The only people who think all men are rapists, Soraya Chemaly writes, are, well, rapists.
Do you really doubt the idea of rape culture?
On any given day you can, if you chose, participate in an entertaining and informative pop culture rape happening. This week started with Salon’s Glenn Greenwald making jokes about President Obama raping nuns and week before last, #ItAintRapeIf, a fun Twitter hash tag was trending. You can find popular TV shows and movies and lists of music with rapey lyrics to hyper-real, 3-D video games like RapeLay (which went viral last year), in which players help the hero rape a mother and her two daughters. Facebook still has its controversial rape pages. Rape talk, as in “that was just like being raped,” long indulged in by right-wing shock jocks is now regularly slang. I mention all of this while admitting that Sarah Silverman, famous (or notorious) for her rape jokes, is one of my all time favorite comedians. How about last week’s “Who Would You Rape?” University of Vermont fraternity survey? And, of course, there is Penn State. Wonder how adults shield child rapists and perfectly nice boys play rape games? These examples are rape culture manifest. If you are not sure what rape culture looks like, this is it: sexual violence—overwhelmingly against girls and women—tolerated, excused and normalized through attitudes, norms, practices, and media.
It is hard to get people to acknowledge the startling reality of rape or to even imagine a world where rape isn’t happening at the rate of once every two minutes in the course of a regular day in the US. There are lots of ways that we talk about rape that perpetuate myths or diffuse the reality of what is an overwhelmingly gendered crime, the threat and reality of which vastly disproportionately affects women.
That does NOT mean that all men are rapists. The only people who think all men are rapists are, well, rapists. However, ninety-nine percent of the perpetrators of single offender sexual assault crimes, according to the Department of Justice’s National Crime Victimization Survey, are men, including boys being sexually abused. Pointing this out is not a feminist attempt to eradicate and undermine men and masculinity. It’s explaining the degree with which the crime can genuinely be seen as gender-based and why I think it’s important that individual stories be told in the context of rape as part of a larger dynamic of power.
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I’m also not saying that women don’t rape and sexually abuse children. Sexual assault of children, girls and boys, are part of rape culture, which is defined by its cultivation of specific, violent, male sexual aggression. However, when rape comes up in discussion, there is often a reflexive pointing out that women rape, too, as in this Women Rape, Too post. Saying that sexual violence affects girls and women disproportionately does not mean that boys’ and men’s experiences of assault and rape are in any way less relevant or horrific. In statistical terms, however, right now, while data on female sexual assault is hard to gather and verify for reasons listed below, it’s exactly like pointing out that some men get breast cancer every time the subject of women’s breast cancer fatalities comes up. According to the CDC study, in the US, between 1% and 2% of men have been raped or experienced an attempted rape, often by an intimate partner, almost always male, (many when they were younger than 11) compared to 20% of women. That 1-2% is a total – not just those where there may be female perpetrators.
The CDC study revealed that boys are twice as likely to be raped as children – 28% of male rape victims reported being raped between the ages of 6-10, after which the incidence of assaults drops off, versus 12% of girls, for whom the incidence peaks in their teens through twenties, but virtually never ends. No reliable source, including RAINN, The Department of Justice, the Centers for Disease Control, Advocates for Youth among others, has any substantive and quantitatively sound information regarding the incidence of single offender female perpetrators of abuse. This isn’t because of a boy hating, man-bashing feminist conspiracy. It’s because a) our culture doesn’t like admitting male weakness, b) it is rarely reported and/or c) it is actually comparatively rare. Interestingly, the breakdown for multiple offender crimes is different: 59% male, 12.9% female and 22.9% male/female combined.
Our news media has been filled, sadly, in recent years by stories of boys being raped by priests, coaches and other trusted adults. But these reports, which highlight the vulnerability of boys, is disproportionate considering female rape as part of a pandemic spectrum of sexual violence against girls and women, which typically begins at adolescence and, unlike the abuse of boys, does not taper down after adolescence. This isn’t dismissing boys’ abuse or adult male victimization, only pointing out a bias in coverage that incorporates typical approaches to “debunking” rape realities and perpetuating rape myths. The exact same culture that supports rape myths and apologies related to victim blaming, defining consent, accusing women of lying, contribute to the difficulty of getting accurate information about boys being victimized. Here are some ways that the rape experiences of boys and men are specifically denied, ignored and hidden—not by feminism—but by sexism, misogyny and the application of heteronormative standards:
- Traditionally, and I use that word very specifically, rape has been considered part of a natural order, in other words, the normal consequence of how men and women are built. In this scenario, women are passive, weak and often temptresses; men are physically strong, violently sexual and unable to help themselves when provoked. This definition of sexuality, which by the way is an essential component of abstinence-only “sex ed,” is narrow and results in a restrictive, forcible, male-on-female definition of rape. It certainly doesn’t allow for boys to be victims, certainly not at the hands of women or even of adult men. As Advocates for Youths points out: “Male victimization is particularly hard to estimate due to beliefs that only girls can be abused; that sex between older women and boys is desirable; that male victimization of boys indicates lack of masculinity and/or acquiescence by the child.” Gender stereotypes in the employ of sexism and misogyny are to blame for that. Not feminists fighting against rape culture.
- Sexual assault of children by women is underreported because patriarchal, cultures don’t like admitting that women can be sexually motivated or use sex to wield power in aggressive and monstrous ways. That would mean admitting that some women are more “like men,” not the champions of a higher morality, not weaker, not all naturally more “nurturing.” That’s a lot of subversive information if you want to highlight how vulnerable and dependent women are. In addition, in the same environments, boys grow up knowing that to be weak or powerless in particularly when the aggressor is female is a big no-no.
- Lastly, as Hugo Schwyzer pointed out here—which was one of the catalysts to huge controversy, men should be angry—not at feminists for describing rape culture, but at rape culture’s insistence on a vile definition of male sexuality that has violence at its core and that makes suspicion of all man the only rational approach to safety.
