No that was not my title but the title from a recently published article in Psychology Today by Jennifer Musselman (yes a woman).
“Guys are flaming out in school, wiping out socially with girls and sexually with women,” says Philip Zimbardo, professor emeritus at Stanford University in a TED talk just last year. According to Zimbardo’s recent research, guys are 30 percent more likely to drop out of school, girls are surpassing boys intellectually at all grade levels, boys are five times more likely to have ADHD and boys make up two-thirds of all special-ed and remedial students.
What’s causing the rapid decline of these modern men? In addition to the video gaming and porn usage that Zimbardo points to, my colleague and mentor, Matthew Healy (a licensed Marriage and Family therapist and former psychology professor) suggests that women may be playing a larger than expected role in the contemporary guy’s demise.
She goes on to conclude:
While the biology of sex suggests that there are great differences in ways of nurturing, Healy notes he doesn’t think one is better and each can do the job without the other. However, if a woman perpetuates the notion that childcare is gender based, she is not only maintaining her superiority, but Healy says she is passively expressing her low opinion of her man’s ability to care and nurture. Moreover, she is preventing her male counterpart from learning the stereotypically female skills that may be granting women an upper hand. Perhaps worse, she may be partially responsible for the growing imbalance of responsibilities in male-female relationships and contributes to the overall modern male demise.
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So the real question is whether or not childcare is gendered–do men and women take care of children differently? I am sure the gender essentialists have a POV on that topic but I tend to think that we as men and women do bring something different to how we care for our sons and daughters. And that as the primary caretakers of the past generations, women rightly feel that they know better. Men might do it differently–even better in some distinct regards–but they won’t always be viewed that way by their wives because a dad’s way may not always be a mom’s.
Or I could be completely wrong. I do think it worth thinking about and talking about. What do you think?
I get the impression women are extremely jealous of their power in this area. I wonder if they are afraid that a man might do a better job of parenting than them if given the chance? It’s completely unlike the reverse situation where men are happy for women to do work traditionally done by men. It’s ironic because of all the sexist slogans about men fear strong women and so on, but I think women are a LOT more reluctant to give up their power and that may be because the “power” men are giving up wasn’t really power at… Read more »
I would agree that men and women probably take care of children differently. I’d be interested in seeing how affected by culture this is. For example, Mark Neil mentioned an article describing how men and women hold babies differently. I wonder if it is similar in other cultures, or whether that is strictly something men and women in modern western society do. I definitely don’t think that either men or women are inherently better parents, though.
On an off topic note directed at Jennifer Musselman’s article: stop demonizing video games and porn!
“On an off topic note directed at Jennifer Musselman’s article: stop demonizing video games and porn!” Agreed. Video games and porn use (to extremes) are more likely a result of the problem, not the cause. As boys and men are made to feel less and less valued, and begin opting out of a society (school, relationships, etc. ) that appears to hate them, they turn to things to compensate, sometimes sports, sometimes games, sometimes porn, sometimes other things. Things that make them feel good about themselves. Things that can challenge or stimulate them. Games aren’t the problem, they are a… Read more »
I simply cannot figure out how gendered childcare correlates to the demise of men. Women have always done almost all or majority of childcare chores throughout history and men have survived it.
This might serve you as an answer: Since children primarily went to school (instead of working in the farm with parents), women have kept ALL children including boys. That means that boys were not being taught manhood very much. As men worked outside the home, this continued. Today, a woman can have just about any professional job a man can have, so officially women have encroached on what used to be “male” territory (working and earning money). Unfortunately, very few men are given the option to demonstrate competency at childcare, which is traditionally “female” territory. The result is that women… Read more »
If the new ambition of men is to change diapers of babies, then certainly manhood would demise.
