Explanations for marital decline start with home economics: men are worth less they used to be. Among men with some college but no degrees, earnings have fallen 8 percent in the past 30 years, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, while the earnings of their female counterparts have risen by 8 percent.
“Women used to rely on men, but we don’t need to anymore,” said Teresa Fragoso, 25, a single mother in Lorain. “We support ourselves. We support our kids.”
For the first time there are more unwed than wed moms under 30. And it’s not just poor and minority moms, as the stereotype goes. The fastest growing group of unwed mothers is white women in their 20s. Some of those are poor and unwed on purpose to get government assistance. But a great number are not, choosing to have their baby without marrying the child’s father.
The question for us is what does this mean about men and dads? Are men failing to show up in these situations or are we being shut out? Or is it possibly that marriage is just an outdated social arrangement having nothing to do with parenting? Is is better to have kids out of wedlock than have them in a marriage that ends in divorce?
Let us know your thoughts.
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Q. The question for us is what does this mean about men and dads? Ans. Don’t trouble the trouble until it troubles you. Men and dads can chillax. Q Are men failing to show up in these situations or are we being shut out? Ans. Nobody wants them to show up and it is better to be shut out than pay up in these circumstances. Q. Is it possibly that marriage is just an outdated social arrangement having nothing to do with parenting? Ans. It certainly seems so. Q. Is is better to have kids out of wedlock than have… Read more »
Archy, this is pure fiction, nothing to do with reality. Working dads in two-parent homes don’t ever do most of this stuff, some don’t do any of it. Maybe a diaper here and there, maybe a sandwich on Saturday, maybe take a kid to a game, maybe take the trash to the road and that’s about it. Mom does 95% of it. I’m a teacher who has taught hundreds and hundreds of kids and have my own kids and have many moms and dads as good friends. Most actual dads I know say the same thing – “My wife does… Read more »
A fair amount of time/work studies are “How many hours of the following activities did you do in the last” [insert hours here]. The hours are usually 24 – 48. Why is this important. Because a number of what I will call traditional male jobs, i.e. fixing the car, cleaning the gutters, mowing the lawn, fixing the house are only done once in a while but take a substantional amount of time, but unless the time/work survey is ‘lucky’ , it won’t catch those hours. For example a fair number of these jobs are done on the weekend and unless… Read more »
Another comment trying to compare inside work with outside work, men, will you ever get it?!?! Your example actually PROVES that men do less house work! Sorry but outside work is not every day work and much of it is not even every week work. All inside work is what makes the home and family run smoothly, when the bulk of it is put on the woman (or mother) it is unbalanced. In no way is the comparison of inside work v. outside work valid.
enhancedvibes, post your stats to prove men do less housework. Then balance that out with financial contribution, and if you really want to get technical balance it with emotional and physical exertion required, effort put in, etc. I see this same argument of men not doing enough house-work yet I could easily suggest women aren’t contributing enough money to run the household if I want to roll with stereotypes as others blatantly do here. I don’t see a single shred of evidence apart from anecdotes, what proof is that? Here’s one from me. From the families I know of men… Read more »
“From the families I know of men provide more money, women provide more housework and childcare. Both roles are needed, both roles can be mixed but I find it generally balances out.” Most of the couples I know provide similar incomes to the household. Regardless, why would a father think providing more money means he shouldn’t have to do housework (again, what a poor argument, I don’t see how this absolves any partner from contributing in the home) and less child care. Why would he want to do less child care? I really don’t get this argument. He should want… Read more »
Many homes I know of have financial struggle, when the money becomes tight the men especially take it hard and society expects them to earn more money. Bringing in income IS CONTRIBUTING TO A HOUSEHOLD, what dreamworld do you live in? Yes, there is a level of satisfaction in income to be reached and working past that doesn’t add to a household unless they’re hiring maids, but with the rising cost of living and financial struggles earning more money is needed. Keeping the family fed, clothed, safe, healthy, adequate entertainment, educated, etc is contributing to the household. Of course all… Read more »
WHAT DON’T YOU GET WHEN READING MOST MOTHERS AND FATHERS BOTH CONTRIBUTE TO THE HOUSEHOLD FINANCES?
“In households where both parents work, which gender earns more, and how much do they struggle financially?”
I really don’t understand why you think it is relevant if one partner earns more. That doesn’t absolve them of contributing to childcare and housework. A shame you think it does since you keep repeating it I can only assume you believe this to be true.
If one works part time, puts in less hours and money and the other works fulltime then the first has more time to do the childcare + household chores. If they both work fulltime, then they split the other duties 50:50. If one is the breadwinner and the other is a stay at home parent, the stay at home parent does more of the childcare and household chores. More work outside of home means less time to work inside the home, that is what I mean. I didn’t EVER say it absolves them of childcare and housework, you’re reading things… Read more »
Why dont you get off the need to see something proven in a study, when all of those studies are questionable anyway given how terms are defined and questions are worded etc. Actually talk to married men and women and see what their issues are with marriage, parenting, relationship, etc. You see this as some attack against men, which is ridiculous, it’s trying to root out the reasons why women would rather have children without men. I think it is reasonable to argue that if men were better partners less women would have children without them. If you dont agree,… Read more »
“men are worth less they used to be”
Because their only worth is the income stream they can provide to their spouses.
Actually, Katie, the stats are not a matter of men “claiming”, but of somewhat more objective studies. The issue is how it’s labeled. For example, a woman would say, “I drove the family to grandma’s.” A man says, “We went to grandma’s.” Difference is, the woman thinks she “did” something while the man doesn’t think he “did” anything, it being SOP for him to drive and thus does not occur. I was laid up with a detached retina in the fall. That’s two weeks of nearly complete immobility and a month of limited activity. My wife mentioned, more than once,… Read more »
Richard, statistical surveys of subjective matters like this are viewed with skepticism for obvious reasons. For every survey saying one thing, there will be another saying the opposite. Also, I’m not talking about real deadbeat dads and moms here, I’m talking about fairly average people. You bring up a good point about the gutters, one of the seasonal jobs that men tend to undertake, but women sometimes do. It involves a ladder and hence a bit of danger and I usually do it twice a year, spring and fall. Labor-wise and time-wise, this equates with cleaning two bathrooms top to… Read more »
My take on the situation is that women aren’t valuing the contributions men are making, how taxing and time consuming dads unglamorous work is. What I see is both genders thinking the other gender does less, and that each don’t feel their partners value their contributions.
Archie, what are those taxing and time-consuming daily chores that fathers do around the house?
You seriously are asking that? Let’s see, making breakfast/lunch/dinner, washing, ironing, all the various cleaning duties, changing diapers, looking after the kids, helping with homework, taking out trash. But not every father and mother does the same thing, it varies upon family. There are no generalized answers because every family differs.
