Nikki Brown calls for men to resist an easy acceptance of rape culture and to speak out in defense of their gender.
Don’t take offense. I know a lot of men stand up about rape. I know they speak up about sexual assault. They wear ribbons and high heels to show their support for anti-violence campaigns. I know many of you take issue with what rape culture tells me, your sister, your wife, your mother, your daughters, your friend what they should wear and how they should act. I know many of you support our right to sluthood (thank you very much).
I appreciate all of that. What I mean here is, why aren’t you speaking out against what this language, this rape culture, says about you? About men?
Men Can’t Help Themselves. Wear the wrong clothes or say the wrong thing, and Men believe they are Entitled to a woman’s sex.
Men Rape.
Rape culture says that we should expect men to be violent, misogynistic, and to not even notice, let alone care, what a woman wants, as long as she did something to make him think she wants to have sex. No, scratch that. As long as she did something to make him think about sex.
Why aren’t you angry? Why aren’t you upset? Why aren’t you telling your sister and your wife and your mother and your daughters and your friends that it doesn’t matter what they wear or how they act or if they flirted?
It doesn’t matter.
That there is nothing women can’t do or say or wear. That there’s no such thing as too much alcohol or took him home too soon. No excuse, no lie, no rationale that makes rape or attempted rape or assault or harassment OK. To make rape or attempted rape or assault or harassment Something Men Do.
When are you going to make clear, I mean really effing crystal, to us that THIS IS NOT HOW MEN BEHAVE.
This is not who you are, this is not how you think. This is not what we should prepare for. This is not what we should expect from you.
♦◊♦
Am I wrong here? Is this view and these expectations not a problem to you?
I don’t have that view. I don’t share those expectations. Instead, I expect: I expect men to appreciate me for who I am, from my cleavage to my wit. I expect men to never think they are entitled to my body, no matter what I wear or how I act or how soon I went home with them. To believe sex is a mutually-agreed upon act (enthusiastic consent is not a feminist statement, people!) that we participate in together, not something men take from me. I expect men to treat me as a member of an equal, not a lesser sex. I expect men to treat me as I treat them.
But here’s the thing: my expectations are in spite of the “that’s just how guys are” and the Facebook rape pages and the “can’t you women take a joke?” bullshit I hear every single day. They are in spite of every person who reads this post and thinks, “yeah, that’s nice and all Nikki, but in reality …” or “girl, you had better learn to play it safe.”
My expectations are in spite of rape culture.
These expectations are also of my own accord, my own faith in men—and because of the men in my life.
The sad thing? They are not because men speak up and tell me society and rape culture is wrong. They are not because, every time I hear “that’s how men are,” a good man speaks up and says, “no. It’s not.”
They are the ones I make for you in your silence.
♦◊♦
I understand that maybe the things rape culture says about men are subtle. I get what being vocal about sexual violence does to women, but we don’t talk enough about what rape culture says about men. Even in recent posts here on the Good Men Project—discussions revolved around education, support, and defense of women. They never once focused, even for a moment, on what all of these terrible stories say about men. About who men are, and who they are not. There is this underlying assumption that men just rape. There is this underlying acceptance about it.
And, yes, I fully comprehend the cultural differences here. But still.
Rape is not just about women. It’s about men, too. And we will never end this Rape Culture, we will never make revolutionary change, unless we start talking about men’s agency in it.
And that, gentlemen, starts with you. Your voice. Not only in support of SlutWalk, but in explaining to us that This Is Not What Men Do. This is not the behavior to expect from men. We need to hear you tell us that. You need to tell each other that. This is as important a conversation as any other we have about rape and sexual assault.
♦◊♦
Maybe you aren’t paying attention, or you think you’re the only one who is, or that we won’t hear you. Maybe you’ve never thought about it this way.
But it’s not enough. None of that is enough to excuse your silence. Your ignorance. Your acceptance of the excuses we all use and the lies we all tell to ignore rape and assault Every. Single. Day.
The underlying acceptance that Men Rape.
Consider this the open door. Consider this my invitation to the table and my request to hear your voice. Consider this your wake up call that rape culture isn’t talking only about women.
This is what rape culture and the excuses and lies we all tell ourselves about rape and sexual assault say about men.
Wake up. Speak up. I can’t hear you.
Yet.
—Photo terminallychll/Flickr
well arnt u very understanding
i very much understand wat ur saying
and believe me
wat rape culture says about women is small minded and disgusting
but wat they also say about men i find down right degrading defaming and insulting
im making an animation to protect the reputation of good men from rape culture
and the rites of woman from rape culture
I remember drinking with six friends. We all knew each other from high school and probably hung out for at least 7 years by then. Four were guys and there were two women. One woman was passed out and the other was so drunk she couldn’t stand. She started saying I got to pee, I got to pee. We were looking at each other to see who would take her. Nobody felt comfortable taking her. We eventually made her ex-boyfriend take her. We figured that he’d seen it before and if he hadn’t here’s his chance. Their reactions were interesting.… Read more »
I hope this thread can surface again. Nikki, you said a lot of good things but as you may not know, men are speaking up/out but if people aren’t listening …… The court system still see men as bad and women are victims. So much talk about MRA’s but if people to truly research them, they aren’t the so called “force” that some try to make them out to be. Men don’t have representation …. it’s about the votes and with women % voters, men don’t have a chance.
Western culture is less accepting of rape than any other felony, with premeditated murder for money being the only possible exception. Even that carries less of a stigma. Thus, once again, there is no such thing as rape culture.
Nikki, I am sorry that your article was misunderstood by several readers which is likely, as you mentioned in the comments, due to the choice of terminology. I wish we could get past whether or not “rape culture” is an appropriate term. I really don’t care. What I do care about is the really important point you make about men not being encouraged to defend themselves on the notion that all men rape. WE know that not all men rape. We know that only a small percent of men commit rape. Just like only a small percent of people commit… Read more »
Yes, exactly. I ask men to speak up when someone uses a rape victim’s clothing or behavior to excuse her rape – *because*, in my opinion anyway, none of things suddenly make Good Men capable of rape. We need to get rid of that dogma, and men need to help out in that – whether by telling the women in their lives or each other. Not because I am blaming them for rape and sexual assault, but because we live in a culture that says that.
“But I agree that men are MADE to feel shamed and complicit in an act committed by so few.”
That is only true in the feminist blogosphere. Out here in the real world, where the majority of women are not feminists, most men are made to feel no such thing. Rape and rape culture is not a constant topic of conversation of most women.