“So the real question is whether or not childcare is gendered–do men and women take care of children differently?” Differently… yes. I was reading an article on this at fathers and families, with an interview of a nursemaid who described some very different tendencies between men and women. What I liked about the interview was the nursemaid described the benefits of both styles. One observation she made was that women tend to hold their infant children facing them, chest to chest, allowing the child to see the mother, and offering a consistency and assurance to the child. Meanwhile, fathers tend… Read more »
Considering that %90 of k-12 teachers are female explains a lot about why the percentage of boys being drugged has risen in direct proportion. Not to mention all those male teachers run off by either false accusation of the inherent power of false accusation. Is it possible women are NOT contributing to the downfall of men when some demographics have a %80 single mother household? The more honest question would be: Are men allowed to help boys in this culture? The answer is no. Consider those %90 female teachers have taken womens studies courses where they learn false ideas like… Read more »
wellokaythen My wife, daughter, DIL and her two sisters and her mother, and many of my wife’s (our) friends are teachers. The reason boys get more attention–“counters”–is that many of them are in the “quiet, please” category, which doesn’t fit the feminists’ need to show boys are favored in school by more teacher attention. So counting calling on a student who her raises her hand as equal to a “back in your seat” command to a boy is necessary as long as you don’t tell anybody how you do it. As to hunters: boys are rambunctious when they’re bored. Presumably… Read more »
I don’t think boys are being targeted or neglected so much as given the wrong sort of attention. Boys still seem to get more attention in school than girls do, and this may actually hurt boys more than girls in the long run. My impression is that girls are more often left to fend for themselves in K-12, so by the time they reach traditional college age they’re often more independent than boys are, because they’ve had to be. As a college instructor, I’ve gotten calls and e-mails from a dozen mothers asking me to find some way to give… Read more »
“…diaper changing, bathing, making lunches/cooking healthy meals, taking kids to school, getting them dressed/undressed, brushing teeth, potty training, laundry, cleaning up their toys/other messes, warming up milk bottle and feeding, reading bedtime stories, helping with homework, washing up dishes…”
I did that. My son does that. I think the expectation that men don’t is unsupported.
I have always been skeptical of Ritalin (which is really funny since I am in the health profession)…and then I found out my son needed it starting in 3rd grade (and what a significant improvement in his behavior and attention span and personality as observed by all those close to him)…..When I watch him struggle with sitting still and trying to concentrate and study for his Ancient Egyptian History test, he reminds me of my 2 brothers when they were his age….I had no such problems or academic struggles at all in grade school….and yet now that my brothers are… Read more »
I don’t think women are intentionally contributing to the demise of men. I think some of these women do lament about their situation, so men can hear and offer to share in the responsibilities of childcare. Not all men are natural nurturers, some of them need nudging…a lot of nudging…causing women to become annoyed. And that’s when they may react they way they do (as described in the article). Because you know, if men don’t see the importance of their role in child rearing and snuff at these responsibilities…then you can’t blame women for showing some superiority in this area.… Read more »
Michelle, how do i get to be a male in your extended family so I can get out of doing that long list of duties you think men don’t do on a daily basis? Oh, in addition to your list, please add to this man’s duties: making enough money to pay all the housing, transportation, insurance and eating bills, paying the bills, saving for retirement, paying tuition, mowing the lawn, taking out the trash, vacuuming, painting, snow shoveling, pest removal, getting up to investigate and provide “protection” when there is a strange sound in the house or just outside the… Read more »
I think you got it right Tom. As traditional caregivers, women make the rules about home and children and men’s involvement is highly dependant on the woman’s willingness to allow him to be involved and not interfere.
The answer to the question is “Yes.”
The women’s rights / women’s empowerment movement believed that women could and should gain all the rights and privileges traditionally reserved to men while requiring men to continue to bear more of the distasteful burdens and shaming men from engaging in behaviors and endeavours that women prefer to reserve for themselves and from acting in ways that make women uncomfortable.
Boys are raised the way the are, and men are treated the way the are, because most women want it that way.
I think young men also drop out of highschool to work and buy a car. Aside from the convenience benefit, having a car gives them sense of independence and may make them a “chick magnet”. A car is great too once you’re enrolled at college, you can drive it to your part-time job and also drive back to see your parents. I think the pursuit of a ride is more importance to boys than girls. Whereas girls are more interested in getting school done and out of the way and jump straight into a career. Young men think about material… Read more »
Michelle —
I’ve missed you! Good to hear from you again.