What are the chores mothers do? The only chore that mothers do that a father can’t would be breastfeeding?
Archy, this is pure fiction, nothing to do with reality. Working dads in two-parent homes don’t ever do most of this stuff, some don’t do any of it. Maybe a diaper here and there, maybe a sandwich on Saturday, maybe take the trash to the road and that’s about it. Mom does 95% of it. I’m a teacher who has taught thousands of kids and have my own kids and have moms and dads as good friends. You said you have no children. You have no idea what you’re talking about.
And I am a parent and know lots of dads who work their butts off with/for their kids. Mine did. From diapers to feedings to PTA, he’s in it to win it. Anecdata isn’t always reliable, mine either!
I still see the issue as that of two parent families being overworked and trying to live at a standard that is impossible.
Working dads in two parent homes don’t ever do that stuff? And you are qualified to speak for what percentage of the male population? I AM a mother and I have three kids and both my husband and I work full time jobs. He does as much work around the house as I do, and whats more he is not the only one we know who does. I can think of at least a dozen of our friends and family including my fatrher who more than pull their weight at home and work, so lets just be careful with the… Read more »
Archy, women have learned to do those traditional male chores and that they aren’t so hard to do – not harder than traditional female chores. On the other hand, men seem to think traditional female chores are beneath them, or that women should perform those chores in deference to men, or as I asserted earlier, they they might actually be incapable of independently performing that work. Either way, women are doing twice their share of work in the household and so they find life easier without men.
The traditional woman’s work I miss the most from modern women is cooking. I tried to get a former girlfriend to make tamales for me for my birthday (she asked me what I wanted.) She offered sex instead. I asked for the tamales because I knew they were hard to make. We settled on her buying me a dozen tamales and sex. We broke up soon after my birthday. I knew it wouldn’t work out, but I wanted my tamales. Yes, and the sex.
I wonder if this is because for the first time in history, both men and woman really have a choice in the matter. The ability to have a choice comes from women entering the workforce, being able to support children without relying on a husband. Socially, there is less pressure to get married and stayed married (this is true for both men and women). Marriage is no longer a key part to the survival equation in many developed nations.
I would love to hear from the male halves in that article, and, I can assure you, there are men working hard to pay monthly checks to a majority of women in that story. They are doing so under pain of imprisonment if they stop.
see, thats why I don’t trust any of these articles. You’ll notice they never, never bother to get the men’s side of things. We’re just supposed to trust the wives that their lives are really the way they say they are. Could you imagine the outrage at an article that stated that women do nothing but sit around on Facebook all day, according to their husbands, and never bothered to get the wive’s side of the story? incidentally, I do, in fact, know one marriage exactly like that. Husband gets up every morning to take oldest to the bus stop,… Read more »
I know a relationship much like that, except the mother works part time as works as a carer. The amount of time she spends on facebook and farmville or whatever it is is incredible and depressing. Their 4 year old is starved for attention but she would rather be slovenly on the computer than read/play/talk or whatever else she could be doing with her child during the day.
On another thread, somebody got the latest stats on dads helping with housework. It’s even up.
Now, I understand that’s not a useful item in this kind of argument, but you have to recall that everybody knows it, even if you claim to think otherwise.
Everybody knows better, already.
Richard, maybe everybody knows that except the majority of moms under 30 – and probably the majority of wed moms and children disagree with that also. Kids talk about their home lives frequently at school. Some dads cook – and cook well – and some grocery shop, but according to kids moms do the vast majority of work at home – including fixing the house (traditional male work) although their dads say they do half the work. That’s right, kids say the dads claim to do half the work but only do a small portion, so boys and girls are… Read more »
So we’re back to blaming all men, and based on what? Your anecdotes and what ‘everybody knows’ to be true?
Could the children possibly be repeating what their mother told them? That would be living with dishonesty too, albeit a more insidious one because the mother would be lying to the children.
I think it is funny it is assumed either the children are lying or being coached by the mother. Face it guys, a lot of guys do not help around the house.
And a lot of girls don’t help out around the house either. What’s your point? Can you show proof that 1 gender does more than the other towards upkeep of a household and family? How many households do you know that have both mother n father providing equal levels towards breadwinning, childcare, and housework? Are the fathers bringing in more cash whilst the mothers do more of the household chores and childcare? Or is the only substantial contribution to a family the childcare and housework vs other things such as I dunno, financial contribution to keep the roof over the… Read more »
I dont understand why anyone would think contributing more to the household finances absolves anyone of contributing to household chores and the nitty gritty of parenting, I dont care which parent it is.
Archy, children of divorced and single parents are a huge problem in the school system nationwide. Single moms are frazzled and over-worked, make no mistake, but still find it better than living with men who add to their labor and their ability to create a structured life for the children. Children need structure to succeed in school and activities. I’ve come full circle on working moms. I think the government should provide a huge tax credit to married parents where the mom stays home to take care of the children. That way dad doesn’t have to do housework and childcare… Read more »
This is USA you’re talking of right? It mgith be different here, I believe there are quite a few “middle class” welfare systems in place, subsidies for child-care, decent welfare system, we even have a baby bonus to help pay for the costs in birth not to mention medicare and health-care available for cheap or free in many cases. I wouldn’t limit your idea to gender though, especially with more and more stay at home fathers these days.
Wouldn’t single fathers, sole custody also be highly frazzled like single mothers?
Archy, rather than working themselves frazzled, most men just seem to drop the responsibilities or deny cleanliness, academics and school activities are important, and the children suffer from that negligence. Or men pick up other women and dump the responsibilities of the children on them, compounding the children’s fractured lives. Again, if men did more of the work of child raising and house work and helped support the family dependably, women would welcome them as partners in the home. It’s not about “feelings,” it’s about work. People might feel like they’d be a great athlete or musician or parent, but… Read more »
If this were true, it would be tragic. Your post is akin to the “Super Bow myth” about domestic violence and the feminist lie that women do not perpetrate domestic violence upon men.
