Danny explores whether or not there are legitimate uses for the term “mansplaining”.
So earlier today we were all talking about Ryan Gosling in a post by Joanna. Someone mentioned the term mansplaining. Well after a while Joanna said that she would like to see a post on the word. Here goes.
First off let’s get an idea of what mansplaining is. I found what seems to be one of the oldest explanations of the term (and includes a link to a possible original source for the term) at Karen Healey’s livejournal:
Mansplaining is when a dude tells you, a woman, how to do something you already know how to do, or how you are wrong about something you are actually right about, or miscellaneous and inaccurate “facts” about something you know a hell of a lot more about than he does.
Bonus points if he is explaining how you are wrong about something being sexist!
I’m going to leave it at that. More than likely I’ll put in my two cents in the comments but I don’t want to add my opinion to the main post in that it might sway people.
So what do you think?
Legitimate term?
A term that has some legitimacy but has the potential for incorrect use?
Useless lingo that really adds nothing?
Offensive lingo that is ultimately counterproductive?
Are there other forms of _____-splaining that occur?
Photo of screaming businessman courtesy of Shutterstock
I dreamed of a world where everybody was still just as insensitive, condescending and obtuse to everyone else as before… except that nobody attributed or assumed that this boorish behavior had anything to do with gender (their own, or anybody else’s) because, in my dream, it didn’t: Some people were just inherently condescending or clueless, some people were just thin-skinned, and nobody was sexist anymore ever ever again… but then I woke up, and everything was back to usual.
Mansplaining is a status play. Simple as that. (And yes, I’ve had a woman ‘splain’ to me in this fashion as well). It’s usually a play for the higher status in a relationship or situation because either way – you the person being explained to – will come off as lower status. If you point out that you already know, you come off as insecure and if you say nothing, you play into their game of making you the one that doesn’t hold (or needs) the knowledge that they have. It’s a status play to gain the upper hand. It’s… Read more »
I would say that Mansplaining also in my experience tends to make the assumption that you wouldn’t possibly know as much as I do about ‘x,y,z’ and most of the time it’s because I’m a woman. So if you find yourself ‘mansplaining’ ask yourself first before you go any further whether you’re making some incorrect assumptions and whether those assumptions are gendered. Its not a matter of forcing you to conform to some ‘female’ way of behaving. It’s asking you to demonstrate respect, awareness, humility and consideration. Men – you have to understand. Most women are used to being patronised… Read more »
“I’ve only ever been ‘explained to’ by one woman in my life though.” And I’ve rarely been mansplained by men. But if I dare to try and discuss family, children, relationships and/or gender equality with a woman nearby, the chances she will mansplain these topics to me is actually quite high. As discussed in the comments above, it is far more likely different communication styles between the genders, and how those styles are interpreted. This would explain why one is far less likely to be mansplained by their own gender, because they share a communication style. For example, in your… Read more »
I think mansplaining is caused by what roles our male ancestors took in society. soldiers, factoryworkers, engineers, etc. People that work in these fields talk very mansplainy to each other, because doing a good job is more important than pride. In fact, doing a good job often means that somebody keeps their limbs or life. I think mainsplaining should be more prevalent. I jumped from being a soldier to a factoryworker to a university setting. And it’s only in uni that i have been accused of mansplaining. It anoyed me, partly because everybody talked like that in my old jobs,… Read more »
Somewhere above, HeatherN wrote: Except, if you look at the social influences which have created the second one, it’s really not dismissive or oppressive. It’s a reaction to being dismissed and even oppressed, historically. That’s why Julie mentioned “particularly of a certain generation.” If a woman is used to men talking down to her (or at the very least used to society telling her that, as a woman, she is inherently less knowledgeable about certain topics than men), then when a man offers unsolicited and unwanted advice without considering that it might be interpreted as such, and then that woman… Read more »
” then when a man offers unsolicited and unwanted advice without considering that it might be interpreted as such, and then that woman interprets it as him talking down to her….she’s not being dismissive.” I think you misunderstood me. I was referring to how the person interpreting it took it. So when Danny says “I don’t think…” one listen can hear it as constructive (encorages debate and learning) and another can hear it as dismissive and even oppressive. So ultimately, I’m not suggesting her interpretation is dismissive or oppressive to someone else, I am suggesting she is interpreting it to… Read more »