It’s hard to step back from the horror of rape, particularly the rape of children, to consider the larger context in which it happens, especially in a forum dedicated to the primacy of individual stories and experiences. There is a qualitative difference between saying men rape women and women rape men and that difference gets eliminated when you tell individual stories without context. Male-on-female rape is part of a larger system of violence and oppression—this is a fundamental aspect of rape theory. Boys and men don’t have to think about being the victims of rape on a regular basis. (And comparing being mugged to an underlying perpetual awareness of vulnerability to rape is just sloppy and inaccurate in terms of scope or effect.) Rape—the threat of it, the frequency of it, the gendered reality of it—is one of a long list of ways that women are controlled in private and public spaces. Men don’t alter the cadence of their days—their commutes, hobbies, jogging paths, sleeping habits, parking routines, dog walking, working hours—because they have to consider being raped. Women, not even consciously, incorporate their protective responses and defenses into everything they do. Girls learn that they have to do that in their first introduction to gender based inequities after a childhood of hearing that boys and girls are equal. Raising the specter of women raping boys implies a false equivalence and doesn’t help us understand and change a culture where rape—the power, the crime, the threat, and the jokes—is acceptable.
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A lot of the debate over rape culture theory that I’ve read here hinges on its being filtered through the lens of individual stories instead of the other way round. As a result it ends up being misrepresented as an individual man-bad/perpetrator, woman-good/victim argument. The problem of rape is not a problem of individual men and women. It’s a culture that we live with—a systemization of harm that we are immersed in. Rape, regardless of whom it happens to, is horrible and violent and dehumanizing. Only men can stop rape. Organizations like My Strength, Men Can Stop Rape, Advocates for Youth and others are working hard to do that. Books like the The Guys Guide to Feminism, with its illustrated rules of consent, is another good start. To me, good men and women are people who say this has to end. They stop deflecting, trivializing and joking about it and then do something to change it.
—Photo Boa-sorte&Careca/Flickr
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1. Your statistics are inaccurate. I presume this was written when the NCVS was the only resource available, but no credible academic would have ever used that data without doing the research on it, and the research would have told you that the study used a definition of rape designed to exclude rape committed by women against men by counting only penetrative rape. You are guilty of poor research, something which is not even tolerated among students and is a dereliction of your academic duty. Please read this article for an interpretation of more recent results: http://www.genderratic.com/?p=836. I of course… Read more »
“Do you really doubt the idea of rape culture?” Yes. What I take issue with in the expression ‘rape culture’ is the juxtaposition of the words, the conflation (to borrow a word from so many activist articles) of ‘rape’ and ‘culture.’ Expressions such as ‘sports culture’ or ‘martial culture’ or ‘hedonistic culture’ imply value. The idea in front of the word ‘culture’ is important and valued in the society it is describing. Persons who excel at the particular culture are awarded higher status. I don’t think it is an accident that the poorly defined and ill used concept of ‘rape… Read more »
The Entry for “Rape Culture” at Wikipedia, as referenced by the OP has been updated and tagged to warn users that the Neutrality of the entry and its Validity are questionable and in the process of being addressed with editors. In particular the page conflicts with other wiki pages on such matters as “Causes of sexual violence” – which states “Examples of behaviors said to typify rape culture include victim blaming, trivializing prison rape, and sexual objectification.” The “Rape Culture” page omits many recognised manifestations of Trivialisation and in particular “trivializing prison rape” – which is seen an gendered and… Read more »
Update: It seems that some at Wikipedia are listening.
The Definitions being applied are being made “Gender Neutral” – as they should have been throughout.
Matters are progressing and it is to be hoped that in the near future it may be a source worth referencing and which provides valid and accurate information for all who use it or refer to it.
Update on the Update – Wiki was updated again whilst I was updating on the last update!
In all the media attention to breast cancer, I hear very little mention at all that men can have it, too. I don’t see why it shouldn’t me mentioned more. Richard Rountree, the original Shaft, is a survivor of breast cancer and had much of his pecs removed because of it. Surely this could be a men’s health issue, too. Very irony about men and breast cancer: the local fundraising 5K race to raise money to fight breast cancer is for women only, even though a few men do get breast cancer. I can donate, but I can’t walk/run/roll in… Read more »
“Very small irony”
That’s just silly.
Had the same issue here in The UK!
The charity has to change it’s mind as they received Government Funding for research.
Gender based discrimination caused Human Rights Abuse – Article 14 – so they had the choice, be sexists or loose all funding and face very bad media which would hit donations.
It seems that Money and Media count! They even encouraged men to wear bras as they ran, to up the media value!
this discussion reminded me of this http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2008/01/10/deconstructing-rape-culture/ “But how can a term “facilitate” discussion when it is so ambiguous? If one merely wishes to emphasize that rape is, amongst other things, an expression of beliefs and attitudes which are not unique to the rapist, why use a term, “rape culture,” which can be legitimately used to mean: a culture of male dominance which is shored up by rape? I believe that what the term “rape culture” — like “patriarchy” — really does is foster an apparent solidarity between feminists of quite different persuasions. To believe (1) that men as a… Read more »
Rape Culture Joyce Williams Extract Rape culture is a concept of unknown origin and of uncertain definition; yet it has made its way into everyday vocabulary and is assumed to be commonly understood. The award-winning documentary film Rape Culture made by Margaret Lazarus in 1975 takes credit for first defining the concept. The film’s narration relies heavily on jargon such as “rapism” and “phallocentric society” and is more illustrative than definitive in dealing with rape as depicted in movies, music, and other forms of entertainment. Authors of the popular Transforming a Rape Culture define the phenomenon as “a complex of… Read more »
I have two questions for Ms Soraya Chemaly to answer. You linked to Wikipedia – a known site that has accuracy and impartiality issues. Subsequently you refer readers to Blackwell Reference Online – a source of credible reputation in the field of Social Sciences. The post above is from there and is recognised as quite authoritative and accurate. Blackwell say of their own work: “Clear, concise, expert definitions and explanations of the key concepts written by leading scholars in the field. An essential reference for expert and newcomer alike, with entries ranging from short definitions of key terms to extended… Read more »
Nothing like starting the week with a bang. Here are my responses to comments throughout, which I’ve summarized into the following areas: 1. Statistics…I’m not abusing statistics or being dishonest about them. I’m using readily available numbers from large scale studies while admitting their limitations due to definitions. In addition, I stated clearly that changes in definitions and culture will make the recognition of male victimization easier and better understood. I did take issue, which I addressed in earlier comments, with the use of very small sample size studies referenced in comments. 2. The issue of qualitative versus quantitative. My… Read more »
Patriarchy the term is not a feminist fantasy, they took the term and built fantasies and lies around it.