I was wondering if you had some other good ideas to contribute about how to make boys drop out of school, become wage slaves, become shackled by child support payments, become drug addicts, commit suicide, do most of the dying in their country’s wars so they can be unemployed, brain damaged and suffer from PSTD when they come home, etc.?
Sounds like you really think things are working out just great for boys and men.
Wanna trade places?
Well I know two of my brothers dropped out of school, from high-school and after 1st year of college (they returned later to finish) to work and save up for a car that got them from point A to point B. I’m sure if you did a survey of students, to see how many boys vs girls own cars…I bet you more boys have cars. I’m just sharing my observation, that’s all. You don’t need to turn everything into a negative. I never said dropping out of school is a good idea, nor doing that in order to work and… Read more »
Well there’s that and also bear in mind that a long with convenience of that car comes the responsibility to work, or at least it usually does. Kind of a “get out there and join the workforce ASAP because ‘real men’ work for a living”.
Bingo, Danny. Women are encouraged to have choices. Men are encouraged to have responsibilities.
Which is odd when you look at how the women’s movement lingo goes along the lines that women should have more freedoms and men should have more responsibilities.
Couldn’t help but notice in the first line: “Guys are…wiping out socially with girls and sexually with women” So, is she suggesting that men are being rejected by women today more than they were in the past? If that’s true, couldn’t that be due as much to the women themselves as to men? That part of the first paragraph clearly suggests that women’s behavior IS part of the equation. The difference in the dropout rate is alarming. It would be useful to see what the rates are for re-enrollment, or for college completion over the lifespan. I suspect men drop… Read more »
Ah, Philip Zimbardo of “Stanford Prison Experiment” fame. Well, I guess he would know about people declining into a degenerate, violent existence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_Prison_Experiment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Zimbardo
Many people call me a nuturer, others a care taker and some say I have a mothering instinct. This is all true. At times I can be smothering and I’ve been accused of mothering my own mother. However, I absolutely hate it when people call it a mothering instinct. I think that term should be thrown out of our vocabulary because it implies that men don’t have the capibility to nuture and care. Or maybe we should create a new term: fathering instinct. Type fathering instinct into Google and its says did you mean mothering instinct. What a load of… Read more »
I think it is wrong to use the broad brush of gender to define parenting capability. I’ve met plenty of great moms, plenty of great dads, and plenty of both that struggle. There must be a finer metric to use than gender.
Amen. I think it has to do mainly with maturity and competence.
“So the real question is whether or not childcare is gendered–do men and women take care of children differently?”
Certainly child care is gendered. On average, mothers prioritize spending time on a child, fathers prioritize spending time with a child. Mothers fuss over clothing, bibs, showers, schedules, haircuts, and paid lessons. Fathers play soccer, read books, play wrestling, tell stories, play football, climb fences, and build treehouses.
These are general patterns of course. There are exceptions.
This is not a very good way view. What you listed for “father time” is really the fun part of having a child. The formula shopping, diaper changing, and showing and the less-glamorous but very much necessary parts of raising a child. You’re basically saying that mothers do the grunt work and fathers are there for play time. If that’s what you call “prioritizing time with a child”, I think that your view is a bit warped. Having a child is not all fun and games. There’s a reason the phrase “love’s labor” was invented.
look up something called “maternal gatekeeping” Mothers who do this don’t actually want a “partner” they want an assistant. They (the mothers) “know” the right way to parent and they’ll be damned if they’ll let you do it any other way. You want men to help out more with the childcare? Then women are going to have to give up some of the power they hold in that sphere. They’ll need to realize that they dont always know best, that what they’re obsessing over with isn’t that important, and that if they keep telling (subconsciously and consciously) fathers how inferior… Read more »
I’m not sure what this has to do with my comment. Are you implying that women do more grunt work because they want the “power” of doing grunt work? Not sure I follow that one. I don’t know a single mother who would say that her child’s father is literally not capable of changing a diaper or bathing a child.