I don’t know the first thing about a feminist blogosphere. Was that actually hat directed at me? Because seriously, I am pretty sure I have not been to a single site labeled as such. I assure you that I live in the real world with real women and men. If you read my comment, you’ll see I said I have no idea about rape culture. I’ve just observed how there can be that mindset of “boys will be boys” on this topic and I think it does men a disservice. Perhaps that is more the case in feminist media? I… Read more »
Don’t let them dupe you. There is no such thing as rape culture. The feminist blogosphere is where misandristic concepts such as “rape culture” are argued for. Google it for yourself. You’ll only find that term argued for by feminists. Using this argument, they portray all men as being somehow complicit in rapes they have nothing to do with. This article does not defend men; it accuses us all of heinous crimes, including the majority of us who would never dream of such.
So what you are saying is that society and particularly men promote a culture of rape and rape shield laws, predator watchlists, longer sentences, lowered burden of proof have done nothing to mitigate this so called rape culture? Now thanks to feminists, males on campus who are accused of rape will be more likely to be convicted even if they are completely innocent. Well Nikki I’ll try to spell this out in small words for you since you clearly lack understanding of basic principles of logic. 1. Men don’t rape–rapists rape. To conclude that men rape and repeatedly utter the… Read more »
Jean,
You misread the article. Nikki’s point was EXACTLY the same as yours, that all men do NOT rape and that too many of us play into that false notion. She’s actually on YOUR side and was encouraging men to speak up and agree –which essentially is what you have done here. Although your last bit about frat parties and thugs is pretty scary and mean-spirited. I hope your anger was based out of your misinterpretation of Nikki’s point and that, in reality, you are kinder to the women in your life.
Thanks, Jess, and yes to your response. Jean, I never said men rape, I said the opposite. I also am not perpetuating rape culture, I want to stop it. It is the culture that says men rape and women are victims, it is how we talk *about* rape more than it is “men rape”. I am not asking men to go around telling other men not to rape, but I would ask you to not laugh at a rape joke, and to question when people blame the victim. Unfortunately, you’ve kind of made my point in the end. Simply because… Read more »
I totally see what you’re saying. My husband is a ‘left-wing’ anarchist, gay-friendly, very against macho, etc.. But he was FURIOUS that I got sexually attacked. Not at the attacker, but at me. “Why did you go to a bar on your own?”, “Why did you get in a car with a guy you didn’t know?”,”You did this to get back at me”,”You want to be a victim” (It was midnight on a Chicago night in February – freezing, I thought I was being safer than walking home and my toes felt like they were going to fall off, yes… Read more »
Yes. This right here. Thank you for sharing your story, and this is what I mean. I am so sorry for what happened to you, and I hope that, in being able to talk about it, you’ve moved from victim to survivor. I know too many women in both categories.
That said, I don’t believe your husband is a bad guy – but the things he said to you were not ok. I hope he’s seen the light.
I would ask for a divorce immediately. Spouses must serve and honour each other. He pointed a finger at you for the abuse.
There is no such thing as rape culture.
There is no such thing as rape culture.
It exists only as a slogan and a blaming tool.
Thanks to Toysoldier and his blog, I could read this great article.
Have fun : http://theonlinecitizen.com/2011/12/slutwalk-manufacturing-myths-about-%E2%80%98myths%E2%80%99/
I firmly believe rape is about sex not power. So if your ultimate goal is the eradication of all rape IMO you need to decrease the male desire for sex. Obviously this is easier said than done but a few suggestions would be: legalizing prositution or eradicate slutshaming culture so women aren’t demonized for having many sexual partners. Both of those would decrease the pool of sexually frustrated men that would potentially use criminal means to have sex with a woman (rape obviously) Or if you want get real futuristic a pill that temporarily dampens the male libido would work… Read more »
I don’t think that is correct. Rape IS a crime about power, where sex is used as a way to dominate and submit the victim. Rapist enjoy the fear they create in the victim. And one way you can see it is that usually when the woman reacts aggressively against the rapist most rapist will back up.
Fully agree, Kelly. Rape is fundamentally about control and violence, not about sex. Well, except for the point that when women act aggressively, the rapist backs off. Sometimes, sure, but not as a general rule. Tokyo Whale: despite that, I do think you have a point, yet I would very much like to make a distinction between sexual desire and the impulse to rape – two VERY different things. Yet, if we simply take your point and apply it to sexual desire ONLY, there’s much to be said for opening up discussion and sexual positivity to include both men and… Read more »
I don’t think any reasonable person couldn’t stand against rape or say that it isn’t part of an ongoing crime problem in society at large. However, if men are to identify and react appropriately to things that other men do to support rape culture, it would be best to define what rape culture is and how it manifests so that it can be identified. It could be the case that many men just don’t know what it is when they see it and clearing up what it is would help with that. Otherwise we could be just casting nets into… Read more »
There is no such thing as “rape culture.” It is feminist psychobabble. If there were to be a rape culture, there is a “culture” for every other criminal activity, such as “identity theft culture.” After reading many comments, it is very clear that feminists coined the term “rape culture” because it conveniently broad brush demonizes men by implying that they are all are somehow complicit in rape, and therefore responsible for rape even if we would no sooner rape someone than kill someone or harm a child. It’s a powerfully creative tactic because it enables them to at once paint… Read more »
I respectfully disagree. IMHO, “rape culture” is not easily dismissed – please read: http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.html. I also disagree that feminists “use” rape culture in an attempt to demonize men. All that said, Eric, you and I are actually on the same page. I think you’re right that the way in which rape is discussed by society at large is demonizing to men (but it’s in a greater sense, not just from “feminists”) – and that is actually my point here. I think the way rape is often talked about*does* say “well, men rape.” I DON’T agree AT ALL – and I… Read more »
Why no “child neglect culture?” Or “child abuse culture”? Or, “identify theft culture?”, or any other type of crime culture? Why is there only a rape culture and nothing else? Why is it only feminists who use the term “rape culture?” Is it just a coincidence? Is it just a coincidence that the one crime that has the potential to cast men in the worst possible light just happens to be the one “culture” that feminists claim pervades our society? The one “culture” that makes otherwise innocent men somehow complicity in rapes they would normally would never even dream of?… Read more »
I would argue that we shouldn’t confuse feminists and rape culture – rape culture is something we fight *against* – not something condoned or used to demonize men. I think there is some confusion over “rape culture” and how it is used. Feminists don’t *want* rape culture. However, the reason we say rape culture and not the others is because there is far, far less shaming of the victim in those crimes, and we are far more likely to discuss them as perpetrated by men or women, and the victims as male or female, than we are when we talk… Read more »
Nikki, I don’t think Eric will read your arguments clearly no matter what language you use. I’ll be honest, if you don’t read it closely, it’s tough to swallow: saying men rape, are complicit in rape, “it’s Something Men Do.” It’s aggressive, but it’s true and needs to be said. Unfortunately, some might miss or ignore the fact that you mention it perpetuates the myth that men are naturally inclined to rape or be violent (5th paragraph for readers who missed it) – and that’s something men should worry about. We need to wonder if we are admitting rape is… Read more »
“That said, I think rape is this weird, oddly alien concept for men, whether it’s because of how we’re socialized or some weird mass denial.” Men are not in denial about rape the thing is THEY ARE NOT RAPIST! Most men don’t rape people don’t relate to rape as a thing they do or have experienced and to be honest neither can women outside of their own imagination. The number of victims and perpetrators are a minority and we don’t have a culture that supports rape. Suggesting we do is a desperate attempt at sensational issue advocacy like “slut walk”.… Read more »
I guess a better way to say it is the idea of rape (or rape culture) as subjugating women is foreign to men, and as a young man who has heard many, many rape jokes I assure you many aren’t aware of the implications.