And Shakeville is a propaganda site, they tell bare faced lies about abuse.
They are so intellectually dishonest they define rape culture as not acknowledging victims, and talk about abuse as if it were gendered, in other words, shaksville promote rape culture, as do you and mist feminists.
Its not that people don’t understand, its that they do.
Soraya, you erased the existence of male victims of female abuse with this statement: “But these reports, which highlight the vulnerability of boys, is disproportionate considering female rape as part of a pandemic spectrum of sexual violence against girls and women” How can I ever listen to your reasonings when you throw those boy victims under a bus without considering the fact that these boys, and male victims in general, suffer enough stigmitization in their life that they don’t need someone like you yet again contributing to their erasure? And MediaHound just debunked your rape culture useage. The fact you… Read more »
Eagle “And MediaHound just debunked your rape culture useage.” Actually I can’t take credit. The more I delve and the more I research, the more I find people both men and women who have been there well ahead of me. It just seems that “Rape Culture” is so poorly defined that as a Meme, it just gets adapted to ignore rational reality. I keep finding incidents of academics being quoted and cited as accepting the Noun “Rape Culture” and then corrections having to be made as the person cited will not use the term and they are not happy. It… Read more »
@MediaHound
Why do feminists want to make rape a culture?
Well Culture has three recognised meanings; 1) Excellence of taste in the fine arts and humanities, also known as high culture 2) An integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon the capacity for symbolic thought and social learning 3) The set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution, organization, or group It seems that some are attempting to use 3 but it’s getting mixed up with 2 – and then you have SlutWalk which is actually attempting to be 1. … and of course it should always be remembered that if you… Read more »
Would you say that rape and sexual assault are real issues for men? Would you say that violence against humans, sexual violence can be and often is endemic in times of war, prisons, and systems where classes of people are highly divided? I would. I’d say above all we live in a culture where violence is nearly celebrated and sexual pleasure is downplayed. Sexuality is often highlighted, but not in terms of peacable relations, but conquest, kabuki porn, and who’s on top in the games people play. Rape winds up in a nexus there. I’d like to see less of… Read more »
Julie “Would you say that rape and sexual assault are real issues for men?” Define issue? I have had to deal with the aftermath of Sexual Assault against men – and it’s one hell of an issue. It covers all age ranges. I have dealt with a 3 year old at one end of the spectrum – and a 93 year old at the other end. The three year old was abused by a family member – the 93 year old by a carer who also had sadomasochistic tendencies! That Carer – she was a right character – abused every… Read more »
You do not have to convince me of abuse. I have also worked with the elderly (calling CPS on more occasions than I can count). Abuse? I believe. I believe its part of a culture that allows for violence. Or, if culture is not something biological, which I’d hate to believe (that abusive behavior is just coded into our DNA). I do have issues with men having issues about sexual abuse since it’s clear that they suffer from it and, yes, some do perpetrate it. This is the problem. All humans do. We can either assume all of us are… Read more »
Just read a comment on huffy post that has so much ignorance it makes me want to bang the stupid out of my head right now. How strong is that desk? First step to removing the demonization is showing the true level of male suffering, and female perpetration to remove the stereotype of male abuser, female victim ALWAYS. When people can remove that gender stereotype and see a man as a human first, a woman as a human first, before thinking Oh men, have alll the powerrr, men are majority of rapists! etc and actually see a human, someone who… Read more »
What occurs more often, rape or violent assault, especially of males? What is feature more on TV and movies, rape or violent assault of males? What are more movies themed on, rape or violent assault of males? What is more likely to be framed as a joke in the media? A women being raped by a man or a man being violently attacked by a woman? Who are more popular, even considered heros, rapists or people who are known to be expert at violent assault, especially of males? What is more celebrated in our culture, rape or violence, especially of… Read more »
I would argue that there is a culture of violence period. Human on human, with humans apparently using politics to further violence in all directions. At this point I would not be able to tell you which stats were true, which were false, and which were just being manipulated for someone’s purpose, MRA or Feminist.
That’s what I would argue.
“I would argue that there is a culture of violence period.”
It’s clear that violence affects far more people than does rape, both men and women, but especially men.
So, why don’t feminists claim that there is a “violence culture” or “violence against males culture”, both of which occur far more frequently than rape and has had a far bigger impact on the humanity?
I suspect many of them do. I do. They can believe in both, or assume the existence of both. I don’t see why this always has to be a “One Ring To Rule Them All” kind of deal. Most feminism I’ve experienced is social justice based, looking to even playing fields all over the place, not a zero sum game. The women and men I know who consider themselves feminist (and I mean know personally) seek equal rights across a wide intersection of cultures/isms/whathaveyou. I myself can only do so much, and you don’t have to believe a word I… Read more »
“I suspect many of them do. I do.” If that is true, why are there literally thousands of comments by feminists and articles on this site alone using the term “rape culture” but zero on “violence against men culture” or even “violence culture?” Why is that? If feminism were not zero sum-based movement, feminists would not have used the term “rape culture” thousands of times but “violence against men culture” and “violence culture” zero times. This article, others like it, and the thousands of comments are evidence of what the feminist movement is about. “I myself can only do so… Read more »
Well, here is my piece. I’m not a national mouthpiece for feminism, but I am a feminist, so take a look.
https://goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/heresy-rape-statistics-and-getting-away-from-the-poles/
Soraya mentioned a “16Days of Awareness campaign this year focused on reducing militarism” which is a good start. Another would be for people to still enjoy their wargames etc but to grow empathy for the reality of the situation. I can enjoy killing in a game, because I know it’s fiction, as soon as it turns real I get concerned. We need to ensure our kids aren’t exposed to hate speech, eg against muslims after 9/11, or American citizens in many countries that hate them. Cultures of violence, fear, hate exist all around the globe and they do have a… Read more »
Julie, I didn’t have time to read it all but it is an improvement over this and all the other “rape culture” articles, for a certainty – and the countless other rape articles that feminists have been posted here. So, thank you for that. You keep h I’m sure you mean well. However, I haven’t seen evidence that social justice for all is even attempted by a movement that is itself polarized, where the focus is on a single demographic, with little to no concern for any others. Feminism is not the only example of this but it certainly is… Read more »
No violence is very much being reduced all over the place. It’s acceptable when used against only a shrinking pool of people including men and foreigners and especially foreign men.