Because the grunt work also comes with the decision making, what formula to get, what the child will be eating, what kind of clothing the child wears, when the child eats or naps, etc. When fathers are treated as just another child to be taken care of (as many maternal gatekeepers do) and only allow a father to participate in playtime, where no responsibility exists beyond “don’t let the child get hurt/run off”, that’s what you get. Now, admittedly, I don’t think 8Ball took into account what you were responding too (IE, Anthony’s claim that these things are a fathers… Read more »
Sure, but how many of those mothers figure they’re the ones who know best how to bathe a child, or what is best to feed the child? What are their reactions when Dad does something differently then they (the mothers) would do it? Do they correct the father, or do they stop and wonder if maybe dad’s way isn’t that bad after all? (Let’s assume that “Dad’s way” Is not at all endangering the child, because that’s a different situation entirely) If they move immediately to correct the father, then they are a maternal gatekeeper, because they automatically assume that,… Read more »
“What you listed for “father time” is really the fun part of having a child.” Words like these have been used for far to long to undervalue the male contribution to child care. I am going to call what you are attempting to do the female-advocated-role-supremacy-enshrinement (FARSE). People (of both genders) who push FARSE attempt to peddle the illusion that typical-mother behaviour is “not fun”. Sorry, I am not buying. Most FARSE supporters (of both genders) enjoy dolling up their darlings as much as I enjoy a tumble in the grass. Of course, anyting becomes hard work after enough repetition.… Read more »
If you think that most women spend their day’s picking out “perfect school outfits” for their little girls, I think that you’re a bit mistaken. Most parents I know don’t have time for that. I’m not talking about stereotypical tasks, I’m talking about the actual tasks that are required to raise a child. Most people would agree that some tasks are considered more “grunt” than others. If you think that playing tag with your child is equivalent to caring for a sick child or changing diapers or washing bibs with vomit on it, I just don’t know what to tell… Read more »
Why exactly do we need a Men’s movement, when they dominate business, politics, science, you name it? When we have an equal number of women in the boardroom, housework is equally shared, women’s acomplishments in sport are recognised equally to men’s etc etc then men can start asking for a Man’s movement. Men are not put upon in society, never have been, any where in the world. I agree the gender roles are now confused, however to shriek that men have it bad, I think is abit rich.
“.. however to shriek that men have it bad, I think is abit rich .. ” This is only true if you look up. Men dominate boardrooms, but also dominate prisons. Men are the majority in congress, but also among the homeless. Try this experiment: make a list of the 10 WORST things that can happen to a person. You can put anything you want on that list. Any kind of violence, any kind of accident, any kind of disease, suicide, substance abuse, problems with the law, homelessness, insanity, death of any type, extreme disability, etc. Then, for each item… Read more »
Thinking of only the worst and best case scenarios isn’t going to help anyone. Would you rather have a .00000004% chance of being a shark attack victim (which men dominate) or a really high chance of having to be a single parent not-by-choice (which women dominate)? People should really be focusing on what will help society as a whole, rather than trying to argue about who has it worse. It’s like showing up to a charity to benefit homeless people and shrieking about how no one there is doing anything to help people who are actually starving in other countries.… Read more »
Why exactly do we need a Men’s movement, when they dominate business, politics, science, you name it? Simple because sharing gender with those men that dominate business, politics, and science doesn’t mean a damn thing. Just about any man that’s not at the top with those guys you’re talking about knows this. When we have an equal number of women in the boardroom, housework is equally shared, women’s acomplishments in sport are recognised equally to men’s etc etc then men can start asking for a Man’s movement. So basically you’re saying “help women first”? Because that is just about what… Read more »
“A men’s movement would work hand in hand with a women’s movement. Due to the fact that both women and men are bound by gender roles that feed off of each other in a very dangerous way you can’t expect to completely satisfy the issues of one and then come back to lend the other a helping hand.” Very well put, sir. One of the reasons that our society has such issues with gender relations is that we’re living in a “half changed world”. Things will only really go smoothly if both genders are on the same page as far… Read more »
“half changed world” I like that. I think that at the least folks on different sides of the gender discourse have to at least be willing to acknowledge the way gender roles treat those on the other side. And by that I mean that while feminists and MRAs don’t have to literally join hands at the very least each side must be able to acknowledge how men and women are treated, respectively. Feminists aren’t going to get much done if part of their work is to actively deny the oppression of men and MRAs aren’t going to get much done… Read more »
“Why exactly do we need a Men’s movement, when they dominate business, politics, science, you name it?” Because business and politics and science are not the only valuable things in this world. Having access to real, legitimate emotions and being able to express them is important. Men who are raised to not have emotions don’t have this. Having meaningful, close relationships and friendships are important. Women tend to dominate this area of life. Raising and emotionally supporting children is important and often very rewarding, yet there are people who would discourage men from this by saying that it’s “women’s work.”… Read more »
Not disagreeing with your premise, but your posts (overall, not just this one) leads me to believe you think of emotional expression as a social construct and not (at least strongly influenced by the) biological. I would ask you to read this article with that question in mind
https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/sir-can-you-help-me-with-this/
Fuck the boardroom. When women make up 50% of the on job deaths and injuries, when they make up half the sanitation workers, ditch diggers and other shitty jobs that women wouldn’t touch with a fifty foot pole (where’s your quotas there?) Then will I start to give a crap how many female CEOs there are.
