Joanna Schroeder offers an open letter to Joe Peacock, challenging his claims that he is an ally of female gamers, and rising to the defense of the Frag Dolls.
Dear Joe Peacock,
Let’s get this out of the way: I’m not a geek. I don’t play video games aside from Super Mario Bros, where I’m always the little yellow mushroom guy (because he wears a diaper for no apparent reason and my kids never let me be Mario). My favorite video game character is Yoshi. I don’t have an avatar. I didn’t know what cosplay meant until I looked it up while working on this article.
Let’s also get this out of the way: I’m a pretty girl. I know I’m not supposed to say that out loud, but it’s true and it has almost nothing to do with me. Beyond washing my face and occasionally applying eyeliner, I don’t do much to deserve the privileges that being pretty has afforded me. And being attractive in the ways that American society deems acceptable is, without a doubt, one of the most powerful privileges one can carry. I walked into court once for a traffic ticket and when I smiled at the judge, he smiled warmly back. All charges were dismissed.
Why does it matter than I’m pretty and that I’m not a geek? Because I want you to know the ways in which you proved yourself a hypocrite in your article Booth Babes Need Not Apply, which appeared on CNN.com, and I want to be sure that you don’t call me a “6 of 9” in response. I’m just a regular 7 or 8, and if I can get that on the table up front maybe you won’t use it against me.
♦◊♦
First, let’s talk about what you and I do agree on.
The premise of your article is that members of the geek community do not appreciate being manipulated, and you explain what that manipulation looks like:
I’m talking about an attention addict trying to satisfy her ego and feel pretty by infiltrating a community to seek the attention of guys she wouldn’t give the time of day on the street.
I call these girls “6 of 9”. They have a superpower: In the real world, they’re beauty-obsessed, frustrated wannabe models who can’t get work.
They decide to put on a “hot” costume, parade around a group of boys notorious for being outcasts that don’t get attention from girls, and feel like a celebrity. They’re a “6” in the “real world”, but when they put on a Batman shirt and head to the local fandom convention du jour, they instantly become a “9”.
I think you’re getting at something that concerns me, too. Social media has amped up the already-problematic issue of some women’s addiction to external validation, as potential praise for beauty or sex appeal is simply everywhere.
Once upon a time a girl had to put on her sexiest outfit and head out to the local club to be told over and over again by strangers that she was hot. Now all it takes is a self-portrait on the iPhone, uploaded to Twitter and tagged #Hotstagram and suddenly dozens, possibly even thousands of people are telling you that you are, in fact, worthy of being alive and will someday find love… If you stay hot.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not specifically against any of this technology. I’m actually a huge fan of social media and have built something of a career out of it. I love Twitter and have even fallen down the Hotstagram rabbit hole once or twice (as a viewer, not a contestant).
And it’s generally assumed that men don’t mind being the pawns of beautiful women, especially if the “reward” of that is the opportunity to look at, talk to, and maybe even get to know a hot girl. Maybe that’s unfair, or even untrue, but it is part of the damaging notion that men should have to grovel for the attention of beautiful women, as well as the same taken-for-granted societal assumption that women’s value is in their looks.
However, some of the more sensitive and clever guys among you have figured out that when the hot girl in the Batman t-shirt walks away, she never really cared about you at all. You were her drug, the thing that got her high, that made her feel good about herself for just a moment. Or you were her job, the guy she was supposed to be selling to, and she did it with her eyelashes and her smile and maybe her cleavage and you felt sorta… well… used.
Yes, Joe, you were objectified. These women never intended to know you. They never wanted to date you. And that stings. And it makes you mad. You’re justified, nobody likes being manipulated, it feels really dirty. And not all guys live and breathe for boobies and a Princess Leia costume. In fact, most guys would rather get to know a woman for who she is than be flirted with simply to satisfy the cravings of a woman who is struggling with validation issues.