Well I don’t find it acceptable at all. https://goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/heresy-rape-statistics-and-getting-away-from-the-poles/
Is this funny – and how does it fit in the “Rape Culture™” world?
http://youtu.be/w7pNiELcZsg
This is even better 130,927,905 views on YouTube.
How does this fir into the “Rape Culture™” world?
http://youtu.be/EVBsypHzF3U
You better not be dissing LadyGaga! 🙂
David – I’m just wondering how here video should be viewed in light of –
“describing a culture in which rape and sexual violence against women are common and in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media condone, normalize, excuse, or tolerate sexual violence against women.”
I am surprised that there has been less outcry and such high viewing figures. Then you also have to consider Gaga and her Drag King motife where she is repeatedly seen “Acting Out” macho and groping and fondling women – and them laughing for the Camera. Such odd dissonance.
Julie – I know you get it – I wrote it in the hope that some others who need to hear the message may just read it!
Pint? I need some frat types with a tube – a funnel – and a full keg! P^)
Whiskey. Now.
I see rape just as another crime. Arrest the accused, give him/her a fair trial and punish him/her. Nobody is responsible for the crime except the criminal.
@ MediaHound
I was never even remotely involved in sexual violence. Does that make me an uncultured man in feminist jargon??? Should I feel ashamed for that??
I think I need to hit my head against a desk for a few minutes. We don’t. I don’t. Good lord.
@Julie
I have one question haunting my mind as to what qualifies you to call yourself feminist??
There are several people who call themselves feminists take different stance on different issues and when feminism is attacked loudly cry out not all feminists are like that. It is really confusing.No rhetoric please. Try to keep it under 30 words.
Do you mean because I don’t act like a feminist or because I defend them? I’m suspicious of your question at this point. What are you confused about I’ll use as many words as I want. I have considered myself a feminist because I believe women are equal human beings to men, because I believe men are also treated like shit under the current system of western masculinity we have going on, and because I think we could work on things together so that men and women could both benefit from getting out from under some old systems that treat… Read more »
“I have considered myself a feminist because I believe women are equal human beings to men” Most people agree, but are not feminists, including me. “because I believe men are also treated like shit under the current system of western masculinity we have going on,” I’m masculine and live in the west. The system is and cannot meet the needs of everyone; however, masculinity (men) is not to blame. That view is one of the reasons most women steer clear of feminism. “because I think we could work on things together so that men and women could both benefit from… Read more »
I know your positions Eric M. I’m still suspicious of Rapses questions. He knows my positions already.
@ Julie – Rapses loves to ask questions – he hates answering them!
He does have bizarre ways! P^)
Correction:
The system is broken and cannot meet the needs of everyone; however, masculinity (men) is not to blame.
@ Julie
You are suspecting me for what?
I answered your question, what were you confused about?
The definition of feminism in Wikipedia is “Feminism is a collection of movements aimed at defining, establishing and defending equal political economic and social rights for women.” Everybody wants all the rights, but what about the duties that are necessary to sustain those rights. Feminists want rights without responsibility though affirmative actions and biased laws.
@Rapses – are you seriously quoting Wikipedi as an authoritative source to prove what Feminism is?
Any idiot can edit it ! I can so easily add to it and have it read “And all feminists are made form Blue Cheese and Worship Danny Devito as an Idol make from chocolate”.
Any credibility you have has just vanished – you really need to get some better sources with some Rigour and Quality – because your views lack both, and you damaged yourself – no-one did it for you!
Nice Own Goal – Better Luck Next Time!
Try this Link http://www.blackwellreference.com/public/tocnode?id=g9780631233176_chunk_g97814051025449_ss1-5
Rapses,
It was a Gotcha question. You ask my my opinion then come back with your own beliefs. You and I cannot discuss things. Our world views (and if you are the same Rapses that I’ve seen at The Spearhead) appear diametrically opposite. On things like LGBT issues, family definitions, women’s issues, even I’m guessing men’s issues, it is as if we come from different planets.
@ Rapses “Try to keep it under 30 words”?
Nice attempt at control there rapses – so you want to control the questions – and control the definitions and then control how many words people have to respond?
Is there anything you don’t want to have control over? P^)
@ Rapses
I have one question haunting my mind as to what qualifies you to keep asking questions of people over and over, and avoid answering questions posed to you ??
So No More Haunting. Why Do You Do it?
@MediaHound “Rapses loves to ask questions – he hates answering them!” Yes, I love asking questions to get opinion of other people. I do not hate answering them. If you have any questions for me, please feel free to ask them. I would reply them point by point. I certainly have some bizarre ways and trust me you are neither first nor last person to point it out. “Are you seriously quoting Wikipedia as an authoritative source to prove what Feminism is?” Well the quotation from Wikipedia was just a passing reference to make a broad outline of the term… Read more »
You asked me why I was a feminist! In my own words not rhetoric. Because I believe that women are equal to men and because I want to strive for laws, policies and so forth that support both men and women as equals. As for my responsibility? I vote, I pay taxes, I participate, I listen, I work for my living, I pay bills, I participate equally as a parent. I’ve not been given extra chances (so far as I know) to get into college or jobs. No one let me take the tests more than once cause I was… Read more »
@Julie and MediaHound I admit that my question was an intellectual ambush. I am a movie buff and let me explain my position with an analogy from a famous movie: “In Bruce Lee’s movie “Enter the Dragon,” the last fight scene is between Bruce Lee and the villain Han. The villain hides himself room full of mirrors where he sees many reflections of the villain and is confused. The villain knows his position but he does not know villain’s position to attack. He tries unsuccessfully to pin down Han but he cannot do it because he cannot differentiate between reflections… Read more »
@Julie
It is rather tricky situation. Let me use another analogy: I want to exorcise the evil spirit of feminism from the mind of feminists. It was in good faith, but sometimes, ends justify means.
