Mark Greene notes the horrific story of the Afghan child bride who has become the face of women’s rights in Afghanistan, and wonders how much progress we’ve really made in women’s rights.
For those who say that women now have social and political equality, I would like to offer the following story from the Associated Press. It begs the question. Which women are we talking about?
The AP reported, “KABUL, Afghanistan — The in-laws of a child bride who became the bruised and bloodied face of women’s rights in Afghanistan have been sentenced to 10 years in prison for torture, abuse and human rights violations, a judge said Saturday.
The plight of 15-year-old Sahar Gul captivated the nation and set off a storm of international condemnation when it came to light in late December. Officials said her husband’s family kept her in a basement for six months after her arranged marriage, ripping out her fingernails, breaking her fingers and torturing her with hot irons in an attempt to force her into prostitution.”
To see the story on the Huffington Post go here. WARNING: GRAPHIC PHOTOS.
Some questions:
1) How does the treatment of women worldwide inform our American conversation about women’s rights?
2) How does the multi-billion dollar prostitution black market affect women both here and abroad?
3) Is the battle for women’s rights successfully completed or only just beginning?
4) Does the discussion of women’s rights in some way detract from the battle for men’s rights?
My apologies to the moderators … my post regarding the elimination of my previous response was inaccurate …. Sorry for my jumping to conclusions
I’m glad that’s the case. Not moderating this week and so was clueless.
Hello Everyone,
Just letting everyone know that we’re a couple moderators short this week. If your comment ends up in moderation for an extended period chances are that’s the reason. Please have patience. Thanks.
WOW, my response was not only moderated but eliminated. I guess I’m the only one that will know why because I am the only one that knows it’s content. Glad I cut and paste so I have the word document. All I can say is to the moderators that I am shocked and you know why. Please moderators, please contact me and let me know what was so offensive? Thank you.
1) How does the treatment of women worldwide inform our American conversation about women’s rights? Mostly it does not! The racial, cultural and linguistic barriers are far too high for any rational conversation – or any form of dialogue! 1 case in Afganistan – and what is the body count in Uganda/Rwanda/Congo? DRC has a population 200% of Afganistan – Uganda has parity! Add all the the countries affected by the ongoing war in Central Africa and you have a 400% larger population to look at! What’s the issue? No CNN/FOX reporters embedded with US Military? Is it that the… Read more »
“2) How does the multi-billion dollar prostitution black market affect women both here and abroad?
Yes – but what does it have to do with the overall story? The question is a non sequitur.”
The girl’s inlaws we’re trying to force her into prostitution.
Thanks for some great comments, by the way.
Hmmmmm! – How many children are forced into prostitution and sexual slavery each year in Afghanistan ? Ever heard of the Bacha bazi? Afghanistan sees rise in ‘dancing boys’ exploitation – By Ernesto Londoño, Published: April 5 Washington Post. DEHRAZI, Afghanistan — The 9-year-old boy with pale skin and big, piercing eyes captivated Mirzahan at first sight. “He is more handsome than anyone in the village,” the 22-year-old farmer said, explaining why he is grooming the boy as a sexual partner and companion. There was another important factor that made Waheed easy to take on as a bacha bazi, or… Read more »
Media Hound.
“It’s easy to ask questions! It’s harder to ask the RIGHT Questions! P^)”
Asking about women and prostitution can not possibly be, in and of itself, a wrong question. Its only one of the questions. P^)
How do we broaden the discussion to include boys and men without first dismissing the story of girls and women as “hyped up”? All we do is argue about the primacy of one gender or another. It’s weirdly binary, when, if we took gender out of the equation, we would all agree that the hardships of poverty, prostitution, etc. should end.