Also I think something else that has people so fired up over the idea of mansplaining is that even without the actual words being said there seems to be an implication that the opposite (women patronizing men and all other reasons/causes/motivations being the same) either cannot happen or a grudging acknolwedgement that while it can happen “it doesn’t compare to what happens to women” (which is code for “women have it worse”). In fact as I already said the Karen Healely post has a link to a follow up that tries to head off an attempt at pointing out a… Read more »
Look you’re probably going to disagree with me, but sometimes women do have it worse. You know what, sometimes men do…because we’ve not yet reached complete equity between the genders. So sometimes, women get screwed the heck over. This is one of those ways. (Happens to men too…when it comes to the way society deals with victims of DV, men get screwed the heck over). Traditionally, western society has valued men’s roles more than women’s. We’re a mostly capitalist society, and money means value…yet it’s traditional men’s roles that are monetized, not traditional women’s. Women who strove to break out… Read more »
Look you’re probably going to disagree with me, but sometimes women do have it worse. You know what, sometimes men do…because we’ve not yet reached complete equity between the genders. So sometimes, women get screwed the heck over. This is one of those ways. (Happens to men too…when it comes to the way society deals with victims of DV, men get screwed the heck over). The difference here is that you are acknowledging that in different metrics like DV, parenting, sex, etc…. women have it worse. And that I have no problem with. The problem I have is the flat… Read more »
Look frankly, the feminists I hang with don’t even use the term “mansplaining.” We’ve all got our feminism from academia, and ‘mansplaining’ is not an academic term. I don’t really have a specific term for it, really, regardless of what gender we’re talking about. Also, when I say I took gender studies classes, what I mean is that I took gender studies classes. We examined the construction of gender and gender performance as entire concepts. When we examined femininity, we examined masculinity as well. And when academic feminists talk about patriarchy, they are not blaming men. They are talking about… Read more »
Anyway, I think the reason I get really frustrated when you (or anyone else) starts attacking feminists, or assuming most feminists are out to get men, or whatever, is because a lot of the stuff you all are talking about aren’t what the feminists I know are like. So it’s like…really tiring to have to wade through the anti-feminist bit to get to the actual meat of a person’s comment. My hypothesis (i.e., not an assertion of fact) is that most of the men you’ll find commenting at GMP do not have much, if any, experience in the kind of… Read more »
Marcus, I think what you’re saying has a great deal of truth to it. But I also think HeatherN is being unfair by presenting “academic feminism” as even remotely unified and totally divorced from “blogosphere feminism.” I took a gender studies course when I was still an undergrad (just 2 years ago!) and I was exposed to a great deal of traditional second-wave feminist thought, which would seem to be completely at odds with what HeatherN is presenting. I would also point out that Hugo Schwyzer actively teaches Gender Studies and espouses a great deal of the thought that you… Read more »
“We’ve all got our feminism from academia, ” Academia, like Simon Fraser University, where the women’s center, run by a council that requires unanimous agreement to do anything, has defined masculinity as homophobic, violent, emotionally stifling, etc, right up on their website for all to see (http://www.sfuwomenctr.ca/faqs.html)? Or perhaps all the feminist scholars and writers who oppose Benatar’s the second sexism book (http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/lifestyle/2012/05/second-sexism-dont-judge-book-its-press)? It’s tiring being told your experience with feminism is more accurate than ours heather, of your denying our experiences because that isn’t what you experience. The bigotry within the feminist movement is out there, plain to see,… Read more »
It’s tiring being told your experience with feminism is more accurate than ours heather, of your denying our experiences because that isn’t what you experience. The bigotry within the feminist movement is out there, plain to see, and it IS in Acadamia, not just on the internet. Deal with it, stop denying it. Your frustration has merit Mark but unfortunately focusing it at Heather would ultimately be counter productive. Despite the exchanges I’ve had with her I can tell that unlike many feminists she is actually willing to listen. I truly don’t think that she is trying to say that… Read more »
Except, if you look at the SFU website, you’ll see that they aren’t against a Men’s Centre. They’re for a Men’s Centre that challenges traditional western culture. It literally says it’s for a Men’s Centre that “challenges popular conceptions about masculinity.” In other words…it’s for a Men’s Centre that looks a hell of a lot like the GMP, really. And it doesn’t say that masculinity is homophobic and violent, etc. The only place that page mentions homophobia, is in a list of things it’d like to see a potential Men’s Centre focus on. It’s not equating masculinity with homophobia, or… Read more »
