Joanna Schroeder thinks feminists should take another look at the Louis CK joke that pits feminists against comedy.
I love me some Louis CK.
And so do most of the feminists who’ve been calling-out Daniel Tosh for his rape “joke” at the Laugh Factory last week. Writers like Jennifer Pozner and Lindy West (and me!) used Louis CK clips to demonstrate the ways in which rape jokes can be done right. But CK’s appearance on The Daily Show Monday night has made some of these same writers question their allegiance to the masterful artist of comedy.
Here’s the thing, I don’t think CK’s joke about feminists was even remotely anti-feminism.
See, good comedy works best when it pokes at the truth with a little needle, as if it were a boil. It pokes and some pus comes out and sometimes that helps the healing. Daniel Tosh’s crappy rape joke failed because, as Jennifer Pozner explained in a brilliant break-down of the joke, it was lazy and simply un-funny.
However, the healing thing (the pus, if you will) that came out of Tosh’s boil of a joke was that we, as a society, have begun a conversation about one of the hardest things to talk earnestly about: Rape. We’re talking about rape culture, we’re talking about comedic boundaries, we’re talking about power and obedience, we’re talking about fear and making people feel afraid. I doubt the conversation was Tosh’s intent, but it has happened nonetheless.
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Monday night, in an appearance on Jon Stewart’s Daily Show, Louis CK talked about the Tosh controversy and called it, “a fight between comedians and feminists, who are natural enemies,” and explained that “stereotypically speaking, feminists can’t take a joke… and on the other side, comedians can’t take criticism. Comedians are big pussies.”
And many in the audience boo’ed. I would’ve too. But I also would’ve laughed because you know what? In broad strokes, we’re not famous for our humor! I’m not talking about laughing at Daniel Tosh’s joke (which sucked), and I’m not talking about how you Susie Feminist or me, Joanna Schroeder, or even Jennifer Pozner or Lindy West react to specific comedy. I’m talking about “feminists” as a whole, or feminism as a movement.
Why does our movement have this bad reputation? Well, there are some really good reasons and also some bad ones. First the good ones: As a culture, there is this notion that women are supposed to be pretty and pliable. During the Cold War era, women were expected to become June Cleaver, and they were supposed to view their husbands as the head of the family and to be their personal servants. Sure, there were some notable exceptions, but in general women were basically silly putty to be jammed into the mold of “Wife” and “Mother”. And we were supposed to like it! We were supposed to smile and shut up.
But second-wave feminists didn’t like it. They wanted more. They wanted their little girls to grow up to have all (or nearly all) the opportunities men had, such as careers in science and politics and medicine, reproductive rights, and equal pay for equal work. And guess what? We’re getting closer to achieving those goals. Nice work, Second-Wave Feminists!
Part of not wanting to be putty was women finding their voices and saying, “This doesn’t work for me. You don’t have the right to tell me I can’t do something just because I’m a woman.” Which also meant not smiling to appease people when you didn’t feel like smiling. Not smiling when people said things that hurt you, or hurt women in general. Not smiling even though you were supposed to in order to appease. Women are human beings with our own feelings, and if something isn’t funny to us then God damn it, we don’t have to smile.
This was important, and it is important. We see something similar happening with the various men’s rights movements, too. Jokes about women beating men up simply aren’t funny to a lot of these guys. And they don’t have to smile when people tell them that these jokes are funny. They can say, “violence isn’t funny simply because it’s committed against a man.” And as feminists we should get that, because we were saying the same thing about ourselves 50 years ago (and ever since).
Feminists were the ones who said we deserved to be in workplaces free of sexual harassment, and a lot of people thought this was very un-funny of us. I can’t tell you how many guys told me, “Aww, you’re no fun!” when I didn’t want to take off my bra and participate in a wet tee shirt contest in the kitchen of the restaurant I worked in.
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So back to my point. Feminists got the reputation of being un-fun because we were raising our voices and making the status quo very uncomfortable. Feminists were the ones who said we deserved to be in workplaces free of sexual harassment, and a lot of people thought this was very un-funny of us. I can’t tell you how many guys told me, “Aww, you’re no fun!” when I didn’t want to take off my bra and participate in a wet tee shirt contest in the kitchen of the restaurant I worked in.
