see him as a challenge; they may be looking for a certain kind of guy who will be impressive to their peer group (a key… Read more »
Some more thoughts on this– I don’t know if you watched the show “The Sopranos” but there is an interesting plot line in the 3rd season (I think) involving Tony Soprano’s daughter Meadow and her first year at Columbia University. The first two boyfriends she gets are both jerks in different ways. The characters on the show are always very nuanced (one reason it was such a good show) and it is interesting to ask why Meadow makes the choices she does. The first guy, Noah, is an arrogant asshole and not particularly good looking, but Meadow falls for him… Read more »
That a lot of stuff about PUA techniques and why women want or seem to want jerks. For now, I am not interested in that subject. Some things I have picked up from what you wrote. 1. “In other words, if you only want casual sex then be upfront about only wanting casual sex, while convincing the woman that she will have a great time with you.” – Yes, this is good!!! I guess the problem with being upfront is that you can’t be upfront too soon but then if aren’t upfront you are leading her on. The solution generally… Read more »
1. “In other words, if you only want casual sex then be upfront about only wanting casual sex, while convincing the woman that she will have a great time with you.” ========= I think this needs more illumination. Disregarding large group scenes like parties or weddings (in which you should just be respectful–but don’t be afraid to maintain eye contact–the more beautiful, the more important it is to maintain eye contact). However, if you are in a club or on a date, then know this: Every women in the U.S. knows that the primary (not only but always in the… Read more »
Mark, John D’s comments are great. He’s right, women know if a guy is talking to them in a bar, he probably wants sex. It’s not a surprise. Don’t feel bad that you have sex on your mind, most people do (including women). Focus on talking to everyone and being friendly and having a good time no matter what the social situation. Women do want a guy who at ease with himself and her. Be friendly and casual. The woman in the bar who was rude to you sounds like a bitch. However, some women get hit on a lot… Read more »
John, I have to be frank and admit that I am very wary about touching a girl in a sexual way without her permission, although Jill seems to agree with your advice. I recently saw a PUA vid where it recommends that if you get a hard on to let her know by brushing it against her. That only seems sexy to my own perverted self, it’s unbelievable based on everything I know that that’s considered good advice. And yet their was an article that positively appraised them at Salon.com. Jill, you make it sound so simple and it’s almost… Read more »
Mark: Jill ripped me up 1 side & down the other a few pages back (or maybe on a diff article). I’m actually fairly surprised she agreed with me. (A lot of PUA do not involve manipulation, but rather how to carry yourself. Also most of PUA is useless unless you get out and try it. The difference between PUA’s and average men is not their success rate. It’s that PUA’s make DOZENS of approaches per week) You need to build a good solid foundation of building your personal interests and building your speaking skills/comfortableness with speaking to both sexes… Read more »
Jill was mad that I even mentioned PUA.
Yeah I probably did jump all over you for it 🙂 although I don’t remember the specific comment now. Usually I get irritated when guys use PUA teachings to stereotype female behavior — “all women like X and all women do Y because of Z, end of story” — like PUA is the revealed gospel. For example, using PUA to “prove” that women like to mate with “alpha males” and reject “beta males” (whatever those are), hence men (supposedly) need to act like jerks to get laid. Which I don’t believe is true.