How do we broaden the discussion to include boys and men without first dismissing the story of girls and women as “hyped up”? The first obstacle to broadening the discission is the very fact that the stories of men and boys have been dismissed in large part because the stories of women and girls has indeed been hyped up. Quote marks or not it is true. When it came to helping girls and women in education people had no problem talking about how a part of the reason they needed help in the first place was because a lot of… Read more »
I see a lot in the phrase “hyped up” that implies purposeful ill will toward men. I agree that in some quarters it was that. But on the whole, I think our cultural history, the steps we took to get here, made ignoring boys and men as victims a likely outcome. And only now are we able to view this other and equal half of the equation as of equal importance. This living generation of men, from the 1920s on, spent decades strutting around expressing our experiences as some version of angry or macho, there was absolutely no space to… Read more »
I see a lot in the phrase “hyped up” that implies purposeful ill will toward men. I agree that in some quarters it was that. But on the whole, I think our cultural history, the steps we took to get here, made ignoring boys and men as victims a likely outcome. While that is the case that does not explain how so called progressives, who are supposedly beyond this, still manage to engage in this behavior, many while claiming to be against it. But we are now able to publicly claim how we have been damaged by either men or… Read more »
Mark. Asking the right questions comes from acknowledging that 1) the questions exist 2) has a reason to be asked 3) has validity. I wonder what reaction comes if you change just one word – “Asking about men and prostitution can not possibly be, in and of itself, a wrong question. Its only one of the questions.” Now how does that read? Is it men as prostitutes – or men as clients/users of prostitutes? I jut changed one word and preserved the sense of what you communicated – but does it survive the change of just one word and carry… Read more »
Oh and for the record; DynCorp International – We Serve Today For a Better Tomorrow DynCorp International, a major government security contractor, is strengthening its ethics practices in the wake of government investigations of its programs in Afghanistan and other conflict zones. One effort to train Afghan civilian police has drawn attention from the State Department’s inspector general following incidents of questionable management oversight, including one instance in which expatriate DynCorp employees in Afghanistan hired a teenage boy to perform a tribal dance at a company farewell party and videotaped the event. Washington Post July 27, 2009 Bold Added. Guardian… Read more »
“4) Does the discussion of women’s rights in some way detract from the battle for men’s rights?” It does when it ignores men’s rights int the same context. When we discuss the plight of women raped by tribes in Somalia and ignore the fact is is part of a campaign of terror that includes slaughtering (and raping) the men. When we see a bus with the slogan “Stop the violence against women and children” it does. The implication that a) it is only men perpetrating the violence and b) even if it was that violence against men is therefor acceptable… Read more »
“Does the discussion of women’s rights in some way detract from the battle for men’s rights?”
It does often enough that a blog was set up specifically called “What About The Menz” in mimicry of a familiar silencing device used by feminsts on men trying to discuss men’s issues. You might ask Noah about it.
The region of the world this story emanates from has seen more invasions than just about anywhere else. And invaders have typically wanted to plant their seeds, so to speak, in the native females.Often enough, the native females have wanted them planted. It is a sensitive subject; and has been since the time of Alexander the Great. Religion aside, the default way of thinking in those places about the appearance of un-invited outsiders is that they are there to steal or seduce their women. And surely one way they would do that is to educate girls to prefer a different… Read more »
I had 1 article about society’s toleration of violence on men in media as comedy turned down. I seriously doubt that one on female violence would be approved.
Also, crime data shows that violence by women is climbing at a very fast clip (especially among teen girls) at a time when boys violence is actually falling.
Show me that data on female violence. If its straightforward, I’ll post about it.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5519a3.htm 8.9% of males and 8.8% of females report IPV in the last 12 months. Data seems to fluctuate a bit, if you read stats on sexual assault keep in mind that envelopment/forced to penetrate is often left out of the definition for rape so it can heavily favour females as victims of rape since the majority of male victims suffer envelopment and aren’t included. I’ve noticed in the statistics reported that females overall are either committing more violence towards men in all age ranges, or men are committing less so the numbers are starting to reach parity. I wanna… Read more »
Just to add to Archy’s data.
Here is a historic record of DV stats, its been known that women are violent as men since the 1970s, but the data has been suppressed.
http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/V75-Straus-09.pdf
Here is a paper on the methods that are used
http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/V74-gender-symmetry-with-gramham-Kevan-Method%208-.pdf
Actually John D,
Have you considered writing an article on this question? Are women getting more violent? Might be a good way to air the data on violence by women in relationships. That’s where most women commit violence. I mean why bury what would be an interesting discussion at the end of this article? If you don’t want to, can I?
How about this:
Is violence *by* women getting worse?
ht tp://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2318229/posts
A Kuwaiti ex-wife set fire to the women and girls tent at her exes new wedding killing 42 women and children. This has been totted as the most violent DV incident ever.
I don’t have agenda. I just want to post this question to have a discussion and air out people’s biases.
Is violence by women getting worse?