Alex, Agree with most of your points – and, yes, the rape jokes (when the victim is either male or female) are one way in which rape culture perpetuates. However – my point is that *rape culture* says men rape. The fact that we’re supposed to laugh at something that is abhorrent is indicative of a *culture* that says rape is ha ha not a big deal, and you know, just something that men do. Whoopsie, maybe she was drunk/dressed like a hooker so… My point is, that is Rape Culture talking – not women, not men, not any real… Read more »
Alex, “. . . as a young man who has heard many, many rape jokes. . .” What kind of people do you hang out with who tell “many,. many rape jokes?” My advice: choose a better circle of associates. I have hundred of friends and none of them tell no rape, stabbing, shooting, throat slitting, child molesting, hit and run, dismemberment, castration, or jokes about other forms of violent assault. Evidently some are not aware that rapists are not otherwise fine, upstanding citizens who do no other harm. They are the very same people who commit those other violent… Read more »
“However, the reason we say rape culture and not the others is because there is far, far less shaming of the victim in those crimes, and we are far more likely to discuss them as perpetrated by men or women, and the victims as male or female, than we are when we talk about rape.” With regards to child abuse you are right I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone say “he/she was asking for it” or the like. When it comes to car break-ins it isn’t all that uncommon to hear someone retort with “you should have locked your… Read more »
So “rape culture” is a term to define a culture where rape and sexual assault are accepted, sometimes prevalent. The key for me here is that “accepted” part – culture allows for rape with victim blaming, sexual objectification, and by trivializing these things (via rape jokes, etc). To men, that culture also sets us up to say “only this kind of rape happens, and we can then dismiss it because, well, women be slutty and men be all aggressive.” I clearly should have lead with that – my fault and naivete entirely. Going to your points, I agree that we… Read more »
” the reason we say rape culture and not the others is because there is far, far less shaming of the victim in those crimes. . .”
Nikki, there is no evidence to substantiate this claim. I have seen no evidence that all rape victims are “shamed” (however you define that) any more than victims of any other crime. Victims of any crime will and should be admonished as to how they can avoid becoming future victims, including what they should consider doing differently.
If you see no evidence, you’re not paying attention, plain and simple. Never heard “oh she shouldn’t have been there” or “oh, she shouldn’t have worn that”?
Actually talk to a rape or sexual assault survivor or two. They may be better at explaining it. I can guarantee you know several.
The same can be and IS said of every crime. There cannot be a rape culture unless there is also a culture for every other crime.
“[A] point I am trying to make: that we need to fight against anything in our society and culture that says ‘men rape.'”
Here’s the beginning and end of the fight: Most men don’t rape. Take that, rape culture.
Yes, that.
And also, you know, when someone makes a rape joke or says “well, how drunk was she or what was she wearing?” you can speak up and say “how does that matter? would either of those things suddenly make you capable of rape?”
I am going to agree with Eric on the use of the term rape culture. Even thought I am clearly against rape and I agree that more men should take a stand against rape, I think the term rape culture is misleading. As Eric said there are many other crimes who have double or triple the incidence of rape: assault, robbery and burglary for example are committed four or five times more than rape. Why don’t we live in an assault culture? The official numbers from CIA for rape in the USA are 27.5 per 100,000 habitants. Compare that to… Read more »
I see your point, and, again, I agree that I used a term most readers don’t quite understand. However, again, the point isn’t that “wow we have SO MUCH RAPE” the point is how the culture is accepting of rape when it occurs, how we talk about it, etc. I think THAT can be demonizing to men (which is, of course, my point), but using the term isn’t.
I don’t see evidence that our culture comes as accepting, which involves *approval*, of rape. Rape is against the law. Accusations of rapes have sometimes lead to lynchings. Men accused of rape get shunned. People sometimes differ about what a proper definition of rape is (for instance, I consider penile envelopment as a form of rape, for instance, but the F. B. I. doesn’t include penile envelopment as a form of rape), but I think you will find yourself extremely hard-pressed to find all that many substantial groups of people who think rape as something worthy to approve. Consequently, there… Read more »
Nikki, I understand your concern about the rape culture. I also understand your anger that it exists. But have you ever pondered the question as to why it exists in the first place? Where did it come from? I know that women have been victims of rape for as long as there have been men and women. However, i think a very important question to ask is why has it become more problematic over the last couple of decades or so? What is changing in our society? Unless we can figure how we are becoming this society you fear so… Read more »
<i.why has [rape] become more problematic over the last couple of decades or so? What is changing in our society? Unless we can figure how we are becoming this society you fear so much, we can’t do much about it, except react to the ongoing problem Two explanations have been offered by conservatives. One, is that rape is one of the rotten fruits of the sexual revolution; that de-sanctifying and cheapening sex has made it much easier, psychologically, for people to commit offenses that in a saner culture they’d hardly dare even think about. The other is, that the collapse… Read more »
The reporting and awareness of rape has increased. Rape itself has decreased.
@ natureartist
“i think a very important question to ask is why has it become more problematic over the last couple of decades or so?”
I don’t think it has. A lot of things that weren’t classified as rape like spousal rape are now recognized. A lot of things that weren’t recognized such as women raping men have just started to be recognized though there is still resistance to calling it rape. People report it more and it is more widely communicated. Some studies suggest that rape of women has actually decreased due to the proliferation of porn.