I quote from their site: “We know that many men are concerned with the way masculinity denegrates women by making them into sexual objects, is homophobic, encourages violence, and discourages emotional expression. It is the hope of the women’s centre that the male allies project will help men address these concerns in conjunction with other men.” Sounds a lot like a sexist generalisation to me and no it doesn’t at all suggest support for a men’s centre. It does not say *some* expressions of masculinity, it lays the blame for violence, homophobia and the lack of emotional expression at the… Read more »
Well first, the feminine equivalent to “masculinity” isn’t feminism, it’s femininity. Secondly, talking about how “masculinity denegrates women” isn’t the same as saying “men denegrate women.” Masculinity (just like femininity) is the set of cultural norms associated with a gender identity. When a gender studies person talks about ‘masculinity’ they aren’t talking about men or males; they’re talking about all of the cultural baggage that has been associated with the identity of ‘man.’ And traditionally, masculinity has been homophobic, discourages emotional expression and encourages violence. All of the things that I’ve seen so many men talking about – how society… Read more »
“Secondly, talking about how “masculinity denigrates women” isn’t the same as saying “men denigrate women.”
That would be true is most men weren’t masculine. But, they are. In their view, average men denigrate women.
“And traditionally, masculinity has been homophobic, discourages emotional expression and encourages violence.”
Most men are masculine. This view of males is why feminism is known as anti-male and repels most women.
It’s a bit like the phrase, “hate the sin not the sinner.” Except, that’s a bit off because it’s not as if we’re talking about sinning here. But my point is that it’s separating individual people from social identities and behaviours.
Or it’s a bit like people who support the troops, but are against the war. You can still support the individuals involved in a war while being completely against the war itself.
“Except, that’s a bit off because it’s not as if we’re talking about sinning here. But my point is that it’s separating individual people from social identities and behaviours.”
When that precise, exact concept is applied to homosexulity, they call it homophobia. But, many agree with you. It’s possible to reject and “hate” what a person DOES, how they behave, but not the person him/herself. You see, many people argue that both homosexuality and masculinity have genetic components.
The two examples are actually quite different…the only similarity is the idea of separating the idea from the individual. That’s what I was trying to point out, that you can separate the concept (masculinity) from the individual (men).
“the only similarity is the idea of separating the idea from the individual. That’s what I was trying to point out, that you can separate the concept (masculinity) from the individual (men).”
How does that work? How exactly do you do that as long as they are behaving in masculine ways? They hate thei behavior of masculine men but not the men themselves? If they would just stop behaving in masculine ways, even if they have a strong desire to, even if it feels natural to them, all would be well?
“The two examples are actually quite different”
How so? They both have been defined as a combination of social choice and biological urge, the combination of which is dangerous, harmful to the individual and others around them and in need of being trained out of the individual. They both very much relate to an individuals sexual identity. So what is the difference?
Yes, most feminists want men to be less masculine. They’ve identified a series of problems with this mode of behaviour and want you to stop doing it. Not because it is manly, but because it is homophobic, violent, etc. We used to stereotype women as being weak, passive, housewives. People in the 1950s had trouble even concieving of a woman with a career, and that included most women. However feminism encouraged women to go ahead and pursue careers, and few people think that way anymore. But we still associate “femininity” more with housewives than corporate executives, the difference is that… Read more »
He has a point on this…Wording can matter quite a lot. We need a label to seperate heathers version, and the blogosphere/parts of academia feminism. Otherwise we continuously end up with fights over 2 distinct groups with the same name.
“Except, if you look at the SFU website, you’ll see that they aren’t against a Men’s Centre” Did you bother to read what their idea of a men’s centre actually is? In case you missed it I’ll repeat…http://www.sfuwomenctr.ca/male%20allies.html (the big ol’ poster right at the top) “Stand up with us An opportunity for men to connect and talk about how to stop the negative issues that impact (Not themselves but) their girlfriends, wives, sisters and FEMALE relatives and friends.” Doesn’t sound like they have any interest talking about male issues, just issues about men (such as the evils that is… Read more »
“Let me ask you, would you be offended if GMP said their mission statement was “to acknowledge that men and women are concerned with the way feminity denegrates men by making them into scapegoats for all issues, is flighty, encourages entitlement and discourages accountability”?