I seem to recall a rather deafening silence on this story. The only way a man can kill 42 people like that and the story not make headlines is if he didn’t get caught (even though I think if such a body count was known and there was a suspect I think the resulting manhunt would get more attention than this did). But to answer your question I’d say that this one case would not be enough to say yes to it one way or another. However if you were to add it to other cases of women commiting violence.… Read more »
ht tp://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/myths-of-the-manosphere-lying-about-women
I found this on it, was there another? and lol @ them stating the CDC stats when the cdc stats show in a 12 month period sexual abuse was pretty much equal numbers.
As far as question #4: 4) Does the discussion of women’s rights in some way detract from the battle for men’s rights? I would say that depends on technique. For instance. The middle east is a high-conflict area. Even in this area men are far more likely to be killed and tortured than are women. If the preponderance of the stories coming out of these types of repressive areas talk about exclusively women, this leads outsiders to the opinion that only women are being killed and tortured (which is untrue), and will lead to more help for women even though… Read more »
Fun fact: you’re as likely to die from violent circumstances in the US as many Near East countries. I’m on my phone now or I’d link the stats. That’s not directly related, but you mentioned the Near East being a cinflict zone and I thought I’d just comment on that.
Hi Heather,
That seems like a rather astonishing figure. In layman’s terms I would say that this stat does not pass the “sniff test”, but then what the heck do I know?
I’d love to see the details on those figures.
Heather, early in the Iraq War someone ran the numbers and found that a young balck man was safer in Baghdad than in Washington DC, IEDs and all.
I don’t have those figures either, but I’ve often wondered about the whole idea that “The Middle East” is an especially violent place compared with anywhere else. If you only count some forms of violence, sure, but if you include things like the murder rate, I’m guessing that North America is technically just as “violent” a region (maybe more so) than the Middle East. I also doubt the Middle East is inherently “unstable” compared to the rest of the world. It could be true, but I would like to see a logical explanation of that conclusion, in real comparison to… Read more »
Ah now that I’m at my computer: http://violentdeathproject.com/
That’s the link. Now, I’m not exactly sure how accurate it is. At the very least it’s all very transparent where the data is coming from and what data is being included. Anyway, assuming it is accurate, it’s really interesting.
Unfortunately it’s also a year old, so the stats for a couple of places could be a bit off.
Is Brutality Against Women Getting Worse? I think what’s getting people all a flutter is that you are asking this question and then presenting a single story as if to say “yes it is getting worse”. You may have been trying to go for something to the effect of showing that stuff like this happening shows how brutality against women is deeply ingrained and then say since it is deeply ingrained then yes it is? I’ve seen a few times women’s advocates talk about how wrong it is when angry MRAs bring up a single story of female against male… Read more »
It’s quite remarkable to me how much baggage people bring to this question: Is Brutality Against Women Getting Worse? Some condemn the question out right. As if that question is, in itself, not to be allowed in our public discourse. If extremists in the past have hijacked the dialogue and pulled to much focus to women, then this seems like a good place to speak to that as some have done quite eloquently. But people who seek to define what questions can or can not be posed based on unfounded suppositions regarding the writer’s motives are not contributing anything to… Read more »
Mark, Firstly you define what I see as *debatably* valid criticism as denial of your right to pontificate about whatever you want. It’s not. Secondly, I think what people are responding to is that your article falls in line with a deluge of “muslim countries oppress women” (the un-spoken implication is that they oppress *ONLY* women). This single-minded doggedness of defining the harm of extremist muslim as a narrative that involves only or primarily women’s suffering from these cultures downplays and minimizes what these cultures do to men too. I remember 4 or 5 years ago a story that became… Read more »
All good points, John.
@Danny “I’ve seen a few times women’s advocates talk about how wrong it is when angry MRAs bring up a single story of female against male violence and try to claim that that one story proves that female againt male violence happens as much as male against female violence. ” ht tp://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/misogyny-the-sites The SPLC has something on their site about this: “MensActivism This website tracks news and information about men’s issues from around the world, with a focus on activism — and outrage. Par for the course are lurid headlines like this one: “Pakistani wife kills, cooks husband for lusting… Read more »
Here’s me the literalist again. To my mind, the “hijacking discussion” metaphor doesn’t really fit a situation like the GMP blog. Hijacking implies that there is a pilot in charge and a preset course where the plane (discussion) is supposed to go, and someone has taken over control who is not supposed to have control. Saying that someone is hijacking discussion is saying that person has taken control of discussion and taken everyone else onto the wrong heading. In reality, though, that is not really possible, is it? If this is a hijacking, everyone on board can just ignore the… Read more »
“Who makes the most hiring decisions?”