Why Are So Many Good Men Accepting of Rape Culture? Wrong question. The right question is, “Why do so many good men, men who are adamantly against rape, believe that the “rape culture” just doesn’t exist?” Ask a bunch of good men this question, and the likely consensus answer will be approximately this: Although rape is tragically real, there’s no such thing as “rape culture” outside certain criminal subcultures — social environments where good men have no influence whatsoever unless they go in shooting. Among normal guys, in normal social circles, rape is an abomination — there’s no cultural support… Read more »
And THIS comment is just one more that perpetuates rape culture. After the whole article and ALL the comments, this commenter refuses to see that a culture where women have to be wary and cautious (and sometimes paranoid and suffer from PTSD) is NOT HEALTHY FOR WOMEN OR MEN. But no, how much easier to DENY it and go on their merry privileged way. If men really, REALLY want to be “good men” by women’s definition, they need to LISTEN TO WOMEN and to what men like Hugo and others who “get it” or at least TRY to “get it”… Read more »
“If men really, REALLY want to be “good men” by women’s definition, they need to LISTEN TO WOMEN and to what men like Hugo and others who “get it” or at least TRY to “get it” have to say to them.” Not “women’s definition”, feminists’ definition. There is a vast difference. If it were “women’s” definition, you would hear the average woman using the term “rape culture”, but you don’t. You only hear feminists using it. This “rape culture” term was NOT defined by “women”, rather by the feminism, which the majority of women reject having any association with. The… Read more »
“If men really, REALLY want to be “good men” by women’s (actually feminists’) definition” But why would we want that? Men define what makes a good man; feminists do not. Men decide how to tackle men’s issues, and what ‘doing good” means; if feminists disapprove, tough. It’s not our job to make you happy, and it’s not our problem if you’re outraged. Your comments, Morgaine, are enablers of “manslaughter culture,” a term I just made up that’s every bit as valid as “rape culture.” Our society was founded on the deaths of men; it was built through the sacrifice and… Read more »
After the whole article and ALL the comments, this commenter refuses to see that a culture where women have to be wary and cautious (and sometimes paranoid and suffer from PTSD) is NOT HEALTHY FOR WOMEN OR MEN. Oh, I see perfectly. I simply think that your understanding of the situation is profoundly wrong. So let’s try this again…. Real danger exists in the real world. Whether we like the fact or not. The utopianist fantasy, a world where women DON’T “…have to be wary and cautious and sometimes paranoid….”, simply is not possible. The vulnerability of women is an… Read more »
The idea that there are multiple definitions of “rape culture” is suprising to me. Every definition of rape culture I’ve seen is a variation of “Culture that enables rape”. Of course what elments of our culture really enable rape are debatable. Though the idea that men can’t control themselves, sluts deserve rape, or that a man can be entitled to sex from a woman seem to obviously enable rape. Some people have run into these ideas, some haven’t, but I don’t know of any statistics measuring such “rape myths” off hand, though I’ve read that the rapists themselves believe them… Read more »
When activists need numbers, they stretch the definition. After 9-11, American Muslim leaders encouraged their flock to report “dirty looks” as hate crimes against Muslims. For example. Even with this, their numbers were pretty thin. You do the best you can and sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn’t. Stretching the definition of rape to include the thrashings of two drunken twenty-year-olds, neither of whom can remember what went on, will give you the numbers. But the point is to allow, as in “vigorously lead” people to visualize all of these encounters as brutal, violent attacks that leave women dead… Read more »
Sara. I haven’t said anything about the boyfriend/acquaintance rape for two reasons. One is that you don’t see any blaming the victim when there’s no reason to talk about where she was. IOW, not in a dicey area, no reason to talk about not being in a dicey area. So, blaming or not blaming is not relevant. The other reason is to make the point that commending prudence is okay in any circumstance but one. For some reason. The point about the intersection is to make the case that blame is not apportioned as a zero sum. If I’d been… Read more »
Wow, you are so dismissive and blithe about acquaintance rape… and you have no clue how it even goes down. People who commit domestic violence or rape do not announce themselves with t-shirts. The guy who tried to assault me did not behave in any way that suggested his motives. He was in fact, more accommodating… more nice.. more charming and gracious to put me into a state of ease and get me right where he wanted me. In order to get into someone’s trust they act as though they are trust worthy. It’s not about ‘being a butthead’. A… Read more »
Sara. The women who are raped going into a dicey area are, by definition, in a dicey area. And it does not blame the victim. It does, however, concord with the nasty, patriarchal law of physics which says if you’re not someplace, what’s happening in that someplace isn’t going to happen to you. My point is that commending prudence is perfectly okay in any imaginable circumstance except one. Years ago, I had to use an intersection which I thought of as particularly dangerous. So I was particularly attentive when using it. Sure enough, I spotted a semi coming up behind… Read more »
Ok, then it would be prudent for women to never have boyfriend or dates or husbands because women mostly get raped by boyfriends, dates, and husbands?
You’re an idiot and not all things are analogous.
Sara – I have to say I agree!
How do you define rape for those purposes? I only ask since some people have the regrettable habit of stretching it far beyond “sex after I said no.”
As for those situations? No, theres nothing anyone can reasonably do to avoid being attacked by someone you’re familiar with. But there are things we can all do to be safer in public places. Advising people how to do those things isn’t victim blaming, its common sense. I’m pretty sure at least a few women have been spared being raped because someone warned them not to go through neighbourhood X after dark.
I want to point out an example from my life: I recently signed up for a dating service online. I started chatting with a man there and after a couple days we agreed to go on a date. I asked where and when, etc. He suggested that I come over to his house for a cooked dinner. I said, I’m sorry, but I’d rather meet in a public place, for quite a while until I am comfortable taking it to that level. He then replied that he didn’t understand why I would object to a home cooked meal. I told… Read more »
Those are good points. If you trust and get attacked then you run the risk of not being believed or also being blamed. If you don’t trust, you are paranoid and promoting a” hating” ideal. If you are in bed with someone and the sex changes into something that you absolutely say No! to, and it doesn’t stop…what do you do then? You’ve consented and accusing your bedmate of rape at that point is going to make you very very unpopular. And it probably will not go to trial. I’d say that’s all true no matter the gender or gender… Read more »
Don’t you think it is reasonable for a man to say he wont date women who think he is a rapist?
Sara – you make some interesting and common sense points. You explain at length your attitudes and practices to personal security. May I point out that they are the exact same patterns of conduct I was trained in as a man some 30 years ago. There is the implication in you piece that Only Women have to be cautious – not go to a strangers home for a first meeting etc. It needs to be pointed out that they do apply equally to both sexes. You make comment about the risk of sexual activity and mention one in the ‘wrong… Read more »
Yeah.. I’m sorry but talking about someone’s bum size is not the same as joking about raping them in it. Not equal. Not at all. You’re trying to force a square peg in a round hole with this lame argument that men experience rape at the same level as women, in sheer numbers. It’s just not true. And by changing the topic at hand you dismiss what I was talking about… a huge, endemic problem of women being sexually assaulted in mass numbers. And you are extremely vague… you state women use ‘female privilege’ to sexually assault a man but… Read more »
Sara: You say it doesn’t happen as often. It has happened to me. CDC says it happen almost as often. Well, actually they say that 40% of the perpetrators of “rape” and of “making someone penetrate them” are women. So, why should I believe you? Can you explain to me what CDC got wrong? Or are you just arguing your belief and trying to pass that off as fact?
Sometimes I think that rape and assault is a concept (and reality) that is so painful to think about (and accept that “one of us” could do it) that we just get into a place of denial. Women deny that it can happen to men? I don’t know. It’s just all so horribly painful, it’s a wonder any of us can talk about it at all.
