Joanna Schroeder asserts that the viral story of a woman who was raped and made pregnant leads to many bigger questions about how states should legislate parental rights of rapists.
There has been a wildly popular news story making its way through both the Internet and mainstream media the last two days—that of the very brave Shauna Prewitt who is sharing the torment of women like herself, who conceived a child from being raped.
It’s impossible for most of us to imagine the trauma of a woman who was raped, and made pregnant by the rape (estimates of these occurrences range between 15,000-30,000 babies conceived via rape each year, depending upon data collection methods), and then legally forced to see her rapist on a regular basis while fighting for custody of the conceived child. It’s beyond comprehension, really, and it strikes a chord within our psyches as one of the most wrong things that could happen to a person at the hands of the law.
It’s natural to have a knee-jerk reaction and to think, “That should be illegal!” But we must take a closer look and examine exactly how a law against this would work.
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First, we should be clear that there are states with laws on the books that talk about custody in the case of fatherhood via rape. The Daily Kos blog details such data. This is going to be a long quote, but the information contained is critical to our discussion:
The latest case to discuss this issue is Shepherd v. Clemens, 752 A.2d 533 (Del. 2000). There, the court concluded that when a child is conceived and born as the result of an unlawful sexual intercourse as defined in the code, the biological father shall not be permitted visitation. This does not violate constitutional principles. “No court has held that the mere fact of biological fatherhood that was the result of a conception during a criminal act and that is unaccompanied by a relationship with the child, creates an interest that the United States Constitution protects in the name of liberty.” See Lehr v. Robertson, 463 U.S. 248, 259-62 (1983). See generally Deborah L. Forman, Unwed Fathers and Adoption: A Theoretical Analysis in Context, 72 Texas L.Rev. 967 (1994).
Don’t like ads? Become a supporter and enjoy The Good Men Project ad freeOther states have similar statutory provisions. Alaska Stat. § 25.23.180 (1999) court may terminate parental relationship if child was conceived as a result of sexual assault, and termination is in the best interests of the child); Cal. Welf. & Inst. Code § 361.5 (West 1999) (reunification not provided to parent of child conceived as result of sexual assault); Conn. Gen. Stat. § 45a-717 (1999) (court may terminate parental rights of parent convicted of a sexual assault resulting in the conception of a child, except in certain cases of statutory rape); Idaho Code § 16-2005 (1999) (court may grant termination of parental rights as to a parent who conceived a child as a result of rape); 750 Ill. Comp. Stat. Ann. 50/8 (West 1999) (father’s consent to adoption not required if he fathered child as result of criminal sexual abuse or assault); Ind. Code § 31-19-9-8 (1999) (notice to father of adoption proceedings not required if child conceived as result of rape, incest, or sexual misconduct with a minor); Me. Rev. Stat. Ann. Tit. 19-A, § 1658 (West 1999) (court may terminate parental rights of person who conceived child as result of crime involving sexual intercourse, unless court informed that the act was consensual); Mo. Rev. Stat. § 211.447 (1999) (biological father’s guilty plea or conviction of forcible rape of the birth mother is conclusive evidence to termination his parental rights); Nev. Rev. Stat. § 125c.210 (1999) (father has no right of custody or visitation if child conceived as result of sexual assault unless consented to by mother and is in the best interest of the child); N.J. Stat. Ann. § 9:2-4.1 (West 1999) (see infra text accompanying this note); N.M. Stat. Ann. § 32A-5-19 (Michie 1999); N.Y. Dom. Rel. Law § 111-a (McKinney 1999); Okla. Stat. Ann. Tit. 10, § 7006-1.1 (1999) (stating that the court may terminate parental rights if the child was conceived as a result of rape); 23 Pa. Cons. Stat. Ann. § 2511 (West 1999) (father’s parental rights may be terminated if child conceived as a result of rape or incest); S.C. Code Ann. § 20-7-1734 (Law Co-op. 1999) (father not entitled to notice of adoption proceedings if child conceived as result of criminal sexual misconduct); Wis. Stat. §§ 48.42, 48.415 (1999) (§ 48.42 stating that no notice is required to the father in a termination of parental rights case when the child has been conceived as a result of sexual assault or rape; § 48.415 stating that parenthood as a result of sexual assault or rape is grounds for involuntary termination of parental rights).
Now, let it be known that I am nowhere near a lawyer or member of law-enforcement. My degree from UCLA is in Women’s Studies, and so I obviously have to approach this conversation as a layperson, but I think it’s important to discuss what we really want, and need, in this situation in order to create a safer society, rather than react out of unreasoned emotion.
Most, if not all, of the states that have legislation about the case of paternity rights of rapists use wording that seems very helpful. For instance: “Conn. Gen. Stat. § 45a-717 (1999) (court may terminate parental rights of parent convicted of a sexual assault resulting in the conception of a child, except in certain cases of statutory rape)“. This statute simply states that the court has the right to block a man convicted of raping a woman from having parental rights to resulting child. Such was the case with Shauna Prewitt, her baby’s father’s rights were revoked. This seems like good language—it allows the court the discretion to determine whether or not said father should have paternal rights.
In Connecticut, the law applies to those convicted of the sexual assault that resulted in the child, but not to those who are accused of a rape. But many people on the Internet are talking about how these law should also apply to those who are also accused of rape.
This may cause another knee-jerk reaction. We think, no way can we make a law preventing fathers accused of raping the mother from having parental rights! They haven’t even been convicted, imagine the abuse this law could suffer. And while I maintain that the number of women who would lie about being raped and having conceived a child is relatively small, the possibility of any accusation having legal consequences to a person’s parental rights is frightening.
And so we return to the notion that a father should only lose parental rights or custody if he’s been convicted of the crime. But we have to bear in mind that there is a pretty serious gap between the time in which a person is accused of a crime and when he or she will actually be tried and found guilty or innocent of said crime. This interim time can often be up to 18 months, and being as a baby gestates for only 38 weeks, there’s a very real possibility that even in the most obvious cases of rape (i.e. a lot of physical evidence), a father could petition for parental rights and custody, and no law would bar him from doing so until he’s convicted.
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It seems nearly everyone can agree that our legal system is deeply fallible in determining guilt in rape cases. There are notable examples of women who have falsely accused a man of rape, only to recant after the man has served prison time. These cases are relatively rare compared to how many rape convictions are handed down with solid evidence that they are just verdicts, and yet they happen. Beyond that, as Prewitt points out in her article in the Georgetown Law Journal, the conviction rates of reported rape are startlingly low compared with other serious crimes. Can we depend upon our judicial system to find just verdicts in rape trials? Many—on both sides—say no.
