We would like to talk about men’s reproductive rights.
Fatherhood, and the role of fathers has been in the media a lot lately. And with Father’s Day right around the corner, many different topics of discussion are being played out in the media. One such discussion, brought to our attention through a New York Times opinion piece asks the question, “Is forced fatherhood fair?”
Professor Laurie Shrage points out that, “In places where women and girls have access to affordable and safe contraception and abortion services, and where there are programs to assist mothers in distress find foster or adoptive parents, voluntary motherhood is basically a reality.” But what about men?
If a man accidentally conceives a child with a woman, and does not want to raise the child with her, what are his choices? Surprisingly, he has few options in the United States. He can urge her to seek an abortion, but ultimately that decision is hers to make. Should she decide to continue the pregnancy and raise the child, and should she or our government attempt to establish him as the legal father, he can be stuck with years of child support payments.
The political philosopher Elizabeth Brake has argued that our policies should give men who accidentally impregnate a woman more options, and that feminists should oppose policies that make fatherhood compulsory. In a 2005 article in the Journal of Applied Philosophy she wrote, “if women’s partial responsibility for pregnancy does not obligate them to support a fetus, then men’s partial responsibility for pregnancy does not obligate them to support a resulting child.” At most, according to Brake, men should be responsible for helping with the medical expenses and other costs of a pregnancy for which they are partly responsible.
Don’t like ads? Become a supporter and enjoy The Good Men Project ad freeFew feminists, including Brake, would grant men the right to coerce a woman to have (or not to have) an abortion, because they recognize a woman’s right to control her own body. However, if a woman decides to give birth to a child without securing the biological father’s consent to raise a child with her, some scholars and policy makers question whether he should be assigned legal paternity.
We would like to know what you think?
What reproductive rights do you think men have right now, and are those equitable?
Should men be granted more decision making power over when and how they become parents?
And how can this control be balanced with and complement a woman’s right to her own reproductive autonomy?
Photo: Josh Parrish/Flickr
interesting…
When abortion became legal the responsibility shifted dramatically with CONTINUATION of pregnancy. Before abortion the responsibility of childbirth was a 50:50 mix of man and woman and the responsibility for the child being born was 50:50. Now with abortion the responsibility for conception remains the same but continuation of the pregnancy is 100% her choice as she can choose to take the morning after pill and/or abortion. He has absolutely zero say in this matter legally, at best he can ask her to respect his wishes but she can act selfishly as is her right to keep the child since… Read more »
Fatherhood is just more than money no one is forcing a man to raise a child he does not want to; the law just force him to pay child support; so the question should be; Should child support be forced in unwanted pregnancies? No it should NOT, neither should he have future rights if he change his mind, he should not oppose to give the child for adoption if she decides to do so, neither should he force her to keep the child because of his religious views. He’s off the hook – it was just an unwanted sperm donation,… Read more »
Nah, he has easier options: having sex but not having intercourse. Negotiating away all responsibility for any children resulting from sex is irresponsible in itself: it just encourages stupid promiscuity, and in an era where that’s a really bad idea anyway from a public health point of view. The possibility of reproduction needs to be taken more seriously than that.
Here is a gender limitation that could be addressed by legislation, which I think men and women could support regardless of ideology. Since men can’t normally lactate, allow a tax credit for the purchase of baby formula. It should help some mothers too. When you talk about responsibility, that could encompass many different things for example, what responsibility do women who are pregnant have to not smoke or drink? If a woman engages in such behavior is that child abuse if she eventually gives birth and the child suffers lasting effects from the behavior? After birth, do fathers (and mothers)… Read more »
Nah, he has easier options: having sex but not having intercourse. Negotiating away all responsibility for any children resulting from sex is irresponsible in itself: it just encourages stupid promiscuity, and in an era where that’s a really bad idea anyway from a public health point of view. The possibility of reproduction needs to be taken more seriously than that.
ive read usa antiabortionists say the same thing about women and abortion
Sounds like getting a secret vasectomy is the way to go. Extra insurance against the oopsie baby, whether truly accidental or not.
Or only having sex with people who can’t get pregnant. Only post-hysterectomy women, for example. Or men.