Sara I wrote in good faith but I am not sure you read that way – or if it was my post you were reading. I did mention women talking about a male bum – did you miss the part when I said “I have had to intervene when they were discussing who was going to approach him – make contact – make sure he was drunk – get him home – and then all three together were to use him sexually without consent.” It was not a discussion of his Bum it was premeditated sexual assault. Maybe If I… Read more »
Good call, insisting on meeting him in a public place was exactly the right thing to do. If he couldn’t understand that, his loss.
@MediaHound: “I would like you to consider the female gender privilege that men do not treat women violently.”
Should be more accurately stated as: “… that men are considerably less likely to treat women violently”
I think any victim of male on female DV would disagree with the first one, but I take your meaning.
Peter – if you ask Joe Public he will say men Don’t Hit Women. He does not deal in statistics and he is not worried about nuances. I sees it straight and simple. It’s a cultural artifact in so many societies that men are inculcated in from birth. Words get used in different way at different times. Sara writes from the first person making it about her perceptions – It’s a powerful way to communicate, and it also “implies” everyone female feels the same. It’s rhetorical device that is so often used. Present ideas from the personal and allow readers… Read more »
Sara: I started chatting with a man….He suggested that I come over to his house….I said, I’m sorry, but I’d rather meet in a public place, for quite a while…he didn’t understand why I would object to a home cooked meal. I told him, no, it’s not that, it’s that I don’t feel comfortable being in a man’s house who I haven’t known for long or am meeting for the first time. He then proceeded to tell me I was being paranoid, that he wasn’t a rapist or murderer and why am I holding him responsible for other bad men.… Read more »
Make up a nonsense culture and when somebody calls it nonsense, blame those who point out there’s nothiing to it. Handy, but nonsensical. We can commend prudence in most situations. Don’t swim where the “shark” sign is freshly painted. Don’t give that nice lady from Nigeria your bank account number. Don’t start your charcoal grill with a quart of gasoline. Don’t drive drunk. All okay. Don’t go into a dicey area unaccompanied. RAPE APOLOGIST!!! I can’t imagine how tied up in knots you have to be to be unaware of how absolutely stupid that looks like from the outside. The… Read more »
Most women are not raped ‘going into a dicey area’. Most are raped by people they know, are friends with, dating, or married to. So telling someone to avoid dicey areas doesn’t actually prevent rape… and it is blaming the victim.
I know at least one person who was raped by going into a dicey area, not going there would definitely have prevented what happened to her. It wasn’t her fault by any means (any more than it was my fault for getting my face mashed in while walking through a similar area), and it equally doesn’t mean that anyone giving advice on how to stay safe is blaming anyone. Rape (along with other crimes) can happen even if you do follow all the advice, its just less likely to.
Asking 99.99% of the members of a group to stand in condemnation of what 0.001% of that group does is bigotry, pure and simple.
What do we say when a consverative says “muslims need to apologize for 9/11” or “muslims need to be vigillant in standing up against terrorism
Isn’t that islamophobia? It’s an exact analogy. Feminists are very good at being blinded at their hatred.
I would argue it’s not “Muslims need to apologize for 9/11” but that Muslims should be aware of the society they’re in (as Mr. Houlihan points out with what I am assuming is sarcasm) and they should raise awareness about their religion and culture so that other people change their minds. I am not asking men to apologize for rape – heavens to betsy why would I do that – but to stand in condemnation of it? To make clear that men do not behave that way, you know, ever – no matter what you wear or how you act?… Read more »
“I am not asking men to apologize for rape – heavens to betsy why would I do that – but to stand in condemnation of it? ”
Do you believe that rapists rape because the think the general male public approves? Who exactly does NOT condemn rape? Shouldn’t all major crimes be condemned or just male on female rape?
A quick anecdote Eric from my life. I was on the bus and there were two college aged boys behind me. Laughing, talking about school. The conversation moved into territory I found disturbing. 1) Dude, one of the girls from X sorority said So-n-so raped her. 2) What? Fuck that, He doesn’t have to rape anybody 1) Yeah, bitch. So, there are number of problems inherent in that short conversation. It could have gone like this- 1) Dude, one of the girls from X sorority said So-n-so raped her. 2) What? Fuck that. Are they investigating?? Kappa Greek Letter doesn’t… Read more »
“But what they said was a great example of what your much despised feminists would call the rape culture.” Julie, you’re dead wrong. I despise no one. As I have written about, I despise the discrimination and prejudice, which is commonplace within the feminist movement. OK, now that that’s off my chest. Kid #2 did express his disapproval but didn’t carry it through. However, I believe that most men would react differently to someone telling them that such and such was raped by someone they knew. I have never been in that situation or known anyone that was, but I… Read more »
Apologies for putting words in your mouth, Eric 😉 Thanks for responding.
I think we should probably define a culture of violence and a bystander culture where people are apt to sit back, not get in the way, and allow small instances of things to go unheeded. Violence in all regards is offensive to me, Eric.
I’m a fan of men, Eric. Really dig them.
Julie, you didn’t put words in my mouth. I just think you were wrong. No worries.
I can see how you’d take that from that conversation, and why you’d prefer the second one, but I suspect that their choice of words has more to do with the fact that an accusation had been made against one of their group than that they were denying the existence of rape, or condoning it. As Eric pointed out, if the rape accuser had been a friend or a relative and the accused had been an outsider, you probably would have heard something more like your second version. To put it the other way: What if it was a false… Read more »
The thing in that conversation that struck me as the most troubling was “He doesn’t have to rape anybody” and what that implies.
Yep, that was sarcasm, comment seems to have disappeared though. Maybe I didn’t make that obvious enough 🙁
The legal definition of rape was created by men. Since men have been the vast number of legislators since the beginning of Western civilization, and there have been rape laws on the books forever, the idea that rape is a serious crime and should be severally punished is almost completely the doing of men. And who has been responsible for apprehending, adjudicating, and punishing rapists? There are more women involved now, but for most of history that responsibility has fallen on men. After the Soviet Army invaded Germany in 1945, there were literally millions of rapes committed against German women.… Read more »
Exactly. To an objective and reasonable person this is common sense.
In fairness, rape doesn’t tend to happen on the dance floor. Doesn’t mean its not happening.