That’s interesting since statistics seem to show the majority of neglect is by female caregivers. http://www.aifs.gov.au/nch/pubs/sheets/rs7/rs7.html So what you’re saying is you want men to do more around the house yet you tell everyone men aren’t responsible enough which would lead people to believe they can’t be trusted with the kids, so wouldn’t less men get the chance? All I see is anecdotal evidence with no proof, a misandrous statement on a site for men. Do you see how offensive that is? You’re treating the mothers as if they are better parents when that doesn’t seem to be the case… Read more »
Archy, the negligence I’m talking about is not criminal, where a child is beaten or eating trash, but it is a loaded word, so let me qualify it. I’m referring to kids who often wear dirty clothes, have dirty hair, ears, fingernails and are frequently late and unprepared for school, sports and activities. This is what you see in a lot of kids living primarily with dad. Keeping that kid clean and well-dressed is huge, non-stop job and getting him where he needs to be with everything he needs requires constant vigilance. The enormity and exhausting nature of the work… Read more »
When my brother’s kids needed help with their homework. He would bring them to me because neither he nor his wife was very good at school. We’ve discussed how the school systems have failed to meet the needs of boys several times on GMP. Could men not feel capable of helping their children with their homework? Most dads I know would love to take their sons to football or karate practice. Are these daughters or sons and who signed them up for these school activities? My brother would drop his daughter off and pick her up from theater practice, but… Read more »
I know in Canada, the government tax married couples more. So this encourages couples to live common-law or separately and put off marriage or never marry.
We found dad: http://goo.gl/YE5s6
I think the government should provide a huge tax credit to married parents where the mom stays home to take care of the children. Absolutely not. There are already very substantial tax deductions for having kids that for childless people to bear a disproportionately greater share of the tax burden even though they benefit less from the services their taxes are used to pay for. It is unjustifiable to force other people with no say in the matter to subsidize even further other people’s choices over which they have no control. The counterpart to pro-choice is pro-responsibility. People who choose… Read more »
Kirsten, broken families and single parents put a huge financial burden on the government in terms of services and many of these kids grow up poor and perpetuate that cycle. There is a real economic value in keeping families together and given that the majority of moms under 30 are now un-wed, it’s reaching crisis proportions. Everyone is negatively affected by it whether or not they have children. You can’t make a mother live with the father of her children and kids with two homes suffer also. The U.S. is not a family-friendly country and steps need to be taken… Read more »
I cant believe you are advocating for tax benefits rather than fathers doing their fair share of active parenting and housework. In most households in which there are two parents, both parents work and women still do the bulk of the child rearing and housework. Govt shouldnt reward people for having children, not to mention there are already some tax benefits when children are in the picture.
“In most households in which there are two parents, both parents work and women still do the bulk of the child rearing and housework.” And from the recent TIME study on this issue it was shown men worked a few more hours per week, and women did a few more hours per week of the housework so it evened out in the end. Of the other studies of women doing more housework I’ve seen, they’ve had a bias and discredited certain chores such as gardening and outside work due to being “fun” so a man could spend 2-5hours doing the… Read more »
I read the TIMES study and it was poorly done. I don’t care how the study rated it, men working more hours outside of the home is not comparable to contributing in the home nor should it take the place of. Some of the stuff defined as childcare was spending leisure time with the children as opposed to mothers doing the parenting stuff with kids on average more than the father. The study did not conclude much in equality in the household work and parenting imho. “Men are already helping more and more with childcare and housework whilst women are… Read more »
“If men don’t understand what is or isn’t appropriate behavior around children then they shouldn’t be interacting with them. As for sexism against men about kids, I agree. Im a woman and I find it offensive that women still think its so cute to see fathers out in public with their kids as though this is not normal. I love seeing fathers more actively parent in public! It’s awesome and shows some have come a long way.” What, like being within 20m of a kid? Adult men get moved on flights next to children that aren’t their own because of… Read more »
You can blame patriarchy and the belief that women are better caregivers as to why society doesn’t see men around children as normal. However, as we see more and more men actively parenting, in public, these views about parenting will change, albeit slowly. “Well some women especially need to stop expecting men to earn more money than they do, if you want men to be sole-breadwinner, expect to do a lot of the housework and childcare whilst he’s at work, you can even it out when he’s home or workout whatever is best for your situation. If you both work… Read more »
Archy, this sounds like you’re financially valuing the work of a mother to the work of a paid housecleaner.
Archy, if men were more helpful and useful in the home and relieved women of some of the hard work, women certainly would want them around. I’ve taught in underprivileged school systems and wealthy suburbs. The statistics speak for themselves.
So post these statistics for us to see, atm all I see is anecdotal evidence and could say “if women helped with earning more money or doing more work in the home instead of watching daytime soaps then men would feel their partners are pulling their weight”. But without evidence, what good does it do? I saw both genders work hard and lots of couples do that. ht tp://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2084582,00.html Here’s one recent study on the issue. Seems it’s pretty much even these days between men n women in working + childcare. Maybe the problem is the stereotype of men being… Read more »
“I knew of couples where the men did little housework but those men were doing extremely laborous jobs, using a hell of a lot of energy compared to housework so whilst the time working might be different, the overall energy expenditure could easily be similar or higher for the man and also the tiredness, greater need for rest to repair muscle tissue etc” Then he should choose a different job. In most households with children and two parents BOTH parents work full time. It doesnt matter if the father works a laborious job, that doesnt absolve him of doing household… Read more »
“Then he should choose a different job. In most households with children and two parents BOTH parents work full time. It doesnt matter if the father works a laborious job, that doesnt absolve him of doing household and child rearing duties. I dont get this argument at all.” Wow, are you really that dense? Let’s see, choosing a different job whilst having to pay a mortgage and generally having quite a lot of bills. Sure, quite easy in an economy that is slowing and unemployment is rising. Even worse if they have done study/ an apprenticeship that takes a few… Read more »
I was being a bit facetious there. Also, in households where two parents work both contribute to the bills. “You don’t get the argument because you don’t understand humans have a limited ability in time and energy, yeah it sucks he can’t contribute as much to the household duties and childcare but guess what, life isn’t fair, if someone is already worked to death than pushing more work on them at home isn’t going to be healthy. “ Yes and traditional gender roles socialize men and women into believing women should be super wives and super moms and men shouldn’t… Read more »
Archy, this comment below shows you know nothing about doing housework or looking after children. You said you don’t even have children – you’re just parroting this MRA crap and living in a fantasy world. “I knew of couples where the men did little housework but those men were doing extremely laborous jobs, using a hell of a lot of energy compared to housework so whilst the time working might be different, the overall energy expenditure could easily be similar or higher for the man and also the tiredness, greater need for rest to repair muscle tissue etc” Housework and… Read more »
I’ll say it again, men aren’t equipped to handle the day-to-day maintenance of raising a child. Although now most don’t financially support the family, they’re still not doing the work of raising a child, which is a ton of menial work. This “loving and caring dad bit” is way over-talked, as raising a child is about doing the unglamorous, punctual maid-secretary-chauffeur work described above regularly and without being asked, not just showing up for fun times and photo opportunities. That means missing the big game, missing the gym, missing drinks with the guys, not buying that expensive truck, getting criticized… Read more »
“Most dad custody arrangements are disastrous for children.” Seriously, you’re going to post that, on a men’s site where there are many fathers who strive hard to be the best dad they can. Do the kids living with the mother after divorce suffer any of these problems? Is it a sizable number to the point you can safely say most “dad custody arrangements are disastrous for children” or are you basing it off a small sample size and simply showing your misandry? Obviously there are far far more custodial fathers than you could possibly have met so how can you… Read more »
Women can be financially independent without men, and with a child. That’s what AFDC is for, WIC, various other kinds of assistance. Medicaid. Or she can work. Which means she isn’t taking care of the child. Hence the statistical issue of poor life outcomes for the kid(s). So you can have a hell of a good time single, and have a kid, too? Doesn’t that require being in two places at once–parent teacher conference and the bar at the same time, canoeing with friends on Saturday while helping with homework. There is also the point that men don’t help with… Read more »
This is an interesting topic. Just in the past 6 months I’ve heard appprox 10 of my friends/family members are pregnant, neither of which have wedded the father of the child. My concern is the women who have a child with one man and months or years later marry another man. Yes, it’s better with two incomes, but why not try to work things out with the father. And just for the record, mistakes do not happen. Whether the woman is on the pill or using another type of contraceptive, she opened her legs and he entered. I’m not blaming… Read more »
Parenting is non-stop work with constant drudgery – housework, cooking and cleaning up fast meals, laundry, checking on school work, grocery and clothes shopping, racing to school, sports, activities, doctor’s appointments and social supervision with a hundred absolute deadlines a day and a constantly changing schedule. Most men aren’t equipped to handle this day-to-day, year-to-year meticulous labor, but don’t regard it as work when mom does it. “Parenting” to a lot of dads is watching TV at night, amusement parks or picking up a kid at a game, but not doing their share of the real labor of parenting and… Read more »
“Most men aren’t equipped to handle this day-to-day, year-to-year meticulous labor”?