LOL, John is right, I actually don’t like a lot of the PUA stuff. They have some tidbits of good insights about how to approach women effectively, but 90% of what’s out there is really awful. There are some really questionable “gurus” and wannabe gurus trying to make a buck and a lot of bloggers and other idiots posting a lot of crap. Rub your hard-on against a woman? That’s a freakin’ terrible idea. Please don’t do that unless you have been making out for, I don’t know, at least 30 minutes, and she’s clearly into it. In casual conversation?… Read more »
Well they were vague but I think they were referring to a dirty dancing situation at a club. Then it vaguely depends on how nasty the dancing maybe but they didnt make that clear so it sounded crazy But according to this “guys ask girls” website page where a guy asks if brushing up a boner when dancing is okay nearly every girl seems to be stoked about a guys boner. I don’t get whats going on. Is this for real? http://www.girlsaskguys.com/Sexuality-Questions/61180-if-a-guy-and-girl-are-flirting-touching-is-it-a.html. “Rub your hard-on against a woman? That’s a freakin’ terrible idea. Please don’t do that unless you have… Read more »
Hi Mark, no I’m not an expert in feminism or woman’s studies, mostly I’m just speaking from my life experience. I’m 44 and I’ve got, well, just a few years of dating and being single and having relationships. 🙂 I went to clubs a lot with friends when I was in my 20’s although that is not my kind of scene now. A few years ago, I became single again after being in a relationship for 7 years and I was feeling really lost so I started reading stuff in the Internet and that’s how I discovered the PUA movement.… Read more »
Mark: First off: If you’re under the impression you’re going to get sex with a woman with only 10 minutes of time, you’re in for a rude awakening. There are the odd stories about love/lust at first sight, but this is rare. It is EXTREMELY RARE for a woman to want to jump a man’s bones at first sight. Women are simply not into looks as much as men–therefore a man has to be in the 99th percentile of looks to pull this off, and it is only with about 5% of women who are most cued into looks. Looks… Read more »
Jill, As far as PUA’s being angry at women–I think that’s somewhat true for the older men (40’s and up) who are divorced (1 or 2 times) and are mad at their exes. But, I think they are also mad at themselves. From what I have seen on the boards, the older divorced members of PUA seem to be mad at themselves because if they had understood what makes a women feel attraction EARLIER, they might have saved their marriages. Also, as you get deeper into PUA (whether you agree or disagree) there seems to be a lot of proof… Read more »
Well John, I don’t agree with everything you say but I agree we live in the Age of Narcissism. However, that is not the fault of women only or men only. I am old enough to be clutching my pearls occasionally about the “younger generation.” However, I would argue that sexual liberation of women and specifically “hookup culture” has benefitted men enormously by increasing opportunities for no-strings-attached sex, which would have been very very hard to find in previous generations (except maybe the late 1960’s). Plenty of men have certainly participated in and encouraged the creation of this culture we… Read more »
First off I am not a jerk am I if I hit on a woman for sex and it’s obviously early because you know it’s the first 15 minutes? Because you say there is no way that is happening, okay I get it. (What about this coming Halloween when there are all those big Halloween parties coming up and everyone is dressing sexy?) “Basically like I said earlier, if you have an emotional connection and the woman is attracted to you, then things are a lot different. The mistake men make is trying to get sexual before both of those… Read more »
Jill: Elite men participated in the destruction of men. That is about 1% of all men. Coincidentally, these elite men are the same ones who stood to gain with lots of care-free sex. It you look at the movie Kramer vs Kramer that movie was about no-fault divorce. That movie was about 20 years ahead of it’s time. No-fault divorce was one of the worst pieces of legislation to rock this nation. And yet, it got almost no fanfare. It swept in silently, and changed things for the worse. Under no fault divorce a bored wife can wreck the marriage… Read more »
Mark:
At this point, we are getting into some really nitty gritty details that are really off-topic for this thread.
My advice:
Do the research I mentioned. Read the blogs, take a public speaking course, get some interesting hobbies/interests, etc..
Any advice given, may or may not work on the first women you try it on. I don’t want you to give up. Do the research. Invest in yourself (public speaking, interests, etc..).
If you want more advice, post your questions on citizen renegade. Often they are patient with newbies.