♦◊♦
But here’s where we have a problem. You offer yourself up as an advocate for female geeks, and you toss out this caveat intended to pacify those of us who may get the hint from your article that you sorta just don’t want women involved:
Now, before every single woman reading this explodes, let me disambiguate a bit. I absolutely do not believe that every girl who attends conventions and likes “Doctor Who” is pretending to be a geek.
There are lots of geeks who are female. Some of these female geeks are pretty girls. I find it fantastic that women are finally able to enjoy a culture that has predominately been male-oriented and male-driven.
And be it known that I am good friends with several stunningly beautiful women who cosplay as stunningly beautiful characters from comics, sci-fi, fantasy and other genres of fandom. They are, each of them, bone fide geeks. They belong with us. Being beautiful is not a crime.
It’s cool that you feel that way, Joe, but something makes me doubt that you truly do see these women as equals and as a real part of your community. I suspect there is a gap between your genuinely good intentions and the attitudes you actually hold. Here’s where I was tipped off.
You start with this:
Case in point: there is a website called Fat, Ugly Or Slutty that catalogs insults, harassment and verbal abuse from male gamers to females on Xbox Live. Reading through just one page of the site made me ill. The big brother in me wanted to go pound the crap out of the thirteen year olds who think it’s cool or funny to demean women for sport.
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And then you criticize Ryan Perez who “did something stupid” on Twitter. Apparently Ryan Perez called out Felicia Day and said she didn’t really add anything to “geek culture” other than her celebrity. And Ryan Perez was wrong because, as you say:
“The fact that she spent her own money to make a successful independent video feature centered around World of Warcraft puts her into ubergeek territory. Not only does she put her money where her interests are, she creates things that further the community.”
But the next line is where you get caught doing “something stupid” yourself:
But then, you have these models-cum-geeks like Olivia Munn and practically every FragDoll (sic). These chicks? Not geeks.
Okay, so what have you done wrong? First, you should be aware that the site you praised, Fat, Ugly or Slutty, was actually co-founded by some Frag Doll Cadettes. The same girls you called “models-cum-geeks” and “not geeks”.
Here are the facts: Frag Dolls are actually female professional gamers. They are paid not just to talk to fans at conventions and demonstrate products, but also to play video games.
Beyond that, as Katie J.M. Baker of Jezebel notes, the actual “Booth Babes” really aren’t trying to trick you into anything:
Booth babes aren’t trying to pretend they’re gamers; they’re hired, like all models, to sell a product. They work long hours, don’t get paid much, and many of them hate being ogled. We don’t get angry that car models know nothing about automobiles, or that hand models know nothing about watches.”
So let’s assume you have a problem with the type of Booth Babes that Baker is talking about, and maybe you’re justified. That still doesn’t give you the right to insinuate that the Frag Dolls are among that crowd, or that they somehow don’t belong in the geek community. The Frag Dolls website explains:
The Frag Dolls are a team of professional female gamers recruited by Ubisoft to promote their video games and represent the presence of women in the game industry. These gamer girls play and promote games at industry and game community events, compete in tournaments, and participate daily in online gamer geek activities. Started in 2004 by an open call for gamer girls with competitive gaming skills, the Frag Dolls immediately rocketed to the spotlight after winning the Rainbow Six 3: Black Arrow tournament in a shut-out at their debut tournament appearance.
By the time of their fifth anniversary in 2009, the Frag Dolls had competed in numerous tournaments including the 2004 Electronic Gaming Championship in Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory, 2006 World Series of Video Games in Ghost Recon: Advanced Warfighter, Winter CPL 2006 in Rainbow Six Vegas and Guitar Hero 2, the Major League Gaming circuits from 2005-2008 in Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter, Rainbow Six Vegas, Rainbow Six Vegas 2 and Halo 3, and numerous online tournaments. The team’s tournament accolades include first place finishes at Winter CPL 2006 in Rainbow Six Vegas, at multiple years of the Penny Arcade Expo in Tom Clancy titles, a 9th place finish out of 116 teams in the Penny Arcade Expo Halo 3 tournament in 2008, and 11th place overall in the Major League Gaming 2007 season in Rainbow Six Vegas making them the first all-female team to make Semi-Professional status in Major League Gaming history.