In my social life, I wasn’t interested in making out with another girl to turn on a group of leering guys, or stand up on a bar and dance like I’m in frickin’ Coyote Ugly. I will defend the right of any woman who wants to do those things, but those things weren’t for me. And it displeased many of the fellas (and some of the ladies, too). I got labeled a prude, or stuck-up, or a bitch. And those three things have become equated with feminists as a whole because, well, you know, we just aren’t fun.
And those are the good reasons why we’re sometimes considered not very funny.
Onto the bad reasons. We take ourselves very seriously. We stage take-downs of epic proportion (Laci Green and Hugo Schwyzer come to mind) and sometimes these take-downs block real conversation and the opportunity for growth and forgiveness. Take-downs by a few very loud extremists will make any movement look monolithic and blood-thirsty.
Again, boycotts and grassroots efforts to make change have important historical roots, and are still important tools (i.e. Chick-fil-A), but many have gotten out of control as the Internet has helped mobilize angry, active feminist voices into radical and violent mini-movements. Clarisse Thorn calls this a Full-On Internet Feminist Scandal in a beautiful story that is somehow about rape, feminism and take-down culture all in one. These mini-movements don’t necessarily reflect who we are as a whole, but they become the face of our movement. Hell, even Marissa Mayer says she isn’t a feminist because of how negative we seem!
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Louis CK’s Daily Show joke is the perfect example of how sometimes we take ourselves too seriously. We’re so convinced that everyone’s out to get us that we missed the point. Part of what Louis CK did on The Daily Show was poke the boil of the self-importance of the feminist movement. And he’s so masterful as a comedian that he got the exact response he was expecting—a resounding “Boooo!”—so that he could put the final touch on an incredibly well-crafted joke with the unexpected but perfectly-timed “See?”
Watch the video (below). If you think the boos and the follow-up punchline of “See?” were a coincidence, you’re underestimating CK. The punchline wasn’t “feminists can’t take a joke” the punchline was “See?”
We played right into his hands.
And what is that joke saying? Seems to me it’s saying, Aren’t we, as humans, predictable? Isn’t it crazy how we create binaries where there don’t necessarily have to be any?
Good jokes have a resounding element of truth to them that everyone can recognize. Sometimes, as in the case of Louis CK’s Daily Show joke, the fact of whether or not we can take a joke is irrelevant, the truth is that the world sees us this way and our first response is to fulfill that expectation.
Louis CK’s joke about feminists not being able to take a joke is funny. It’s very funny. It is not lazy or cruel or told out of reactive anger like Daniel Tosh’s gang-rape joke was. Because CK’s was well-crafted, nuanced, and artfully told.
Beyond that, in the interview CK talks about the thing that actually matters in all of this Daniel Tosh controversy. He talks about how the conversation that has happened since Tosh made his rape joke has educated people, how it’s drawn out tough conversations, and how it helped him gain empathy for the experience of women in this society:
“To me, all dialogue is positive… I think you should listen. If someone has the opposite feeling from me, I want to listen so I can add to mine. I don’t want to obliterate theirs with mine.”
And if you think Louis CK was defending Daniel Tosh in his sit-down with Jon Stewart, take a moment to reflect upon what he says about comedians: “Comedians can’t take criticism.”
Who do you think he’s talking to?
Daniel Tosh.
So think again before you slam Louis CK for what may feel at first like an attack on feminists. Look at Louis CK’s work as a whole. Go back to the clips that my feminist cohorts and I posted. Study the body of his work.
He’s not attacking feminism. He’s asking us all to look at ourselves a little bit closer and to take a little criticism.
For more on comedy and social issues, read Jeff Cohen’s This Town Needs a New Sheriff
Image: AP
Were you at the Laugh Factory when daniel tosh did this rape joke? If not then you can not judge whether or not the “rape” joke was funny. Standup comedy can only be judged live,video, or at the very least on audio. None of those exist of the night in question…..therefore you’re statements are meaningless.