I’m curious how the legal responsibility works for sperm donors to fertility clinics. I honestly don’t know the answer. Presumably a sperm donor to a fertility clinic is able to waive legal liability and legal custody for any children conceived with his sperm, and that’s clearly a case where he intends to get someone pregnant. There’s no accidental pregnancy there, and he gets protection from the consequences of someone clearly choosing to get pregnant. In fact, the whole process is dependent on some legal insulation against the biological father. If that’s the case, then it seems like a precedent for… Read more »
What reproductive rights do you think men have right now, and are those equitable? After everything I have read here, it sounds like a very disheartening no 🙁 Should men be granted more decision making power over when and how they become parents? YES. Definitely YES! I completely agree with Brake when she says “if women’s partial responsibility for pregnancy does not obligate them to support a fetus, then men’s partial responsibility for pregnancy does not obligate them to support a resulting child.” It is completely unfair for a woman to be able to opt out of parenthood via adoption… Read more »
My son has a right to have a father. Whether or not I’m married to the father, whether or not either of us wanted kids, whether or not we like it – we are each parents, and that child has rights to have parents. What about when same-sex parents use artificial means to have children and those children will probably not have an opposite-sex parent in their lives? Or what about when some women deliberately choose to be single parents from the outset? Like Murphy Brown did. Hers happened then, too – though it is a sad fact of biology… Read more »
Sorry – unless the man was forced, coerced or tricked into providing sperm, he is not an involuntary father. (Neither is the woman an involuntary mother, but that’s not what this discussion os about). With or without the best contraception available, parenthood is a possibility every time and man and a woman have intercourse. If you really do not want to be a father, don’t have sex. (Mothers, too). Once a child is born, both parents have responsibilities; however, over-riding any parental responsibility is the CHILD’S right to his/her parents. My son has a right to have a father. Whether… Read more »
Well, you *can* have sex without intercourse: that’s what oral and manual sex are for. You just have to be careful about where that sperm goes (like: nowhere near her lap!).
” It is a limitation of gender, really, and it cannot be legislated away. Sorry” Limitations of gender are legislated away all the time (some hyperbole involved). The FBI requires men to do 30 untimed pushups and women 15. Title IX essentially mandates separate sports teams because it requires proportions of women to match men in athletics. Why don’t “limitations of gender” dictate what happens? Have one or two basketball teams and let whoever is best play on them. I don’t know if you’ can use legislation to eliminate the gender limitations, however, why should it nit be used to… Read more »
NY times ahead of the game in the mainstream. People should not continue to believe that its a woman’s right to force life on a child and fatherhood on a man, without willing consent. Every child deserves to be wanted by both parents. That’s one of the elephants in the room with discussions around absent fathers and “deadbeat dads”. Karen DeCrow, old school feminst has said it best “If women have the right to choose if they become parents, men [should] have that right too. There is a connection between legalizing abortion for women and ending of paternity suits for… Read more »
My biggest problem with all of the discussions about “what reproduction rights men have,” is that they almost always treat abortion as a simple, easy to access answer. Women can get an abortion; it’s EASY! Even in places where access to abortion isn’t restricted by all sorts of legal restrictions…and even in places where access to abortion is fairly easy (unlike plenty of U.S. states where there are all sorts of hoops one has to jump through to get an abortion), it’s still NOT EASY. I am a staunch believer in the idea that a fetus is not a human… Read more »
Also, speaking of child support, let’s look at the statistics of enforcement. About 41% of of the custodial single parents in 2010 received all of the child support they were owed. The average amount of money per child owed was around $5,900. The average amount of money received was around $3,600 (that’s about 61%). About 29% of custodial parents received none of the money that they were due.
So, it appears as though child support is not the ‘big brother,’ enforced fatherhood boogeyman everyone makes it out to be.
http://www.census.gov/prod/2011pubs/p60-240.pdf
I think the reason its treated like a boogeyman is because unlike most other forms of debt not paying child support (regardless of the reason mind you) can actually get you sent to jail/prison. Also there is the issue of how exactly the noncustodial parent that is not paying child support is portrayed. Most of the time the protrayal is either a big suit making 7 figures or a low income guy, both bragging that they don’t pay. Which if course this creates the nice and neat image that the only reason child support is not paid is because men… Read more »
Which is a crap thing to shame someone for since it’s not even their responsibility in the first place.