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I think it’s safe to say that if the Frag Dolls aren’t real gamers, nobody is.
♦◊♦
To sum up: You want to beat up the guys who say rude shit to geek girls because they don’t want girls in their space, but then you say some rude shit about other geek girls? Beyond that, while you call out the guys who don’t want girls invading their community, you still want the option to pick and choose which girls should be allowed in yours.
You claim that “true” geek girls, even if they’re beautiful, are enhancing geek culture. But as much as you claim to like having women in your community, you still want to be the one in power. You still want to be the one who decides which women are “real” and which are poachers. You still want to be able to assign their beauty a value. You want the right to call them an insulting and degrading term that essentializes them to nothing but a number. A “6 of 9”, as you say.
Is that equality? No. And it seems to me that if you want to truly welcome geek girls into your community, you’re going to have to get past the idea that you get to define their identities for them first.
Sincerely,
Joanna Schroeder
(aka “7 or 8”)
For more on girls in geek culture, read Marianne Cassidy’s “I’m a Female Nerd, Apparently”
Photo of Booth Babes courtesy of matchity/flickr
Photo of Frag Dolls courtesy of Facebook
“…most guys would rather get to know a woman for who she is than be flirted with simply to satisfy the cravings of a woman who is struggling with validation issues…”
I definitely like this line. Just saying. 🙂
1. Felicia Day is a freaking comic genius. That guy may have been fired for sexualizing a cultural icon, but he was also dismissing her fans. 2. Fired? Equally dumb (but less hurtful) things have been implied by journalists who still have their jobs. 3. Some Booth babes know what they’re talking about, others are just there to look pretty. There’s nothing unethical about either of those things. It would be nice if they had some hot booth dudes, and / or if both dudes and babes alike had full working knowledge of what they were selling, but I’m guessing… Read more »
I know a few gamers, men and two women who love playing video games. A couple go to conventions, or play on-line. Most just like playing several hours a week. Two of the guys probably play an average of 15 – 20 hours. I don’t know about the wommen, but based on what they tell me, I suspect they get in about 10 hours a week. One of the women is hot. She’s also into manga and BDSM. She’s kind of a freak when it comes to sex. I wouldn’t consider her a geek. The other is average looking at… Read more »
Joanna, I don’t want to defend Joe Peacock, as his texts seems to be angry and hostile, while he only gives reason to be indifferent, annoyed or amused. Why not just shrug or laugh at the people, one believes to be imposers. But this sentence: “I’m talking about an attention addict trying to satisfy her ego and feel pretty by infiltrating a community to seek the attention of guys she wouldn’t give the time of day on the street.” might indicate that it is not about these girls being pretty, but about them behaving (body language included) like they believed… Read more »
In 2004, Ubisoft recruited an all-girl professional gaming team to promote their games, represent females in the gaming industry in a positive light, and just plain kick-butt at games. -From an interview with Frag Doll Cryptik I think that individually the Frag Dolls are real bona-fida geeks and gamers. However, it is pretty clear that looks and attractiveness are one of the criteria (although an unstated one) for Ubisoft when they hire girls to the team. I don’t believe for a minute that there are a 100% correlation between conventionally good looks and gamer skills among girls. The Frag Dolls… Read more »
Did you really self proclaim yourself an “average” 7 or 8? And then go on a rant about whats wrong about this situation?
Yes, I laid all my cards on the table. I didn’t say I was “average”, I said I was an “average 7 or 8” which means like… “7 or 8 on the mainstream scale” as opposed to the two weird worlds Joe Peacock is contrasting which are “geek world” and “model world”. I’m just living in average world.
And I would never give myself a number except IRONICALLY – because that’s how Joe Peacock apparently relates to women: as numbers.
I’d just like to point out that, while the frag dolls might be gamers, their jobs do (at least to an extent) come from being female and pretty. Also, the whole booth babes thing bothers me to no end. It’s a dynamic which isn’t much good for men or women.