Women. There are more women managers than men managers today. Further, over 90% of HR Direvtors and VP’s are women. So, women hold a great deal of power in hiring, firing, laying off, AND compensation. So, if companies are discriminating against women by paying them less for the same quality and quantity of work, most likely a woman made that decision.
Hey Eric. I was wondering if you had links or books or studies you can point to about the two factoids you mentioned (women being the majority of managers and 90% of HR directors/VP’s being women). It’s not that I doubt you, but if I were ever to mention that, I would like to have proof to substantiate the claim. Another point to make is that, since 90% of HR directors are women, this would also put power into these women’s hands in terms of any internal discrimination/sexual harrassment investigation companies do. It has already been proven that female teachers… Read more »
John, the correct figure is >70% of HR Managers, per the US Bureau of Labor Statistics. I can’t get to the exact link since I’m at work but it’s based on their 2007 data.
“1) How does the treatment of women worldwide inform our American conversation about women’s rights?” Depends how it is covered. For example, in this particular case, where, as Eric pointed out, the victimization of the women was wholely condemned and punished, it should show that women’s safety is taken seriously, even if not every single instance of it can be prevented before it happens. Of course, when such events are sensationalized, the outraged public and political reactions ignored, all in favor of trying to paint the fact something happened to a woman that was unpleasent as representative of everyones attitudes… Read more »
How we view violence against women in the west from the perspective of one headline. YES, I agree this is just one example. BUT IMHO, it shows just how the media will report this type of ‘crime’ http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/08/british-woman-arrested-dubai Notice the headline “British woman arrested in Dubai after reporting rape” First, yes, the headline is TRUE, but it also leads one to believe she was arrested for being raped, when in fact she wasn’t. She was arrested when the authorities found out she had sex outside of marriage , and just for good measure her fiance was also arrested for the… Read more »
“4) Does the discussion of women’s rights in some way detract from the battle for men’s rights?” When the few spaces men have to discuss issues that concern men, have matters of women’s rights raised instead, then yes the discussion of women’s rights detracts from the discussion of men’s rights. It creates a dialogue where the concerns of men are related to women and their comparative situation. I’d like dialogue about men, by men, for men, that only concerns men. It would be a refreshing change. Unless men are only defined by our relationship with women, which I do not… Read more »
Transhuman: You hit another one out of the ballpark.
Transhuman: Just read your post and something kept ‘bugging’ me about it.
I read this line
“It creates a dialogue where the concerns of men are related to women and their comparative situation”
Something about that sentence IN MY MIND kept wondering if something was missing. Then it hit me on how I feel about this
“It creates a dialogue where the concerns of men are ONLY related to women and their comparative situation”
That is what bothers me most about this site and a large number of their articles.
Hi John, I’m the publisher of The Good Men Project and what I hear you saying you are saying is that you are bothered with the way we talk about things here. First, I’d like to remind you that The Good Men Project is a community driven site. If a “large number of articles” are not to your liking, there are actually two things you can do. 1) Write your own post that we will run. or 2) Build a platform yourself that reaches 4 million people from scratch. We started from 0 also, less than two years ago, with… Read more »
@John Gottman and Transhuman … yup.
No offense to any of the women who have written some great articles but my initial attraction to this site was that it appeared to be a site for men by men. Although it does tackle and address some men’s issues, there appears to be an agenda that I haven’t quite been able to put my finger on. Mark has written some interesting articles yet this particular article is clearly concentrating on “women’s rights.” 1,2,3, and 4 is about “women’s rights” around the world much less.
Transhuman, are those my only two choices? 1) Talk about men only among men only or 2) be defined by my relationship with women? Seems self defeating to frame this conversation about being a man in these kinds of binary ways.
It’s not a zero-sum game. If we talk about issues surrounding women, that does nothing to diminish the issues we write about that are exclusively about men, for instance right now on the Good Feed Blog there is a post about Mariano Rivera and another about NFL and head injuries. Then there are three gender-neutral posts (international elections, the ballot issue in SC, and the science behind storytelling). If you don’t want to talk about women’s issues, just go ahead and don’t read those. If it says “women” in the title, feel free to ignore it, and spend some time… Read more »
Joanna, I think the issue is that Mark’s column falls in line with a very large narrative in western media outlets that basically says extreme muslim culture = oppression of (only or mostly) women. This is wrong. These cultures oppress *everybody* not just (or mostly) women. This leads to a distorted view of what is happening, which will lead to a distorting funding of the problem. I could see this ultimately leading to something very similar to human aids anti-rape organizations turning away prisoners of war in Africa who were victims of male on male rape and minimizing the issue… Read more »
Let me know if you find that place. I would like to spend some time there.