Mark – I will be blunt, if you are only interested in getting to know a woman for sex, and you want a “yes” within the first 15 minutes, you would be better off hiring a prostitute. The number of women who would be interested in saying “yes” to a sexual offer within 15 minutes of meeting you is astronomically small. It is statistically improbable that you will ever meet that woman. You have to be prepared to put some time and work into it even if you only want sex. Some of the PUA’s talk about achieving sex within… Read more »
John – I think we will have to agree to disagree on a lot of what you say. One could argue that men benefitted from no fault divorce as much as women because now they can dump their wives when they get old and fat and replace them with younger women, which we all know men will do if they get a chance. Right? But that would be a gross oversimplification, just like saying that women are out having rampant sex and cheating and dumping their husbands is a gross oversimplification. I don’t think you can blame all the ills… Read more »
“I will be blunt, if you are only interested in getting to know a woman for sex, and you want a “yes” within the first 15 minutes, you would be better off hiring a prostitute. The number of women who would be interested in saying “yes” to a sexual offer within 15 minutes of meeting you is astronomically small. It is statistically improbable that you will ever meet that woman.” Jill I didn’t really say I wanted to get to yes in 15 minutes. That would be good if it was possible though. I think I must have misstated something… Read more »
Mark, I think I misunderstood you, I thought you were asking if you could ask a woman for sex or tell you that you are interested in sex within 15 minutes. That seemed a little optimistic! So yes you need to give her the idea you are interested pretty quickly — that’s the art of flirting. 🙂 I do think it is tough to get casual sex. There may be a lot of women having sex, but you have to be the guy they want to have sex with. That’s the tough part, that’s the part you have to work… Read more »
Sorry, typing in my phone, meant to say you need to learn the art of flirting because that’s how you show interest in sex without coming out and saying it within 15 minutes.
Okay Jill so you flirt within the first 15 minutes to show an interest in casual sex? But I have to be psychic to know how to do that? John gave some advise about light touching. Is it the sort of thing where if I make compliments of a more physical nature?
So when I think you were saying strangers have hit on you for sex and you weren’t offended it was more like “suggestive flirting” than something more direct?
Hi Mark, you have to read the situation, but yes, if you are interested in a woman you should probably start flirting right away and see how it goes. You are correct, when I mentioned earlier that I wasn’t offended by being hit on by strangers, I was mainly talking about suggestive flirting. No one has ever flat out asked for sex but guys have said things to me like, “Do you want to go someplace quieter than this with me?” or “I’m going home now, want to come with me?” etc. Once a guy asked me if I wanted… Read more »
Jill, When you wrote that men don’t ever ask for sex directly but instead say “want to come to my place” I did not know that for a long time. When men ask for advice on how to get laid some just mean very simple stuff like that and not the weirdly elaborate PUA schemes or their books full of philosophy and cheesy anecdotes but light on How-To. What I don’t get is how you told me that casual sex is hard to come by and I guess you suggested a prostitute or maybe that was just for the “15… Read more »
Hi again Mark, boy it’s complicated. I’m sorry if some ofnthe things I said sound inconsistent. Is it easier than it’s ever been for guys to get casual sex? Probably yes because the stigma for women has declined (although it hasn’t disappeared). But guys still have to work to get casual sex, that’s what I meant by it being tough. I just read an article that said according to some researchers, only about 20% of men and 20% of women on college campuses are actively participating in “hookup culture.” So if that’s accurate it means 80%of the women you meet… Read more »
Jill: One wrinkle: I disagree that no fault divorce helped men in any way. When we had at-fault divorce the person who broke the marriage contract (through addiction, abuse, abandonment or adultery) got little assets and lost custody and if the primary breadwinner lost a sizable share of future earnings. In other words a bored man (under past divorce laws) got punished. With today’s divorce laws, the man gets punished whether at fault or not. In other words–a bored man divorcing achieves the same result under either law. The difference is for women: With at-fault divorce law a wife divorcing… Read more »
Mark: I forgot until now, but another aspect of PUA is called by the acronym IOI. It stands for indicators of interests. PUA books and web pages have a list of IOI, that help clue men into what are cues to search for that the woman is “into you”. According to what I have read, these cues are often subconscious on the womens part. They are not deliberate. This will help you get in the loop of her attraction level. You seem to be worried about making “the move”. My point is that if you spend your time with the… Read more »
Jill: Here is the link to that divorce study: ht tp://www.livestrong.com/article/146100-why-do-women-initiate-divorce/ I strongly disagree with you about divorce. While this may sound bad of me to state: if women initiate 2/3’s of all divorces and state they are divorcing due to boredom & because they know they will get the kids (and considering that mothers DO get custody 13 times as often as fathers) this is important. There is no reason these millions of mothers could not offer an olive branch to the fathers and agree to shared custody. I really believe that if divorce courts favored fathers the way… Read more »
John, I’ve seen that study cited a lot as “proof” that women divorce for frivolous reasons (“I’ve outgrown”). There are other studies out there. According to this one h ttp://www.smartmarriages.com/ams.pdf, the most common reasons for divorce cited by women were lack of commitment, too much conflict and arguing, infidelity, lack of equality, and married too young. The most common reasons cited by men were lack of commitment, too much conflict and arguing, infidelity, unrealistic expectations and married too young. In other words, the reasons are pretty similar. Respondents could give more than one reason: women cited 5 reasons on average,… Read more »
Hey Jill.