That statement is highly misogynistic and would never be permitted.
“Homophobia and violence are the status quo?”
YES!!!!!
I’m not going to go over all of it, but you might note that in the past Homosexuals had fewer rights and faced more attacks and a greater need to hide being homosexuals. Yes, violence is also the status quo, american censors are much MUCH more tolerant to of gratuitous violence in the media than say, sexuality. There’s a lot of times we’ll congratulate men on being violent, as long as they are being violent towards the right people.
Are you arguing that homophobia and violence is the status quo for masculinity specifically, or for society in general? Do please keep in mind the context being discussed.
“They’re for a Men’s Centre that challenges traditional western culture. It literally says it’s for a Men’s Centre that “challenges popular conceptions about masculinity.” In other words…it’s for a Men’s Centre that looks a hell of a lot like the GMP, really.” So, they’re against average masculine men. As if all traditional masculine men are, by definition, bad. In other words, they are against the average masculine man, who happens to not be a metrosexual, homosexual, stay at home dad, and/or male feminist. This means they are against the average loving, hard working father who love his wife and children.… Read more »
I mentioned this elsewhere…but no, being against traditional masculinity does not mean you are against traditional men. Masculinity is the collection of social constructs (and to some extent biological attributes) that create the traditional gender identity that we’ve labelled “men.” It’s again, separating individuals from larger social constructs. (Also, keep in mind that they are also challenging popular conceptions about femininity. That’s where feminism started, after all).
“being against traditional masculinity does not mean you are against traditional men.” Explain how that is possible when tradition men are traditionally masculine. You can’t seperate the two when they come in the same person, which includes the vast majority of men. I haven’t heard feminism attack and denigrate feminity in the way that it attacks and denigrates masculinity and humans who are masculine. Again, feminists are never going to get any more than a small minority of women on board as long as they continue to attack their men for being masculine. Not all women desire to be with… Read more »
“Being against traditional masculinity does not mean you are against traditional men. Masculinity is the collection of social constructs (and to some extent biological attributes) that create the traditional gender identity that we’ve labelled ‘men.’ It’s again, separating individuals from larger social constructs..” This is a very important distinction that you labored to articulate- but the whole problem (imho) is that this very crucial nuance that you understand and have explained so well is entirely LOST on those ideologues who hide behind feminism at SFU- that is, the opponents of a men’s centre who DO equate masculinity with males; ‘the personal… Read more »
Good point. It seems that despite all the talk of “being against traditional masculinity doesn’t mean being against men” it is still quite acceptable to hold men in some sort of collective contempt where the source of contempt solely depends on someone being male. Look at how often feminists talk about how feminists and women have good reason to be suspicious of men that come into their spaces. How often do you see that consideration extended to men (as in how often do you see feminists acknowledge that men have good reason to be suspicious of women and feminists that… Read more »
This isn’t to say men were all hunky dory…but that men as a class were not oppressed because they were men. (We’re talking historically here). So when men were oppressed, it was because of their economic status, or their race, or sexual orientation, or religion…etc. And women were oppressed because of all those things too…plus because they were women. This is where we disagree. To say that men were not dealt the hard lot that they got because of their gender I think its a reason why people (namely men) have such a hard time trying to talk to feminists… Read more »
Nobody I know (and I know a lot of women and men) wants even more feminism than what we’re already dealing with. More feminism is the last thing we want or need as it now just stirs up problems and contention without equal benefits, such as this mansplaining thing, rape culture, male privilege, one-sided VAWA, one-sided/gendered educational focus, etc.