I want to back Soraya up on point number 4, and a few other points. Soraya and I did talk about this post a lot before it ran. Our goal is to help solve these big, difficult to talk about issues together. To make social and cultural changes in which human beings can live lives without fear of sexual assault and abuse. To stop using sex as a weapon by anyone. We listen to men here, on GMP, we listen to their stories and we listen to how men think about the issues of importance. We also ask a small… Read more »
I’m not sure the patriarchy is ever going to be a commonality of language, there are valid arguments for and against it and it really won’t fly without acceptance of female privilege. We also need to understand the aspect of power differs by culture, what goes on in Afghanistan and what goes on in Australia for instance are probably wildly different. It might help to indicate which culture we’re talking about, as I find the cultures worldwide greatly vary. There is violence I’ve received from women without others batting an eyelid that would probably get them belted up badly in… Read more »
Lisa – I agree with most of your sentiments! However – when an OP uses references that are so widely disputed and known to be highly contentious is such a laissez-faire manner – and even opens with a laissez-faire rhetorical question – which they then supposedly go on to answer with laissez-faire – I’m sorry, but It does not matter who writes or who edits It “Stinks”! I wonder why the US Government wont use the term “Rape Culture” in a single publication? 35 Plus years and even the US Government will not use it? Heaven sake – they even… Read more »
Hey MediaHound,
You know I am always thankful for your attention to detail and careful questions, especially around language. We are running some additional posts around this issue, thanks!
Lisa – I would actually prefer Soraya Chemaly to address my specific concerns in the following post. https://goodmenproject.com/gender-sexuality/rape-culture-men-women-power/comment-page-3/#comment-91590 As editor you have one responsibility – but as the author Soraya Chemaly does have quite another from a “Privileged” position. To cite one source that is known to be riddled with inaccuracy and bias and then defend it by deferring to a higher quality source – it is totally unacceptable. It is reprehensible and to be met with Unbridled Opprobrium – and as you have acknowledged, I choose my words with care and an very quick to pick up less than… Read more »
Lisa, It’s pretty hard to find any commonality with a person who tells victims of rape by women that “Only men can stop rape. She either explicitly dismiss and denies what happened to me or she at best denies that the woman who did rape me could have refrained from doing that. Surely it’s understandable that I find her assurances that she thinks all rape is horrible sounds hollow and insincere in light of that. And statements like “specter of women raping men” just cements the impression that this is no person who have any empathy for male victims because… Read more »
Hi Tamen — your points are good. I take responsibility for letting that line go through. I don’t have a blind spot because I think it is true, I have a blind spot because what we are trying to do here is create a community site where all voices can be heard — but organized in a way to fit under that umbrella of “what does it mean to be a good man in the 21st century?” This is a huge initiative and we don’t have the resources to edit every sentence of every piece. What we would like is… Read more »
Hi Lisa. I am heartened to see a response to the point from you. You made your stance regarding that sentence unequivocally clear. Thank you for that. I made the comment because you did say you talked with the author about the article prior to publication and although I understand that the views put forth by the authors are not necessarily the same as any of the editor’s view I thought that an editorial process implies that you in some way can and do influence the article’s final form. I assumed that if you saw that sentence you would think… Read more »
Tamen, thanks for asking. When we first started The Good Men Project, we set ourselves up like a traditional magazine — we had an Editor-in-Chief who oversaw everything, and who managed a team of editors underneath him. We got most of our content for free, but also paid for a few pieces that were written by journalists, edited and fact-checked according to strict editorial guidelines such as those used at the NYTimes and other mass media companies. That model, while it worked to get consistently well-written, thoughtful content out there, was unsustainable as a business model. We were putting time… Read more »
Tamen The usage and contrasting of content also acts to marginalise: “And, of course, there is Penn State. Wonder how adults shield child rapists and perfectly nice boys play rape games? These examples are rape culture manifest. If you are not sure what rape culture looks like, this is it: sexual violence—overwhelmingly against girls and women—tolerated, excused and normalized through attitudes, norms, practices, and media.” So first it’s Penn State and Male Rape of Children is Rape Culture made Manifest – and in the next sentence the “Overwhelming Trope” is used to just dismiss it and marginalise. It’s also the… Read more »
I have to agree with Tamen, her saying “Only men can stop rape” really made me wonder about bigotry. I’ve tried for a while to understand why someone would say that but to me it really feels like she isn’t accepting female responsibility. It actually hurts to hear only men can end abuse when I know for a fact it’s not only men perpetrating it, it’s quite unfair to dump ALL responsibility on men to end it. Even if only 1% of rapes were by women, that still means women have responsibility to not rape along with men, every human… Read more »
I think part of the issue with the “patriarchy” example is we’re living in a time where those issues are changing fast and have already changed quite heavily. Also the power men have over women is under question, with women having the majority vote in America now by 8million if other comments are correct and much of consumer spending controlled by women (as in power of supporting media by purchases) many are left wondering how much extra power men have. Where does violence fit in, if women and men both suffer terribly from violence. From what I see males suffer… Read more »
Archy, I spoke with Dr. Black at the Department of Justice to verify numbers and review methodology. Please refer to two specific tables: Table 44 and Table 38. I just tried to insert them here but it failed. I am comparing genders because I think it is valid to look at rape in the context that I bring up which is one of persistent oppression ranging from infant gendercide, bride burning, acid baths, genital mutilation, rape as a tactic of war, etc. I think your point about war and violence is well-taken, which is why 16Days of Awareness campaign this… Read more »
Thank-you. Might want to ask Dr Black to clarify on whether envelopment/forced to penetrate is included in rape. The 12 month stat for male victims is under “Other Sexual Assault”, and is called “Forced to penetrate” so it isn’t included at all under the rape stats. This is why many of us are annoyed and feel it’s biased, as it leaves out a large chunk of male victimization and I personally don’t like comparing the stats either until rape is defined much better. As it stands, the mechanics of sex and men being the vast majority of penetrators, it means… Read more »
5. Arguing about rape culture. Yes, I did cite Wikipedia because, quite frankly it is a good summary. However, here are some books I have read and sources that might be useful for anyone interested in where this viewpoint comes from. I see – so you provide citation to stats – and citation to books – and a link to Wikipedia? Have you NOTED the long and very Extensive dispute over the source you linked to? Do you have an original Citation for “Rape Culture™”? A source – academic paper – book – even a single person who is claiming… Read more »
Well that was better. I didn’t have to quit reading on line one due to offensive sexist language. You did repeat the offensive phrase “rape culture” however, even after I informed you that it was offensive. Perhaps that sort of sensitivity is part of why you feel there’s a “lack of a common language”? You also used the word “patriarchy”, another offensive and sexist word, but I guess that was fine because in your sole opinion it’s not offensive at all. Guess men don’t have a right to an opinion about what offends them because they have feminists to tell… Read more »
First line with a link to wiki (LOL) and a feminist writer on a men’s site. I stopped reading.