I’m just curious to know how you figure it’s “not even their responsibility in the first place”??
Ethically responsiblity is the result choice, men have no say in the choice to have a child, so ethically they have no responsibility for it.
The current laws assume that they do, but those laws are dinosaurs left over from when women didn’t have a choice either and the important decision that lead to having a child was taken at an earlier point.
There are consequences to every action…when you chose to engage in sex you are taking the chance that you may either get, or get someone else pregnant. There is a level of personal responsibility there that begins even before conception. So unless you have some type of contract or agreement that outlines what will be done if your choice results in pregnancy you are still partially responsible.
That is how it used to be when pregnancy naturally led to child birth. Now that is no longer the case. it’s the woman’s choice whether it does. There for the ethical responsibility is solely hers.
That argument would work if it were truly that easy to just decided whether or not to carry a pregnancy to term, like a yes or no question, but since that is not the case your argument is not valid. Also, you seem to be implying that every child born now is simply by the choice of the mother, which is also not the case. The man still makes the initial choice to have sex with the woman and that still carries a level of personal responsibility. You are trying to put all of the weight of the consequences on… Read more »
Also, a CHILD is significantly more than an “ethical responsibility!!” They are human beings, completely innocent, defenseless human beings who are not at fault for being born so punishing them, because the GROWN-UPS can’t take responsibility for their GROWN-UP choices and actions is disgusting, whether male or female.
That argument would work if it were truly that easy to just decided whether or not to carry a pregnancy to term What are you referring to? Legal or violent obstructions that prevent a person from terminating a pregnancy? Or are you referring to emotional, social, and psychological turmoil? If there actually are things like the former, then that does violate a woman’s unilateral reproductive autonomy. However, things like the emotional and psychological turmoil and social pressure beset lots of decisions in life, not just sexual and reproductive ones. And that by itself does not mean that those decisions become… Read more »
totally disagree with you, here.
There are consequences to every action…when you chose to engage in sex you are taking the chance that you may either get, or get someone else pregnant. But the feminist movement has argued that a person who is pregnant is entitled to the use of whatever medical and legal means to end or minimize the consequence of pregnancy and that the choice to copulate does not constitute a choice to get pregnant or become a parent which can be coercively enforced. If such a decision is supposed to be unilateral, as the feminists say it should be, then the liability… Read more »
I never once said I agree with the “feminist movement” on any of this! I don’t think having a child IS a unilateral decision at all and have never argued that. A woman who chooses to have sex is taking the same “risk” of getting pregnant as the man who is “risking” getting her pregnant. It’s about accepting personal responsibility for your choices and actions, whether long or short term. If you are “adult” enough to decided to have sex with a person then you need to be “adult” enough to accept responsibility for the consequences that may result from… Read more »
Really? So you think another person should have some degree of power to veto or block a person’s decisions about her pregnancy?
Hold on. I wouldn’t say that it’s not their responsibility (unless of course you want to go into the territory of men being ordered to pay support for children where its been proven they are not the biological father, which is also a real problem).
The problem is when the “face” of the non paying father is intentionally made out to be a guy that takes joy in avoiding a responsibility that he should be fulfilling. It’s a problem because it ignores the reality of men that cannot pay for legitimate reasons.