Depends what kind of feminism they mean. I’m fine with more egalitarian feminism as long as there are no side-effects from laws, or stuff where boys fall behind in schools without help whereas girls are shooting ahead and still get help. Basically people giving a damn about more than just the women…
Spoken like a woman that’s never been womansplained as a man about how women know more about parenting:P. I don’t think womansplaining is any less powerful than mansplaining, I think it probably happens in different areas. Women have long been considered the parent of choice, the most knowledgeable, women have power when they womansplain and patronize a man about childcare. So I disagree mansplaining is worse than womansplaining, the rates may be different but they both still have quite an impact. So childcare leaves women as the default know-it-all, something like cars for men as the default know-it-all. I’m sure… Read more »
“Women have long been considered the parent of choice.” Not quite…women have long been considered the default parent. If you look back at western history, women didn’t chose to be the primary caregiver. Rather, if they wanted kids they had to be the primary caregiver. If they didn’t want kids…well they were considered really weird and less womanly. It was assumed – she was the one who got pregnant, therefore she was the one who would take care of the kid(s). And it wasn’t assumed she’d be the primary caregiver based on any personality qualities she had. It was purely,… Read more »
In theory a man’s talents or skills affected what jobs he had. (Economic class obviously had a huge effect too, but that’s a separate issue). Really now? Even when it came to men that got pushed into jobs and tasks that they didn’t want regardless of skill, talent, or desire? Men were valued for individual ability and women were valued as a gender, not as an individual. I don’t think its that clear cut for men. When its discovered that one is male its decided on the spot that he will become a man and will do what men are… Read more »
“Men were valued for individual ability and women were valued as a gender, not as an individual.” I’m not sure they were valued as much as you think, everytime war came it generally was the men thrown into the fray, quite often conscribed against their own wishes. Failing to goto war would get them visits from the white feather women, jailtime, even death I believe. They were often treated as pawns on a chess board, throw another few hundred/thousand men at the enemy until they fall! They were also valued for their ability to earn and provide, which isn’t an… Read more »
Different meaning of the word value…or rather, slightly different connotations to the word value. I’m not talking about men (or women) being more or less valued than the other. I was referring to where their value…where their personhood…came from. The concept of what made a person, a person. I was referring to how men were viewed as individuals (yes, even the garbageman), whereas women were viewed as more interchangeable. The Smurfette example is great for this…what’s her defining personality trait? That she’s a woman…as if being a woman was in itself a personality trait. Now, the idea that a man’s… Read more »
ht tp://karenhealey.livejournal.com/781391.html
Just had a read, any idea what she means by “Being a man isn’t bad. Neither’s being white, middle-upper class, educated, cisgendered, straight, or (for now) typically able. It’s the man(etc)splaining that’s the problem: bad behaviour as an exercise of privilege.”. I am half asleep and probably misreading it but what exactly is she referring to about being a man isn’t bad?
Alrighty, I haven’t read every single comment on here, but it seems to me a lot of them are running along a similar vein – basically saying that ‘mansplaining’ is just the way men speak, and that by labelling it as such and suggesting it’s a bad thing, we (mostly feminists) are somehow saying that men should conform to the way women speak. So I’d like to examine that for a moment. At the heart of the concept of mansplaining is the lack of consideration of the woman’s perspective and abilities when speaking to her. It’s about being considerate and… Read more »
“So, if ‘mansplaining’ isn’t something men do just to women, but rather just the way men speak…then I’m left wondering why men speak to each other with such disregard for each other’s feelings.”
Interesting thought.
Men don’t see speaking about something another person knows as being condescending. It isn’t that men don’t have a full range of emotions, it is that this form of behaviour doesn’t trigger a feeling of inferiority in the same manner as it appears it does with women. I’m interested to know if women have the same feeling of being femsplained when a woman tells them something they already know. I believe it must happen, I’ve had things I know explained to me by women, it was refreshing to have a sharing conversation.
It’s not merely “speaking about something another person knows”. Things men very close to me (a woman they would describe as intelligent) have explained to me: -That I cannot jump from my second year in my undergrad straight to a PhD programme. -That I should eat my hot food while it’s still hot before my cold food. -That I should not bring a heavy purse hiking. Not that I’ve done so before or had plans to, but just in case that was something I was gonna do. -That I should pay my Visa off before other bills, because the interest… Read more »
*by men “just trying to help”.