Louis is good at bringing in modern issues of manhood in nuanced and complex ways. He is good at sympathizing with multiple viewpoints even when it causes him considerable but humorous stress and tension. His comedy illustrates the absurdity of being modern in a contradictory world and I think maybe he should be the official comedian of the Good Men Project.
I’m sure I’m going to get flamed for this, but to me this sounds a lot like a white guy saying the “N” word. The moment it happens, the discussion’s not about linguistics anymore, it’s about the historical struggle of the slaves. The difference is it’s not a word that’s off limits to feminists, it’s a worldview. Any time someone disagrees with the basic premises of any gender-related discussion, it’s suddenly about the sociohistorical context of the women’s rights movement. I literally had a friend of mine start drunkenly preaching to me about women’s suffrage a few weeks ago when… Read more »
“So think again before you slam Louis CK for what may feel at first like an attack on feminists. Look at Louis CK’s work as a whole. Go back to the clips that my feminist cohorts and I posted. Study the body of his work. He’s not attacking feminism. He’s asking us all to look at ourselves a little bit closer and to take a little criticism.” What if someone was attacking feminism humorously, should feminists listen to him? Or would he be branded an enemy and enemies have nothing insightful to say? I am also confused about what appears… Read more »
Louis CK’s “Kill the Jews” joke was true indication of how he feels about the “rape” controversy. Finishing up a rape joke discussion with a Holocaust joke is a very clever way to show the hypocrisy and oversensitivity of those all up in arms over what Tosh said to the heckler.
I think we all agree with the basic points in Joanna’s article. 1) Feminists usually can’t take a joke. 2) Comedians usually can’t take criticism. I think that’s a fair place to note where we’re all in agreement, right? Applying that to this situation seems to be the tricky part. I second a lot of what Toysoldiers said earlier upthread. The reason we’re talking about Tosh’s treatment of this heckler, rather than his overall treatment of every subject matter, or even his treatment of male victims, is because society privileges the feelings of female victims (specifically female rape victims) over… Read more »
I wonder… would feminists be shitting their pants at a rape joke about men? Ha, rhetorical question, of course they wouldn’t . The fine and upstanding feminist heckled Tosh, and ended up getting more than she bargained for. Case closed, right? Nope. She took to the internets and cried until an army of white knights swooped in to save her. She even lied about what was said, and not a single feeminist site even bothered to get the real story. Which really says all that needs to be said right there. And here we are, holding this up as an… Read more »
Oh yeah as a knee jerk response the joke was funny.
A comedian told a joke and people are mad.What the hell. Have you guys seen his show or any of stand up? This should’ve been expected. He had a stage and he told his joke, if she got offended thats her fault. I hate all of this censhorship crap especially for comedians. Whether its Tracy Morgan, Daniel Tosh or Micheal Richards everyone who sees them has the right to leave and even ask for their money back if it gets really offensive. Speak with your wallet, don’t try to silence them.
When you have women who are distancing themselves of being called a feminist, you know there is a huge problem. Something that should make women automatically proud to be called is now a topic of major debate. It’s pretty sad. If I were a feminist I’d be quite upset that the state of affairs got so bad that ANY woman felt hesitant about being associated with the movement.
Can’t see the L.CK video as it’s locked out in my region:( Is it on utube?
” If I were a feminist I’d be quite upset that the state of affairs got so bad that ANY woman felt hesitant about being associated with the movement.” Huh? If I were a feminist I would be pretty fucking happy that the state of affairs was so GOOD that that was my major concern. You do realize that at one point in time almost all women did not want to be associated with feminism…as in close to 100%. Now they have reached the point where a single woman not identifying with feminism is something to be upset about!? Wow.… Read more »
“They wanted their little girls to grow up to have all (or nearly all) the opportunities men had, such as careers in science and politics and medicine, reproductive rights, and equal pay for equal work. And guess what? ”
Reproductive rights, equal pay for equal work? Were those just casually slipped in there? Or were you speaking of men of the feminist imagination?
You misread. I meant the second-wave feminists. Not men. Though many men do and did feel that way. My grandfather was born in 1918 and was a feminist from when he was a teenager. He also worked in social justice in many other ways, most notably in Civil Rights and Immigrant Rights. Now, in his 90s, he is working for Gay Rights within the Reformed Church of America.
