In a big study about male preferences in their mate, some interesting data emerged. Writing in the NYT Stephanie Coontz makes the case for why women getting educated in increasing numbers does not mean they will become less attractive to men, but more.
For more than a century, women oftenwere forced to choose between an education and a husband. Of women who graduated from college before 1900, more than three-quarters remained single. As late as 1950, one-third of white female college graduates ages 55 to 59 had never married, compared with only 7 percent of their counterparts without college degrees.
But over the past 30 years, these prejudices have largely disappeared. By 1996, intelligence and education had moved up to No. 5 on men’s ranking of desirable qualities in a mate. The desire for a good cook and housekeeper had dropped to 14th place, near the bottom of the 18-point scale. The sociologist Christine B. Whelan reports that by 2008, men’s interest in a woman’s education and intelligence had risen to No. 4, just after mutual attraction, dependable character and emotional stability.
The result has been a historic reversal of what the economist Elaina Rose calls the “success” penalty for educated women. By 2008, the percentage of college-educated white women ages 55 to 59 who had never been married was down to 9 percent, just 3 points higher than their counterparts without college degrees. And among women 35 to 39, there was no longer any difference in the percentage who were married.
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My wife is definitely smarter than I am, a lawyer for many years before moving on to design and then work with children’s advocacy. And that intelligence was a big factor in my being attracted to her.
Guys, what to you think?
(PS I am glad to see that “Chastity” has basically dropped off the list)
http://www.whatmenreallywantreview.com/ is a great website that gives great tips on simular topics. Also gives a review of a well recommended guide written by a real relationship expert.
I just noticed the part of the quoted article that talks about an “success penalty,” meaning that some women are less likely to get married than others. Did anyone else notice that? I’m assuming the assumption is that all women more or less want to get married, but educated ones find it slightly more difficult to find a mate so that must mean they have been “penalized” for being educated. Then, the quoted article suggests that among the younger generation the marriage rates are the same regardless of education, so men must be more okay with educated women. That sort… Read more »
I would say I’ve had the same experience as JR. And this sometimes take a lot of time to get over. That not all men are like that. I certainly don’t think so because some of my male friends are the most amazing guys. I wouldn’t know what I would do without them. But have seen some of what John says as well. I’ve seen woman use things against men and I don’t understand for what reason. Relationships are not points system based. Judgement shouldn’t be apart of it either. Do you judge your friends? What’s the point? I can… Read more »
As long as you post an article or comment where you cite your subordinate position relative to your wife, you’ll be okay.
Thanks for posting this…my best friend is a PhD. and teaches at a community college….she got divorced from her first husband (who is an elementary school math teacher) and eventually got married again to an IT guy on her campus (they’re very happy!)….Her first husband, even though he got remarried, won’t leave her alone….and keeps thinking of ways to harass her in all ways possible (they have a son together but he treats their son like a pawn in his game to get her to talk with him, which she minimizes to the bare minimum)….. I think her PhD. has… Read more »
You completely missed the point of this article. Way to go in attempting to hijack this thread in order to go on about your friend’s ex who you are obsessed with.
Just A Man, I think just as the feminist movement allowed women to define their own role, men should define their own role and establish their own masculine identity, regardless if society approves or not. I imagine it must be incredibly difficult for men since for generations they have been told how to be a man and all of a sudden they have no concrete guidelines and no role models. Men have been told for ages how to be that they don’t know how to be themselves. Liberation and the freedom to just be can be scary but should be… Read more »
JR,
Nice thoughts, but in my relationship what I say is taken down and used in evidence against me. Simple formula – if you want intimacy, don’t be judgmental or use sex as leverage. Intimacy is a female strength and most guys don’t want to be emotionally beaten up.
I cry often enough, but not when she is watching…
On men defining their own role, MGTOW is becoming more popular now, is this what you meant?
John, I am sorry that your partner isn’t supportive. Using sex as a leverage is a double standard, which I don’t tolerate. Some women give BJs as if they were doggie treats or withdraw sex as punishment. Women need to stop doing this and men need to refuse sex if given as a “reward”. I think this cheapens sex and kills sexual intimacy. Furthermore, your partner isn’t supposed to control your behavior with money, sex, the kids, threats of abandonment or anything else. Relationships are not about control or manipulation. I think no one should wear the pants because it’s… Read more »
@JR, I know you’re trying to help, but there are some things you just don’t get which us men understand. You first have a problem with Aharon speaking on behalf of men and believe that he should understand that he speaks only for himself. Then, you go on to speak for women. You further say ” A man with a tough exterior but fragile interior is unattractive.” but then want men to not be afraid to cry. You say you have a tall Nordic male friend who cries all the time. You see him breaking down in tears as some… Read more »
Spencer, Men do cry they just do it alone as John said. I understand that men have a different way of going about their emotional world. I also wrote: “At the same time women need to understand that men will do this in their own way. Men will never articulate their emotions as we do. Men express love more through actions than by words.” Men and women do communicate differently and this is why I brought Bob and the contract with his wife up. They created a standard of communication that worked for both of them. Furthermore, Bob is the… Read more »
“The problem was never that whites oppressed blacks. The problem was never that the British oppressed the Irish.”