Worth mentioning that there are many, many single dads out there that do just this. Blaming and degrading fathers and their role contributes to the situation.
“Blaming and degrading fathers and their role contributes to the situation.” There are always exceptions. There is always someone trying to defend fill in the blank when these issues come up, but Katie is right. Men are so angry that the divorce rate is so high, 71% of divorces are filed by women, and they claim to be losing their kids (even though most divorces end up with close to equal custody), and yet men absolutely dont see their role in the house as equal to that of the mother. Men are very susceptible to the socialization of traditional gender… Read more »
Men are angry? I don’t know that they are, the article doesn’t suggest that. That seems like a generalisation. There is an awful lot of talk here about what women want and what happens when they don’t get what they want, as though what women want is all that matters in a partnership. I am shocked at how simplistic the view is that the reason there are so many single mothers is because men don’t do house work. There are so many reasons that contribute to this growning trend including a a simple lack of emphasis on committed relationships amongst… Read more »
Was basically describing the response to high divorce rates, which is not mentioned here but is mentioned pretty much in every article where divorce is discussed. This article is only about women so of course it’s all from the perspective of women, not to mention women have the children and it is ultimately their decision whether to be in a relationship with the father or not. “I am shocked at how simplistic the view is that the reason there are so many single mothers is because men don’t do house work. ” Are you a guy? If so, then I’m… Read more »
“The simple fact is that divorcing women (and married women and women living with male partners) complain all the time about the same thing, contribution to active parenting and housework” How many of them truly appreciate or even acknowledge the contribution the men do though? Quite a lot men complain of women never appreciating them for what they do, what they bring to the household, they feel like just a utility…Only existing to bring in money. So how many of these women contribute as much to the finances as the men AND do more housework AND do more childcare? Are… Read more »
Im a woman and I get it. Both genders seem to neglect their partners in a lot of ways. Unfortunately, it is still true that it is the woman (the mother) that ties families together. Let’s face it, her role is the family is greater than a man’s because it is expected of her to do more. Very little is expected of men and they fulfill their roles as such. Like a self fulfilling prophecy. For male partners and fathers who are more involved I am sure their wives and partners appreciate them and their contributions. I also think it… Read more »
This has got to be the absolute biggest pile of shit I’ve read for quite some time.
Society already expects a hell of a lot from men, and it’s only been increasing. Men have a terrible portrayal as parents in media today, probably is society expects too much of men and generalizes way too much. Society does this ALSO to women, both genders have terrible stereotypes and expectations placed on them but seriously if you think society doesn’t expect much of fathers than I really cannot debate with you any further because it’d be pointless. Ugh!
In other posts you admitted that society expects men to be providers so much of their time is spent providing and that society doesnt even let men be near children, etc, etc, etc and then here you say its hogwash. Make up your mind! Im not sure what you mean by men being portrayed as bad parents in the media today, but the reason why they were portrayed as better parents “back then” is because much wasnt expected of them! Their primary duty was to support the family financially. Now as younger generation (Gen X and Gen Y) enter adulthood… Read more »
You’re twisting words around, and generalizing the hell out of everything. “but the truth of the matter is that men havent been left behind but women are simply rising up to levels men have previously enjoyed and taken for granted and thus men are (reasonably) experiencing a decline. It’s ok, we can all be successful if we want to. ” Yes yes I am sure that is exactly why men are falling behind. Have you even researched the problem? I’ve read your comments, I do not agree with them mostly due to generalizations. I assume you talk about all men,… Read more »
I am not twisting words and most of the people on this site and in these discussions anywhere on the internet are speaking generally. I don’t need a study every time I type something, sorry you think so. I actually talk to women and men about their experiences and note similarities and differences in their experiences. All studies do is reinforce generalities about what women and men find lacking in relationships and parenting anyway. You seem upset that some commenters are attacking men or generalizing about men but don’t act like you’ve never heard these same complaints by women before,… Read more »
One thing I notice in my own family is that the men tend to be very laid back and flexible, but the women tend to be inflexible. The dishwasher has to be loaded a certain way. The toilet paper has to hang a certain way. Clothes need to be folded a certain way. Women do much of the housework because they don’t like the way men do it. Daughters move out earlier than sons. I’m convinced that it’s because they don’t get along with their mothers. There’s like 100,000,000 men in the US. If a woman can’t find a compatible… Read more »
I agree, that is a problem. When men are willing to contribute to household chores and such women need to let them do it and not micromanage it. Now, if the guy is loading the dishwasher to the extent all the dishes arent getting cleaned that’s another issue entirely. =)
Your second paragraph is too laughable to respond to.
Easiest way to make a guy or girl giveup is pressure them and hound on them for getting it wrong, not everyone knows how to clean. Took me a while to learn how to clean, I want a house that is waterproof and use a pressure sprayer! But positive encouragement will go along way because no one wants to be nagged to death and then hassled because they make a mistake.