“The geek community is an in-group formed by male geeks because everyone else trashed them.” This is such a stereotype. I am married to a “geek”. He is labeled such by his friends because he loves technology, video games, computer games, comics, Robotech, anime, etc. His friends consider him a “geek” because of these interests, which he has had since childhood, but in no way is the umbrella of geekdom exclusive to only those who have been trashed by “everyone else”. My husband is not socially awkward, and he’s proud to call himself a geek. It’s merely a group of… Read more »
Ugh. I should have known that an article about geeky men being manipulated would take a sudden left into how bad women have it. I had a well developed response just waiting to be typed out, too.
Just a couple of quick comments, particularly on this last bit: “But as much as you claim to like having women in your community, you still want to be the one in power. You still want to be the one who decides which women are “real” and which are poachers.” Geek culture has something a problem with wanting to decide which “geeks” are real and which are poachers, full stop. I mean regardless of gender or anything. Part of this has to do with the way in which geeks have been bullied and what-not, and so there seems to be… Read more »
Speaking as a woman who is (1) geeky and (2) not terribly attractive, I have to admit, it is hard for me to relate to really beautiful women. I don’t care much for them, as a rule, unless they are really down to earth and not hung about their looks (but that’s rare, in my experience). I’m just being honest. Guys who get upset about being treated badly by “hot” women (scorned, rejected etc.) don’t understand that those women are often just as mean (if not meaner) to other women.
Guys who get upset about being treated badly by “hot” women (scorned, rejected etc.) don’t understand that those women are often just as mean (if not meaner) to other women.
While true bear in mind that a good number of us guys what we believe to be hot does not necessarily mean the “hot” (conventionally attractive) that you speak of.
Just pointing out that it’s not always the Buffys and Cordellias that we consider hot. There’s a lot to be said about the Willows as well.
Maybe stop trying to relate to “really beautiful women”. Maybe set aside *your* hangup about their looks and try to relate to them just as, you know, human beings?
Sincerely,
Another geeky and not terribly attractive woman, who believes that if I don’t want to be judged by my looks then I should not be judging others by theirs
TheIr life experience is way different than mine, which is why it is hard to relate. I’m not saying beautiful women are bad people, just that they might as well be from a different planet. They are like Martians to me.
Can we just acknowledge for a moment that typically beautiful women are among the most powerful members of our current social model? If you have doubt about this, please, by all means, speak to a girl who grew up outside of that group, who felt ostracized and apart from society, and who finally, thankfully found other girls (and guys) like her, and they realized they all like Zelda games, and they formed these fledgling communities where they found peace, acceptance, and a lack of pressure to conform to a viciously propagated American standard of beauty. Most of these girls will… Read more »
This. Exactly. There are geeky girls who are attractive but they are usually attractive in SPITE of being a geek. Certainly, it is possible to overcome one’s blessings in the looks department through a combination of social awkwardness and pursuit of nerdy activities. I would never assume that a particular girl is too attractive to really be a geek, but I will need to see some evidence of her geekitude before I’m sure. I’m talking about the kind of girl who, at age 14, spent her babysitting money on a microscope (yes, I did that). Who BEGS her parents to… Read more »
And by “worse” you mean “even more awesome”, right? Because I think you had me sold at the microscope purchase.
Uh-oh, now I have to get our tech guys to design the GMP dating widget. 😉 I think you sound wonderful, too, Sarah. I had weird things, too, I was obsessed with books and fictional characters and was depressed about how life never lived up to stories. I lied compulsively until I realized that I could just write stories instead of tell lies, until I realized that I liked my characters better than real people. People are weird. The “popular” kids just hide how fucking weird they are. Trust me, I spent 10th grade peering into the world of popularity… Read more »
“I would never assume that a particular girl is too attractive to really be a geek, but I will need to see some evidence of her geekitude before I’m sure.”
Yes, awesome post. My admins tend to frown on people who log on and immediately declare they are a girl/hot girl. We don’t care and don’t want you trolling trying to start an argument. Now if we find out your a girl through vent/ts/something else, we still don’t care but we’ll keep the trolls off your back.