Dang it. Once again the title of the article doesn’t match the content, but once again I fell for it. It hooked me and I read the article waiting for that question to appear, but it didn’t. I don’t like the disconnect, but I have to admit that the editorial policy towards headlines is working, so I don’t know why one would ever give it up. Regardless, I’ll address the titular question anyway. There is clearly ongoing brutality against women. But, how would you ever determine if it was getting _worse_ out there in the world? You know, we could… Read more »
1) I do not think we can treat people from different countries and cultures as homogeneous. Each group has different experiences that happen for different reasons, and we need to acknowledge that. 2) Firstly, prostitution does not just affect women. Countless boys and men are part of that multi-billion dollar prostitution black market, both in the States and abroad, and their experiences are just as horrific and deserving of recognition. Secondly, much of this comes down to a lack of resources, a lack of local support for stopping these crimes, and a lack of punishment for those who commit such… Read more »
Very well stated. Thanks for adding to the conversation. I agree with a lot of what you’re saying.
Here is a multi nation study onto patterns of DV, in case anyone that’s interested.
The patterns were the same in western and Muslim countries, female partner more often dominant and more often physically violent.
http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/ID41E2.pdf
edit – I should have mentioned the rates, the rates of DV are the same too.
There is no evidence that I know of, that Muslims are more likely to engage in DV. I lived in a Muslim country and have citizenship there, and some of the things people tend to believe about muslim culture irk me.
“Let me help you “see”, Mark. If men are disproportionately the ones killed and brutalized in Afghanistan and similar places (which are the facts, according to reports we get here in the west), then focusing on the group that is least brutalized obviously does elevate them above the group which is suffering the most.”
I guess my question is this. How do we quantify “focus disproportionately?”
Is any mention of women’s rights already too much by virtue of the discussions thus far? Do I need to get permission somehow to mention women’s rights? Who do I get permission from?
Mark
I think the issue might be more to do with propagating the myth that women as a group are more exposed to violence and brutality than the others – when the reality is its men and children that are most at risk.
“There is violence against women in the world.”
WHERE in that sentence does it say women are more exposed to violence than men?
You bring this subtext and you place it into my sentence. Literally. You open up my sentence and you put it in there. Then you point at it and say, “Look what I found.”
So what you are saying is that every single instance must be taken separately, uniquely, without context of any other story? For example, we can see in the video of the Egyptian woman in the blue bra, a man getting the beatdown right beside her. But we can not extrapolate from the fact there was outcry, rage and story after story about that poor poor women, but the man beside her never got a second glance, that says nothing because none of the individual stories on the issue specifically said something to dismiss him, they just acted like he didn’t… Read more »
Is any mention of women’s rights already too much by virtue of the discussions thus far? Do I need to get permission somehow to mention women’s rights? Who do I get permission from? It should not be but to some people it is. And I think this is an extreme reaction to feeling the reverse. Not to stoke old flames but there are those that seeom to think that in order to talk about men’s rights and issues one must get permission from women’s activists. Or even more interesting some hold the opinion that the only way a valid men’s… Read more »
Thanks, Danny.
I feel like I keep stating the obvious. Here, you’re in essence asking the meaning of the term disproportionate.
If the vast majority of victims of brutality (in Afghanistan, in this case) are male but 100% of the concern over victims, based on gender, are female, that’s disproportionate. 100% of the focus goes on a minority of victims and 0% of the focus on the majority of victims. That, by definition, is disproportionate.
You can do whatever you want. No peisdipn needed. You can focus 100% of your attention on 1% if you want, but it’s still disproportionate.
“If the vast majority of victims of brutality (in Afghanistan, in this case) are male but 100% of the concern over victims, based on gender, are female, that’s disproportionate.”
100% of the concern is over women? Really. You can read my mind? Because if, for some bizarre reason, I happen to give a damn about boys and men dying in Afghanistan, then you’ll have to revise your stats to 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999%
This kind of hyperbole does no one any good.