Finally we land in the middle ground, full of questions and stuck in an ugly quagmire. Should there be laws allowing a judge discretion in preventing a father from contacting the mother whom he’s accused of raping, as well as preventing him from gaining custody or even visitation of his child? Possibly. Should the accused father have his parental rights terminated on the basis of the accused rape? No.
Here’s why: As it stands, a judge in a family court can still deny the accused father access to the child regardless of the conviction. If the judge deems the father to be dangerous, he or she can deny access as they see fit, from a judicial standpoint. In collecting evidence, the judge will hear testimony from the mother and consider the accusation and evidence and then rule.
If a father has not lost parental rights, he can continue to pursue custody and do what happens in some of the stories Shauna Prewitt relays—drag the alleged victim into court on a regular basis for the duration of the child’s dependency, causing further trauma (imagine if the victim were one of the many rape survivors who experiences PTSD as a result) and ever-mounting legal fees.
And yet without conviction, it’s hard to imagine that a law keeping an accused rapist from access to—at the very least—due process in his custody process would be constitutional. It is not a perfect judicial system, but it is the one we have. With our presumption of innocence until proven guilty, a lot of grey area exists in which exploitation can occur. And yet without this presumption of innocence, we are not a free society.
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To me, as an admitted layperson, it seems we need to look not only at laws like some of the states cited above have, but also elsewhere in order to protect rape survivors from further trauma. We need to look deeper, and get even more grassroots. We need to revolutionize the way we, as a society, regard rape victims. We need to respect them as we do victims of any crime. You know the old story, if a woman is mugged and her purse is stolen, we don’t say, “Why were you carrying a Louis Vuitton? Weren’t you asking for it to be stolen?” We need to see the victim as an innocent, just as the rapist is innocent until convicted. We need to be make the judicial system a safe place for victims of sexual assault—both men and women—to bring their cases as soon as they happen, when evidence is most available, so we have more accurate convictions.
We also need to understand that men can be victims of rape, even at the hands of women. If we’re talking about custody or parental rights being disallowed for either accused or convicted rapists, we also need to talk about what would happen in the case of a woman who became pregnant from raping a man. As far as I know there are no statistics about how often this happens, and if there are I’d bet they aren’t as peer-reviewed and replicable as we’d like them to be. But that doesn’t discount the fact that no doubt that pregnancies like this (even if rare) have occurred. Would that woman be exempt from laws that allow judges to terminate parental rights of men based upon an accusation or even conviction of rape?
There are no good answers here. We’re asking people to have faith in a very faulted system. We’re asking women who have been raped to return to court to face their rapists in order to determine custody and parental rights, at least until a conviction is handed down. But why do we do it?
For freedom and the equal right to due process for all individuals.
Because when we need the presumption of innocence, it is there for us, and it must apply to everybody.
What do you think of Shauna Prewitt’s mission to educate people about the suffering many mothers of rape-conceived kids experience?
Is “innocent until proven guilty” even the best system for maintaining freedom?
How best should we legislate parental rights and custody in cases of children who were conceived via rape?
How can we, at a grassroots level, change the way in which rape victims of both/any gender or sexuality are treated within the judicial system? How will this aid the process of protecting survivors of sexual assault who conceive?
For more reading, check out Yes, Rape Victims Get Erections, Too
Image of Custody of Child courtesy of Shutterstock
I don’t think that anyone is actually in favor of just striping parental rights of anyone “accused” of rape which is what you are suggesting here. What people don’t like about the laws is that they require the extremely high burden of proof inherent in a criminal conviction with it’s “beyond and reasonable doubt” standard. Most parental rights termination proceedings require only “clear and convincing evidence” which is still a high standard (higher than that required for most civil proceedings) but isn’t as high as “beyond a reasonable doubt.” If “clear and convincing” is good enough for every other termination… Read more »
I think the reason for it is twofold: 1: The crime committed was not against the child, and in fact, was committed before the child was conceived. Stripping a parent of their rights for actions unrelated to their ability to care for the child… where does it stop? Can it be done for murderers (of some non-related individual)? What about car thieves? Can any felony conviction do it? Does it even need to be a felony? 2: The time has (presumably) been served and the debt to society has been paid. now, admittedly, that doesn’t do anything for the victim,… Read more »
This whole rapist father getting custody thing is kinda a red herring, these fathers are getting visitation which isn’t near the same thing as custody, not even close. But it does raise some interesting points regrading custoday , visitation and child support. I wonder, how many people who oppose these men getting any sort of contact would still require them to pay CS, you know the whole responsibilities vs rights thing. I was reading an article some months about about a men who found out he was not the child bio father and successfully fought it in court, the court… Read more »
That is a very good question John. It seems, to me at least, that when talking about visitation/custody and support visitation/support is classified as “for the father” and support is classified as “for the child”. There is no shortage of arguing that regardless of the conditions of the situation a father must pay that support because it is for the child but will then turn 180 and say that custody/visitation is for the father only so it’s not that big of a deal if he is not in the child’s life in any form other than money. So to the… Read more »
Barry Goldstein said: “The common problem of sensitive discussions like this is the failure to place the arguments in context. Thus already a substantial part of the discussion has been diverted to the extremely rare situations where women make false allegations or commit the rape.” Mr Goldstein with all due respect to your view, this statement alone really undercuts your entire argument. You use the term “extremely rare” when discussing false accusations. The best (i.e. feminst friendly) studies show false accusations at between 8 – 10% and I am sorry but no one would say that 8 – 10% of… Read more »
Regarding the abuse of children I think people are missing the point. The 2006 Health and Human Services Child Maltreatment report shows that mothers commit 70% of parental child abuse (even when sexual abuse is included). Mothers also commit 70% of all parental slayings. The issue isn’t child-minding hours. The issue is the winner takes all sole custody model. Last I read a study some 14% of the populace has undiagnosed mental disorders. The sole custody model takes away a child’s best defense against a dysfunctional parent (or a dysfunctional live-in parental figure) THE OTHER PARENT. The solution is shared… Read more »
Hi John D.,
I think you have an interesting point which rings true to me. You wrote:
Study after study has showed that children of divorce raised in shared parenting solutions fare the best.
which is the exact opposite of what Barry has claimed. I am hoping you can provide some cites for the studies you refer to, because they might become very handy and they will bolster the argument against Barry’s position.
