Open Discussion:
What do you think? Are you able to be more honest with you’re just with guys? What is it about having women present—be it in real life or online—that makes it harder to be honest?
Are there different things you can discuss with men more than women? Are there things you find easier to discuss with women?
Are The Avengers less honest when Black Widow is around?
“Are men less honest when women are around?”
If so, it’s because women have trained them to be that way. Anyone who punishes honesty has no right to complain about being lied to, ever again.
Um, no. You could possibly argue that society has socialized most men in such a way that they end up being less honest around women, but it’s not because “women trained them to be that way.” Everyone is socialized and that means everyone has been taught to restrict their behaviour in certain ways, and that may include men being taught it’s better to be less honest with women about certain topics.
That’s some pretty heavy victimization right there. So, according to you, men are powerless, shapeless creatures that women can form at will? Men have no personal responsibility? And men have no role in deciding who and what they are?
Okay one more comment: I think this questions is far too gender essentialist. I mean, if there is some truth to the idea that a group of men will often change their behaviour when a woman join in, I think there is a lot more to consider than just their perceived gender. Does it matter whether the woman is cis or trans? Does sexual orientation have any effect? Would a group of gay men react the same way to a woman joining a group? How about a group of straight men and a lesbian? Or a group of gay men… Read more »
I’ve had a few lesbian friends and for what it’s worth, they’re just one of the guys. The only possible exception is that they usually initiate the conversations about hot girls so there might be an initial lag time where we don’t associate her with one of the guys. I don’t have any openly gay friends. I have a friend who I think is bisexual, but we never asked because we don’t care. His brother is openly gay, but doesn’t hang out with us. I don’t think that a silent openly gay man would change the conversation much (except that… Read more »
Okay couple of comments on this question: First, why bring The Avengers into it? I mean I reference how cinema and t.v. can reflect real life often, but this seems like too direct a comparison, and done a little backwards. Asking about one specific piece of media when discussing cultural norms is a bit odd. Anyway, as for whether the men in Avengers are more dishonest when around Black Widow, I’d say no…actually the opposite. She’s an interrogator…she gets everyone to tell the truth. Also, Joss Whedon wrote the script and directed it…it’s pretty safe to assume that the interactions… Read more »
Speaking just for myself, obviously, I find I’m more honest and at ease around women. When I’m around men, there’s always this element of competition: who’s the tallest, the smartest, the toughest, who can one-up the other guys better. I don’t like it, but I get drawn into it every damn time. A lot of you guys can probably relate to that problem: you know the competition is stupid and pointless, but damned if you’ll let someone else win it, right? Around women or in a more mixed group, the competition eases and I can relax more, be more honest.… Read more »
“I don’t like it, but I get drawn into it every damn time. A lot of you guys can probably relate to that problem: you know the competition is stupid and pointless, but damned if you’ll let someone else win it, right?” I’ve been with a group that competed all the time and I’ve been with a group that doesn’t compete. I actually don’t see any less competition from the competitive group when women were around. That may have actually made it worse since the women were pretty competitive too. The men and women weren’t competing against each other because… Read more »
What i’ve noticed is that *groups of men* behave very different if there’s women around. A group of men can have one dynamic, but as soon as a woman enters the room, the dynamic changes; suddenly the men are trying to show off, impress the women, make themselves stand out as the best pick. And since this to some extend is a mask, honesty is probably a victim. Likewise, groups of women will compete when there’s a man around. In my observation this is group behaviour. A woman may be one person when you have her alone, but change dramatically… Read more »
Even without the competition factor – say, the woman who is present among the men is already spoken for and “off the market” – I’ve noticed men clean up their language and behavior a bit when a woman joins the group. It reminds me of how kids will horseplay or rough each other up on the playground until an adult is present. Maybe it’s not always about competition – maybe sometimes the reaction comes from a fear of “getting in trouble” with the woman. I can see this especially if the woman is intimidating or in some position of power.… Read more »
“In other words, to be very very simplistic about it, there are two primary female roles in a man’s worldview: mate, and mother. A man, or group of men, may revert to their “best behavior” when there’s a potential mate around…or, a potential “mother” who can punish them.” I know you acknowledged that is very simplistic, but I ‘d say that’s simplistic enough to be inaccurate. How does this pertain to gay cis-men? No to mention the way this seems to revert back to the old Harry Met Sally “men and women can’t be friends,” mantra, which is such rubbish.… Read more »
That depends on how well I know the women and what is being discussed. I won’t talk about sex in front of women unless she’s the woman I’m having sex with and no one else is around. I won’t talk about committing violence or legally dubious or unethical acts in front of women. My choice of words is impacted when women are around. I could show more fear or uncertainty in front of guys. A friend’s brother died and I remember us guys comforting each other in our grief, but I also remember holding his sister and trying to be… Read more »
Karate class with all men is quite the learning experience…every sentence is punctuated with one of the 7 deadly words….after learning karate for 3 years, I have gotten much closer to the guys in class….when my sensei lost his job and went on unemployment for a few months, he did not so much as tell us as he acted out his extreme irritability and frustration….sometimes he would come in drunk (usually Thursday evenings) and want to judo wrestle the other guys to the ground….sometimes passing spectators would look in on us alarmed, but I had to cover for them and… Read more »
When I took taekwondo, we had to promise to respect our classmates, respect women and defend women and the weak as a condition of entering the dojang. Respect and concern for your classmates and opponents are very important in a combat sport. Trust factored in a lot when we were practicing trapping techniques. You didn’t want to snap an arm or someone else’s. That’s why I always hated sparring one of the two women who were in our class. Talk about dishonest. I could never bring myself to come at them hard. “to earn the brown belt, sensei says I… Read more »
Our style of karate is Uechi Ryu, which emphasizes close contact with your opponent….as a green belt doing kyu kumite (pre-arranged sparring), if you are the defender, you step back when the attacker makes the first punch….now sensei wants the defender to step FORWARD and block, instead of stepping back (for the brown belt)….as a petite female going up against a tall (5’11”) and sweaty male Hispanic sparring partner, I can feel panic rising up when I stand face to face with my opponent (I have to focus on his chin and throat area…it is too distracting and unnerving for… Read more »
Are you able to be more honest with you’re just with guys? In some cases yes. What is it about having women present—be it in real life or online—that makes it harder to be honest? Previous experience where being honest around women didn’t work out. (I’m sure this would be the case with anyone who is more honest with X’s than with Y’s, fill in as you see fit.) Are there different things you can discuss with men more than women? Yes. Are there things you find easier to discuss with women? Not really in my experience. Are The Avengers… Read more »
Honest? Not sure if that is the right word. I think men talk about different things or might speak differently when he is around other men but it is still circumstantial.
I feel more comfortable saying certain things around my male friends then I do just some random guys I just met or don’t really know. I am more apt to make crude jokes around my own sisters than I am around most men.
So for me it less about the gender and more about the comfort level.
Yes and no. I’m far more open with the guys about “masculine” interests like sports, sexual interests, attraction to women, hot women, crude jokes, and other things like that, but I’m more honest and open about emotional stuff with women.