One other complaint I hear and it affects the high earning non-custodial parent most often is that there is no requirement for child support to be spent for the benefit of the child. If a guy spends $500 / month in child support for a grade schooler, it’s different than spending $500 a month on an infant. Diapers and formula don’t cost that much. It’s also different if a guy spends $5,000 / month in child support. Tell me it’s all going to the kid. In any other situation where funds were misappropriated for personal benefit, it would warrant criminal… Read more »
Actually, diapers and formula are quite expensive! And if you have a child with any kind of allergies you could be spending anywhere from $50-100 a can. A regular can of formula runs anywhere from $15-20/can. And babies go through more than a can a week, easily! Diapers, the inexpensive Wal-Mart brand cost more than $20 for a box of about 120 (the price stays about the same but the amount in the box goes down as the size goes up). Newborns can use up to 10 diapers a day, sometimes more. Again if your child has any kind of… Read more »
@ Kathryn Situations vary. I’ve heard a mother complain that the $37 a week she gets isn’t enough and that was in a divorce situation where both parents decided to have the children, a boy and a girl. There was also a case where a guy had like 30 kids and one woman got $2 a week in support, but with 30 kids, how much would you think he could pay? I also know a guy who’s ex has three kids with three different “high earning” men and he’s convinced that she took up baby making as an occupation. She… Read more »
Not only are diapers, formula, baby clothes, strollers, playpens, and everything else you need to raise an infant not cheap, but child care has to factor in there somewhere, because a single mom is either still going to school or has to earn a living somehow, and other family members who could babysit while she’s at work or in class may not be available. Good child care is HORRIBLY expensive. That $500 can be gone in a *blink.* And there would be virtually no accidental or unwanted children to argue about if everyone practiced proper birth control, didn’t sleep around… Read more »
Once the child is born, however, neither of the parents’ rights is as important as the child’s rights. EVER. If a woman doesn’t think herself ready to be a mother but can’t or won’t get an abortion, she can place the child for adoption; that doesn’t negate the father’s right to raise the child, if he wants it — even if she places the child up for adoption, he can petition to be given the child. Does she owe him that opportunity? Yes. And if he doesn’t want to raise the child himself, then he shouldn’t have much say in… Read more »
Oh, but I *am* saying that, too: If she doesn’t want children, she too has to be responsible about birth control or keep her pants zipped. No excuse, unless there was rape or birth control failed. The option of adoption isn’t for her sake, it’s for the sake of the child who’s already here. That doesn’t absolve her in any way. If she didn’t want to raise a child and there was no rape or birth control failure, then yes, it’s her fault as much as his that there is a child over whom to argue about rights. If she’s… Read more »
It’s not like giving up the child to adoption dumps all the responsibility on the biological father; ‘removing herself from all responsibilities,’… Which of course is another can of worms where when the father does want to be in the child’s life and raise them the mother can then use adoption as a way to prevent him from doing so. Truth be told part of my problem is that when it comes to parenting mothers have a level of control over deciding not just her role in the child’s life but the father’s role that goes way beyond, “her body,… Read more »
Rare, but they do happen.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/7024930/ns/health-sexual_health/t/sperm-gift-keeps-giving/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/02/layne-hardin-sperm-toby-devall_n_2796503.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2056875/Liz-Jones-baby-craving-drove-steal-husbands-sperm-ultimate-deception.html#ixzz1cfjoCsJ1
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1392045/Man-ordered-pay-100-000-children-ex-wife-tricks-clinic-using-frozen-sperm.html
Even when male persons who were raped still have to pay child support for any resulting offspring.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1996-12-22/features/9612220045_1_pay-child-support-child-support-behalf
http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2008/08/16/janecrane.ART_ART_08-16-08_B1_T0B1RSR.html
http://24.123.107.252/blackbelt_kf/Case_Text_Kan/252K646.pdf
The fact that there are exceptions doesn’t negate the norm. And law made based on anecdote or rare exceptions is likely to be bad law. Should men who were raped be responsible for child support? Of course not. Proving male rape is harder, though (blame nature for that), and there are men who would claim rape where there wasn’t any if they could avoid paying child support. None of which is the norm. The norm is people screwing, and then screwing up by producing an unintended pregnancy — which is why human beings of both genders need to be a… Read more »
And law made based on anecdote or rare exceptions is likely to be bad law. Well, we are constantly told that certain kinds of abortion should be legal and on demand for things like pregnancies caused by rape, ectopic pregnancies, third trimester lethal complications, etc. Should men who were raped be responsible for child support? Of course not. Proving male rape is harder, though (blame nature for that), and there are men who would claim rape where there wasn’t any if they could avoid paying child support. If you go with the strict liability standard of “once a child is… Read more »
Of course not. Proving male rape is harder, though (blame nature for that)…I have to disgaree with that a bit.
While biology can make it harder to prove female against male rape I think we are at a point where biology is now just a crutch for the cultural belief that “rape is something that men do to women”. Yes that belief may have basis in biology but its far stronger than that now.
@Danny, rape is hard to prove no matter what because it’s an act that has the same physical actions as a very fun and widely enjoyed activity (casual sex). One body part touchs, rubs another so it can become a he said she said situation (or he he, she she, etc). Something like a physical punchup leaves bruises more often and has no activity that is regularly done consenting which would leave such injuries so it’s much more cut n dry to try that case.