There are good men. Ralph Schroeder is one of them.
ehhh….we’re still missing each other Joanna. I read your statement to literally mean that men HAD reproductive rights and equal-pay-for-equal-work that 2nd-wave feminists wished to secure for their daughters.
The point of my pithy quip was to suggest that actual men had no such privileges to share. From my perspective, these are universal aspirations and not privileges possessed by one group withheld from another.
….actually just to take a step back. I just don’t understand a feminist perspective obsessed with measuring advancement in terms of whether women have everything men have; this is how we end up suspicious that peeing standing up must bestow some tremendous advantages. A more egalitarian gender movement would grapple with the elimination of gender as a barrier to individual liberty and self-actualization for all.
And I get you were just offering a passing remark in a broader context, but the little things can reveal volumes.
I hear you now, Random_Stranger. I think it’s not that women have everything men have, it’s just that women have equal access to do what they dream of and what they wish to. I want the same thing for men (HELLO? I’m an editor at The Good Men Project! I don’t do it for my health!). Here’s the thing. Men were putty too, back then. They had to be pressed into certain molds – Strict uninvolved father, straight and cis of course, bearing the entire burden of “breadwinner”, “Man in the Grey Flannel Suit” type of things. I firmly believe… Read more »
Sometimes I wonder something, Joanna…Why are you a feminist?
Because “feminist” is a massive tent pole term used to encompass a myriad of different groups, most of who disagree with each other, fight each other, and take every little bit personally. They’re a lot like Trekkies in that way.
Joanna doesn’t want to put all Y-chromosomes behind an electric fence made of golden lasso, she just shares a label with those who do. The latter group just likes to make make a bigger stink and rake in the grant money.
He knows it’s a tent pole term. He just wanted to know why she chooses to self label with something most Americans think of as negative.
“Comedians can’t take criticism.”
Comedy is a form of criticism, social criticism. Comedians can dish it out, but they can’t take it. And come to think of it, that may apply to (some) feminists. They can’t take criticism in the form of comedy. It’s all the same mechanism.
You’re sugarcoating as a defense mechanism.
Louis CK attacks many a sacred cow in this interview. He goes after feminists and their humorlessness, comedians and their inability to take criticism, bloggers and finally women who think their feelings matter more than anything else.
Dude, he goes after way more than that. Men, women, comedians, Jews… He compares the Mets with the Holocaust! What is one thing you’re not supposed to do? Compare ANYTHING with the Holocaust! Certainly not baseball for fuck’s sake. And a guy this talented, this famous, this consistently good doesn’t go into an interview without a plan. There’s a reason why he attacks those sacred cows. I’m surprised he didn’t actually attack sacred cows. I don’t need a defense mechanism. I’m pretty in touch with my defenses. I have no reason to defend Louis CK, I just call ’em like… Read more »
Yup. He went after a lot, so then why did you write, and I quote “He isn’t attack feminism”. Because he sure did attack feminist. And he sure did get booed for it. You see, you have every reason to defend Louis CK’s comments as a non attack because in doing so you ALSO defend feminism from being characterized as a sacred cow. If the comedian you consider to be “talented, famous, consistently good” and the unTosh is just trying to help feminism out , rather than call feminism out. Then well that paints a much prettier picture of feminism… Read more »
IDBY, I don’t want you to think that my not responding to you was because you outsmarted me.
I’m not responding to you because what you wrote is incoherent.
You’re not responding because you’ve been busted.
It’s very clear that you are guilty of lots of spin. Your contention that Louis CK was “helping feminism out” rather than “calling feminism out” is a way for you to frame feminism as not that bad. It was ONLY a boil he was poking, right? No big deal. Right? Feminism only has boils. Nothing major wrong with it.
Dude, what’s wrong with you?
RIght? Right? Right? Right? See, don’t you see? Don’t you see? Feminism bad, feminism special interest group, feminism conspiracy. Hah, laugh at the feminists, laugh at them because they’re the same as all the others! See? See? Right? Right?
No, dude what’s wrong you?