If those jobs are municipal jobs, they are compensated very reasonably…so men should be so lucky to have them. To do those type of jobs, which require a lot of muscle power, women would have to hit the gym and build up muscle mass, lift weights and keep up this regiment in order to be on par with men; while men innately have this advantage over women. Should women down the road take over these “shitty” jobs, I doubt the complaining would stop. I could see the complaining turn into: “the women/feminists stole our jobs!” Wow, sounds familiar to the… Read more »
And yet, these very idea’s are unacceptable when we try to use them to point out the reasons for (and thus the absence of actual discrimination in) the alleged gender wag gap.
“Bigotry never ceases to amaze me.” What surprises me is just how many feminists are bigoted. Bigotry can be very subtle and not stand out very well, even those who partake in gender studies, are university educated can still be very bigoted on certain issues and even blind to their own bigotry. By the way, I’ve seen plenty of women now doing those hard labour jobs, no where near as many men but there are some women who are quite strong. Stop treating women like they’re absolutely useless and weak, there aren’t too many jobs where you need more strength… Read more »
The reason for a Men’s movement is so they can accept new roles in a society of equals without feeling they have had something taken from them. When feminism asked for a change in the social and gender roles of women (again, rightfully so), we had no movement to help men adjust to this change without feeling that they lost their manhood. The Men’s movement I was proposing would have been one that would outline how men could give up the control they had in the name of equality while not losing their identity as men, or without being seen… Read more »
“Men are not put upon in society, never have been, any where in the world.”
Someone clearly doesn’t know history. Just one word can easily dismiss your claim, Conscription.
Are women contributing to the demise of men? What a title. Men? No. Gender roles? Maybe so. I’d say men and women both are in the midst of a sea of economic change, social change and cultural flux which affects how gender roles form and continue. Do we want a world where women can be CEOs and men can be stay at home dads and both partners actually be ok with trading off breadwinning and nurturing? Do we want a world where both partners can be nurturing/challenging in different ways, some of which may not look “traditional?” Are we ready… Read more »
That’s great parenting 🙂 You want to teach a kid to buck gender trends, you have to lead by example.