Sick to death of the censorship here. If you want a feminist echo chamber the least you could do is be honest about it.
A week ago I was considering submitting a story about sexual abuse and it’s disastrous impact on three generations of one extended family. The writing is done. The trust is gone.
Gwallan, we’ll post it at Genderattic. Come see us there and we’ll work out the technical stuff
What do you mean? You submitted an article?
If you didn’t bother to submit who’s fault is it there’s no anti-feminist articles?
What censorship are you talking about gwallan? We do not allow direct attacks on authors or other commenters. Most comments get held for moderation, especially if they have trigger words. But as far as I can tell, almost all of yours go through.
I also had written an article relate to rape culture, slut walk etc and was wondering whether I should submit it or not, this article of Soraya made me so angry that I decided to submit it immediately. Keeping quiet was not an option. As they say “don’t get mad, get even.”
Rapses – I submitted an article on the Origins and History of “Rape Culture™” 2 weeks ago – Long before this OP appeared. Having waited and having been asked repeatedly by commenters here to submit articles dealing with the issue and having received only an automated response for the GMP submission engine – well I was not longer willing to stand by. https://goodmenproject.com/gender-sexuality/rape-culture-men-women-power/comment-page-1/#comment-91087 You can also just click on me Profile link and You can read the article and all related materials at a blog not so far from you! Anyone who I see Dismissing Male Rape or abusing Rape… Read more »
@MediaHound
Keep up the good work. I wish I could help you in this matter.
Rapses – you can just keep an eye on the Wiki page, and if you find any other pages that are less than accurate and neutral let us know.
I’m not interested in inciting riots and discord, but I will not stand by where such matters as a highly inaccurate, misleading and systemically biased source I can address is being used to manipulate and abuse people.
It’s that 100% man of principle thing, where there is no part time option.
Soraya, I have to say that I find your use of the terminology “disproportionate” when referring to living, breathing rape survivors as quite disgusting. So, more men and boys need to be raped for their traumas to matter seems to be the point. You don’t speak for all rape survivors and you certainly don’t speak for me as a rape survivor. You do not have my permission to minimize, downgrade or otherwise alienate ANY SURVIVORS. Let me make it clear since you seem not to understand. THERE IS NO PROPER PROPORTION FOR ANYONE TO GET RAPED. As rape is an… Read more »
Your preaching to the deaf!
Soraya only responds to people who say nice things about her! Anyone who contradicts her or points out error or even basic lack of humanity gets ignored. The only rational way to deal with such people is remove the sources of ignorance and error!
The cynic in me expects her to write another article deploring the “MRA’S” dismissing her article, deflecting the horrors of how many women suffer to shift focus to the “few” men who suffer and a pile of other antagonistic garbage that a few feminist bloggers seem to enjoy doing. I haven’t seen her reply to many comments here, only one I think, and it makes me wonder if she really cares or is just trying to hit-n-run slam women’s suffering in our face on a site about men. We get it, women suffer from rape, but stop ignoring so many… Read more »
Archy – you only have to look elsewhere and see how this OP was cobbled together with spinets from other blogs. There was little consideration of audience or content. And no consideration for comment either. That’s three C’s. If there is a response it will have to require some writing and thinking and not just Ctrl C and Ctrl V, and it would need to be three A’s. Attitude, Attribution and Audience. I doubt there will be a response and if there is it will probably as poorly considered as so much else! … and you thought you were Cynical?… Read more »
I have to say that I have become increasing “infuriated” by recent posts – and I have grown overly tired of the “Overwhelming” Trope. The Numbers (Quantitative Argument) over Quality (suffering) argument is at times just too abusive to bear. I have said that I have a long standing history of AIDS/HIV activism – and in relation to that back at the start in the 1980′s the same arguments got trotted out from governments and businesses. It reminded me of a film called “And The Band Played On” – reference the band on the Titanic who played as the ship… Read more »
Thank you for this Media Hound.
Don’t worry – Wikipedia is having to update it’s entries and will be obliged to until such time as they are accurate.
If people want references they can have them – but I will bloody well make sure they are accurate so they can’t be used to abuse even once more!
If people want to know about “Rape Culture™” then they can at least give credit to the people who coined the phrase – and “Prisoners Against Rape” the men of Lorton Prison who were the focus and reason for the “term” being created in the 1975 film “Rape Culture”.
It fascinates me to no end that people like Soraya are using the phrase “rape culture” to invalidate and minimize (and sometimes mock) the experiences of male rape survivors, yet the terminology was created specifically to help those behind bars.
This speaks volumes about those engaged in such. They’ve stolen the concept and completely erased the victims and survivors it was meant to help.
Ugh.
Double Ugh.
Triple Ugh.
Don’t worry James – the wiki page has been changed three time today to deal with the errors and now they have to go back to basics as it’s all internally contradictory. They have to either make it all gender neutral else produce a full and valid history of change or mark it all as disputed. Sort of makes all of The OP’s premise starting with a rhetorical question linked to a quackery reference – well mute! You should also look at me Gravatar web link! … and YouTube is paying the movies! Some are still scratching their heads as… Read more »
Good luck, I’m going to watch this wiki battle. From previous experience, I’m not optimistic.
Oh I am Optimistic! If the editors don’t act on the evidence and sources provided I will. If they then object – it will go all the way. I’m no expert in Wiki layout – but I am when it comes to getting the wording right! Have you seen the latest source? “Rape Culture – Blackwell Encyclopedia of Sociology Joyce Williams Extract – Rape culture is a concept of unknown origin and of uncertain definition; yet it has made its way into everyday vocabulary and is assumed to be commonly understood. The award-winning documentary film Rape Culture made by Margaret… Read more »
Tell us what to do so that we don’t annoy you – and give us the QUALITATIVE barrier that even one man has to exceed so that he is not a number but a Human Being!
this is so damn powerful MH. excellent point, excellent point
“Rape culture is a term which originated in women’s studies and feminist theory, ”
Shocker.