RIght? Right? Right? Right? See, don’t you see? Don’t you see? Critics of feminism bad, feminism not special interest group, anti-feminism conspiracy. Don’t laugh at feminists, don’t laugh at us because we’re not the same as all the others! See? See? Right? Right?
You”re feminist tricks won’t work on me, harpie! Louis CK doesn’t like feminists, Louis CK was attacking them! He supports my view of the world, not yours! Get your hands off my Louis CK! Right? See? Right, Right?!?!
You”re antifeminist tricks won’t work on me, misogynist! Louis CK likes feminists, Louis CK wasn’t attacking them! He supports my view of the world, not yours! Get your hands off my Louis CK! Right? See? Right, Right?!?!
I’m not the one who worships Louis CK. I’m also not the one that feels the need to spin a recorded event. Duh!
your*
Just in case you thought my crazy view of the world had something to do with my spelling
Because your bad spelling is soooo much worse than your bad world view. Like I said all along… sacred cow. Grammar is the last thing you need to fix.
TROLLLLLLL-don’t feed it.
I called myself a feminist in college. 30 years later, I still consider myself a pretty hard-core feminist. However, Louis CK’s joke reminded me of an experience some 30 years ago, when read a joke from a book of “tasteless jokes” in a room of about 4 people — How many feminists does it take to change a light bulb? Before I could get the punchline out, one person sighed and said something to the order of “You know, I just don’t find jokes that play on stereotypes to be very funny.”, and then walked out of the room. Some… Read more »
Great breakdown and insight Joanna. I have nothing really to add. You summed it up right there.
And what is that joke saying? Seems to me it’s saying, Aren’t we, as humans, predictable? Isn’t it crazy how we create binaries where there don’t necessarily have to be any? I took it to mean “see how little it takes to set them off”. I think the brilliance of Louis CK’s joke was not just that feminists played perfectly into his hands, but also that he got them to reveal their bias even after he essentially telegraphed that he was going to do that. I think that is why some feminists are complaining about Louis CK’s joke. No one… Read more »
Well, the beauty of art is that it’s open to interpretation. If you ask me, if he’d wanted to defend Daniel Tosh, my guess is that he would’ve simply defended him. But he chose something more artful as a means of making a bigger point about both Tosh and feminists. Also, yeah, I think inherent in what I’m saying is the point that it takes so little to set feminists off. That’s why I said “we played right into his hands”. I don’t understand the distinction here though “the problem is less about what Tosh said than it is that… Read more »
I would agree that the problem was not specifically that the subject was rape except both feminists you linked to describe “rape culture” as a reason why Tosh’s joke was “bad”. Presenting examples of “good” rape jokes does not change that they are essentially arguing that unless comedians structure the jokes in what they think is the “right” way, rape jokes against women are off limits. The idea that in order to tell a rape joke about women someone has to construct some complicated social insight is absurd if for no other reason than that no one demands comedians do… Read more »
Jacob, I have no interest in defending the way other people criticized Tosh. I can only say that I was 98% behind Jenn Pozner’s original response to Tosh and her assertion that it wasn’t the subject matter but rather the shitty joke and the way it singled out one individual that was the problem.
But seriously, it feels to me like your mission is to explain why one sex has it worse than the other and that’s a massive waste of my time.
“it wasn’t the subject matter but rather the shitty joke and the way it singled out one individual that was the problem.” I don’t understand. It was a shitty joke in response to a heckle, it’s not like that particular joke was part of his act. He had to come up with something right on the spot. I can understand if he was thrown off and tried to be funny and failed. They don’t always know what’s going to be funny that’s why they tour comedy clubs and THEN film a special. And it seems to me he wouldn’t have… Read more »
I agree she shouldn’t have heckled, but his response was just sort of scary. You can have a different opinion on whether his response was funny or not, that’s not up for me to decide for you. To me, it wasn’t funny, it seems desperate. Let’s also note here that none of us actually knows what she said or what he said. I’m always a little bothered when I’m discussing things I didn’t witness. That’s why I didn’t write publicly about Tosh’s joke. This piece is really about Louis CK’s jokes. Which i saw. But if the reports are true,… Read more »
“Let’s also note here that none of us actually knows what she said or what he said.”