I don’t have any handy right this moment. A good tool to use is the search tool at the fathers and families webpage as the previous executive director Glenn Sacks has been debunking this hogwash for 13 years and most of his links to studies and editorials was ported over to the F&F webpage. I think GS joined FF as exe dir in 2008 or so. Just type in shared parenting. Just search for shared parenting or fatherlessness. Also, keep in mind Barry hasn’t posted any supporting links at all. I didn’t even see him name the study that “proved”… Read more »
For Tamen (or anybody else interested) here are some links to studies on fatherlessness (as well as a couple editorials from people thanking their fathers): ht tp://www.physorg.com/news200849688.h tml men who had close contact with fathers more likely to be emotionally stable ht tp://www.projo.com/education/juliasteiny/content/EDWATCH_21_02-21-10_L CHFEIR_v9.2937bd2.h tml “fatherlessness is a wound that doesn’t go away” ht tp://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31086977 devoted dads reduce teen pregnancy ht tp://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-me-irby-mandrell8-2 009mar08,0,1865029.story Barbara Mandrell honors her father’s love & support. ht tp://open.salon.com/blog/amytuteurmd/2009/02/23/are_fathers_optional A child is owed a father, and any woman who is unable or unwilling to provide one is making a self indulgent, selfish choice to conceive a… Read more »
Thanks John D.
They are now bookmarked.and I’ll look through them at a later point.
And these assertions of fatherlessness having no effect results in articles like what is in the New York Times, rightly denigrated here
What the hell is a “parental slaying?” Can you give me the links to the evidence of these “parental slayings?” Actually, “mothers commit 70%…” if based on CPS findings is really needs to be contextualized. That number sounds scary but I am well aware of the biases, constitutional violations and pervasive bullshit that goes into a “child welfare” case. 70% roughly, of so called “abuse” falls into the “neglect” category which in most cases is a far cry from any kind of abuse. Single mothers are particularly targeted because their financial situations are conflated with neglect- such as lack of… Read more »
You need to be careful when drawing conclusions dividing incidents by time spent, with regards to physical child abuse. Having briefly worked in child care, knowing how to handle the stress of parenting is a skill learned over time. Watching young children is not a task for the ill equipped or novices. You often hear stories of non-related parents being left to care for young children and losing control. Here are some key statements on child abuse that need to be incorporated into the thinking and discussion: – Most reports of child abuse are from neglect – About a third… Read more »
That’s an interesting point, time spent gives people better ability to cope with the responsibility.
I hate it when they say “parents who are (under financial stress) are 2 to 3…” NO- they are two to three times more likely to have their financial situations used as a way to accuse them of abuse or neglect. We need to stop conflating poverty with neglect and letting them get away with saying the poor neglect more because their poverty is neglect. Its a circular argument that builds up like a cascade effect.
“Is “innocent until proven guilty” even the best system for maintaining freedom?”
This isn’t the first time I’ve sen it suggested that the presumption of innocence isn’t appropriate in cases of rape. And feminists wonder why men are turning on them. Why feminism is being seen as a hate movement.
First, Mark, I am not saying it is or is not, I’m merely asking in order to incite discussion. And Mark, just in case you missed something, go reread my piece again and see how I believe we HAVE TO maintain “innocent until proven guilty” in order to keep a free society. Read what I wrote in the piece, read it with open eyes. THAT is what I’m saying. A discussion question is not the same as an assertion and you’re a grown man and should know that. Don’t ever misrepresent me again. I’m certainly NOT suggesting “innocent until proven… Read more »
The common problem of sensitive discussions like this is the failure to place the arguments in context. Thus already a substantial part of the discussion has been diverted to the extremely rare situations where women make false allegations or commit the rape. The main topic is how should custody courts respond in cases in which the father raped the mother. The fact that so many states would consider the rapist as just as qualified for custody and visitation as the mother demonstrates that the custody system strongly favors fathers. I believe it would be better for custody courts to focus… Read more »
Thank you so much for this. It is simply awesome and informative and we’re in your debt.
Think through what this guy is saying before you say it is “simply awesome.” I am a working father while my wife is a SAHM. If we follow Mr. Goldstein’s model laid out above I would be relegated to a every other weekend visitor in my children’s lives if my wife chose to divorce me. You may be in Mr. Goldstein’s debt but I and every other father out there who either lives under the threat of becoming a visitor to their kids or has been unjustly removed from their kids lives sure as heck isn’t. There is copious research… Read more »
Thanks, Joanna for your kind words. I appreciate the contribution you have made with your article. The comments by Texpat demonstrate the problems caused in our custody courts by people including professionals who seek to make decisions based on the needs of the fathers instead of the well being of children and the use of unsupported “research.” I need to be familiar with the latest and most credible scientific research because I have written and edited some of the leading books related to domestic violence and custody. There was initial research based on a study with a small sample under… Read more »
In Marriage: 1. My kids ride to school with me multiple days per week. 2. I put my youngest kid to bed every night 3. I have dinner with my children every night All in my wife spends approx 3 hours more per day more with my kids because she is able to stay home due to my earning ability. In Your ideal Divorce 1. My kids lose out on all time with Dad except for every other weekend- destroying a valuable relationship 2. My kids lose out on time with Mom because she’s gotta work a full time job… Read more »
First, Texpat, you’re obviously (as far as we can see) not abusive. Second, you’re clearly involved in your children’s day-to-day lives and a huge part of their development. What Barry is talking about in his main point is that ABUSIVE fathers who use the custody process to maintain contact with, and further control their partner are being given more import than needed because of what he believes are misleading statistics. In your case let’s go back to the Both/And scenario and talk about what can hopefully come out of mutual growth and progress – you could ask for more/primary custody… Read more »
Joanna, Barry made statements that carry over to all fathers, not just abusive ones. #1:I believe it would be better for custody courts to focus on the well being of children rather than the “rights” of parents. #2 “Many judges repeat the false assumption that children need both parents equally.” This has to be the worst statement I have ever read. Study after study proves conclusively that having a loving fit father in a child’s life leads to much greater outcomes. #3 “Separating a child from their primary attachment figure increases the child’s risk of depression, low self-esteem and suicide… Read more »
I wonder if the anti-shared parenting people realize the lack of a male role model is also very damaging, and one of the leading problems we have with boys success in schools at the moment, let alone in their life? Where exactly are these boys going to get a decent role model if even good fathers have their contact time with kids cut severely? I had my father up until adulthood when he died suddenly, my mother cannot replace him or fulfill his role at all in my life, I am a male, I can’t relate 100% to her. There… Read more »
One more thing- I certainly don’t need you of all people to tell me what a good father would do. A good father’s presence is more valuable to his children than his absence. What an asinine thing to say.
I completely agree with you that a good father’s presence is more valuable to his children than his absence. 100%. Barry was talking about abusive and controlling fathers who are given default custody or joint custody because the court determines that it’s better to have both parents, even if one is shitty and manipulative.
But women are just as often abusive as men are………So much for that whole argument.
Yes, by some numbers they are. By other numbers they are not.
Only if you choose to ignore / minimize female-centric methods of abuse. I’ve been on the receiving end…… and those that ignore / condone those behaviors are not part of the solution.