That link didn’t work.
Sorry, this is the link http://www.smartmarriages.com/nms.pdf
Hey Jill. I don’t think this marriage study is stating what you think about divorce. The only graph I can see which states a male & female bars for infidelity is actually titled: Extent to Which Other Stated Reasons for Divorce Predict Saying That Domestic Violence Was a Major Reason In other words it has to do with predictors of DV being stated as a major reason based on the other reasons given–not upon the percentage of incidence of infidelity. (Not to mention that simply stating Infidelity could be one on either party). In addition if you look at the… Read more »
The tables are confusing because they have the captions reversed. The 2nd table on that page shows the percentage or respondents who gave different reasons for divorce. 40% of women gave DV as one of several reasons. My point is that it is very easy to find studies and surveys that support any view you want. Finding that other study took me all of 45 seconds on Google. I’m sure there are thousands of studies on the causes of divorce. You should’ rely on any one synopsis of any one study as “proof” of anything. In the study you cite,… Read more »
Jill, the bar graph doesn’t state what you claimed. Also: * it’s not a study of why women initiate divorce, but a study of all divorces. i.e. many of these women had divorce initiated upon them * the sample size of female divorcees was only 200 * since this is a study of 200 women divorced (including ex-hubby initiating) infidelity could mean cheating by either spouse, so even if the titles are switched this 70% infidelity rate means nothing to identify the rate women are CHEATED UPON You stood this article up as a refutation of the study I linked… Read more »
John, I’m not going to argue with you about the validity of one study vs. another, I really have no idea. I told you I spent 45 seconds on Google, I’m not writing a thesis on this. As I said, there are a lot of studies out there. The study YOU keep citing is actually synopsis, posted on a website, which has very little information about the actual study, except that it apparently involved a bunch of lawyers looking at divorce filings. I can’t tell from that how they reached their conclusions or whether their conclusions are valid, or whether… Read more »
Hey Jill: If finding evidence to support your beliefs is only worth a maximum of 45 seconds, that’s your personal choice. Here is the actual study reported on in the livestrong.com article. Just some ideas: Just because something is unpalatable doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. It may be a craptastic message that the majority of this whole sh*tty ball of wax (the shark tank of dating and instability of marriage) can be laid to fickle women availing themselves of the intense female advantage in family courts but that doesn’t mean it’s not happening. I think we’re raising our girls and… Read more »
ht tp://www.unc.edu/courses/2006fall/econ/586/001/Readings/Brinig.pd f
Dear Lord, the good men project is devolving into some misandric nonsense. At least post another “letter” that tells women to control THEIR primal urges NOT to sleep with “jerks” no? Not just two sentences on how “women can be manipulative too!”? Or does that not merit a full article?