Well we do know what she said because she wrote in her blog that she called out saying that rape jokes are never funny.
I’ve just now started reading her article. By the way she writes it’s like she was in the room with him. I wish she was more like you and felt a little bothered discussing things she didn’t witness. I already don’t like it.
Actually, the woman in question *didn’t* write about it in her blog. She wrote an email to a friend which the friend then posted in her own, on-going blog. We don’t know if that was an except from the email that was posted, the whole thing, or just what she recalled the next day. Also, when someone gets freaked out or angry by a situation, they’re likely not to remember every thing that happened. This could support or not support the woman’s account, but the club owner who watched the set was quoted as saying that Tosh was asking for… Read more »
Actually, the priest analogy is kind of a bad one for your purposes, because telling anyone they’re going to hell even IF they scream “There is no god!” is honestly one of the tackiest, least responsible things a person can do (especially if he’s clergy), regardless of religious affiliation. One is asserting an idea, in however rudely a manner it might have been done, that harms or implies harm to no one; the other is an interjection of judgment and, when done in anger, arguably a bold, vocal wish: “You’re going to be tortured forever for what you just said!”… Read more »
So it’s a bad analogy because telling someone they’re going to hell “is honestly one of the tackiest, least responsible things a person can do.” That’s a non-sequitur. You’re guilty of a logical fallacy here my friend. “And if he tours comedy clubs looking for what works and what doesn’t before filming specials, she gave him direct feedback, if nothing else” She interrupted the guy during his performance. If I don’t like what is said during church I don’t provide vocal instant feedback. If I don’t like something that is said during a broadway musical, I don’t provide instant vocal… Read more »
I said, “It’s a bad analogy for your purposes”, because it is. You’re trying to convey that a priest shouting “You’re going to hell” is as justifiable, in your eyes, as what Tosh did. I believe the two are equally as UN-justifiable. It’s a bad analogy because they’re both perfect examples of terribly inappropriate responses. And if that’s the culture you want to live in, then god bless. But “It’s comedy!” and “He’s a comedian” keep being tossed out as if they’re arguments. “Comedians say offensive things all the time!” Well, no. They say crude things. They say shocking things.… Read more »
Oh, I understand what you’re saying now. I think it is a perfectly analogy. Nobody has the right to NOT be offended by things. Just because some girl in a comedy club or someone in a church feels “offended” (boo fucking hoo) they don’t automatically have the right to voice themselves without expecting some push back. So to me the push back is completely justifiable; especially, if the push back is something that is to be expected. And everyone expects that a crude comic will give a cruel and harsh pushback. “Their job isn’t to actually OFFEND their audience.” Well… Read more »
First of all, you’ve “gotten” nothing “out of me”, and your condescension is duly noted. I have respect for people with whom I argue, and it’s a shame you don’t feel that’s in any way necessary in your arguments. Also, I never said anyone had the right to not be offended; but everyone has the right to express his or her offense, and add their voice to the collective exchange of ideas on any specific topic. And as I said, it appears Daniel Tosh came out the worse for it in the end. If you don’t want to admit that… Read more »
I agree Joanna. My take away of that interview was that Louis CK’s stance was equally critical of feminists and Tosh. His delivery was very nuanced and clever.
I also agree with you that when he says comedians he is specifically talking about Tosh. Louis is of course correct. It seems a little two-faced of Tosh to have made himself into this icon of rude/shocking behavior, then react so poorly when a little of this is reflected back at him.
Brilliant logic. The humorless can’t judge what is funny, because they are humorless. Thus the problem is more with the humorless than with the details of the joke being told or how that joke is delivered.
Impressive. That’s straight Sherlock Holmes stuff.
Talk about straight Sherlock Holmes, you really decoded my message there, Robert Langdon!
Or not.
Ummm, unless you were in that Daily show clip, yours wasn’t the message my comment was geared towards. Goodness you’re flustered.
Dude, I couldn’t be less flustered. Annoyed by you, sure, but you’re more like a mosquito than a lion.
Alright children, goto your rooms! 😛