I make no claim to know anyone’s thoughts. But, I can read. You expressed no concern at all here. Although you had every opportunity to at least mention it in one sentence.
You have no obligation to have or express any concern. I’m just pointing out that none is expressed here.
I gotta put this out there …. Given how I have seen Christians blasted because of their beliefs and perceived opinions of women’s roles in society and the family … 99% of Afghanians are Muslim, I guess I have to wonder why the Muslim faith isn’t being questioned. The reality is that the women who are being abused are abused (as some see it) based on their religious beliefs. It should also be noted that the Muslim faith is the fastest growing religion in the USA. Where does that put us in 50 years?
Tom. There is no evidence that Muslims abuse women any more or less than Christians or Hindus or any other religion does. None. If its happening in Afghanistan its because the place is just brutal for everybody. A better question would be: are Muslims brutalizing people in Western Democracies? All evidence is that they are being victimized, profiled and harassed. Not the other way around.
I know a lot of Muslims personally. Both here and abroad. They are wonderful parents and wonderful people. Seriously, if you knew the folks I know, you’d admire them as much as I do.
You forgot atheists. Their track record is no better.
I’m curious Mark, given your above comment questioning why we would want to parse out men’s and women’s issues by world region, in specific, this comment:
“What interests me is why do some people want to keep the discussion of men’s and women’s right parsed out ONLY that particular way.”
One must likewise wonder why you feel the need to parse out the religious issue in relation to world regions? Perhaps you can answer your own question.
Here’s my feeling, Tom B. It sounds to me like you’re saying that when one person questions the act of one particular Muslim family’s violence, he is saying that all Muslim families are like this. But not once did Mark Greene say that. He asked about worldwide violence against women. My gut feeling, Tom, is that you believe that Muslims are violent, and that you fear for America because of our willingness to admit Muslim people. I suspect you have found this hypothetical situation you propose here to be a great way to get other people to get on board… Read more »
1) How does the treatment of women worldwide inform our American conversation about women’s rights? It really doesn’t. There are too many variables. Women do not have equal rights in some countries, such as Saudi Arabia, but they have superior rights in Europe and North American. 2) How does the multi-billion dollar prostitution black market affect women both here and abroad? It has no effect on the vast majority of females here in the US but no doubt affects a statistically small subset. Abroad, many young girls are victimized, particularly parts of developing Asia. 3) Is the battle for women’s… Read more »
Its probably the same ratio as in other countries — most brutality is against men and women are relatively protected from it.
We need to move away from erasing the suffering of humans caused by human problems, by focusing on only that of women.
I think it’s difficult, if not impossible, to talk about 3.5 billion people as a single group with shared fortunes and misfortunes. The idea that a professional woman in a modern capitalist liberal democracy shares a collective socio-political identity, far less a collective experience with a trafficked child bride in Afghanistan strikes me as fundamentally bogus. According to various indices of development, globally, the status and welfare of women is going forward rapidly in a few places, crawling forward slowly in a lot of places and retreating badly in a few places. In any context, asking what one individual story… Read more »
Any statistical research will produce different results based on how the valid data is defined. If we stick to Western Democracies, of course we’ll arrive at a very different set of conclusions. What interests me is why do some people want to keep the discussion of men’s and women’s right parsed out ONLY that particular way. Because I find it quite easy to talk about 3.5 billion people as a group with shared fortunes. In fact, if we don’t start doing more of that we’re all screwed.
What happens in Afghanistan doesn’t affect me but an issue like domestic violence in Australia does. People are probably always going to be most worried about their own life, health, etc which is neccessary but hopefully they can extend some support to other areas too. Would you spend most of your resources on some random country far away or your own country? Wouldn’t it be best to get your people up to standard and then sharing out the good will? Of course the great thing is that people can choose what to be an activist in and some will choose… Read more »
Ask any cop how many different cultures he runs into in a day. People who are bringing their cultural norms into American or Australian cities. Our borders and our belief systems are permeable.
Good point. But is it the majority, would it affect as many people as say a sexist law? I guess it all depends what grabs peoples attention the most, what is the biggest priority for them. Fathers/mothers rights in a persons own country for instance would be higher in priority then the same in another. It can also be we know western life better and thus feel more qualified to talk about it, I have no real idea on what it’s like in Afghanistan so I feel I can’t adequately discuss it in the power it needs. It’s kinda like… Read more »
That is true but they can’t bring in their laws. I would never suggest that people must adopt my culture (are you suggesting that?), as if we’re superior; however, the government does demand that they adhere to our local laws.