Exactly. Men don’t rape. I’m not for a moment saying that they do. However, in my life, I’ve often noticed that we rarely touch on how discussions around rape treat men. For example: We tell women that they cannot wear that, or behave like this, or go there – or they might get raped. In that dialogue, what we don’t say is “because your behavior or your outfit may cause a dude to try and rape you.” People rarely speak up and say “now, wait a minute. Clothing or behavior aren’t going to cause a man to rape someone. Men… Read more »
Nikki – the role and rate of perpetrator by sex is being talked about – in fact It is covered in the recent CDC report “National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey 2010”. I would advise having a look at the details on first how rape and sexual violence have been defined – page 17 – and then the estimates figures for rape/sexual violence in the last 12 months by sex of perpetrator – pages 18 and 19. The two do need to be considered side by side as the definitions are sex related and not equal. The report gives… Read more »
I’ll just add that on page 24 in the CDC report it is stated that 79.2% of the men who had “been made to penetrate someone else” reported a female perpetrator. So the hypothesis that this is caused by a “Rampant outbreak of rape on an industrial scale by men who oblige men to penetrate them” is demonstrably false. It’s a rampant outbreak of women who rape men. This site has an article about that survey where the author either did not see this result or omitted them. Perhaps we need a new definition of rape culture, how about: It’s… Read more »
Tamen – I have been looking at the news feeds on google using “National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey 2010″ to do the search. Literally All news reports feature rape of women in the headline. They even quote figures that are not from the CDC Report. Only one so far has mentioned men or children for that matter. The reports does address child sexual abuse and rape. One would expect that the media coverage at PSU may have promoted some attention on that subject – but it does not. It just shows the levels of laxness and laziness in… Read more »
Mediahound, sexual violence towards children is often not reported largely in mass media to protect the identities of the children. When sexual violence towards children is in the media, it is often focused on the perpetrator’s crimes – so it should, and not the children involved. Women probably dominate the headlines because women are the main victims of violent sexual crime – if you don’t take into account prison data. 98% of rape and sexual assault is men against women, 1.5% is men against men, and .5% is women against men. You’re saying there is no cultural reason why this… Read more »
Catherine – My comments are in the context of the recently released CDC report. I would advise that you look at the findings – some have been pointed out above. The CDC report finds that in a 12 month window the number of men and women subjected to Sexual Violence is basically equal. It is much harder to comment on a 12 months figure for children as the report could not be compiled from data obtained from children, due to ethics. Again I would advise most strongly reading the report itself – pages 17 to 18 are all that is… Read more »
Yes, it is like the CDC needn’t have bothered to classify a large category of male rape victims and not rape victims.
I think you’re forgetting the report title. It’s data concerns intimate partners e.g. girlfriend, husband. It is not data for ALL sexual assaults, rapes or violence. Correct?
Grey – The reports demographic of people interviewed is 18 plus for legal reasons. They could not interview minors over the phone. It also provides Data For Life Time Prevalence of experience from birth – and does deal with “Child Sexual Abuse” – which is why the findings state for example “More than one-quarter of male victims of completed rape (27.8%) were first raped when they were 10 years old or younger (data not shown).” I’m sure you will agree that at ten years of age or less The title of the study does nor agree with it’s own findings.… Read more »
Rapists probably are going to rape people no matter what. Even in cultures where women only leave the house wearing a tent rape still occurs. But that doesn’t mean that you need to put yourself in the firing line. Giving people information about how to keep safe isn’t oppressive, its common sense. Drinking oneself into a stupor and wandering through a dangerous neighbourhood leaves one vulnerable to all kinds of crime. It doesn’t mean that the victims of such crime deserved it by behaving in that manner, but its still sensible to warn people to drink in moderation and not… Read more »
No offence Justin, but the estimation is that one in 20 men has committed a rape or sexual assault. 1 in 6 college aged men will admit to rape, as long as it’s not called rape in anonymous surveys. Chances are, you have met a rapist.
I haven’t said that I never met a rapist. To the contrary, I am absolutely sure that I have.
Catherine I have been reading about the report you alluded to and it is apparently misleading. A full spectrum age related report which investigates such matters from 18 to death, thereby looking at the whole male population, produces a far lower incidence than 1 in 6 which is reported by men in college. There are most serious questions about how studies are designed and if one that uses as small demographic such as male college students should be used to build a national figure representing all males in the population. It’s that old issue of Lies, Damed Lies and Statistics… Read more »
Much of the stuff here is whack. By the way, I love Naomi Wolfe and Katie Roiphe because they don’t reify female victimhood. Like Germane Greer, they’re not female eunuchs. I actually think we should have a culture where flirtation is acceptable. So all the crap about PTSD, “looks”, etc. is just that. People (both sexes) are going to flirt anyway, and it’s a good thing. I like what the guy said on another thread. Men should behave honorably. Some of our behavior is biological (thank God for that, too.) The creation of feminist men tends to create unnatural people… Read more »
Henry I do have to agree about those people, some feminists of different stripes, who don’t and won’t buy into the Reification fallacy.
How that links to Jargon which has been concretised into absolute from abstraction is a matter that so many will not discuss or address.
There seems to be a thriving on the fluidity of words and meanings which is so unhelpful.
Has anyone ever wondered why non-feminists (the vast majority of women) aren’t obsessed with using the term “rape culture” as feminists are? Why would feminists be so focused on using this term religiously, but non-feminists NEVER use it? After reading the comments, I have cracked the “rape culture” code. Here is how it works: 1) What is the worst thing (except a child molester) you can call a man? Correct – a rapist. 2) If a woman has been raped, she is clearly a victim who should be sympathized with, and her attacker considered the scum of the earth. Which… Read more »
In fairness, not all feminists define it in those terms, but I do maintain that the catchphrase is irrevocably ruined by those who do (and there appear to be alot of them).
That there is no consistent definition is part of the power of “rape culture.” Having no fixed definition makes it a Swiss Army Knife type of catchphrase/tool with which to slap men however it seems most effective at the moment, in order to make the average non-rapist man somehow responsible for all the rapes that occur.
It sure feels that way from our point of view, but I think individual feminists who support the concept are mostly true to their own (varied) definitions. I haven’t seen much to suggest that anyone twists it to suit the situation.
That said, any theory that elastic begins to loose its value as a tool for social change, expecially when the extremists take over.
However, that allows a feminist to define rape culture however she chooses. Imagine being able to create your own definition for something as horrific as what causes rape.
this article explains what feminists often call ‘rape culture’, something that some of you have been disputing. It’s an interesting article and very much worth a read. http://oforganon.tumblr.com/post/11150747104/to-all-those-men-who-dont-think-the-rape-jokes-are-a
Thanks, Catherine. I was looking for that. Any “good man” who reads that will perhaps take another look at the concept of Rape Culture and how he may be (unwittingly and/or unwillingly) contributing to it.