The idea that childbirth has been used to exclude men from society is not new. Joseph Campbell has gone in length about how in ancient humans saw the child coming from woman and as part of the woman, while the father/man is an alien in the process. If anything I think the problem really is that when feminism started to redefine the role of women to give them more and equal standing to men (not a bad thing), we forgot to begin a complimentary “masculinism” movement to redefine the role of men in a way to support this equal standing… Read more »
I agree that there has been no men’s movement to correspond with the women’s movement. And I agree that it has done society a disservice. But I disagree with people who feel that that’s feminism’s fault (not sure if that’s your stance or not). Women struggled on their own, without support, for years before it was even remotely accepted that a woman should be allowed to have a career or an equal voice. What guidance did they have? Men are strong, too. If they want to redefine their roles to focus more on nurturing and parenthood, they’re capable of that.… Read more »
And you see how people react to sites like this and others where men are working to redefine roles and challenege the system. Even self proclaimed “progressives” Flip The Fuck Out at the idea that a man wants something different, something better. Either they Flip The Fuck Out at you or they ignore you (until you do something that might be considered wrong and all of a sudden they acknowledge your existence). At best I think the mentality of “its feminism’s fault” comes from the claim that feminism is the one movement that is working for equality for all people… Read more »
“At best I think the mentality of “its feminism’s fault” comes from the claim that feminism is the one movement that is working for equality for all people but time and again many of the members that make that claim don’t just fail to live up to it but actively do/say things that are actually counterproductive to that claim.” Exactly, I don’t know how many times I’ve been told that feminism is the solution to men’s issues. Hell, Amanda Marcotte has a rather insulting article making that very claim on this site somewhere. I posted a response to it (ether… Read more »
I seriously don’t know how you can make the leap from one article saying that a “feminist” attitude can benefit men to all feminists saying that feminism is the only thing that can do any good.
As Danny was pointing out earlier, there are very few issues that impact only one gender. I happen to think that a lot of men’s issues would benefit women, too. The position that some issues that are considered “feminist” could benefit men does not indicate that men are incapable, but rather indicates how interconnected we all are.
I happen to think that a lot of men’s issues would benefit women, too. The position that some issues that are considered “feminist” could benefit men does not indicate that men are incapable, but rather indicates how interconnected we all are. But what I think Mark is talking about is how some feminists take this thought and instead of promoting “hey let’s all work together no matter how you identify” they promote “hey we are the solution so if you don’t align with us then you’re a part of the problem”. Its pretty hard to take a movement seriously when… Read more »
“But what I think Mark is talking about is how some feminists take this thought and instead of promoting “hey let’s all work together no matter how you identify” they promote “hey we are the solution so if you don’t align with us then you’re a part of the problem”.” That is pretty much it. Marcotte’s article here, and Allred (link bellow) both demonstrate this very well. “I remember a while back when the comedian Margaret Cho made the comment, “If you’re not a feminist then you should just fucking kill yourself.” Now I’m sure a lot of people tell… Read more »
“I seriously don’t know how you can make the leap from one article saying that a “feminist” attitude can benefit men to all feminists saying that feminism is the only thing that can do any good.” Hyperbole and misrepresentation. I never made the leap from just one article, I have experienced it at the very least on a weekly basis, Marcotes article is just a single example that can be found on this very site. The fact such an article can be found on a men’s site so easily only shows how prevelent it is. Second, your attaching “all” to… Read more »
I did not intend to criticize feminism. Please don’t read my comments as such. Feminism was and is a necessary dialog for society to continue having. The fault I intended to show was the failure of society to balance the dialog by discussing and creating a guide for the new role of men in this new world of equality. I am sorry if what I said caused confusion on that point.
No worries, Zack. I wasn’t sure what you meant, but that clears it right up.
While the idea that traditional family roles in functional families, maybe a passive-aggressive assertion that women are somehow superior is intriguing, as with any generalization this idea cannot be applied across the board. Additionally I see no empirical data to support the assertion. Families work out roles that suit them. These roles are worked out between couples prior to marriage and children. These roles are continually redefined as the strengths and weakness of each of the individuals are assessed. The overall goal is of course the well-being of the children. When this is kept a top priority, the family remains… Read more »
I think that the biggest hurdle that we’re going to have to get over is this constant message that the differences between men and women are biological and unchangeable. The people who believe that men are not natural parents believe this way because, historically, women have been the child care providers. But, rather than look back and say “This social construct has been around for a while” they think “This is the way it’s always been because it’s the only way it’s capable of being.” Men are capable of being nurturers, but they don’t get the support that they need… Read more »
Which, in turn, points to a certain level of hypocrisy when some of those same women rail against ‘the way things have always been” when it doesn’t work in their favor.