I don’t believe that older women having sex with younger men is “monstrous.” Actually, the idea of an older man initiating a young woman isn’t either, but I think we’re some distance away from that one– because of the notion that it’s always exploitative.
How is one form exploitative and the other isn’t?
I just don’t get it. Power dynamics? That would imply every male and every boy has power over a woman.
Rape Culture?
Somebody please give me a straight answer because I’m tearing my hair out here.
Maybe he has such a low opinion of women (ie misogyny) he must find it hard to believe that women can do harm or have any power at all?
You know women are so weak and pathetic they can’t have an affect on anything?
As soon as you internalize the view that women are equal to men the idea of women having no agency and not being able to do anything wrong seems sexist. What happens when society changes and the only people left who think women are weak are feminists?
I can’t give a straight answer though
Do you mean me by “he?” In a supportive society, this whole notion of age inappropriate sex would go away (past puberty, that is.) The Twin Oaks Commune has no problem with age differences, for example. I’m not particularly misogynist, but I am sex-positive. I was responding originally to the author’s idea that older woman – younger man sex is “monstrous.” I think victim-algebra has run its course. Support agency by everyone.
I dunno, I think theres alot to be said for giving adolescants a safe space to explore their sexuality before becoming “fair game”
Peter, I don’t think anyone should be “game.” It’s almost a better idea (this is cynical, I’ll admit) to expose younger women to men at least mature enough not to treat them like ____. But, sure, many younger people will prefer someone their own age– and that’s great. Adolescence is an artificial stage that doesn’t exist in all societies.
I meant no offense and hope you don’t take it that way. It was just a train of thought i had.
But the notion of age inappropriate sex hasn’t gone away, Henry. It illustrates an extreme double standard.
Older men who have relationships with young women are labeled perverts.
Younger men who have relationships with older women are seen as lucky and a real man.
“Older men who have relationships with young women are labeled perverts.”
I don’t see this interfering at all in the numbers of May-December romances and marriages. It’s still much more the “norm” than younger men-older women.
“Younger men who have relationships with older women are seen as lucky and a real man.”
But how are the older WOMEN perceived? You’re comparing apples with fruit bats.
As I read that he was saying that not every instance of a young person having sex with an older person is exploitative, but I agree that it was very hard to read.
The problem Peter is that we say not every young person having sex with an older person is exploitative only when applying it to boys and older women.
Wheras the other way around, older men with younger women, they’re treated like molesters and perverts.
What do you mean by “older” and “younger”?
How I felt reading this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCCXTVmSbgw Where to even start? Should I bother considering that this will be buried on page 5 of rebuttles. Oh well, point by point I guess. “Do you really doubt the idea of rape culture?” Yes. “On any given day you can, if you chose, participate in an entertaining and informative pop culture rape happening.” No, on any given day I can joke about rape and possibly even play video games about rape (I don’t). The fact that this is considered alot *less* acceptable than joking about murder, playing violent and murderous video games and… Read more »
Peter
Well argued and presented, but I believe little chance of any rational or structured response.
I have been doing a metta analysis of responses elsewhere when the author has written. If the response praises and agrees they get acknowledged, if they disagree they are ignored.
It’s quite deliberate and shows an inability to consider or address criticism. It shows a closed mind which by definition is a prison.
“Dispositions of the mind, like limbs of the body, acquire strength by exercise.”
THOMAS JEFFERSON
Those who don’t exercise end up enfeebled!
Well said.
To be honest, I wasn’t sure I expected one. I just had to add my voice.
Peter – I do believe in raising one’s voice when appropriate!
However, there are none so deaf as will not hear!
I do find it comical that after all the Schywyzergate and Twitter gate and the platitudes about how men have to accept women’s anger, it seems that we will soon have to read about just accepting contempt as well! C’est La Vie!
Half the reason I engage in comments is about improving my horrible writing skills.
That’s an awesome reason, truly leta. I became a much better writer when I started commenting a lot.
If some feminists write about rape culture in a way that minimizes the reality of male rape victimization by dishonest usage of stats, is that proof rape culture exists and the very people advocating against it are actually causing part of it?
I think that depends on their idea of rape culture. If they are only looking out for the well being of people raped by males in their rape culture theory then no they wouldn’t because their theory doesn’t consider the well being of those raped by females in the first place. Kinda like how some of them are with sexism. They start off by selectively redefining sexism as being male against female only and work on only male against female sexism. And presto-chango-magico all of a sudden female against male sexism doesn’t exist therefore its not a part of the… Read more »
My question: Why is rape the only crime where victim blaming is not allowed? Example: A couple of weeks ago I saw a story with accompanying video of a man telling a group of crazy looking guys to turn down their music, their response was to beat him up. The writer of the article said that while he wasn’t wrong to tell them to turn down their music he should’ve known better than to tell a group of guys with that certain demeanor to turn down their music. Hello victim blaming!!! So if a woman decides to take a jog… Read more »
“So if a woman decides to take a jog at midnight in the most dangerous part of town while wearing a nightie . . .? ”
Most women would never do that.
” If I leave my very expensive car in the bad part of town at night with the doors open and the keys in the ignition . . .”
Most people would never do that.
Why not? Because of victim blaming, or common sense?
Reasonable people without an agenda say common sense.
Problem is because strangerbased rape is relatively few in number compared to known-person rape, so telling women to be careful in public doesn’t really help. Also clothing has no link to rape, people get raped in all sorts of clothing, so no point telling them what to wear. The emphasis is on putting the blame on the attacker, not the victim. You’d have to tell them to not go near another person in order to avoid rape and that won’t work…If you want to say becareful at night in areas that aren’t well lit and there aren’t many people around… Read more »
“Is it the fault of any victim of violent crime? We live in a civilized society and we should be safe, but the blame is solely on the attacker.”
Absolutely correct, the blame is solely on the attacker. But by introducing terms like “rape culture” they are putting blame on every male. All men are responsible if a woman gets raped. We wish to eradicate rape, but feminists are turning it into a culture.