Yeah, the new CDC report states 50% more men report controlling and dominating behavior. Apparently, the CDC is not good enough a source, but incredibly small studies with shoddy methods and done by orgs with an invested interest to conclude as much male on female violence are acceptable.
Go figure.
My wife sputtered,hemmed and hawed when her therapist definitively stated that her self described behavior was emotional and physical abuse…..It’s not just women that get abused, men just don’t report it for a assortment of reasons…..In my case she had convinced me I’d lose my kids. Therapy is helping her….but I’m a mess….in tears as I post this.
So Barry, if shared parenting harms the kids as you say, would stay at home fathers be awarded custody automatically as the primary parent?
“Abusers often use the courts to gain access to their victims (this is more often applied in domestic violence cases) which does enormous harm to the mother and children.” This is the kind of thing you think is absolutely awesome? This is the kind of thing I’d normally expect you to condemn. This article and your responses to it are very disappointing. And before you try and claim this comment was specific to rape victims, read again, he is stating that abusers (read men, given the victims are mothers and children) use the courts to gain access to their victims,… Read more »
Yet women are responsible for more than twice as many deaths of children as fathers. It increases when you include mother and partner as opposed to father and partner so are children really better off with their mothers or is that just an outdated myth? You can’t be much worse off than dead.
John, I was referencing the fact that a large majority of contested custody are domestic violence cases in which the most dangerous abusers who believe she has no right to leave are willing to hurt their children in order to regain control over their victims. You are referencing more general statistics that fail to consider the fact that mothers provide the overwhelming amount of child care. If you used the context of the amount of time taking care of children with any harms, you would find mothers have a much better record. This is what I discussed originally about the… Read more »
Yes, this goes back to the often misunderstood notion of correlation and causation. I feel someone should write an entire article on just this. I did this over in another article: This is very simple. I’m certain someone has explained it to you before, but anecdotal evidence—even when matched with a correlation of factors simply does not prove a causal relationship. Doubt the truth of this? Try this thought experiment: I’m going to tell you something that is absolutely true. According to well-documented trends, the bigger your shoe size, the smarter you are. You have greater reading comprehension, math skills… Read more »
Joanna- here is an empathy moment for you. Imagine you’re a working dad with a SAHM as a wife. You spend every free minute with your family. You have a real and present relationship with your kids. You take them to school a couple days per week and you put the youngest to bed every single night. Your children come to you interchangeably with your wife when they’ve got problems or questions. All in you spend maybe 2.5 hours less per day with your kids because they’re in school most of the day. Along comes a guy like Barry and… Read more »
Maybe you need to reread what I wrote, and what he wrote in all his replies.
And if you want to defensive and combative and not listen, then fine. But that’s why people think that MRAs are combative and unreasonable. You feel strongly, I get that. But you don’t need to classify him as someone bad with bad intents.
Sometimes you can learn something from someone you disagree with. You can also respectfully agree with parts of his argument and disagree with others.
This whole “baby with the bathwater” thing just isn’t working.
I’m no MRA. I’m a late 30s dad of 3 who’s been married nearly 15 years. I take issue with Barry’s exact quote here: “So Texpat, I can understand why you would not like the idea of having time with your children every other weekend, perhaps an evening during the week, holiday and summer vacations. Assuming you are a good father you would want more, but a good father would be willing to sacrifice his needs for his children’s benefit. ” He’s saying that GOOD FATHERS should sacrifice time with their kids in the interest of the children. Yes, he… Read more »
The quote you list is troublesome, I can see that. I even asked him the same question regarding my own husband and kids, theoretically. You and I are both in theoretical situations (thankfully).
I’m saying, let’s not attack. Let’s look at how we can work together toward mutual goals and disagree respectfully and inquire rather than accuse.
I didn’t mean for this to be about me, but was trying to offer some information based on current research which often is very different from the information we see in the media and the courts. More than 95% of custody cases are resolved more or less amicably. Parents know their children best and in cases that do not involve abuse they are willing to sacrifice their preferences for the well being of their children. One of the reasons we know shared parenting works poorly for children is the frequency in which parents initially agree on shared parenting and later… Read more »
Johanna and Barry, Which statistics do you refer to when you say women spend the overwhelmingly more time with children than fathers? Where can I find statistics on that? Here is Barry’s assertion which it sounded like Johanna agreed with: You are referencing more general statistics that fail to consider the fact that mothers provide the overwhelming amount of child care. If you used the context of the amount of time taking care of children with any harms, you would find mothers have a much better record. The closest I have found is the American Time Use Survey from Bureau… Read more »
We said that based upon the data offered, that couldn’t be determined.
Your math seems correct, but in order for it to be a good calculation you’d have to have controlled for the same factors in the studies. It’s a good guide, however.
But yeah, no one in this discussion said women actually have a better record. I wouldn’t’ feel confident with that sort of extrapolation.
Joanna (apologies for writing Johanna in another comment):
I think you have read through Barry’s and my comment to fast and missed something. He not only said women had a better record, he said they have a much better record. I’ll quote Barry again:
Yeah, you’re right, I saw it when I read it again. I didn’t internalize it before because I understood the implication was that he was talking about abusive men. But yes, he said that, you’re right. But I didn’t!
I don’t have specific statistics about relative child care handy as this is not closely releated to custody issues I handle. I believe I have seen some articles in the Liz Library that might be helpful. I can, however speak to some more general info that I think it missing from the analysis. There are certainly more single mothers than fathers by a wide amount. As the abuser rights people constantly mention, mothers do more often receive custody, usually with the approval of the father. There are also more stay at home moms than dads again by a significant number.… Read more »
I’m having difficulty grasping your point. Mothers in general are great. I know. I have one. She raised 4 children mostly by herself. My father died when I was 2. “Mothers in these circumstances do far more work at home in addition to their paid job and much of this is caring for children. I think you would also find that mothers are more likely to take off from work when the children are sick or there is an emergency at school.” Fathers are also more likely to put in more time at work. Fathers tend to make more money… Read more »
I believe the point is the women are facing the extra stress of dealing with kids all day, and having heavy workloads. But that still doesn’t excuse them from their abuse anymore than a man working hard at a highly stressful job comes home n beats his wife for not having dinner on the table. Abuse isn’t gendered, both men n women are capable of abuse and with many forms of abuse the rate is close to parity. Some men n some women are violent, fullstop. There comes a point though that being scared of the new husband abusing kids… Read more »
“I believe the point is the women are facing the extra stress of dealing with kids all day, and having heavy workloads.”
Women also often have several more months than a man to consider the impact of a child on her life before deciding to have one.
Barry: Clearly you did not bother to look at the American Time Use Survey I linked to.
It’s an average for time spent taking care of children in the household for ALL women and ALL men. Hence it takes into account single mothers, stay-ad-home mothers and so on.