Interesting, I hear that type of explaining from both men and women. For some of those I’m not so sure it’s from a place of “they think you don’t know it” but more that they are just creating a discussion, sharing knowledge (to which people usually add theirs in). But if it’s only men who do that to you then there is a problem, maybe where I live it’s becoming everyone-splainin. Part of it could be that men are often raised to give advice when they are talked to. The old problem of men giving advice instead of listening plays… Read more »
Mmm… no, these were not instances of someone thinking I was looking for advice. Because I didn’t ask anything or say anything or present a problem. This was coddling, parenting, advice and comments offered out of nowhere.
Women NEVER do this to me. Women never point out to me that grass is green and the sky is blue.
“Men don’t see speaking about something another person knows as being condescending. It isn’t that men don’t have a full range of emotions, it is that this form of behaviour doesn’t trigger a feeling of inferiority in the same manner as it appears it does with women.” I haven’t heard anyone say that “mansplaining” makes women in general feel inferior. What I’ve heard is that it’s annoying and conveys the impression that the one doing the “mansplaining” is making unflattering assumptions about the other. I’m a man, and that kind of behavior irritates me as well. To say “that’s just… Read more »
There are social factors that lead to “mansplaining,” sure, but it’s still a learned behavior and not essential to “maleness.”” That suggests you think men “shouldn’t” talk like that, not that men “don’t” talk like that. Do you deny that, at this point in time, whether you think it’s a bad idea or not, this IS how men “tend” to communicate? We’re not discussing how things would work out in happy fantasy land, after all, in that magical place, mansplaining wouldn’t need to be discussed because it wouldn’t exist, right? “It’s an indelicate and obtuse way of communicating with other… Read more »
When someone says something lie “men don’t see speaking about something another person knows as being condescending,” I assume they are speaking for all men. I assume they are implying that there is something essentially “male” about that behavior. I don’t consider “mansplaining” to be essentially male. To clarify, because I’m pretty sure we’re using different definitions here, mansplaining is when a man talks down to a woman about something the woman knows more about because he assumes the woman must not know anything about the subject they are talking about, regardless of the credentials the woman presents. To take… Read more »
Your first paragraph I can speak on much, because it wasn’t me who said that first phrase. That said, unless the word all is used, I generally accept statements like that as generalizations, not absolutes. And as generalizations have exceptions, it thereby doesn’t speak for “all” men, or “all” women, or feminists, or MRA’s, etc etc etc. I find conversations go a lot easier if you don’t assume someone speaks in absolutes, which makes a reasonable statement into an unreasonable one… for example, if I were to say “men are stronger than women”, this if taken as an absolute, is… Read more »
I find it interesting that much of the discussion on this site talks about men or women as a whole, as if “we” all do everything a set way, rather than “some” men or “some” women. One of the first key values of men’s groups is to speak in the first person from your own experience, rather than projecting your values onto everyone else. And on the notion of “men speaking to each other with disregard for each other’s feelings” Julie, I don’t see men as having any monopoly on that trait, women can do it to perfection. I have… Read more »
“So I don’t think women (or feminists) are trying to force men to conform to the way women speak. Rather, we keep hearing you all say you want to be freer to express your emotions, and we are just pointing out what that means for interpersonal communication.” I haven’t read all the comments here either but it’s clear to me that this “mansplaining” business is just another way for the feminists who use it to get in a dig at men, to demean and insult them for sharing their opinions, which women equally do. The evidence of this is that… Read more »
This isn’t a feminist concept, though. The term itself is, yes, but the concept behind it is much more widespread than feminism. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard my mom’s friends (who really aren’t feminists, and certainly aren’t familiar with feminist concepts) talk about how their husbands talk down to them, or speak to them without taking their emotions into account, etc. Average women do talk about this issue…they just don’t use to term.