Any Good Man? Oh that is quite a challenge – the gauntlet has been thrown down by a Pendragon! How Old School can you get? P^) Well – some of us have been looking quite closely at the term Rape Culture – it’s meanings and the Implications. Perhaps you missed the dialogue? https://goodmenproject.com/gender-sexuality/why-are-so-many-good-men-accepting-of-rape-culture/comment-page-1/#comment-77318 I would welcome your views on the use of language, its meanings and how people apprehend it – and consideration of what Good Men and even Women are discussing! P^) You will have to forgive me if this is seen as unwittingly presumptuous on my part –… Read more »
It explains what some feminists call rape culture. I have no problem with calling people out for making rape jokes in a public place, or misandric jokes, or racist jokes, or homophobic jokes or transphobic jokes or… But that isn’t the only way rape culture is defined, many feminists define it as something all men are a part of and that all women are not only exempt, but are all victims, regardless whether they’ve been raped or not. That and definitions of rape that mean that only women can be raped, and identical behaviour performed on a man isn’t rape,… Read more »
I’m concerned that you are lumping rape into one big stereotype. Rape can be someone just saying no. It isn’t always brutal. Rape can be when someone is too intoxicated to consent. The fact that most rapes and sexual assaults are done by partners or people known to the survivors, suggests that the brutal images that classifies so much of our discussions about rape isn’t always the way it goes. The experiences may not be the same, but they are all rape.
“I’m concerned that you are lumping rape into one big stereotype.”
Many agree with you. So many have the stereotype of Female Victim and Male Perpetrator.
That stereotype also runs riot across the meme of “Rape Culture” – and yet because it seems No One can provide a Definition Of Rape Culture the stereotype can’t be addressed.
I keep looking for the use of “Rape Culture” in Statutory Documents, Government Reports, Official Documents, but it seems to not be there.
Why?
Catherine I have been reading the material you suggested. You stated “this article explains what feminists often call ‘rape culture’,” There is one large problem. It talks about the effects of “Rape Culture” but actual does not provide an explanation of what it is. It does not explain what it is, it reports how it is supposed to effect women and how men should be involved in it. There is nothing to judge the idea of “rape culture” against – only a narrative that says how it effects people and or how people should behave in relation to those effects.… Read more »
Please forgive the second post in a row on this, but I neglected to make one other point.
Referring to the current problem as one of “Rape Culture” is especially harmful because it both obfuscates the actual data and, in fact, entirely mischaracterizes the actual nature of the problem.
Reading through the details of the CDC study published this week, and the comments on it by women in a number of venues, has brought me to a working hypothesis, on which I would appreciate thoughts and comments. 1. Women are so constantly bombarded by looks, comments, gropes, attempts, and pressure from men of a sexual nature that many women are in a more-or-less permanent state of PTSD from that. 2. Under those circumstances it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to expect that the suffering human being will not be hypervigilant and untrusting of the class of people who… Read more »
I’ve heard variations on this argument before, and it doesn’t stand up to even the most cursory scrutiny. To argue that the average woman is somehow in a constant PTSD state is preposterous for several reasons. First, any sort of psychological condition inherently only exists in reference to the “normal” psychological state. There is already something problematic by suggesting that the *majority* of the population (i.e. all women) are in a constantly abnormal state. The second consideration is the total lack of reference with relation to men. I have male friends who have confided in me that they would happily… Read more »
Um Mike… are you seriously suggesting that someone would rather swap the pressure to ‘make the first move’ in a relationship for a constant state of fear of sexual violence that stems from being viewed as a sex object. Seriously, EVERY woman I have ever talked to feels afraid when she walks the streets alone. Every woman is triggered by a sound, or a rustle of a bush to think ‘I might get raped’. To say that this is comparable to a pressure to make the first move (which don’t get me wrong, I think should definitely be equalised between… Read more »
“Seriously, EVERY woman I have ever talked to feels afraid when she walks the streets alone. Every woman is triggered by a sound, or a rustle of a bush to think ‘I might get raped’. ” WOW – I know so many women who are the total opposite. Every Woman is a very large group. I have a friend who lives happily alone in a cabin surrounded by trees, bushes and at night she sits and listens as they rustle – and she states that she feels 100% safe. She has been asked about risks such as burglary and assault… Read more »
Ok MediaHound, maybe I over stated with EVERY woman. Obviously there would be women in the minority who don’t feel threatened, and lucky for them. God, do I wish that more women could feel safe walking the street at night. But honestly, i’m telling you that most women do not feel safe walking alone at night, do not feel comfortable sitting alone in a park. It’s not the idea of rape culture that terrorises women into believing that they could be raped 24/7 it is BECAUSE of rape culture. A culture that tells women it is their own fault if… Read more »
Catherine – if rape culture is the issue and not the cause, why is it indicated that Women’s fear of sexual violence and crime in general has increased over the last 4 decades? I agree that rape culture harms both sexes, but there is the issues of cause and effect – chicken and egg. You say “If we didn’t have rape culture, women wouldn’t feel scared walking alone at night,” Which came first – fear or rape culture? I have seen many patterns emerge – and seen them ascribed to any causes. Closer investigation has unearthed unexpected results. I have… Read more »
Could I just pick up on this too:
“Ok MediaHound, maybe I over stated with EVERY woman. Obviously there would be women in the minority who don’t feel threatened, and lucky for them”
Why is it obvious that it’s only a “Minority” or women. From your experience it may be a minority – but if you look at the stats on fear of crime it is not supported.
A Majority of people do not expect to be subject to any crime.
Have you ever worried that a sexual partner might press charges? I have.
Being raped isn’t the same as being forced to make the first move and more than being falsely accused of rape is equivalent to enjoying a privileged status as posessor of a sought-after quality.
I suspect that if you were forced to trade places with Mike for a day you might both learn a thing or two about privilege and opression.
Mike first, the normal group in regard to JustAMan’s example is men.
Second, a culture that expect emn to be the initiatros and aggressers who “win” at sex (“score” “conquest” etc) and expects women to be passive objects to be played and “won” (“give it up” “trophy” “easy” etc) is… um… rape culture. Do away with rape culture so that people are on equal footing, treating each other with honesty and respect, then men won’t have to worry about how to conquer women and women won’t have to worry about how to not be conquered.
spellcheck fail. sorry about that.
You see thats all fine. I can get behind that. It recognises sexism against women and the damage it can do while still admitting men are victims of this aswell. The trouble creeps in when “rape culture theory” becomes about putting the blame on men and denying their victimhood. Take this sentence for instance: “[Rape] is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear.” -Susan Brownmiller So not only is rape something that never happens to men, its something all men do (not women) its a… Read more »
Lela, your argument is literally a tautology. You want us to accept, ON YOUR WORD ALONE, which came first. I reject this. I do not know that contemporary dating culture is not the result of female choice-privilege. Our society grants women alone the ability to consent, or reject, sexual advances. This is obvious in both our criminal justice system (how often do you see “If HE’s drunk, HE can’t consent” on a PSA?), and in popular culture (the whole point of the movie “Disclosure” is that everyone would believe Demi Moore was harassed by Michael Douglas, but no one would… Read more »
Mike, women are treated to so much harassment every day that I have no trouble at all believing that many women may suffer from the chronic traumatic abuse. Getting rearended in traffic had me flinching at red lights for almost a year. If it happened even 5% of the time, I’d be a mess. That women are subjected to that kind of constant abuse should be abnormal. It’s certainly not ideal. Civilization is not exactly natural. We create certain abnormal conditions that we tolerate more or less well. Somehow, to my continual astonishment, whole cultures have managed to carry on… Read more »
Sir “I want a healthier society, where we don’t stunt and destroy our precious human potential. The quoted 8% of men (the rapists) don’t do all of this damage. So much of it comes from the unknown additional percentage of men who leer and threaten, and bank on the strength of the atrocities of the 8% to keep women afraid. That’s where the potential for change exists.” I note that there has been care in not lumping what would appear to be 92% into a single amorphous group noun, but “the unknown additional percentage of men” serves just the same… Read more »
Nothing I said suggests that I believe all men either rape or harass women. That’s your read, MediaHound.