Well Joanna theirs another important aspect of statistics relevant to this conversation that may inform the discussion and help our friend Barry and his prejudicial studies. Try this thought reality: There is a very real and palpable force in our society separating men from children. People like Barry, who insist on a causal relationship between men who contest for custody of their children and men who abuse women and children (and let’s not sugar coat this, Barry is sure domestic abuse equals men), are active in our society discouraging men from taking an increased role in the live of children.… Read more »
@ Barry “If you used the context of the amount of time taking care of children with any harms, you would find mothers have a much better record.” But that would only logically follow if you believed that at some point everyone would eventually kill a child. Why don’t other child care providers, like day care workers (responsible for 12 deaths), who are constantly around children not have similar numbers to mothers? The second problem with the argument is that it doesn’t consider what is best for the child. The question you ask is is a mother more likely to… Read more »
Comparing childcare workers is not equal, John. There are many factors that make them not comparable including state licensing procedures and regulations, the fact that they’ve chosen childcare voluntarily, whereas parenting is not voluntary once your child is born (mostly), and the presence of other childcare employees nearby to relieve a person if they feel stress or to monitor the worker’s behavior.
Your other stats are intriguing but the first is disingenuous.
“Your other stats are intriguing but the first is disingenuous.” That’s why I also said. “But that would only logically follow if you believed that at some point everyone would eventually kill a child.” I understand what you’re saying but I was countering the argument that access is the primary indicator of child abuse rather than the character of the person doing the abusing. I don’t think that women are more predisposed to abusing people than men. I think that their options are more limited whether in fact or only in their minds is not something I’ll get into. If… Read more »
@ Barry “Abusers often use the courts to gain access to their victims (this is more often applied in domestic violence cases) which does enormous harm to the mother and children.” People often claim abuse during a divorce, when the abuse was never documented prior to proceedings, to gain material advantage during custody proceedings. I think in cases like this the allegation should factor heavily in the favor of the other parent in gaining custody. At the very least, this parent allowed the child to live in an abusive home. The worst case scenario is that this parent is maliciously… Read more »
John, you just summarized the myths that are the biggest part of the failure to protect children in custody courts and we have a lot of strong research so I hope you can hear this and understand your assumptions, which are shared by many court professionals could not be more wrong. In the book I co-edited with Dr. Mo Therese Hannah, there is an important chapter by Judge Mike Brigner who speaks about training other judges about domestic violence. The most common question he receives from other judges is what to do about women who are lying. When asked what… Read more »
Barry writes: “An important study cited by Dr. Saunders and led by Nicholas Bala found false allegations by mothers to occur 1.3 percent of the time.” Citations please. Most family lawyers who are retired from the business and don’t face consequences state perjury of wrong-doing is a “go to” defense for most mothers. It has also been stated by family lawyers that restraining orders are given out like candy with no factual finding of harm or the threat of harm. Additionally, since TRO’s and ex parte orders are part of a civil process they use the preponderance of the evidence… Read more »
Is *this* the study you were referencing? ht tp://www.canadiancrc.com/PDFs/Parental_Alienation_Nicholas_Bala_Scholarly_Paper_Summary_12MAY09.pd f I see no referencing of a rate of false allegations by mothers that substantiate your claim that only 1.3% of claims by mothers of father harm turned out to be false. What the article does show is that roughly 53% to 64% of the time when the non-custodial parent stated that custodial parents were using false allegations and other tools to alienate the child from the non-custodial parents the court in fact agreed with them. The conclusion from that is there is *a lot* of false allegations going on. Other… Read more »
Here is another study by Nicholas Bala: http://leadershipcouncil.org/docs/Trocme.pdf Excerpt: “Results: Consistent with other national studies of reported child maltreatment, CIS-98 data indicate that more than one-third of maltreatment investigations are unsubstantiated, but only 4% of all cases are considered to be intentionally fabricated. Within the subsample of cases wherein a custody or access dispute has occurred, the rate of intentionally false allegations is higher: 12%.” So, this study records a false allegation reporting of 4 to 12%, not 1.3% as you stated. Additionally, there are a third of allegations that are unsubstantiated. If false allegations have the requirement that the… Read more »
Since when is the rape of men by women rare? In a one year period the CDC actually found 40% of rapists were female, that men n women were raped at equal levels and men being raped 79.2% of the time by females, if you include forcing someone to penetrate/envelopment as rape. Or are you using the definition of rape that is forcibly penetrating someone, thus women cannot rape men unless they use an object, finger, etc? I find it hard to take people serious when they seem knowledgeable of stats yet say rape of men is rare by women…my… Read more »
Barry Goldstein writes:
“The fact that so many states would consider the rapist as just as qualified for custody and visitation as the mother demonstrates that the custody system strongly favors fathers.”
Care to explain how fathers receiving primary custody 14% of the cases of divorce to mothers 80% is a “SYSTEM STRONGLY FAVORS FATHERS”??
Please let’s try to keep our feet on the ground. The simple fact is father is a four-letter word in family court, and despite biased statements like the quoted sentence, this is becoming much much harder to hide from most people.
Actually, I mis-stated. The typical result of divorce is mother primary custody 80% of the time, shared parenting 14% and father primary custody 6% of the time.
How in the world mothers winning primary custody 13 times as often is a system strongly favoring fathers as Barry states, I have no idea. But, I’d love to see a response.
Simple… Because it’s proven exceptionally difficult to completely remove fathers from the equation, the courts must favor men over women. IE, the courts favor men because they won’t marginalize them 100%. The fact that the rights of men and children to have even a trivial relationship comes before the mothers feelings is an assault on mothers.
I just spit up my cola reading what you wrote Mark laughing.
Good catch.
The cynic in me laughed, the human in me cried. What a fucking sad state of affairs huh? I truly hope if I get married n have kids….we all stay together.
That will depend on the whims of your wife, and if she decides you have no place beside YOUR children, you will have an uphill battle of thousands of $$$$$ and heart-wringing hours and still might lose all parenting time thanks to family lawyers need to feather their nests.
Agreed. I’ve always wanted kids, but the cynic in me doesn’t see it happening. I’ve seen too many family members lose their own kids and become indentured servants to vindictive ex’s to put myself through that. I’ve seen too many abuses of the child support system that would cost more to remedy then to accept, and even if remedied, would only solve the immediate symptoms and leave the problem still intact (as an example of what I mean, my Mothers husband is paying full child support, trying to get it modified down because his daughter is in uni and living… Read more »
So, the entrenched problems with our family and child welfare courts have nothing to do with say…Title IV funding, incentives to charge huge irrational child support obligations, sickening corrupt courts and judges who are out to support themselves…nope- none of that? Its the fault of those damn money grubbing vindictive mothers who never ever have every been abused in any way ever because the abuser says he’s not an abuser?