I would argue from my own experience that true geeks, male or female, suffered the intense pain of social exclusion in grade school/middle school/high school. It is a core part of our identity. Not having dates, being mocked, being treated like a pathetic joke by stupid jocks and mean girls. I know this because I was a geek, my boyfriend is a programmer, I live in Silicon Valley, my friends are geeks. I think many geeks look at hot girls pretending to be geeks and get angry because those girls are on the top of the world. Everybody loves them,… Read more »
I kind of agree with you. Many people forget that geek comes with the connotation of being socially inept. I don’t know that it necessarily excludes attractive people. There are some that are socially inept. It may not look that way because other people are trying to establish social contact with them. Just because the frag dolls may be hot (I’m looking at the two on the right), it doesn’t mean that they weren’t socially imept, although gamer does not necessarily equate to social ineptness. I was a stone geek in grade school. I wasn’t good at (team) sports and… Read more »
There’s a point in the “Metrosexual” episode of South Park where Mr. Garrison, outraged at all the straight men “acting gay,” shouts: “One of us? We spent our entire lives trying not to be one of you!” I think that’s a pretty apt analogy for how most geek men feel about attractive people (of both genders, really, but more so women) making their way into the culture. Now before anyone takes this analogy a little too literally, I’m not saying that geeks are a subculture as unfairly maligned as LGBTs, but the impetus for the creation of their subculture is… Read more »
RE: Frag Dolls.
To paraphrase a Dave Chappelle joke… these girls might not be booth babes, but you they sure are wearing booth babe uniforms. And yes, Joe should have done his homework, but it’s really, really easy to see why he didn’t think they were legit.
They are wearing jeans and t-shirt on the photo. What would be an appropriate uniform in your opinion?
Sorry to burst any entitlement bubbles out there, but no one is actually a pawn of other people. Men and women are not pawns of each other. People who are not conventionally attractive are not under the thrall of people who are conventionally attractive. Consumers are not pawns of corporate-owned media or mass advertising. No one is ever completely manipulated by other people without any consent, or under complete control of someone else. You can’t get suckered into a fantasy of sex with a beautiful woman without giving your own consent to go along with the fantasy. The very fact… Read more »
Do waitress have a history of contempt for “geeks”? Your example is loses an important nuance.
I don’t even have to read this whole article to say… yes. What else is new?
Have you ever gone to a business conference? No different.
I can’t stand when people go, “I don’t even have to read this…” or “I didn’t read the whole thing, but…”
The article isn’t about someone objectifying Booth Babes. That’s what they’re there for. They’re models. I’m not saying someone should leer at them or say rude shit or touch them or ANYTHING. I’m saying, they’re there to sell something by looking pretty.
The article is about something different.
Of course faux-geek girls are exploiting male geeks to get attention. And the male geeks are exploiting the hot faux-cosplayers to get some free visual stimulation. That’s the business exchange, and everybody gets something they want. Sounds like a fair trade to me. I guess you can call it ‘objectification’ and condemn it if you want, but I don’t really see the problem. Shrug. I know the usual reply is “this makes legitimate gamer/geek girls look bad and have trouble being taken seriously,” but… since when were MALE geeks made to look good or taken seriously? Geekdom comes with societal… Read more »
Joanna: I read the article you link to about the life of a booth babe and I am sorry but to hear these folks talk about sexism and being oogled is kinda like hearing an oil rig worker in the arctic complain that it is a cold and dirty job, NO ^%&^ Sherlock. You are there because of your body, not your mind, you got the job because you are considered pretty and have a nice body, if you didn’t you wouldn’t be there. And while standing around all day for $170 might not seem like alot of money, there… Read more »
I object! I reserve the right to hate the frag dolls for wiping the floor with me on Rainbow Six Vegas. Do you have any idea how emasculating it is to hear these broads shout out attack patterns will you’re hiding in a corner wallowing in a puddle of your own digital urine, hoping in vain that the grim reapers with the high pitched voices wont find you!!!