@ webdiva “but child care has to factor in there somewhere, because a single mom is either still going to school or has to earn a living somehow, and other family members who could babysit while she’s at work or in class may not be available.” Except that no factors in a man’s life should be factored in. He can’t stop a woman from giving birth or terminate his parental responsibilities regardless of how little money he makes or whether he has the time to raise a child. The problem men are having with this is that society ON:Y looks… Read more »
@ Webdiva “she can place the child for adoption; that doesn’t negate the father’s right to raise the child, if he wants it — even if she places the child up for adoption, he can petition to be given the child. Does she owe him that opportunity? Yes. ” And if he’s given that opportunity does she then owe him child support? If everything should be done to the benefit of the child, why should a biological parents financial responsibility end with adoption? Shouldn’t they still be somewhat responsible for a child they brought into the world? I have a… Read more »
“Also, speaking of child support, let’s look at the statistics of enforcement. About 41% of of the custodial single parents in 2010 received all of the child support they were owed. The average amount of money per child owed was around $5,900. The average amount of money received was around $3,600 (that’s about 61%). About 29% of custodial parents received none of the money that they were due.” You can’t get blood from stone, does this stat actually work out if the person can pay? If the father has 20 bucks in his account but owes 200bucks then there’s a… Read more »
“Being legally required to pay child support sucks…I mean yeah, of course it sucks. You have less money for yourself…less money for whatever family you do end up with. In the U.S. and in other western countries, money is damn important and having less of it is a bit crap.” That’s the good case scenario. Bad case scenario it’s the difference between being healthy or maimed or dead because you had to take a more dangerous job, or the difference between having a home or being homeless for not having one, or the difference between being free or in prison… Read more »
Yeah, abortion is increasingly restricted in a lot of places, and there are still efforts abounding to make it completely illegal again. I guess you haven’t read about all those instances of doctors who are willing to provide abortions being attacked or murdered. Abortion is never easy, and it also isn’t cheap, which is why getting the morning-after pill made legal and easily available was and is so important. So is legally forcing pharmacies to stock it. If you go into business as a drug store, you don’t get to choose which prescriptions to fulfill and which ones to refuse.… Read more »
But to return to my point (and tie this in): your rights only extend to you and your person — they end where someone else’s rights begin. You don’t get to dictate how someone else must live or what they do with their bodies, not based on your religious convictions, or your sense of what’s’ unfair,’ or anything else. I mostly agree. However, I cannot pretend that the concept of rights is some non-ideological theory that is devoid and separated from notions of “fairness” despite your attempts to separate them. A man cannot dictate a woman to offer her body… Read more »
Minors have rights that adults do not simply because they *are* minors and not responsible for or capable of raising themselves. Society has an interest in seeing that even unwanted children are cared for and supported in some way, to the point of requiring child support. And children are always as possible consequence of sex, as people for whom birth control has failed well know. If you as an adult don’t consent to make a child, then you either don’t have sex, don’t have intercourse but *do* have sex (that’s what kind mouths and loving hands are for), or properly… Read more »
Minors have rights that adults do not simply because they *are* minors and not responsible for or capable of raising themselves. Lots of adults and non-minors are “not responsible for or capable of raising themselves” or otherwise living independently due to a variety of reasons (illness, injury, disability, poverty, etc.). That does not entitle them to become the ward and dependent of somebody else. Why does the dependence of minors justify compulsory support on the part of other people but the dependence of non-minors not justify compulsory support? Society has an interest in seeing that even unwanted children are cared… Read more »
Whether its easy or not (in terms of access or choosing it) its still an option.
And while I can’t speak for anyone else here I’m not saying that the stakes are the same nor am I trying to act like women have it easy. I’m all for a holistic approach but its going to be a hard go of it if the very conversation about men’s options get halted and put on the back burner just because all the options for women haven’t been ironed out yet.