“This isn’t a feminist concept, though.” Of course it is. Women complain about the way communicate. Men complain about the way women communicate. But, leave it to certain feminists to coin and use a term that tries to make it seem that only men do it, or are somehow worse. “I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard my mom’s friends (who really aren’t feminists, and certainly aren’t familiar with feminist concepts) talk about how their husbands talk down to them, or speak to them without taking their emotions into account, etc. Average women do talk about this issue…they… Read more »
Give me a break bro. Apparently structural power relationships and gendered language have absolutely nothing to do with men talking down to women. Being talked down to is especially common between women and mechanics, plumbers, repairmen, etc. I’ve heard a lot of women I know complain about these people not being willing to have a serious conversation with them unless a man was present. While a particularly stark example, it certainly isn’t limited to these interactions, and as a man, I’ve watched mansplaining in action and I’ve been privy to conversations between about women that clearly betray assumptions of inferiority.… Read more »
So let’s look at the way women talk down to men! Every week I open the newspaper (or any media) and there are women columnists telling us all how dumb and stupid men are for not doing this or not doing that the way women do it. The media in general, especially in Australia, has a pretty strong bent towards dumbing down men. Political incorrectness relates only to the way men talk about women, not about the way women talk about men. Another strong example, try being a man attending relationship counselling, any sort of health gathering or political scenario… Read more »
That’s unfortunately how things level out: by swinging the other way, first. I think that’s human nature. People leave strict homes and go wild for a while. People leave hippie homes and become Alex P. Keatons. Etc. People swing from extremes to find an equilibrium in their solitary lives, their relationships, in politics, and even our whole world.
I agree that men are not being depicted well in media. I do care. But I’ll care more when the men I hear complaining about men’s rights spend as much, if not more, time fighting for women’s.
Why would men fight for women’s rights if women aren’t already fighting for theirs? Feminism came before any major men’s right’s movement afaik, isn’t the onus on feminists or women to also show they care about men and thus get more male support? There is already an absolutely staggering level of support for women’s rights that totally dwarfs men’s rights activism, so a woman expecting a man to put more into women’s rights than he would for men’s rights is pretty damn silly. I support women’s rights, but it’s a field that is already saturated like crazy with support, men’s… Read more »
“Why would men fight for women’s rights if women aren’t already fighting for theirs? Feminism came before any major men’s right’s movement afaik, isn’t the onus on feminists or women to also show they care about men and thus get more male support?” Maybe I just happen to know a more balanced brand of feminists than you do, or maybe your perspective is skewed from looking at things from only one angle for too long, but most of the feminists I know do support men in fighting against the (IMO small) injustices done them. It’s interesting how there’s such a… Read more »
“Maybe I just happen to know a more balanced brand of feminists than you do” Yeah. We keep getting told that, but time after time after time we see feminist (not feminism) lead hatred of men (I shouldn’t have to say this, but the strawmen come out so easily in these discussions… I am not saying that this hated is at the forefront of feminism, but rather, these examples of hatred always seem to have feminist groups at their lead). And it should be noted that all three of the examples just provided have occurred at places of higher learning,… Read more »
I’ve never seen feminists fighting for financial abortion, very few on circumcision, don’t recall seeing many fighting selective service if any. I am from Australia if that helps, maybe the feminists you describe are more behind the scenes and aren’t very visible, the majority of feminists I see here tend to be radical feminists or gynocentric feminists and very clearly do not want men in their space, feminism is a woman’s space to them. Call it a strawman if you wish but just because our experience differs from yours doesn’t mean it’s wrong, did you ever consider that maybe the… Read more »
The second time should have included this link
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/05/20/robyn-urback-on-shocking-anti-male-hatred-on-the-sfu-campus/
” Maybe I just happen to know a more balanced brand of feminists than you do, or maybe your perspective is skewed from looking at things from only one angle for too long, but most of the feminists I know do support men in fighting against the (IMO small) injustices done them.” I think not, some feminist do, but the majority still feel unconfortable on this. And your statement ” IMO SMALL” is a testimony. In the next decade or the next again maybe we will see mens issues getting the same recognition that women issues have. But right now… Read more »
I’m sorry, I guess I was taking a global perspective when I said sexism against men was a relatively small issue. In the developed world things are a little more even, but can you honestly say circumcision and female genital mutilation are equivalent? Or that the treatment of women in places like Iran is equivalent to having to register for the draft? Yeah, there are messed up things men have to deal with. Injustice is everywhere. But come on, are you honestly going to look at the world as a whole and say “men have it just as bad as… Read more »