HUH…DO YOU?
I’m not familiar with most of the games being mentioned here, so this is just outside curiosity and probably a stupid question, but:
How do you know what the other players actually look like? How do you know that the person who kicked your butt really is a booth babe? I know people claim to be all sorts of things online that they’re really not….
Ubisoft hosted events on Wednesday nights 2006-2008. Xbox live has voice chat and an active community. BTW they aren’t “booth babes” they are the Frag Dolls, a sponsored udisoft team with they’re own following.
Frag Dolls are there to play, yes, and from what I could gather, they were designed to bring more women into gaming by having REAL gamer women as mentor for girls just starting out to look up to. If they were dumb, or sucked at playing, or half-assed about it, it just wouldn’t work.
As others have said many of the geeks have probably been treated like shit, especially by the “jocks” n pretty types. It’s normal to have backlash, though I hope they move past it. For quite a while I was intimidated and threatened by beautiful people due to the bullying some gave me in school but for the last few years I have gotten to know some VERY beautiful women and they have been nothing short of great people. I think it’s a great opportunity for the geeks who have been treated like shit to actually get to know some of… Read more »
I really wish geeks of all genders would realize that they ARE being manipulated, but by corporations and their advertisers. Geek has become a marketing niche.
Yeah, who’s not? I mean, I feel like you can’t walk ten feet in a city without being manipulated, but it’s nothing new. It’s just that suddenly the smart people behind advertising and marketing realized that geeks are not only very often smart but usually have some pretty solid disposable income. I think the Jez article is smart in pointing out that we simply don’t expect models and spokesmodels to know a ton about the field they’re modeling for. They’re models. That’s okay. But don’t lump the real gamer girls in with the models. Once you stop trying to define… Read more »
And if you want to truly welcome geek girls into your community, you’re going to have to get past the idea that you get to define their identities for them first. Its a matter of trying to protect their community from posers and (and it doesn’t help that not every “protector” is working with a different idea of what makes one a poser). Once you stop trying to define who is “in” and which girls are “out” then you start to really experience diversity. Are you speaking specifically to Joe or to gatekeepers of geekdom in general? I’m asking because… Read more »
I think the attitude displayed in the linked article is wrong, to be sure. But I think the “booth babe” phenomenon is worse than, eg, models at car shows. Car show models are expected to be knowledgeable about the cars they’re selling. They’re not mechanics or engineers, but they’re supposed to be able to answer questions about their product in an informed fashion (it’s not like most of the non-model sales staff are engineers or mechanics either). http://jalopnik.com/5449945/auto-show-booth-babe-smacks-men-down-spills-secrets “We have extensive training from the very engineers that design these vehicles. We have piles upon piles of confidential and public industry… Read more »
Listen, the majority of booth babes are spokesmodels, like Vanna White. That’s totally cool for them, it’s a good gig. It’s a job like any other job, except predicated upon being beautiful. But where Peacock went very wrong was lumping the majority of pretty girls in with all booth babes, out to manipulate you for their own high, is BS. And as I said, putting the Frag Dolls in with them is just ignorant, and feels like he’s tipped his hand so we can see what’s really behind this article – an inherent mistrust and dislike of female gamers (particularly… Read more »
That I agree with fully. Most women, pretty or not, in the geek community are not like booth babes.
“But I do blame companies for settling for the absolute lowest common denominator, making a naked bid to sell sex instead of their product, no matter the toxic attitudes about women they’re catering to and perpetuating (and, for that matter, the toxic attitudes about gamers they’re perpetuating).” I really wonder how effective this kind of marketing really is. Do the companies that use “booth babes” at shows actually sell more than companies that don’t, and how much of it really has to do with the use of those models? I’m guessing the use of “booth babes” has a lot to… Read more »
However, there is a lot of “geek pride” and even the argument that geeks are an oppressed group. They’re not. They’re just another marketing niche.