I already agreed. As for positive encouragement, ugh, dont guys get it. Women dont feel the need to give praise for stuff they expect their partners to do! Women dont get praise because it is expected of them to keep a clean home, care for children, etc. Men need to learn to be adults and do their fair share. Im sorry, but I simply dont have much sympathy for some guy needing praise for finally learning how to clean fill in the blank. lol
Now you’re generalizing heavy here. I know people of both genders who expect praise for what they do. “Men need to learn to be adults and do their fair share.” So much is wrong with this statement, you ignore men’s financial contributions and do everything you can to generalize that men don’t do enough based on anecdotal evidence, haven’t posted a single study. You don’t have much sympathy because you’re bitter against men, it’s the only vibe I get from you and it sure is enhanced! SOME people don’t feel the need to praise and what good does it do?… Read more »
I have a different opinion so I’m bitter? GTFO lol IMO, as a guy you feel attacked, that’s why you keep assuming I mean all men when I am talking so you can just point out how I am generalizing and write off my comments when you hear this shit all the time. Anyway, I dont have sympathy for men’s inability to act like grown ups once they are actually grown up. Just on this page alone there are several comments where guys apparently dont have sympathy for women who grow up and act the same way. Im ok with… Read more »
Honestly, I think our society does a poor jobs of socializing men for fatherhood. Parenting is still (though less so) seen as “women’s work” so there’s not much instruction for men on how to be parents. But that doesn’t mean men are bad parents or can’t be great parents. All of the professors in my department are parents and they are all very proud parents. The men are as involved as I imagine their wives are, as the wives are also all in careers. My male professors frequently talk about picking up their children from school, taking them to daycare… Read more »
Yes and you can blame the parents of any boy and society as well for reinforcing what is “women’s work” and “men’s work.” We need to change that mentality. When men grow up they should be past the influence of their parents, but even after having relationships that result in the same problems some men still don;t get it. I mean, I;ve engaged in a conversation online with a guy who tried to argue that outside work (lawncare, gutter cleaning, car washing, etc) was comparable to inside work, but I pointed out to him that outside work is not everyday… Read more »
Depends on where you live, how big your property is, etc. Outside work can be far more taxing both in time and energy than inside work. But I guess it’s nice to assume outside work is mowing once every few weeks and not doing much else, but come to where I live and you’ll be mowing once a week in heat n humidity that will drain your energy faster than 3x longer work inside. That said I grew up in a home where my dad and mum both worked and both cleaned inside and dad also did extra outside whilst… Read more »
Im sorry but it doesn’t matter where you live or if lawncare is once a week or whatever. Outside work is in no way comparable to inside work, especially given that inside work is what actually makes the household run on a daily basis. Im a homeowner so I know quite well, thank you very much, what is required of outside work. It’s a ridiculous debate because theyre simply not comparable as equal work. For one thing, this article is from women’s POV that is why it’s mostly one sided. As for generalizing, the article repeats what we already know… Read more »
But who ONLY does outside work? I saw my dad do a hell of a lot of inside work AND the outside work, infact I remember him cleaning more than my mother did whilst they both worked however when she stayed at home to do the SAHM role it was different. In the divorces I’ve heard of it’s been fairly evenly split between he was bad, and she was bad. I think divorce would be closer to 50:50 filing if there wasn’t the perception of divorce as harming the man more than the woman (whether that is true or not,… Read more »
“I think divorce would be closer to 50:50 filing if there wasn’t the perception of divorce as harming the man more than the woman (whether that is true or not, I am no expert 😉 ) If women aren’t weighed down as much with perceptions of divorce being negative to them then this will probably mean they’re more likely to divorce I’d guess. It’s important to know why they are filing, but it’s also important to know how unhappy both genders are in marriage and to find out why the men aren’t filing as much. ” Seriously? You believe that… Read more »
I was saying a popular stereotype, hence why I said Perception and not “the fact”. Divorce is individualized, who knows who is going to come off hurt, I hope it’s fair and balanced. “*sigh* Women are already taught to be better partners. That is not to say all of them are, but men are simply not taught to meet the emotional and psychological needs of their partners as are women – who are taught to provide care, comfort, etc. We should be teaching our young boys and young men how to be better partners then we’d probably have less divorce.”… Read more »
When people make comments on these types of issues, yes, of course they are generally speaking. Anyway, women are taught from a young age to be caring, considerate, compassionate, and all the other traits that are supposed to make her a good mother. That isnt to say they all grow up to remember all this crap. Young boys are simply not taught the things that would make them good fathers as they are growing up. They learn this stuff along the way, usually from watching how their parents interacted with each other and with their kids. Young girls also observe… Read more »
I remember reading articles where men complained that their girlfriends dressed like hookers. Then they were asked how they dressed when they met them. The answer was that they were dressed like hookers. How did your boyfriend’s apartment look when you dated him? Boys are taught not to fear dirt. Girls are taught that being dirty is unladylike. I clean roughly 4 times a year, do laundry about once a month, but I have over 1 months worth of clothes. When I shop for shirts, I’ll buy 10 at a time. The women I know always wonder why I buy… Read more »
Men arent judged for having a clean home and women are, therefore when the two combine their homes it is still a concern for women and not for the man. After all this time of hearing the same complaints from women men (by and large) still arent stepping up or women wouldve ceased complaining about it.
“there is a reason why a recent study concluded that divorced women are happier than married women and married men are happier than divorced/single men. It IS because men are cared for in the marriage and women, who now make their own money, want more out of their partnership then just financial security- which is why 71% of divorces are being filed by women.” When I read that I remembered a study that showed that an inordinate number if men died within a year of retirement. When you’re used to having someone tell you what to do, it’s probably a… Read more »
Men are simply not judged on the cleanliness of their homes like women are, thus cleaning is simply not important to men. Therefore when they move in with a woman, they still hold this mentality, but she knows she is being judged. It’s the 21st century, I dont understand why men dont get this by now. Men SHOULD be helping their partners with household chores simply because your partner is not your maid.