I completely disagree. It’s not hypocrisy at all. It stems from the fact that women have made more progress in breaking away from past traditions than men have. The more men recognize the stereotypes that hold them back, the more they too will complain about “the way things have been.” Right now, the majority of the push back that is happening comes from women and concerns women’s issues, but that won’t always be the case. Maybe, one day in the future, men and women can look back and rail together.
It stems from the fact that women have made more progress in breaking away from past traditions than men have.
yes and it was the ‘new woman’/feminists who led the charge. so why did feminists and more broadly women, also not ‘feminise’ the/their boys with the same fever and zeal with which they ‘masculinised’ the/their girls over the last 50 yrs?
feminists say that women do the lionsshare of the childrearing, so why has this not happened.
I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again: social change is not a responsibility that should fall only to feminists. Men are part of this world, too, and they should be expected to make the some positive changes that are needed. Women cannot change the whole world completely on their own – male participation is required. And, I hope that you remember, “genderless” child rearing did, in fact, begin with feminists. It has not caught on in any meaningful way, but it’s not for lack of trying. And, some of the best, most well-rounded people that i know come… Read more »
I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again: social change is not a responsibility that should fall only to feminists. Men are part of this world, too, and they should be expected to make the some positive changes that are needed. Women cannot change the whole world completely on their own – male participation is required. So why do so many of them act like they are the only ones that are making those positive changes or disregard men that are making positive changes solely because they are not scrambling to identify as feminist? We’re participating, they just don’t… Read more »
“So why do so many of them act like they are the only ones that are making those positive changes or disregard men that are making positive changes solely because they are not scrambling to identify as feminist?” I can’t answer your question because I don’t know who “they” are. If you feel that you are being treated unfairly, then you have an issue with those people – not with feminists as a whole. There are plenty of people who identify with a group (“feminist”, “Christian”, etc.) that may not actually accurately represent the feelings of other people who also… Read more »
I can’t answer your question because I don’t know who “they” are. Not surprising. If you feel that you are being treated unfairly, then you have an issue with those people – not with feminists as a whole. Its a bit more than that. I not only have an issue with those feminists (I love that switch you pulled, almost didn’t notice it) but I also have a problem with the ideas they carry and the fact that even those who also identify under that label but don’t share that negative sentiment tend to either not know such negative sentiments… Read more »
I’m perfectly aware that not every feminist is the same – that’s why I’ve been pointing it out. There are “feminists” that make me hesitant to self-identify with the label, but there are also those that are more like me. Some of the most intense disagreements that I’ve had have been with other “feminists.” I’m not sure why you get the impression that feminists don’t criticize one another, but that just hasn’t been the case in my experience. The fastest, best change usually comes from within a group, so I feel that disagreements within a group are absolutely necessary for… Read more »
.” I’m not sure why you get the impression that feminists don’t criticize one another, but that just hasn’t been the case in my experience. Oh I’ve seen that happen. And it usually doesn’t end well for them either as I have seen. But again they are the exception. The fastest, best change usually comes from within a group, so I feel that disagreements within a group are absolutely necessary for any type of progress. I can agree with that. But speaking as an outsider looking in it seems a lot of them either don’t want progress, have some messed… Read more »
“social change is not a responsibility that should fall only to feminists.” Except many feminists are demanding it does. They subsume any other civil movement under the claim that feminism is about equality for all, and if a group or individual resists this usurping of their cause, or becomes critical of feminism, they are demonized into obscurity as the MRM has been. So, as long as feminism wants to claim to be about equality for all, and oppose allowing any other voice to the table, your da,m right they are responsable for ether making those social changes, or stepping aside… Read more »
“Except many feminists are demanding it does.” Once again, I feel like people here at the GMP are generalizing just a bit too much. I have literally never heard any woman, feminist or otherwise, demand to do all of work to change society. Don’t confuse people being opposed to certain changes with people being opposed to someone else making changes. There are some MRM issues that I, personally, agree with. There are others that I feel are not grounded in equality at all. But the tone that I’ve seen it’s members use, particularly on these message boards, is not the… Read more »
“Once again, I feel like people here at the GMP are generalizing just a bit too much.” And I feel you attempt to dismiss too many arguments you don’t like simply by deflecting with the “you’re generalizing too much. ” I have literally never heard any woman, feminist or otherwise, demand to do all of work to change society.” First of all, again, you are switching the terms feminist and woman, as if they were synonomous. Please stop that, as it is exceptionally dishonest. Feminism is an ideology who’s followers consist of both men and women, but does not include… Read more »
I don’t think that you understand context. Look at the title of this article. It’s “Are Women contributing to the demise of men?”. The entire discussion is about women’s (not feminists’) role in men’s lives. We’re not just talking about feminists here. Maybe you are, but that hasn’t been the conversation thus far, as far as I know. There have been references to ideology that is typically “feminist”, but has trickled down to the main stream, which includes most women. The article discusses issues that a society-wide, not just those where one partner identifies as feminist.