You really just need to STFU right now. You’re digging a bigger and bigger hole of ignorance for yourself. Not only should you be embarrassed about your fixation on a senior citizen and wanting a younger version of him for yourself, but your insensitivity to the historical oppression people have faces is simply disgusting.
Does Bob’s SO know how you feel about him?
Bob knows about my old man fetish. He wouldn’t appreciate you labeling him as a senior citizen. I am half black and Puerto Rican (remember Puerto Rico is an oppressed country). I guess I suffer from self-hatred too. This article is about smart women and now I realize why some men, such as yourself can’t keep up with smart women. You just can’t understand so you misinterpret everything. I will STFU up now and take my submissive role.
The article was about college educated women and changing attitudes. Oh, you’re “half black and Puerto Rican”? I’m sure black folks love hearing your novel opinions about it not being that whites oppressed blacks. You forgot to mention that all your friends are white, and you’re their one black friend who co-signs on all their ignorance.
I don’t have all white friends. I make exceptions. I actually have one black friend and dated him for the past 3.5 years. I am too ashamed to call him a boyfriend. I am also ashamed of my father. I am also ashamed of my Puerto Rican side too since we have blacks on that side of the family too due to Spaniards bringing over west African slaves. Such mixed blood; Spaniard, Taino, African American and African too. Not a drop of pure white blood. Oh the shame. If only I could be white then I will be worthy. Your… Read more »
John! Get out of that relationship! What you are talking about sounds like emotional abuse.
Tom, thanks for posting this, including that chart. My fundamental problem with Ms. Coontz’ article was that she didn’t go very deeply into what women want. Sure, a couple of sentences regarding women’s views toward the end, which she then “should’d” all over. Here’s why I don’t think her approach is helpful: Men, by and large, are not the final “deciders” in the sexual and relationship marketplace. Women are going to have to make up their minds about what kind(s) of men they want. Trust me, men will respond. At the moment I think we are in transition. Women are… Read more »
James Taranto on the Stephanie Coontz article. A brilliant smackdown:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204795304577223342354850200.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_MIDDLETopOpinion
Hey Sharon, although I somewhat agree with you, more and more women are truly understanding what men want from women and relationships. I agree with you in the fact the many women think that men only focus on Physical Attractiveness, this right here is definately a mis-understanding. However most guys are after strong, independent women who can give the mutual attraction (As this study quite rightly states) So yeah, there are plenty of women out there who don’t fully understand what men want, but luckily more and more women are becoming wiser in relationships. (Thanks to the internet!) I have… Read more »
I’m really happy to see this study. I think it’s so important that us women do have an education and qualifications. It seems the many young lady’s these days are “hoping” to find a rich guy, but it looks like men are trying to avoid these types of women 🙂
Lisa Harris ~ http://truthsaboutmen.info
The NYT and a woman writer pointing out new truths about men ie what men really want? I have read hundreds of news pieces and other media articles over many years, and never does a woman get it right about men.
Please share the secret! Enlighten us please! From your own perspective on men please tell us what men really want?
JR There are as many different answers to that as there are men. This man wants a partner in life who is equal but different. I don’t need or want someone to “take care of me” and I don’t want to be a caretaker either. We share much of lifes chores but I’m a better cook, carpenter, plumber and electrician. She is a better bookkeeper, decorator, designer and is the artist in our team. She has her feet more firmly on the ground and I dream bigger and so it goes. Lisa I’ve done duty as a divorce mediator and… Read more »
Thank you Terry. If you were a divorce mediator around here I would totally send my mom to you. But it is also nice to engage with people who think like you do amidst the troubling things I see on TV. Though doubtless this is overhype by media outlets its still frustrating…
Those unequal relationships have always existed throughout history and had been pretty successful. The problem is that relationships have lost their utility.
Terry,
“There are as many different answers to that as there are men”
Thank you very much! That was the exact point I was trying to make. They really need sarcasm font. Lol. That’s why I said from his own unique male perspective. We need to stop looking at each other as merely male/ female or man/woman and ask what does Terry want or what does JR want. Society has given us many different versions of what a man/woman should want but it conflicts with what the individual truly wants.