No- the courts favor men because they WILL marginalize the woman our of her children’s life 100% if she just keeps annoying the court with her evidence of child abuse!
Joanna: ” Beyond that, as Prewitt points out in her article in the Georgetown Law Journal, the conviction rates of reported rape are startlingly low compared with other serious crimes. Can we depend upon our judicial system to find just verdicts in rape trials? Many—on both sides—say no.” Did you read her links, because she doesn’t say the conviction rates for “REPORTED” rapes are low, if you follow her links, she is talking about rapes with of course the included, ‘estimated’ number of rapes in a year. She states that only 2% of rapes result in convictions, this includes the… Read more »
Janet, the word “relatively” is there very purposefully. It means “relative to”. Second, yes, you’re 100% right in my use of the word “reported” – I knew that she was using the estimated numbers, and while I understand why people use those numbers (people do it with both rape of women and rape of men) they are troubling numbers. Other figures I’ve seen have reported 0.35% conviction rate from the combined estimated and reported numbers. None of these are good solid statistics, but the 2% I think is actually a better guess. Also, tell me exactly how, even if I… Read more »
It’s fictional BS like this that creates a self fulfilling prophecy, and it really bothers me that you would be willing to perpetuate it. Let me explain. Reported rapes include false accusations. So when one argues the only X% of reported rapes get convictions, as if all reported rapes were, in fact, real rapes, one can often play this up as “rape isn’t taken seriously. This then deters real rape victims from coming forward, leaving a larger portion of those reported as being false. This then results in even less convictions, which makes it look like it’s even less taken… Read more »
Mark I don’t even disagree with you about the problems of statistics. In fact, I agree that there is a perpetuating notion to the idea that if we say “rape reports aren’t taken seriously” that we’re creating a world where they simply won’t be.
However, we need to look at the reality of the experiences people have in order to make change. It’s not different for victims of rape who are male. There simply are NOT good numbers on this. Does that mean we don’t TRY to explain its prevalence?
My issue is with your use of “they are troubling numbers”. They are not troubling numbers because they are not verifiable, and what parts of it are verifiable are lumped into a single category, IE any rape accusation is an actual rape. You might as well have added scare quotes for effect. Acknowledging this is not the same as ignoring the issues, but to attempt to drive emotion, or worst policy and laws, based on nothing but conjecture is irresponsible. Now, admittedly your article does not appear to be trying to drive any such policies, but the statistics you use… Read more »
@ Joanna “However, we need to look at the reality of the experiences people have in order to make change. It’s not different for victims of rape who are male. There simply are NOT good numbers on this. Does that mean we don’t TRY to explain its prevalence?” That’s why I find the arguments between MRAs and feminists so amusing at times. I’m an MRA and if I was a misogynist as many feminists would assume, I would support the accusation = rape standard of proof that many feminists seem to be pressing. I think that it is much harder… Read more »
I’m a feminist who is against non-medically necessary circumcision in children. And I think your proposal about not having opposite-sex prison guards is valid. I haven’t thought much about it, so I don’t want to make an assertion, but I’m hearing you. Education about male rape victims/survivors is massively important. I just watched this movie called “Take Me Home Tonight” that I thought was really great for a mindless RomCom. But it had what I would consider a brutal female-on-male rape scene. I cannot make sense of how ANYONE doesn’t get that this is disgusting… To portray the rape of… Read more »
“Legitimate Rape”. With those words the political machine has started to churn out call for “Laws to be changed”, stories are written, mostly without actual facts, i.e. was there a conviction or not. Doesn’t matter because one dumbass senator said something totally ignorant and stupid and now all men (especially GOP men) must pay the price. What better time to call for action on rape , rapists, child custody, child support and of course a string of new laws all bound back to the words “Legitimate Rape”. Yes, folks this is how things are done now. CNN posits a story,… Read more »
Joanna: “We need to revolutionize the way we, as a society, regard rape victims. We need to respect them as we do victims of any crime.” Could you expand this? I don’t really understand what this means. Do you propose any changes in how law enforcement handles rape cases? How do we as a society view rape victims and how do we view victims of other crimes? Could you link to some evidence?(This might sound confontational, but it is not meant to be. I think we need a good clear image of the status quo, if we want changes.) How,… Read more »
That’s the hardest thing of all, probably. Our society has this weird mis-match of outrage over rape coupled with shaming the victim. So they say, “No! We’re totally against rape in every way!” But unless the woman shows up bloodied and wandering around in a field or something, the claim of rape seems to always feel like it’s being doubted. Questions about how she (and especially so if it’s a he) might have asked for it or deserved it, etc.
You didn’t really answer my question, so I will reformulate my main one. What behaviour do you wish I (meaning: some guy) would show when I get to know about an alleged rape case, I have no personal connection to (meaning: I have no personal relationship with either the alleged victim or the alleged rapist). My current position is: I try not to have a opinion, as long as the is no verdict in court, and after a verdict I usually believe, that justice has been surved. This means that the alleged rapist is innocent in my eyes as long… Read more »
I think every single case is different. 99% of the time, I would say you gotta treat him how the court would. However, once I KNEW a guy (actually 3) had raped a girl I went to HS with. I knew her VERY well, I saw how she changed afterward, I knew the guys and it was very very obvious, but they got away with it because she’d had consensual sex with them before and other factors. They got some charge like serving alcohol to a minor. But I knew they did it as well as you can every know… Read more »
Let’s say that a woman rapes a man or boy. Evidence exists that is incontrovertible. She takes a plea deal and the case is wrapped up in a month or three. Can the courts force the woman to have an abortion and at what stage(s) of the pregnancy should this be allowed? If the answer is no, then there are certain rights that people don’t give up even when they commit rape. If the answer is no, then the feelings of the victim do not always supersede the rights of the perpetrator. Some people will counter that in cases like… Read more »
Court-enforced/mandated abortion is the WORST thing I have ever heard of and I can’t think of a single situation in which it would be justified. This is not a personal attack at you, John Anderson, nor an argument – just my visceral reaction to the idea of a court forcing a woman to have an abortion. I’m as pro-choice as they come and that just strikes me as wrong on every level. I do understand that the victim in this hypothetical case “has still fathered a child that he did not wish to father and had no ability to prevent.”… Read more »
There is only one way I’d accept it, for extreme birth defects known before the baby is born. If it ever happens that we know 100% a baby will be in nothing but pain and die soon after anyway, then I’d find it horrifying, sickening, and quite frankly evil that anyone would ever allow that pregnancy to continue. But I’d say it’s so rare it probably isn’t even worth mentioning, but yeah that’d be the only potential reason for a forced abortion, to stop a fetus/child developing into something that would be nothing short of torture.