Rape is a crime. Rape literally means “having sexual intercourse without the consent other party by using violence to intoxication.” Person of either sex who indulges in such act is a criminal and deserves to be punished harshly. As for the rape culture, it exists only as much as other crime cultures like burglary culture, robbery culture, DUI culture, murder culture etc exist. Rape is a crime that suits the feminist ideological meme “men are oppressing women” Men can prevent rape only as much they can prevent auto-theft, robbery, forgery and murder. It is the job of law enforcement to… Read more »
This paragraph has me shaking my head “A lot of the debate over rape culture theory that I’ve read here hinges on its being filtered through the lens of individual stories instead of the other way round. As a result it ends up being misrepresented as an individual man-bad/perpetrator, woman-good/victim argument. The problem of rape is not a problem of individual men and women. It’s a culture that we live with—a systemization of harm that we are immersed in. Rape, regardless of whom it happens to, is horrible and violent and dehumanizing. Only men can stop rape. ” first sentence… Read more »
If you have a paranoid outlook you will find evidence to support your paranoia humans are great at finding patterns even in randomness. If your only proof of rape culture is to look at the world through the lens of rape culture theory and use that compromised view to prove rape culture is real is just a circular argument.
If you view the world with those old 3d glasses guess what? the whole world looks blue and red.
“If you view the world with those old 3d glasses guess what? the whole world looks blue and red.” Even more interesting is that the brain will also compensate and start to tell the wearer that the tinted colours are normal and it’s the normal view of the world. The brain displays great plasticity and an ability to normalise both perceptions and behaviours with adaptation to either remove or mitigate the effects. I find it fascinating That Rape Culture is such a big issue – it’s spoken of as all pervasive – It controls peoples lives and all that they… Read more »
found this blog htt p://morewomeninskepticism.wordpress.com/2011/07/21/13-stop-defending-rape/
…
Another feminist acting to maintain an unjust monopoly and to enable further discrimination and injustice against those deemed lesser or non victims. This author is patently unqualified to write anything about sexual abuse and should actually be ignored. Meanwhile in my country and yours feminist services funded by the taxpayer respond to desperate calls from victims with laughter and accusations of dishonesty. Feminist politicians disallow men and boys to be asked about abuse and force removal of questions regarding female perpetrators from government studies. These are the real feminists in action. Mongrels all. Intent on ensuring no male victim or… Read more »
We’ve read the stats and tweaked the numbers but bottom line – what is more important ending rape or debating who is hurt by it or experiences it more, who suffers more, more worthy of being believed – given sympathy, compassion or understanding, respect, dignity and compassion?
All the time spent saying one victim of more of victim or more often a victim takes time away from helping all victims and ending rape where ever possible.
I may quote you on that SweetSue.
Well, agreed but the problem is that nobody can agree on the exact source of the problem. It’s as if you had a cold and along comes someone to tell you there pet theory ( I use the term not in the scientific sense) as to why you have one and vaguely how to cure it. If that person is wrong, then the cure proffered will be of no help and at worst you may die or at the least suffer longer than necessary. Same goes for the issue of rape. Feminists offer up rape theory (again I use that… Read more »
“Do you really doubt the idea of rape culture?”
Rape culture is nore more or less real than [most any other crime] culture. The feminists who insist on discussing rape all day every day are the only ones who claim or imply that all men are responsible for rape in one way or another. It seems they are desperate to link all males to rape by any means necessary.
Great! Another “men are responsible for rape” article by a professional feminist s**t stirrer. This one takes a different approach though. She doesn’t say the usual “All men are rapist” . She claims “all men are condensending and compliciant in rape”. She drags out all the long debunked stats along with cherry picking a few tidbits from other stats . Then she claims “Only men can stop rape!” To this I ask HOW! As a father of 3 women . a brother to 2 sisters, DON”T YOU THINK I WOULD LIKE TO SEE RAPE ERADICATED FROM SOCEITY!!! I would just… Read more »
“Rape culture is a term which originated in women’s studies and feminist theory, describing a culture in which rape and sexual violence against women are COMMON” Um……er……what? What exactly is meant by “common”? The use of that term is so vague that it could be interpreted to mean just about anything the authors of the wikipedia article, or any feminist for that matter, want it to mean. “and in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media condone, normalize, excuse, or tolerate sexual violence against women” Interesting so why are there laws at all against rape? It makes no sense. Rape… Read more »
“That’s a circle I’d like to see squared.”
That won’t happen! The Square is but a tick box – so no chance of a circle, when it’s all tick!
By the way, the “only men can stop rape” meme has been debunked by me here:
http://jameslandrith.com/content/view/3847/79/
Anyone who truly cares about ending sexual violence will not engage in the erasure or minimization of ANY survivor for ANY reason. I’m really tired of seeing this type of garbage here. I thought things were changing?
“Anyone who truly cares about ending sexual violence will not engage in the erasure or minimization of ANY survivor for ANY reason. I’m really tired of seeing this type of garbage here. I thought things were changing?”
James – you have convinced even me!
Die Hard Equality, Meddling Rational Archivist – 30 years in the field! There is an issue here that goes beyond Equality and needs Affirmative Action!
PS James “On any given day you can, if you chose, participate in an entertaining and informative pop culture rape happening.” I choose NO! I don’t do pop culture – I deal in the reality of people who have been raped! How dare the OP dismiss so many people in that way! I hope the OP realises just how much it took to make me look at what is going on and say “No More”! I’m beyond Fury at what I have seen! Pop Culture? If she even spent ten minutes with a Rape Victim – who you hope will… Read more »
“Only men can stop rape.”
Uh, no Soraya. The woman who drugged, raped and blackmailed me into silence bloody well fucking can stop rape and I hold her accountable to doing so. She is, after all, a disgusting rapist.
The fact that you do not speaks volumes about your compassion toward rape survivors as living, breathing human beings vs. pawns to be used in a socio-political argument.
Good grief.
I wanted to post this on her article at the huffington post but they don’t allow for too much in writing:P ht tp://www.huffingtonpost.com/soraya-chemaly/definition-of-rape_b_1190255.html “I notice a lot of comments are often by men feeling quite ignored by anti-rape advocates, new cdc stats show in the last 12 months a fairly equal level of rape between the genders (if you include envelopment/forced to penetrate in the definition). The updated definition of rape still doesn’t include this which can lead to what many see as a bias in statistics, where many male victims aren’t seen as rape victims but merely “sexual assault”… Read more »