And women aren’t judged on their ability to earn an income as heavily as a male, so that explains why men prefer to be breadwinner. Men SHOULD help with household chores but I do not think they should have to go above n beyond to the point of overcleaning. People would do wonders with stopping the judgement of peoples ability to keep a clean house, provide income, parent etc, we might see a more even spread across the genders of the roles. Care to explain the messy rooms, cars, houses of women and clean rooms of men in some cases… Read more »
But the opposite is not true. Women dont (automatically) prefer to be caregivers and housekeepers, they have no choice! Also, men dont want to be caregivers and housekeepers because that is considered women’s work! Not because men simply prefer to be breadwinners. Come now. This is an issue because while women are contributing to the household finances at greater rates, a lot of households still have uneven housework. And really, forget the inside work v. outside work argument, what about people living in apartments where there is no outside work. If housework and child rearing werent considered women’s work, with… Read more »
How do you know what ALL women want? How do you know what ALL men want? “Women dont (automatically) prefer to be caregivers and housekeepers, they have no choice! ” Bullshit. Women have had choice for quite a few years now, my own mother had that choice. Time to open your eyes, I had parents that both worked, both did housework, know others who were the same. I doubt my case is a rare one. “And really, forget the inside work v. outside work argument, what about people living in apartments where there is no outside work. ” Will you… Read more »
I never said I know what all men want or what all women want so….. Someone else noted on here that the definition of a good man in the article seemed to be someone that grows up to want marriage and children, which I don’t agree with. We all choose our own path and women or men that decide not to marry or have children are not bad people or damaged or whatever. I only mentioned the inside v outside work because someone else mentioned it. Time to open your eyes, because you and I are probably about the same… Read more »
Exactly, when men start actively parenting more (the nitty gritty everyday of parenting) and are more active partners in the household and the relationship there would be less single/divorced mothers out there. It really is as simple as that.
You really blame the entire trend on men? The fact that women aren’t married? that gives men all the power, and encourages women to be the victims. The divorce rate is on the rise … FACT. Your assumption that traditional gendre role reinforcement is to blame doesn’t gel. Lets go back to the 40’s where the divorce rate was low and traditional gendre roles were strong. What has changed? If traditional gendre roles are still to blame and the number of single mothers is rising it points to at the very least the inclusion of some other societal factors. There… Read more »
I dont see why you interpret my comment as blaming men for women seeking to be mothers outside of wedlock. Also, this article doesnt address cohabitating parents, just refers to unwed mothers.
Traditional gender roles are to blame because women want their partners to be better partners and more active parents. Let’s be honest, women had been driving the marriage trend and now less people are marrying. It is what it is. Of course women are making their own choices, because they have choices now!
Exactly, when men start actively parenting more (the nitty gritty everyday of parenting) and are more active partners in the household and the relationship there would be less single/divorced mothers out there. It really is as simple as that. Yeah it will be that simple as soon as women get over the fact that there are men out there that are capable of doing that stuff and men willing to do that stuff. But why bother acknowledging them when its much more “hip” to just complain about all men by generalizing the worst ones and acting like we are all… Read more »
I dont think all men are like that, but a lot of them are. Men from younger generations are already more actively parenting than their parents. That’s a good thing.
Nice generalizations going on here, because women have it tougher and do more work am I right? The second shift was debunked, both genders put a fairly equal level of work and effort into the household.
Actually the second shift has not been debunked and I hope you arent thinking of that TIMES article. The work being done by fathers was not equal work to that of which mothers were doing. Anyway, the second shift is still alive and kicking, and we know it’s true because women partnered with men still complain of the same things. I’m not saying all men are like that and to assume I mean all men is frankly just silly.
Care to post the studies then? The only one I saw basically said outside work wasn’t worth of being included, so men had done x amount of inside work, y amount of outside work, and women did w amount of inside work. W was more than x, and only x was included in the study, yet y + x = W on average if I remember correctly. The TIMES one showed a few hours more work at office for men, few hours less for women, and few hours more for women in the home-job and few hours less for men… Read more »
The TIMES study itself didnt even compare equal household work. The study considered the father spending more leisure time with the kids as childcare. Also, just because a man works a few more hours doesnt absolve him of contributing in the home and that’s another reason why it was a poor study. Sorry, but It really was a poor study. Outside work is not comparable and shouldnt be included since not all couples with children live in a home where there is any outside work. It’s not a very good measurable variable and it doesnt keep the household running as… Read more »
Being childless, I am not in this group, but I think I can understand some of the potential mindset of these women. I love being single. It is awesome. I hang out with friends more, I am more productive in my work, I spend more time reading and pursuing hobbies, it’s pretty nice. So for me to want to couple with someone, they would have to be able to beat the awesomeness of singlehood. Which I have found, and yes, being a couple with said person is awesome. But just being in a couple, for the sake of being in… Read more »
My ex had 3 kids with “good” Catholic girl in a “good” Catholic marriage…He used to look down on his good-looking rock ‘n’ roll friend who had fathered 2 or 3 kids out of wedlock (for whom he did not contribute to financially…he could barely take care of himself)….My ex would go on a monologue about how he worked a steady job and provided the best that he could for his family…Great guy, huh? Meanwhile, my ex would ignore his family to chase me and hang out with me…with disastrous end results…I don’t know what the magic formula is but… Read more »
WRT welfare queen. A young woman in a disfunctional family in a disfunctional subculture has few options. One of them is to get pregnant, get her own case number and set up on her own. It is hard to believe that this is the issue for all, or even most, of the women being discussed in this article. They looked at marriage and decided it wasn’t for them, while having kids was. The planted axiom here is that marriage is, in some way, wanting. IMO, the possiblity is that these women aren’t marriage material. Marriage has worked for some millenia… Read more »
“The better guess is that these women don’t have the emotional maturity to get married before indulging themselves in a kid.” This is not a better guess, just another guess. Let’s face the truth, women no longer need to marry to be financially secure. If that is all society thinks men have to offer then less women will not get married and still have children, if they want to go it alone. When men start actively parenting more it is likely society’s ideas of the father’s role will change. That still doesnt mean the marriage rate will soar again, but… Read more »
Being a good man means finding someone to settle down with and start a family? I don’t think so. That’s a choice not a requirement. And the Times is now pro- family and pro-marriage? What next? I can hardly wait.
Good point, obviously there are a lot of young women who dont seek to be a mother so the same can (logically) be assumed of men as well. But funny you brought that up because it proves that men are just as susceptible to the socialization of traditional gender roles as are women.
Truthfully .. I think that after many generations telling our young men that there is no true value in the role of fatherhood. We have finally convinced them it is so.
“I think that after many generations telling our young men that there is no true value in the role of fatherhood. We have finally convinced them it is so.” Isnt it traditional gender roles learned from religion (mainly Christianity) that have socialized men into limited roles as parents? Who do you think has been teaching men their roles as fathers are limited? Probably the men in their lives! And the women in their lives (mothers) who also subscribed to traditional gender roles. Co-parenting is prevalent today in the younger generations. Men should be and are (in younger generations especially) actively… Read more »
What sticks out to me about the article is that women say all of these things about men, but they still get pregnant by so-called losers. Save for cases of rape, women are, to borrow the term, women control these outcomes. They control whether sex occurs and, thus, conception. So we’re talking about how all of these guys suck, yet children are still being created even with this knowledge on the table.