Boys are five times as likely to be diagnosed with ADHD. I’d be interested in knowing how many really have it and how many are being drugged into the behavior a predominantly female institution–el ed–finds convenient. I used to push my kids around on their hands while I held their legs, the wheelbarrow, for upper body strength. Even got them going upstairs. Tried that with a friend’s kid, a boy, who didn’t get the message. Tried to convince him. Faceplant. Dad was not in that household. Ditto the kid I swung over my shoulder as my kids liked and who… Read more »
Some kids love roughhousing. Some don’t. Girls like roughhousing too and in many cases I’m the parent who is the rough houser. I was always the kid in a tree when I was growing up. It’s not necessarily gender specific.
That being said, ADHD? I don’t think drugs are the answer. I was mostly like ADD as a child. I’m certainly so now. I use my brain and skills in the way best for my type. My son is diagosed ADHD but we don’t place him drugs, we find other ways for him to learn.
As an adult who has ADD, and ADHD as a child I personally found the medication to be a MAJOR boost to my lifestyle, dexamphetamine is what worked for me and it had a lifechanging effect on my ability to focus and concentrate. I did more work and finished more in 1 month on them than I did in years without them. I think the drugs are very useful for some and I wouldn’t rule them out, try other methods first but if they don’t have enough of an affect I’d suggest the drug route due to it’s effects on… Read more »
Abuse of Ritalin by feminist schools to “fix” boys for the “crime” of behaving like boys is one of the top items on the agenda of the Men’s Rights Movement (item #8 in a recent poll featured on TGMP). When our descendants look back at this practice, they will be bewildered that a supposedly “civilized” nation forced 1 in every 5 boys to take dangerous psychotropic drugs to suppress normal boy behaviour (boys who refuse are denied access to public education). It is a terrible shame upon us all. By the way, the practice of forced administration of Amphetamine and… Read more »
Just don’t go overboard and have the genuine cases that can benefit from stimulant medication for ADD/ADHD be harmed because of an overzealous approach. There are many people who use those drugs for treating their ADD/ADHD and have major benefits from them.
The use of the medication is not the problem. The problem is when officials FORCE students to take dangerous psychotropic medications as a pre-condition of attending public school.
In other words, only parents should make this decision, with the advice of their doctors.
Another way of saying the same thing is: When 4.8 million students have a “behavioural problem” that is serious enough that school officials can’t handle them unless they are medicated, the real problem is with the school, not the students.
Oh wow, that’s messed up. I don’t think we have that in Australia? Sounds like the schools are being lazy and not really addressing the problems.
AZ says: “Abuse of Ritalin by feminist schools to “fix” boys for the “crime” of behaving like boys is one of the top items on the agenda of the Men’s Rights Movement (item #8 in a recent poll featured on TGMP). When our descendants look back at this practice, they will be bewildered that a supposedly “civilized” nation forced 1 in every 5 boys to take dangerous psychotropic drugs” While taking away recess no less due to litigation concerns if a child is injured. The amount of leeway we allow greedy people to sue over bs issues to ring the… Read more »
I think the most damage in the childcare area is done by the underlying assumption that mothers are necessary and fathers are optional–and then only in terms of financial support. Faced with such indifference and rejection, is it any wonder that so many men are opting out of fatherhood, or refusing to even get involved with it in the first place?