I just have to ask, Joanna, why should “geeks” value diversity? I mean, a lot of what being a “geek” is about involves social exclusion, as I said in another comment. Geeks banded together and did their own thing because the pretty girls and pretty boys didn’t want them around. So why should geeks have to be accepting of the very kind of people who have always treated them like sh!t, just because now being geeky is kind of a fad?
Listen, geeks don’t have to do anything they don’t want to do. One commenter mentioned a “test” that everyone – guy or girl – has to go through in order for their group of friends to accept them. If you want to recruit like that, that’s cool with me, as long as you apply it equally. For instance, I can’t see being friends with someone who drops brand-names like a Real Housewife or is bigoted against POC or LGBT people. However, if they don’t know what POC or LGBT stand for, that’s cool, as long as they aren’t bigoted. You… Read more »
What I got from Joe Peacock’s article is that he resents women who aren’t geeks — in fact, women who may be the FURTHEST THING HUMANELY POSSIBLE from what it means to be a geek — pretending to be geeks. Now, you might argue, “geeks don’t geek to define who is a geek or not” but I think they do, or at least, they have a right to an opinion. My boyfriend, who is INCREDIBLY geeky, said to me once, “If the cool people become geeks then geeks will have to become something else, because cool people will never really… Read more »
Yeah, and that’s the part I agreed with him on. That if there are women who are looking to fulfill their affirmation addiction and they are using you for that high, it doesn’t matter if you’re in the geek community or not – it sucks. And for a girl to put on a Batman tee shirt and flirt with dudes she has no intuition of knowing, for that purpose alone, is dishonest. That’s not the same as him lumping the Frag Dolls in with Booth Babes OR girls looking to use Geeks for validation. We’re talking about three very different… Read more »
And if you want to truly welcome geek girls into your community, you’re going to have to get past the idea that you get to define their identities for them first. I think this desire speaks back to some of the basic reasoning that lead guys into the various geek communities in the first place (and possibly even the very creation of those geek communities). They were ostracized by others and alienated by all the “normal kids”. Well unlike other “normal kids” its girls and women that are trying to make their way into those communities (because even for as… Read more »
It is not just that. They were also hurt by people who look, act, and sound like those trying to get into their community. It really does not help matters when the women who are not welcomed with open arms start in on the “you’re just a bunch of whiny boys” comments. That just reinforces male gamers’ suspicion of women who say they like video games.
It’s odd… Look at your wording: “Women who say they like video games.” Why can’t it just be “women who like video games”? It’s so bizarre that there is so much suspicion there. I get it that there is this manipulation factor in the “booth babes”, but why look at the Frag Dolls or girls like that and say, “they SAY they like video games.” Is it so hard to believe they don’t like video games? I chose the two photos I did on purpose. There isn’t a single photo on in Flickr or the Frag Dolls Facebook page where… Read more »
Treating them with suspicion is why you’re getting that “whiny boy” response, which creates a self-fulfilling prophecy about women for you.
It sounds like a mean loop of suspicious and self fulfilling prophecies. And the only way it will end is if it ends on both sides. But depending on which side you’re coming at it from there aren’t calls to end it on both sides.
You say you get it that these guys were mistreated but then you don’t understand why they are suspicious of women?
Joanna, you took the phrase out of context. In context, I am talking about the reality of it being very difficult to tell the difference between women genuinely interested in games, those only interested because it is socially cool (for the moment), and those with some other agenda. I do not think the “suspicion” is bizarre. The geek community is an in-group formed by male geeks because everyone else trashed them. They wanted a place where that would not happen, so they made it. When you are dealing with people used to being bullied and mocked, chance are that they… Read more »
Something to keep in mind for those guys is that not all pretty female geeks were those cruel, hurtful people at *any* time of their lives! Girls are every bit as likely, if not more, to be teased, ostracized and hurt by others for being geeks. In other words, girls and women are not ALL the ‘normal people’ you speak of, and it’s hurtful and bewildering that you’d even explain this discrimination with that falsehood.
– a pretty, geeky girl cosplayer who was the butt of many a joke and often friendless in her teen years