Justine – you have nor addressed the points “Triggered” by your statement: “women are treated to so much harassment every day that I have no trouble at all believing that many women may suffer from the chronic traumatic abuse.” As I said: “You talk “Blithely” of Trauma and yet are happy to present ideas that can be used to recreate that Trauma in another group.” I await your response – and you seem to have mistaken my critique of your use of “amorphous group noun” to imply most improperly, neh Impertinently that I had implied you held views that were… Read more »
You are making a generalization that is simply not accurate. It is a feminist dramatization. My wife has never suffered harrassement. I have four sisters, all in their 40s now. They’ve lived in NY, Chicago, DC, Seattle, Hawaii, and LA.
None of them have had these experiences “every day” as you claim.
That was meant for Justin, by the way.
Clarence, this site doesn’t permit ad hominem attacks. You’re free to present points and opinions, or to disagree with the OP or a comment. You’re not free to name-call. Please read our posting guidelines.
Eric M., saying that something happens to women every day doesn’t mean the same thing as it happens to “all women” or to your relatives in particular. That’s great news that they’ve never experienced what I assure you is very common street harassment.
If you didn’t mean all women, you should have said, instead of “women”, “some women”, “most” women, “a few” women or something other than the “women” which implies ALL women.
Inaccurate generalization: “. . .women are treated to so much harassment every day . . ”
Accurate statement: “Every day there are some women who are harrassed. . .”
Justin, my brother, YOU are the kind of man that gives me hope.
Thank you for your compassionate (and succinct, which seems to be more of a challenge than one might expect) post.
Please don’t stop speaking up. Women need to know that men like you are out there! <3
Justin, I never suggested that women were not harassed. I did suggest that women are blind to their own privilege. Thanks for putting words in my mouth and side-stepping my point. XOXO
Great post.
My quibble is that the 8% figure you quote is not the total number of men who commit rape, it is the number who willingly admitted it on an anonymous survey. Chances are good that figure is higher and several other studies have suggested higher numbers.
But for the ease of discussion maybe we should think of it as 1 out of 10 men admit they committed rape. That’s a nice round number and it is easy for people to wrap their heads around.
Sorry to be a spoil sport – but if figures are to be quoted it is best of they are not mythical and rounded up for convenience. So many have been attacked and criticized for what some perceive as misuse of figures – and yet you advocate misuse and even abuse so openly? If a male did that he would be spanked ever so publicly for supposed Privilege. Consider if you should be equally spanked – or would that be seen as Patriarchal Abuse because a male has called it out? I have more and more sympathy with Toms concerns… Read more »
Wow. Telling people in a serious discussion that they should be “spanked” may not be Patriarchial Abuse but it is certainly patronizing, dismissive and completely unnecessary. My post was responding directly to JustAMan’s very good post above. If you read the source that JustAMan cited, a paper by David Lisak from 2002, you will see that it lists results from a number of studies in which men admitted in an anonymous survey that they had committed rape/sexual assault. The various percents from those studies ranged from 5% up to 14.9%. 10% is rounded up from the average of 9.95% and… Read more »
Lela – as I pointed out, changing figures and therefore supposed facts is unacceptable conduct – especial when as you put it “a serious discussion” is involved. It seems that you did not like the word Spank – it was used very deliberately to communicate the experience of others who have been attacked and criticized for supposedly altering and misrepresenting figures as part of “a serious discussion”. “a serious discussion” is regarded as adult – making things simpler for convenience is rearguard as child like – hence the use of Spank was again quite appropriate. Would you rather I had… Read more »
MediaHound – I find your behavior towards me unacceptable and following this post I will not be engaging with you further on this matter. Rounding a number up from 9.95 to 10 is not “altering and misrepresenting a figure.” “making things simpler for convenience is rearguard as child like” No. It’s not. However, patronizing, talking down to and belittling someone in a debate is unproductive behavior. Threatening physical violence in a debate is simply unacceptable behavior. “Would you rather I had used the term Physically Assault you?” I would prefer you not threaten me at all. In fact, you should… Read more »
Oh I see You get called out on misusing figures – attribute views – and when they are corrected get Flounctastic and terminate! Ah well so much for dialogue! As I often say Paraphrasing Capt Jean-Luc Picard after he had been assimilated into Locutus of Borg “Projection is Futile”! I would welcome you clarifying explicitly your Gross Insinuation that I have Threatened with Violence? That is grossly abusive and unworthy of you! You have deliberately misquoted what was said and de-contextualized it for effect – a low debating tactic which most are taught to avoid whilst on the high school… Read more »
Oh and a PS
I note that you avoided addressing the CDC findings and the concerns as to gender bias that it displays.
You may seek to shame but avoiding the subject is shameful!
lela, dftt.
I have been looking at this post since it was first posted. I have read it many times and I have to say I am appalled. In have worked through it’s logic and reasoning but it comes back to a basic fallacy that is at the start. It is stated: “1. Women are so constantly bombarded by looks, comments, gropes, attempts, and pressure from men of a sexual nature that many women are in a more-or-less permanent state of PTSD from that.” First the use of “So Constantly” is highly subjective. I do not and have not seen this Constant… Read more »
… I’m sorry, but you cannot seriously blame men for the misconception that “someone who rapes is a man.” (You didn’t say that, but I think it is in line with what you said). Would most men love to be de-creepified? Surely. One night, I–a guy–whistled after a cat that ran under my car in a parking lot while I was with my boyfriend (I’m gay). A girl who happened to be walking in our direction froze stock-still and turned around to walk in totally the opposite direction, thinking I whistled at her. But am I going to tell her… Read more »
I’m not blaming anyone in this post, really. What I’m saying is that men can speak up about rape, and about how men actually behave. I think women need to hear from men more often that it actually doesn’t matter what they wear or do, men aren’t going to suddenly rape them because they’ve done the wrong thing. Men need to talk to other men about this too – not that “oh, hey, we don’t rape, right?” but more in response to how we normally discuss rape, and to refocus on men vs. rapists. Also talking more about rape being… Read more »