Well, just because they don’t want the father doesn’t mean they don’t want the child. Totally different people. Also, it is possible that the relationship ended after the child was conceived/born. People change their minds and realize things about other people.
That’s when many men realize that their decisions as a couple are not 50/50. They get screwed over in family court and interfering with child visitation in Illinois is equivalent to receiving a traffic ticket, which is not much of a deterrent even if a man is willing to move Heaven and Earth to get it charged.
“They control whether sex occurs and, thus, conception” This is obviously part of the problem since guys still believe this, but in fact it is men who are in complete control of when or when not they have children. Men should wear condoms all the time, period. Unless they are in a committed relationship, both partners have been tested for STIs and both agree on contraception. The onus for contraception being on women is only because there are no options available to men beyond the condom but this method is the ONLY contraceptive that protects both partners against STIs. Hormonal… Read more »
I know of very educated, stable, lovely, and pretty single women who were in around 30…early 30’s…who got fed up with waiting years to get a ring on their finger — who went ahead and started a family with the man or without him in their lives. They raised their babies as single mothers — their kids bring them joy and company and even perhaps replaces male companionship! The love from young children are unwavering and unconditional —this they can count on; men not so much :p There are men i know of who think women can should have no… Read more »
Was it all the man’s fault in making them wait or was there other issues that delayed a family? I’d say one of the biggest problems is financial security, I know of very few people under 30 who have financial stability, a decent home to raise a child in, who have found a decent partner and fallen in love even. It’s a major responsibility to have a child and I believe many people realize this and hold off, hell many just want to enjoy their 20’s. Lower the cost of living and you might see more children being born, childcare… Read more »
In Europe and Asian, South Asian countries and families…there are a couple of generations of family living underneath the same roof. This model / family structure provides financial security for everyone and allow couples to have children at the right stage of life, to save up and share household responsibilities and childcare. There’s also the other model, where adult children live at home, contribute financially…but not as much as renting somewhere else…until they save up enough to move out or to start a family. Here in western societies, we want to move out…be “independent” quickly…because everyone is judging our “independence”… Read more »
I know of very educated, stable, lovely, and pretty single women who were in around 30…early 30′s…who got fed up with waiting years to get a ring on their finger
So inorder to dump on us men, you decide to infantilise these women.
These “very educated, stable, lovely, and pretty single women ” had absolutely no role in not being married?
Didnt these “very educated, stable, lovely, and pretty single women” have any agency at all, are they that passive?
One of the woman rented an apartment for her and her boyfriend to live as a family…paying for everything. He was divorced and living at home with his parents. And from what I recalled…he refused to come live with her or marry her…even after like 5 years of dating. Sometimes when a woman is approaching her 30s or in her 30s and have invested 5 years of her life with a man — she will try to get pregnant and have his baby…because honestly —life is short; dating is no fun…providing free milk and getting used and tossed is no… Read more »
There are families who make it everyday…with very little means…think of immigrant families; they arrive with nothing. NOT a THING. My parents had nothing but the clothes on their back. It’s time to stop with the excuses.
Indeed it is time for you to stop with the excuses, as your own words above show. Those women could have married if they had really wanted too. Poor penniless immigrants manage to get married, you yourself said that
Huh? I said immigrant FAMILIES…that means married with kids and not single immigrants which you’ve misconstrued for. You know EXACTLY what I meant. Quit pretending to not know and deliberating manipulating what I’ve posted; twisting my words against me. MRAs have a bad habit of doing this; I’ve noticed this often.
“Those women could have married if they had really wanted too.”
yeah, I think these women already tried holding a gun to their boyfriends’ heads…evidently that didn’t work.
The bullet would have been a cleaner, less painful death. Sorry, just had to say it.
Please don’t assume because the man had a doctorate he can provide for a family, or even himself. There are many underemployed and unemployed doctorate holders, not just in the US but abroad too. The idea that someone can find a high-paying job with a doctorate is a common misconception that reveals a lack of sensitivity to the realities of the economy and the job market. Many people with a graduate degree or a professional degree such as a JD cannot find work in their field. I am not saying that it was the case for the man in question,… Read more »
My parents don’t even have highschool diplomas …came over with NOT a THING…and with a bunch of us rugrats in tow; after just TWO years in Canada, a new house and a brand new car. All of us children either have college diplomas or university Degrees (except one, mental illness). “Many people with a graduate degree or a professional degree such as a JD cannot find work in their field.” yeah? i feel very sorry for you. Not. No more excuses!!! Women are soooo “clingy”!!! We need static guard!!! After 2 – 5, even 10 years with someone…now find out… Read more »
MichelleG, Maybe your idea of clingy and our idea is quite different. It has everything to do with the level of wanting to be with someone, excessive amounts would be clingy. And people do change in relationships, after 2-5 years you can have the initial lust blinding people or the person may grow depressed and their NEED for their partner to be around could increase. People do vary quite a lot at times, and clingyness generally indicates a problem such as a very low self esteem and possibly depression. There are limits to the level of cuddling people can do… Read more »
“…clingyness generally indicates a problem such as a very low self esteem and possibly depression.”
Oh please. I don’t buy that. If you need a lot of space…that is your prerogative to communicate your needs upfront — be fair and respect your partner.
“Clingy” is more often used by men…usually when the lust fades…and they want their single life back. Meanwhile women are feeling romantic and think they are showering you with love and attention, but it’s not reciprocated anymore…they are “clingy”. Women are CLINGONS — run for your lives!
We’re going to have to agree to disagree, you’re generalizing badly over what women are feeling and don’t seem to understand that it INCREASES past lust to the point of obsession. It’s not showering you with love and attention, it’s SMOTHERING. Big difference, extremely big difference and you’re the first person I’ve talked to that hasn’t understood this. If you’re trying to say some people use clingy as an excuse then so be it, but clingy generally means something quite negative and it isn’t romantic to the other person. Extreme amount = clingy, average amount of showing love and attention… Read more »
Thank you Reese, I was about to say the same thing. I am pursuing my PhD and I know very well that I will not be rich as a professor. I will end up making about the same amount that my brother does as a police officer with a bachelor’s degree. So the level of your degree does not necessarily indicate a higher salary.
“There are families who make it everyday…with very little means…think of immigrant families; they arrive with nothing. NOT a THING. My parents had nothing but the clothes on their back. It’s time to stop with the excuses.” And there are many families in poverty these days where the risk of crime is increased and other problems occur. Wanting financial stability before having child is not an excuse, it’s an intelligent idea and depends on people’s personal situations. Not everyone wants a family and that is why communication needs to happen but maybe they need to expand their dating pool to… Read more »
My sister-in-law’s sister, adopted a baby from China…the whole process for their daughter and adoption process cost them over $30,000. The sister was too old (near 40) and used too much contraception which caused infertility. Luckily they are financially well off so they can adopt…not sure if they’ll adopt again, as it’s very expensive!