@ HeatherN I don’t think anyone believes that abortion is easy., but I always say that it’s better to have a choice than not. Would you support an abortion ban in return for improved child support collection and increased support? I doubt any “pro-choice” woman would and that’s because as hard as it is it’s better to have the option than be at the mercy of someone else’s choice. And what of the men who would welcome a child? You seem to only be looking at cases where the guy doesn’t want one. There were some articles on post abortion… Read more »
My answer to the question “What reproductive rights do fathers have” is NONE. Anything that can be ‘given’ away by someone else without your consent is not a right. Take the right to remain silent during an arrest for example. If the police could override that right by simply signing a legal document without your permission would anyone still consider it a right. I doubt it. Right now in the US and Canada (and probably other parts of the world), a woman has multiple options to relinquish her responsibilities as a parent, post birth. Safe Havens that ask NO questions,… Read more »
I don’t think that feminists, MRAs, or anyone in general wants someone to be victimized. I don’t think they want someone to be falsely accused. I don’t think they want anyone to be taken advantage of. I think a lot of the conflict is people realizing that any system is going to be imperfect so the debate is more along the lines of where should we err.
“And how can this control be balanced with and complement a woman’s right to her own reproductive autonomy?” In cases of male rape victims, there is no reasonable way to balance it. If theory if the death penalty were applicable to rape cases and it can be administered prior to viability or at least prior to the birth of the child, that would be a way to balance it without infringing on a mother’s bodily autonomy. There are ways it can be more balanced and that is probably where we should look. Make rape resulting in forced reproduction a crime.… Read more »
“Should men be granted more decision making power over when and how they become parents?” That depends on how you define father. If you’re simply talking about reproduction then no, however, rights should not be taken away. I’m specifically referring to the adoption of caps on children conceived through sperm donations. If you’re referring to raising a child then yes. States should adopt a law requiring a father’s consent prior to allowing an adoption. Paternity in adoption cases should be established through DNA testing. IMO, the current laws can be made more acceptable if women who place children for adoption… Read more »
“What reproductive rights do you think men have right now, and are those equitable?” The only reproductive right a man has is to get a vasectomy. Male victims raped by females do not even have the right to consent. Men usually have a choice to wear a condom, but assuming that a woman chooses to retrieve his sperm from the spent condom and is successfully able to impregnate herself, he has the same rights as the male rape victim. The man usually has the right to abstain, the right to porn. On the other side of the coin, a father… Read more »
First, there are no such thing as reproductive rights. If there were than a man or boy raped by a woman or girl would be able to legally force her to have an abortion. Since men raped by women have no opportunity, ability, or “right” to control their own reproduction, the idea of “reproductive rights” can not be universally applied so you can’t establish it as a right. Reproduction in society is a privilege afforded to mothers (almost exclusively women) only. Since mothers essentially have the right to unilaterally adopt out a child terminating the parental rights of both parents,… Read more »
Hmm, let’s see, .. switch the genders in the question, ” is forced motherhood fair ” in which she has to keep the child!!!!, & please cut the crap about 9months of physical or emotional sickness , a lot of men would rather 9 months at Abu ghraip jail in Bagdad then 18 to 24years of a bastard child support.
If a man relinquishes his parental rights at birth(after establishing paternity) would the State still hold him responsible for child support?
In theory, no, but men don’t have that option. Mothers essentially have the option to terminate the parental rights of both parents unilaterally. Yes, there are some safe guards with many loopholes and very stringent and inadequate time frames to protect a father’s tights to a child if he wishes to retain his parental rights that’s why I say essentially. No state requires a father’s, identified through DNA testing, consent to allow an adoption. He simply needs to not contest during a specific time frame to have his parental rights involuntarily terminated or if a woman can get any man… Read more »
Yes, the State can still hold him responsible for child support. Parental rights and parental liability are not legally one in the same. Waiver of rights does not relieve one of liability. A man might waive his parental rights or lose them involuntarily (because he is a dangerous criminal, he harmed the children, he is an absentee parent, etc.), but can still be forced to pay child support.
http://www.dadsdivorce.com/articles/child-support-and-termination-of-parental-rights.html
What reproductive rights to you think men have right now, and are those equitable? I would say that since men have nowhere near the same flexibility to basically walk away from parenting like women do I would definitely say they are not equitable. Should men be granted more decision making power over when and how they become parents? Yes. And how can this control be balanced with and compliment a woman’s right to her own reproductive autonomy? I think it can be done quite simply in the same ways that women are allowed ways out of raising children. A woman… Read more »
I, personally, keep a back up plan in case things go south. Never giving your real name during casual hookups is probably a good idea too.