IF only men had this growing up: http://goo.gl/obiC
In 1939, college degrees were much rarer than they are today, while high school diplomas were only slightly less common. Society’s expectation about how much education you need has gone up, not just in terms of mates, but in EVERY part of our society, so it’s not surprising that people are more conscious of education level. In 1939, a high school diploma was all you really needed for virtually anything. Now you’ll see a lot of opportunities out of your reach with just a HS diploma. One huge change from the Baby Boom era is that in the 1950’s a… Read more »
Thinking like a historian, I would note that the 1939 survey was conducted after 10 years of the Great Depression, a very extreme time not only for economic issues but also for marriages and families – the birthrate dropped, people got married less often, there were virtually no new houses built, etc. Whatever financial crisis the US is in today is a little blip compared to 1929-39. I think intelligence and education are not necessarily inseparable from a lot of the other categories. The four above it are associated with smarts, in my book. For “mutual attraction” I will be… Read more »
This analysis is obviously a complete fraud, as “enjoys performing oral sex” isn’t even listed among the desired traits.
ok – forget anything I may have said previously – I’m gonna go with Jake here.
Perhaps that would be a crucial part of “Sociability”?
Maybe it’s covered under the decline in “Neatness”?
The categories are rather broad….
The social environment has changed drastically. More women are graduating from colleges and pursuing career, and the domestic skills has taken a beating. There are no solutions in life only trade offs. If the women in marriage market have little or no domestic skills, pleasant personality and chastity, then at least they should have the education and intelligence to earn money to cover up those deficiencies.
Hey Matlack, there’s an interesting article in Mens’ Health this month. It’s titled “Women on Top”. It’s about these top young female executives and the way they boss the men in their lives around. One such woman , after a good day of “firing people twice my age”, orders her boyfriend(some writer or artist type who makes much less money than her) to meet him at her place. When she arrives, she “orders him to strip”. The author (a woman) thinks that this is “incredibly sexy”. I wonder if the genders were reversed if she still would think that way?
I can’t speak for Tom but in my world whatever people do in the privacy of their own home is not for me to judge. When they insist on tossing it in my face I’ll give my opinion, defend it if necessary once or maybe twice and then drop it if no meeting of minds occurs. In my limited experience with female executives, I find them to be team builders and consensus seekers rather than ball busters. Every rule has exceptions and most of us find that things are pretty much as we expect them to be. What doesn’t match… Read more »
When you put your story out there foe 1.8 million people to read, you pretty much give up “the privacy of your own home” argument. I don’t get your thing about consensus builders. Does that mean if you want some “head”, she calls her friends and forms a focus group? Iguess with that last statement, your showing off your obviously “Superior Education”. Although, it’s hard to tell if your dazzeling me with footwork, or baffeling me with bullshit (either one, by the way, would be easy enough to do). Either way, you didn’t answer my question. Matlack, you’re a Bigshot… Read more »
Interesting list.
And it makes sense as far as the study is concerned.
At the end of the day though people are individuals and even though it is possible the majority might prefer what is in studies, the real challenge comes when one actually talks to a prospective mate about what is important to each.
Amen
This is a very informative, but WANT are variable that changes from time to time.
What the ?How can people value dependable character, emotional maturity, being pleasant and desiring home and children less ??? These are CRUCIAL qualities; without them it’s virtually impossible to create a stable marriage. I am not even mentioning basic cooking skills etc…
Personally, I’ll do the cooking thank you (I’m better at it) and I’ll do the plumbing, the electrical work and the carpentry too. She makes better deserts and does things with the puter and the DVD player I don’t even begin to comprehend and fortunately for me she likes to clean things. The garage is totally mine. She does paperwork and manages money much better than I do. This is not a map of anyone elses territory, it just happens to work for us. Studies? Frankly, I could care less. I like to stick with what works for US. You… Read more »
Wirblewind,
Am I reading you right, that you’re saying it’s virtually impossible to create a stable marriage without children and basic cooking skills?
I’ll still put my stock on mutual values above all else. If 2 people aren’t chasing the exact same notion of prosperity, then all the education and commercial attractiveness in the world wont make that relationship work.
As a man however, I can’t see myself with a woman who holds greater values in this world then she has for me. It’ totally emasculating to be #4 on your partners list of priorities behind Job, Kids and Assets. Screw that! …
Where the waitresses at?
And while we’re on the subject let’s try to remember that education and intelligence are not related in any predictable way. Success in life is far more predictable from Emotional Intelligence than it is from IQ. The combination is deadly. Rhodes Scholar and former President William Jefferson Clinton would be a good example.
Studies? Thanks in advance.
search Daniel Goleman on Amazon The book is called Emotional intelligence. Related studies are to be found within.