What I’m saying is this. Western culture is permeable. As people move about the world, they bring their belief systems for better or for worse. Often better. Sometimes worse.
They still can’t import their laws.
Not sure I understand what the law has to do with whether or not someone chooses to brutalize someone else. That law might take issue with it after the event occurs, but its culture that governs whether or not the abuser feels empowered/permission to throw a punch.
At the risk of stating the obvious, if there are no laws and associated penalties against “brutalizing someone” it’s ever so slightly more likely to happen.
I would suggest, at the risk of stating the obvious, that who your parents are will determine whether you result to brutality far more than whatever laws might apply. People who express rage through violence could give two s**ts about the law.
If they don’t care about the legal consequences,why do perpetrators try to avoid apprehension?
Why do such crimes occur less often when it can be seen and the perpetrators ID’d?
Why do such crimes skyrocket when law enforcement is not present?
Mark, the point is, a country with laws against brutalizing people should not be required to further strengthen those laws just because another country, whose immigrants sometimes come to this first country, doesn’t have such laws. And that is precisely what is promoted with sensationalist titles like this articles, combined with attitudes that all 3.5 billion women should be treated as if they have a shared experience.
You didn’t talk about 3.5 billion people as a shared group, you talked about one girl in Afghanistan and posed the question is brutality against women getting worse.
IMHO, that is intellectual dishonestly, and almost rises to the point of “Have you stopped beating your wife yet” type of question. You pose a question, relay a brutal story and I am sorry but you lead the reader to conclude that is in fact getting worse. Posing questions, putting a story about brutality out there and the stepping back and claiming that you didn’t state an opinion is not good form
Well John, in the spirit of fair play, I would suggest you can’t engage in a discussion without first painting your opponent as devious or having a hidden agenda. There are plenty of people here answering the questions and raising new ones without automatically going into a binary debate mode.
“why do some people want to keep the discussion of men’s and women’s right parsed out ONLY that particular way. Because I find it quite easy to talk about 3.5 billion people as a group with shared fortunes. In fact, if we don’t start doing more of that we’re all screwed.” For the same reason you don’t trim your hedges with a lawnmower. You can’t solve very different problems with the same tool. Similarly, you can’t address the issues that women in Afghanistant with the same solutions as the women in DC. The problems are very different. Trying to do… Read more »
“What interests me is why do some people want to keep the discussion of men’s and women’s right parsed out ONLY that particular way.” Because, I feel attempting to play off the tradgedy of a child in afganistan to try and ganrer yet more action in favor of women in a country where such policies as VAWA exist and are abused to such an extent is dangerous. Where does it end? If/when women make up 95% of CEO’s in US companies, will this still not be deemed enough because only 30% elsewhere in the world are? Should the policies of… Read more »
Wow…those are great questions that you ask, Mark…some of which have been subjects for some very interesting books: (1) Nicholas Kristof and Sheryl WuDunn discuss and answer some of Q#1 in “Half the Sky”… (2) Rache Lloyd tackles Q#2 in “Girls Like Us” (3) and (4) are touched on in Qanta Ahmed’s “In the Land of Invisible Women”….Dr. Ahmed probes the inside of Saudi society as a Muslim (although of Pakistani/British origins) and discovers that women, as well as men, are suffocated (each in their own way) in the Saudi world by the extreme religious police….she writes so beautifully about… Read more »
1, Can’t answer this properly, I live in Australia. I do see cases where SOME western women use certain areas as proof women have less rights (even western women) whilst the reality is all rights issues are on a per country basis since they all have their own law. There can be similarities but for example selective service doesn’t exist in Australia but it does in U.S.A so on that particular topic men in Australia have more freedom and equality with women however American men have less equality than American women. 2, Again I am in Australia but I do… Read more »
We have a lot of common ground here. Thanks for commenting.
No probs, these debates always tickle my curiosity. I wish I had access to a super database of deaths n crimes where I could search who is affected by what crime, what age group, race, hell even characteristics of their personality is more or less at risk. Humans are such a hugely complex system in this world but I find people want a simple “women/men suffer more” response when it’s more accurate to say “women of this age in this area suffer more, men of this age in this area etc suffer more”.