It was a good post, pretty balanced. There was something that struck me that you made reference to later in your post. That is the rape of men and particularly boys. Feminists have perceived bias in the court system and so I guess MRAs also tend to read things and see how these laws can and sometimes do cause injustice to men. “Most, if not all, of the states that have legislation about the case of paternity rights of rapists use wording that seems very helpful. For instance: “Conn. Gen. Stat. § 45a-717 (1999) (court may terminate parental rights of… Read more »
Well, the courts have determined that women who have committed /statutory/ rape at least deserve to retain custody of their children, and sue for child support
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermesmann_v._Seyer
Make of that what you will, I guess.
Oh, I didn’t see that the woman in question was 16, and the boy 12/13. I don’t know if that still counts as statutory rape, since both were under 18 but he was below age of consent
Also note that most of the states have statutory rape clauses, because often that’s a totally different story.
Yeah, it’s a little bit different when both people in question are minors. In a lot of states, female teachers who had slept with students are usually registered as sex offenders, and as an result they’re not allowed to go near any minor much less have custody of children. some states allow for that though. I do know of one case where it was “allowed”, though, but it was in 1997 to 2004. And of course in 1997 there was plenty of people who still thought that males couldn’t be raped by females. by other males, sure…. but never females.… Read more »
Yeah I disagree that the men need to change bigtime alone in order for change to happen. I think both genders need to change, countless women believe they cannot overpower a man thus they can never rape and that’s for adult-adult abuse, they even think a teenage boy can easily defend themselves against rape. The majority of people I’ve heard say that a hardon = he wants sex comes from women, so many women haven’t got a clue about the male reproductive system and assume a hardon = consent, I guess similar to some who think a woman being wet… Read more »
Yeah I know there are women out there who thinks that a man can easily control his hard-ons, and thus that if he has a hard-on he must be horny. I do agree that we have to reeducate people about that too. However, most women I knew were easily appalled when they heard about some older woman going after teenage boys young as 13. Even if they thought that the little boy must had wanted it, they still recognized the fact that this boy was still too innocent and not quite ready for sex with somebody older at all. Whereas… Read more »
“but this is pretty much a man’s world” Are you attempting to equate the entire world’s social structure into a single unified system applicable everywhere? IE, because china and india are largely male dominated, and they make up a large portion of the world, the world is male dominated. Or are you attempting to suggest, even western society, that largly bends over backwards to accomodate women, Who’s economic spending is largly controlled by (and thus driven by) women, who’s men die for the protection of women, who’s voter population is largely made up of women, and who’s leaders pander largly… Read more »
“You might not want to see it, but this is pretty much a man’s world, even if we’re slowly changing that. So thus the laws and such are often written or approved by men.” This is by no means a man’s world, at least in the west. Anyone who suggests so might want to take a long hard look at society. This is a humans world, with some areas favouring men, others favouring women. In my experience it has been mostly women who have denied that women can rape men, when I tell women of the new stats of rape… Read more »
I suppose it also depends on the areas we live in. around here, if you suggested to any of the men that they could be raped by a female, they’d laugh you right out of the state! they’re swaggering lumberjacks, farmers, and every other macho stereotype that you can think of. they also invest heavily into the stereotype of the silent, macho man who doesn’t ever share his feelings. they believe in such a way of life to the point that they seriously believe that all men must be this way. and that those who doesn’t follow the “code of… Read more »
around here, if you suggested to any of the men that they could be raped by a female, they’d laugh you right out of the state! Of course there are men like that. That is what happens when you are shamed into silence when it comes to being the victim of a sex crime based on their gender. (Just to clarify. Yes women/girls are shamed into silence when it comes to being the victim of a sex crime based on their gender but it is very different shaming. A girl/woman is shamed by way of having her womanhood tarnished. She… Read more »
(How often do you ever hear someone say, “There is no way he could have raped her, women can’t be raped.” vs. “There is no way she could have raped him, men can’t be raped.”) sadly I do hear a little bit of both a lot of times around here. my state has one of the highest drinking problems in the USA that we actually have been compared to Ireland in terms of how much we drink. No kidding. As an result, a lot of drunken rapes are more likely to occur around here. and it can happen to both… Read more »
so I hear a lot of “She couldn’t had been raped…. she may have been drunk, but she was still able to stand. thus she could had fought him off or said no! what was she thinking anyway, having drunken sex? she should have known better! to call that rape… how ridiculous!” and for the men we hear: “lol, a married man coming to a bar? he was too drunk to stay faithful, and ended up having a quickie… he’s in hot water now for sure! deserves him right.” When it comes to using one’s gender as “proof” that they… Read more »
Yeah, I read the Shawna Prewitt story in CNN. It seems she had to forgo a criminal trial of her rapist in exchange for him dropping his parental rights b/c, the story implies, her state would preserve his parental rights over the child post conviction. If true, that’s an atrocious miscarriage of justice. But that’s if he were convicted, a critical nuance that is not stressed in the Prewitt story. I do fear that these earnest efforts to bring justice to the afflicted can potentially over-swing, particularly once they have the momentum and moral authority to bestow political capital to… Read more »
Could always balance by making it: If you rape, you lose custody, If she falsely accusers, SHE loses custody. False accusations only, not the lack of evidence so charges are dropped stuff.
You mean that if she’s found guilty of a false accusation, with proof, then she loses custody. Seems fair, I mean, if you actually DO falsely accuse someone you could almost consider that attempted murder in some states where 1st Degree Rape is a capital crime. I mean, imagine if Brian Banks had been sentenced to death? Wouldn’t she be guilty of attempted murder? On the other hand, if someone confesses to falsely accusing, there is that massive and horrible quagmire of whether to press charges. They deserve to have charges pressed, and yet if you press charges you create… Read more »
Yeah if she willfully lied about it as a way to hurt him, eg the cases where a woman will say the father abused the child as an attempt to gain full custody of the kids. In my eyes that is an extreme perversion of justice, and should be punished heavily. If it’s a case where a woman misidentifies the rapist (if that happens?) then there’s no ill intent there and don’t think I’d want her charged, although he would need his life fixed somehow even if that means the courts have to pay for damages to reputation if it… Read more »
Another roadblock if the false accuser isn’t charged then simply it sends a message that you can try this and if it fails then all you don’t face prosecution, it reduces the barriers to committing that crime.
For example for the women who falsely-accuse the father of abuse in family courts, if they aren’t charged when it’s found out then doesn’t that let others who are considering it know that they can attempt it without fear of prosecution? Gives them a chance it’ll work and if it does then no biggie, no jailtime, no fine, etc.