“used too much contraception which caused infertility”
How did that happen?
I think her doctor told her, her infertility was caused from too many decades on contraception. If you think about it, if she started trying to have kids at 40, that meant she would have been on birth control for about 20 years. Ideally women should have kids before they’re 30 or early 30s. But there are studies that say 25 years of age is peak fertility for females. The sister lives in a huge house with her husband…like a million dollar house. They spent years planning and saving up for a nice big house to show off and be… Read more »
It’s dishonesty and lack of integrity that are the problems. Women know how to communicate!
Please please please stop generalizing that women know how to communicate. It’s annoying especially when I have known plenty that are absolutely terrible at communication. Say SOME of these men, or SOME of these women, unless you know every single man and woman it’s impossible to generalize so badly. I could go on n on about how some women think they communicate but they use such vague wording or rely on the other person to have a similar style of speech that they understand. The men are from mars, women are from venus books were made for the stereotypical male… Read more »
You talk about dishonesty and claim that women know how to communicate. Then why did you cite and example where the woman doesn’t tell her boyfriend of 5 years that if he doesn’t commit to marriage she’s leaving, but instead tricks him into getting her pregnant? Doesn’t look like she wanted to communicate and it seems that she was dishonest.
Something in that story doesn’t sound right. She was sleeping with this guy for 5 years, has his child then breaks up with him. It sounds like she told him that she was on the pill and then got off without telling him. Maybe something in her demeanor told him that she was selfish and so he was hesitant to marry her. His instincts were probably correct the way you describe it. She didn’t seem to care about what he wanted.
OK, so he was divorced and living with his parents.
I wonder, Did getting divorced cost so much that he had no choice but to live with his parents. If so I wonder why he wouldn’t want to get married again
I know of very educated, stable, lovely, and pretty single women who were in around 30…early 30′s…who got fed up with waiting years to get a ring on their finger… So because those women got tired of waiting for a man to come along and “put a ring on it” its proof that men can’t be counted on? Its interesting that people will declare men as a whole “not ready for family life”, “afraid of commitment”, etc… while at the same time actively dismissing the ones that are looking for those same things. And speaking of Hollywood standards and drama… Read more »
“Its interesting that people will declare men as a whole “not ready for family life”, “afraid of commitment”, etc… while at the same time actively dismissing the ones that are looking for those same things.” I think I saw somewhere that more men than women now have said they are interested in marriage. In my own experiences, I have not seen a gender gap in marriage desires. So yes, if you are a woman who is interested in marriage, there are men out there interested in marriage also. We really need to start encourage women to stop being passive in… Read more »
“The love from young children are unwavering and unconditional —this they can count on; men not so much :p” And so, who cares if the children suffer? It’s all what is best for the mothers. “I know of very educated, stable, lovely, and pretty single women who were in around 30…early 30′s…who got fed up with waiting years to get a ring on their finger” Women need to be assertive in what they want. Why wait years? I know someone who married a woman in his 30s because he realized that he was happier with her than without her. Maybe… Read more »
“Women didn’t lower their standards. They fought over a shrinking pool of eligible bachelors. Women demand men who can out earn them and gave sex away for attention. Then they wonder why they’re not married.” Wide generalizations there. Also, why should people be lowering their standards? Marriage is a very big commitment, why should anyone have to lower their standards just to find someone to reproduce with and be miserable with? What is this with the giving sex away for attention? Were those men they were having sex with also giving sex away for attention? It’s not the 1950’s, women… Read more »
He’s pointing out that the standards are increasing beyond reasonable since less and less men are going to college and this is a problem for the college women. If many of a group have a standard of X and x becomes rarer and rarer than there will be a shortage, in this case the way to fix X is either get these women to change their standards or do something about the education gap for men. IF (that’s a big if) women want men who outearn them, then either men have to work longer/get paid more/ and/or women do the… Read more »
“Women didn’t lower their standards. They fought over a shrinking pool of eligible bachelors. Women demand men who can out earn them and gave sex away for attention. Then they wonder why they’re not married. Wide generalizations there.” That was the conclusion that the article I read drew, not personal observation, but I’ve read other articles that drew similar conclusions. A more recent article I found while looking for the one I read a while back supports you and Archy’s contention. “Faced with a shrinking pool of men on their level, some young women are settling and marrying “down,” but… Read more »
We know women arent lowering their standards because less people are marrying. Women were driving the marriage trend, not men. And because women dont benefit from marriage in the way that men do, less women are marrying now. Studies have concluded that married women are less happy than single women (and divorced women are happier than married women) and married men are happier than single/divorced men.
If women are flying to other cities to find a date, that’s a clear indication that they are not settling.
I don’t agree with that welfare queen characterization either. I don’t doubt that there are many unwed mothers who are on welfare. I don’t think that they got pregnant to be on welfare, but Tom may have a point if he meant that they are unwed to get or stay on welfare. I know of cases where women have claimed that their children’s father abandoned them to get emergency temporary assistance.
Lile Archy said, do these statistics take into account the shift in our culture toward starting families without getting married? More and more couples are choosing to by-pass that option for a variety of reasons. Especially couples in their 20s. So perhaps the data set used here is operating on an out-moded set of assumptions. In the other hand, this data may reflect the explosion of Peter Pan syndrome, men who just refuse to grow up often well into their 30s. This is true of many women too, but biologically women are more physically prepared to be pregnant and give… Read more »
You have used the term “Peter Pan Syndrome” non-sarcastically, therefore your comment is invalid.
Shouldn’t this headline read: “The Majority of PARENTS Under 30 Now Unwed” ?
I agree with Justin, Tom. Stick to the evidence when you’re talking about people who have less social and economic power than you do. Don’t just repeat what you hear on Fox News. I also wouldn’t take this trend at face value; the picture on the ground is much more complicated than this simple graph suggests, and there are many counter-trends. My wife and I were not married when we became parents, and we took our time getting to the altar. It just wasn’t that important to us. We’re pretty typical: Many new studies are finding that young people increasingly… Read more »
“And to make it even more complicated: As marriage rates decline, men as a group are spending more time with children.”
Women want their partners to become more active fathers and given that it was women driving the marriage trend I am glad that the decline has resulted in fathers spending more time with their kids.
Don’t keep reproducing the false, harmful trope of the welfare queen. That is what you’re doing when you say, without a shred of evidence, that women get pregnant while poor and unmarried *on purpose, to collect benefits.* Have you ever been on state benefits while pregnant? Do you think it’s worth it? I have, and I will tell you that it is not.