Colin your advice just isn’t the route for me. Prostitution is just too impersonal for me to get any enjoyment out. I have tried that route and it doesn’t work for me, but Thank You. So again here is my question for somebody helpful ton answer: This article does not fully tell you what not to do to be called a “jerk”. For one thing manipulation is not the only “jerk” move at least as I understand it, there are another of other ways that men get called jerks. One reason that men ask about how to get laid without… Read more »
Mark, Why are you spending so much time and energy worrying about a problem that you don’t have? Being called a jerk isn’t a life sentence. What some people find egregious and offensive, others find funny and interesting. You can’t control for every variable. Quit looking to other people to decide what’s acceptable behavior for you. I have my own personal code of ethics when it comes to sex and women — and I stick to it. For me, it’s 1) Don’t lie or deceive, 2) Don’t force anyone to do anything against their will, and 3) Be honest and… Read more »
Thank you. You are right. You are saying a lot of things that I wish more people would say. Not every women has the same criteria over what they think makes a guy a jerk. (Aggressive pursuit isn’t the same thing as getting a person in bed for casual sex at least as I see it-why does everyone seem to equate having sex with having a relationship? According to some people if you want to take a girl you are having sex with to the movies and other stuff then you are in a relationship-I just don’t get it. Doesn’t… Read more »
Mark, as you’re seeing, no one (at least, no one female) can answer your question. No one can tell you “how to get laid,” despite the article title that promises exactly that. All they can do is tell you what NOT to do–specifically, a long list of complaints about things that guys do that make them jerks. NO ONE will ever tell you specific, positive steps you can take to actually GET LAID; they will only deliver a lot of “don’ts” that tell you nothing. The most frustrating are the ones who tell you things that you already know, through… Read more »
This article does not fully tell you what not to do to be called a “jerk”. For one thing manipulation is not the only “jerk” move at least as I understand it, there are another of other ways that men get called jerks. One reason that men ask about how to get laid without being a jerk is that they fear missing out on an opportunity to have sex (which is a good thing in my opinion!) just because of misplaced fears. When I was growing up I was taught that all women were offended if the guy wasn’t in… Read more »
Mark, While I appreciate that women are posting on this, I think one wrinkle is this: Individual women are on here posting and saying “this is what all women want”. The thing is, no individual women can come on here and post what “all women want”. I can’t come on here and post “what all men want”. Because I don’t know. Here’s my main beef with what a lot of women on here are posting: They CLAIM they don’t want jerks, however they don’t seem very concerned with the REALITY that MANY MANY women in their 20’s (which is really… Read more »
Typo:
Any man who treats a beautiful women likes she’s NOTHING SPECIAL
I appreciate what you have to say here. And I think that women who make the claim that ALL women are such and such are obviously wrong…… However I am asking a very different question than you are responding to…. My question is about how to go about getting laid without being a jerk. I want someone to answer my question. To me it’s an urgent and important question. Would somebody please read my above post and begin an intelligent discussion with me that does not involve condescension or a lecture ( for that matter venting about how frustrating their… Read more »
Mark my man, I’ll give you the same advice that I gave Colin. Pay for it. This assumes of course that you’re not in a jurisdiction where paying for it is illegal. It isn’t where I’m at. The transaction is brutally honest. No one has any illusions on either side (unlike many other such liasons obtained in a conventional manner). Treat each other with respect and dignity and have a whale of a time. If that’s not what you want, and who does over the long term really, hear me out. You want to obtain sex without being a jerk.… Read more »
Oh yeah, I also got to have sex with a couple of bodybuilders (definitely worth your time. Check it out). Hair models, hand models, women of every ethnicity and race. Women of different sizes (in every department too).
And best of all, I met my sweet love through this process. Hands down the finest woman I’ve ever met. For her, I’ve given all that racket up and now I enjoy happiness in her company. Ah… The good life. It’s there for you Mark if you’ll reach out and take it!
The Wet One.
I would take a public speaking course. Maybe get a life coach (much different than a therapist. A life coach will help you set goals to help you grow as a person and give you good advice on how to achieve them) Start finding some interests that you like. Next year I plan on taking up hang-gliding. Their are fun things to do in each state that don’t require athleticism: like cave spelunking or trail walking. You can join a singles trail walkers group, or singles bowling. You could look up PUA websights. The best one I have seen is… Read more »
Great article. This should be handed out in sex ed classes in high school.