@ Joanna “On the other hand, if someone confesses to falsely accusing, there is that massive and horrible quagmire of whether to press charges. They deserve to have charges pressed, and yet if you press charges you create a major roadblock to other people being set free when people admit they were lying.” I think that should be a mitigating factor and not automatically be a get out of jail free card. I think that if penalties were raised on false accusation such as whatever the falsely accused served plus 2 to 5 as a minimum, it might actually encourage… Read more »
That’s a good thought, John.
Random Stranger you’re so exactly right about the weird way that CNN and xoJane both completely averted the issue of whether her case even went to trial, it’s all inference. And also the fact that both articles COMPLETELY avoided conversation about whether the laws she’s proposing required conviction, and of course they ignored the fact that women can rape men and become pregnant and, you know, what then!? I was going to write an article more scathing of the other pieces that ignored those facts but frankly, it felt sort of dirty to me because my guess is that she… Read more »
I hate being in this position really, but I have to point out another problem with denying parental rights in the case of a child conceived by rape. Even if he was convicted of rape, it would be very hard in many cases to prove that the child was conceived by that specific act of rape. The burden of proof would be to prove that there was no consensual sex between them at any point near the estimated point of conception. Hate to come down on this side, but there is the real possibility of consensual sex leading to conception… Read more »
I actually disagree that it matters. If a person is convicted of rape, he or she is a rapist regardless of when the child was conceived. If a woman and man are married for ten years and then he rapes her and she can prove it enough to get a conviction handed down to him, he should lose access to his children until they are of legal age to choose for themselves. It’s no difference if they had sex a week earlier and then he raped her and she couldn’t prove with intercourse was the impregnating one, he’s still a… Read more »
Would you extend this to other crimes like if he stole money from her or others, beat her, etc or just rape? It all sounds like a legal nightmare, I don’t think rapists deserve to have rights over children conceived by rape. With a father that conceived with consent, then rapes her…I dunno, becomes very tricky to deal with especially if those kids already have a strong bond with him, cutting off contact may hurt them, but keeping contact may hurt her. It’s one of those situations I leave up to the people in power to decide because it’s so… Read more »
The more I think about what I wrote, the less convinced I am about what I said. (So, maybe the solution is to stop thinking about it….) Once in a while I go all “ad absurdum” just to see where I wind up. In this case I should have taken a left turn at Albuquerque.
Hahaha. I do a similar thing. I take the opposite of any mainstream opinion (usually the opposite of a feminist perspective) and then I work through the logic. It’s the way that I know, even when people say I’m like a feminist-brainwash victim, that I’m certainly not.
think of it this way… there are a lot of pedophiles out there who fathered children with their wives. sometimes the pedophiles doesn’t believe in incest and that’s VERY lucky for their own children but not so lucky for other kids out there. so if this pedophile is a convicted pedophile, then his kids are usually taken away because we don’t want to take the chance that he might change his mind on incest being taboo. Rapists and Pedophiles often share one thing in common–they like their victims helpless so that they can have a bit of power-trip over their… Read more »
Do we take kids away from women that mentally or physically abuse them? All types of abuse are damaging, not just sexual, so why only stop rapists from being around their kids and not the other abusers?
I hate rapists as much as the next person but this is a slippery slope methinks…You could find a reason to take kids from all kinds of abusers, is one slap enough? one punch?
I tend to think that kids should be taken away from abusers, no matter what the gender. Although you’re right, in trying to define things there’s sometimes a slippery slope. but I think one way of getting around this is to look at the kids themselves. Abused Kids often exhibit signs of abuse, no matter how much they try to hide it within the family. http://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/factsheets/signs.cfm this link provides very good examples of what signs to look out for. and they do point out that the presence of a single sign does not prove child abuse is occurring in a… Read more »
Yeah, I just find it strange there is a hyperfocus on sexual abuse as being the big baddie of the world whilst other abuse gets less of a mention or hatred. A child abuser is bad to me, whether they beat their kid or sexually assault them, even someone that demeans them with emotional abuse and ruins their self-esteem is terrible in my view.
I have to agree with you… all forms of abuse is bad no matter what. I think the reason why sex abuse gets so much press is because it tends to be more visible physically. So it’s easier to prove, and is more harder to ignore as an result. Add on the whole horror of rape, and you got a media winner. sometimes whereas things like emotional abuse is harder to pin down. Heck, emotional abuse could even happen only once by people who thought themselves good parents. They could get mad at their kids one day, and then say… Read more »
Father and families has done a number of articles on this very topic, and it brings up some good points. It also brings up an example of a similar scenario with the genders reversed that lacks a certain sense of equality in the outspokenness of advocates. In the example, the mother is in jail for attempting to kill the father. The father is no longer a legal resident of the US. The courts have granted the father primary custody, but deny the father taking the child back to his native country and requires him to bring the child to the… Read more »
I wonder how the courts would handle the case of the twenty-something year old woman who began showing attention to a lonely, hurting, vulnerable twelve-almost-thirteen-year-old-boy. She was kind and gentle and caring and showed him love that he so desperately needed. When she started touching him and inviting him to touch her, he thought it was ok because she loved him and he loved her. It wasn’t long before the touching changed to other things but it was ok because she gave him pills to help him relax and told him she loved him and he loved her. It wasn’t… Read more »
First, my heart aches and burns for the young man in this story. This woman is without a doubt a rapist, and a child predator and probably a pimp and a number of different types of incarnations of evil and should be in prison.
Second, I would hope that if the baby had been born, that all rights would have been stripped from her as I assume they would be if a male child predator had impregnated a young woman.
It’s a devastating story and I hope whomever’s story it is is able to find some semblance of peace.
Thank-you for your kind words Joanna. I wish I could’ve waited to write that post until I was in a better frame of mind. I am rather embarrassed and I apologize about bringing my own history into this discussion in that way.
Unfortunately, I have little faith that had our child been born my abuser would have been denied contact with her.
There’s an awful lot of use of the word rapist, and not a lot of the word “alleged.” Can we call a man a rapist if he has been acquitted of rape? I don’t think so as he has been found innocent by a jury of his peers. I think one of the greatest problems with the media’s approach to alleged sex crimes is the fervent attachment to guilty until proven innocent which is still guilty because the court must have failed the victim. Why is it that we treat alleged sex crimes differently? I understand the visceral repulsiveness of… Read more »
First, we need to discuss what “alleged” means. It means someone said it happened, but has not yet been proven. In the case of this article, I say “accused” and “alleged” when it makes sense, but being as I’m not talking about any particular person, there is no need to say it when we are in a thought experiment about what would happen if a rapist were allowed to seek custody of the child he fathered through force. If he’s convicted, it’s no longer “alleged”. I don’t even really understand why you would raise this point. Go scan it again,… Read more »
also important to keep in mind different burdens if proof in criminal court (beyond a reasonable doubt) and civil/family court (preponderance of the evidence aka “more likely than not”)