IQ is a decent predictor of success. However, its not a linear relationship. If you use income as an indicator of success you get a positive correllation between the income and IQ up to about 130 (after a period of diminishing marginal returns). After about 130 the correllation becomes negative- as IQ climbs income decreases.
The decline of ‘chastity’ is a classic example of making the necessity into a virtue. The reason ‘chastity’ has declined so much is because men know it’s not an option in any event. And they knew it in the 1939 as well, as even then it was 10th on the list. It’s my view that men have always known that a significant number of women wouldn’t be “chaste” on their wedding night and that a better interpretation of this is that men know their chances of getting a “chaste” woman to marry are practically nil, so they don’t bother to… Read more »
Very true. And women would be lying to you if they said that attractiveness wasn’t important for them as well. However just as with men there is a wide variety of what women find attractive. My tastes differ from my friends. Hell I may find a man attractive and then about five minutes into a conversation decide while he may be good looking, I can’t actually stand him.
“However just as with men there is a wide variety of what women find attractive.” Except that isn’t entirely true. Study upon study has shown that men generally find the same kinds of women attractive. Women with big eyes and a 0.7 waist-to-hip ratio are consistently rated as ideal. In fact, a study was done on men blind from birth and found that they, too, prefer women with waist-to-hip ratios of 0.7 (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/18/magazine/18fob-Bergner-t.html). This doesn’t mean that a man can’t get it up for any other size woman, just that there is, in fact, an objectively measureable standard of ideal… Read more »
Looking for chastity nowadays is like searching for an old out-of-print book. If you are lucky you would find it in some library or second-hand book shop in old and tattered condition.
lmao – That would be the first time anyone ever called me a feminist – congratulations (I think). Enjoy that third world relationship. Years mediating divorce clients suggest you’re in for a rough road but you never know………You probably stand a better chance for success with that if you emigrate to her place of birth.
Here’s what I think and a lot of men agree with me : A man wants a wife, not a co-worker.
The Coontz essay is just another anti-male atrocity attempting to correlate men’s lack of sexual attraction to modern females with men’s “fragile egos/sexual inadequacy” using the tired old cliche of “studies have shown”.
Big ego, small dick? Whats up with you guys – when you keep a woman barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen she develops a tendency to resent your dumb ass. I don’t NEED a woman to cook and clean for me and I don’t want one who is totally dependent on me for survival. It breeds resentment or arrogance or any one of a host of other undesirable qualities.
“Big ego, small dick?”
Noticing your interest in the size of dicks of other men, I am convinced that you are one among those who do not need women at all.
Dumb comment not worthy of the space it took to post it. Sad for you that you depend on a woman to look after you. That was your mothers job. You want to marry your mother? You’re a funny guy but hey – It’s your life to live any way you want.
People usually write disclaimer at the end, but you seem to start your comment with a disclaimer. For running a household, partners have to depend on each other all the time.
Typical feminist; dictate what I should find attractive in a mate and then accuse me of having a small dick for thinking otherwise. Thanks, but I prefer a third world babe who knows how to cook and keep a clean house to an overly-educated western female with no practical home-making skills.
Whose trying to dictate what you have to find attractive in a mate? You like what you like that’s your problem. But saying that all women are good for is to cook and clean is rather a sad attitude. If you want a real feminist attitude well: research has been done and women don’t even need men to have a children. Even their sperm. Eventually men could just be phased out.
Actually, I believe the’re several authors on N.O.W.’s “suggested reading list” who propose ” culling the male population down to about 10% of current levels” I can see they have one believer.
Lol I don’t really believe that. It’s just frustrating when you try to express your views as a woman and you are cut down as a feminist as if that’s a bad thing. When you try to express your views at all, someone has to attack rather than to try to see the other side of the issue.
I did not say that. Nor did I say anything about “forcing” someone to stay in the kitchen. I want a woman who is happy in the kitchen. The rest can take a hike.
This entire thread and the essay it links to are about demanding that men be attracted to over educated females who have no home-making skills, and it attempts to shame men into doing that with accusations of fragile egos and sexual inadequacy. Terry takes it further in his quest to impress feminists by shrieking at me for having a small dick. Very telling indeed.
There’s a problem with using the word educated. I have many male friends who are far more educated about life and the world from experience, rather than going to college. Men who have gone to college can have huge egos without knowing anything. I have a Master’s Degree, but finding someone to share my time with isn’t about someone who has the same level of education. It might be nice, but as long as they are working towards something, have a sense of humor and we can have interesting discussions, that’s what matters.
Absolutely correct. I also feel the same way. I have a doctorate degree and have found that people with high degrees have really big egos and lack the ability to work with others.