“In the developed world things are a little more even, but can you honestly say circumcision and female genital mutilation are equivalent?” Oh, of course not. One is banned in virtually every country in the world, and is seen as utterly abhorant, the other is actually being encouraged and presured onto men that aren’t even of the appropriate religions. And of course, I don’t know of any female mutilation that can compare with the positive spin that’s been put on Castration lately. You know, all SCUM manifesto like. And elswhere, men are jailed, without due process, for trying to be… Read more »
I honestly don’t think many feminists truly know how bad men get it. I’ve seen shock over n over when some feminists are told of the stats for rape and sexual abuse against men for instance, I see people gloss over the violence men face in favour of portraying women as more at risk of violence. I’m just not convinced many truly grasp how bad men get it, but I won’t say either gender get’s it bad. Currently my belief is that both men and women have it bad with some issues the same yet others are different. I disagree… Read more »
“Apparently structural power relationships and gendered language have absolutely nothing to do with men talking down to women.” Or vice-versa. Men don’t do it anymore than women. It’s just that feminists complain about it only when men do it, and have coined a term for it only when men do it. Of course. “Being talked down to is especially common between women and mechanics, plumbers, repairmen, etc.” You mean when they have to explain things to them things that they know nothing about and don’t care to know? So, simplifying a concept to a person who had no idea of… Read more »
“So, what percentage of plumbers and auto mechanics are female? If they are so interested in such matters, why do so few pursue those endeavors professionally?” While I would add the caveat that, it is understandable that a woman who actually does know about these things would rightly feel patronized if a man insisted on dumbing it down to what he would for those uninterested, it is easier to start low and advance then to have to start over at a lower level of expertise till you find the right one. As someone who helps a lot of people on… Read more »
I have NEVER been talked down to by a woman like I am by men on a very regular basis. I can only think of one woman who has been condescending to me in the past two years. Certainly, no woman would ever makes suggestions to me about how to eat cold food vs. hot food.
Okay. So what is going on when a man who has never studied history outside of high school tells a woman with a PhD in history that premodern men in the West shunned colours other than black and brown as unmasculine, in the face of her careful explainations that descriptions and drawings throughout this period indicate that men wore and liked a variety of colours, that the adoption of a limited colour palettes for masculine attire is modern, ie post 1500, and that premodern people simply had different ideas about masculinity, and then insists that she (the person with the… Read more »
Heather, do your women friends also talk about how some women talk down to each other, and to men? You only have to look at the fashion pages and beauty media to see how some women crucify each other over looks and style, just as one example. “We” all do it, regardless of gender. The number of “spiritual women’s” websites I have seen that degrade and debase men as being inferior and unenlightened is phenomenal. I also take note of the way women in general speak about men amongst themselves and to men, and the amount of put-down and sexist… Read more »
So, if ‘mansplaining’ isn’t something men do just to women, but rather just the way men speak…then I’m left wondering why men speak to each other with such disregard for each other’s feelings. The same reason that any member of any group speaks to or of fellow members of their own group in such ways. Its about being raised with the belief that “that is the way it is”. But if ‘mansplaining’ is just the way men talk to each other…well then that’s just continuing the problem of stifling men’s emotions, of assuming that men don’t have as wide a… Read more »
Sorry, should have been a bit clearer that my questions were mostly rhetorical…because yeah I meant to make a mention of how the answer to ‘why’ was traditional gender norms. And Danny, this is where you and I will totally end up disagreeing, because your experience of feminists and my experience have been completely different. You seem to be assuming that most feminists are using the term ‘mansplaining’ to shut down communication. And I’m saying that whenever I’ve heard anyone use that term (or talk about the concept without necessarily using that term) it’s always been in an attempt to… Read more »
You seem to be assuming that most feminists are using the term ‘mansplaining’ to shut down communication. No I’m not assuming its used for silencing purposes. I just think I’m more willing to say that it is used for that purpose than others are. As I said mansplaining certain does happen, and I’m pretty sure I’ve copped to doing myself before. In fact I just had a conversation yesterday that migh be seen as mansplianing. A coworker of mine that’s currently pregnant was talking about what her pregnancy had done to her hair. Now while I certainly put on an… Read more »
Hair does changes during and after pregnancy. Mostly in terms of oil production during hormonal changes (so it seems glossier) and more follicles grow during pregnancy and then there is dryness (less oil) and hair loss (the extra hair) after the fact. Trufax, though every body is different.
You can get acne and rosacea and stretchmarks and your ligaments relax and your feet grow a bit and hips widen and often don’t shrink back. Something like a 1/3 more blood volume. Constipation, hemmeroids are common, swelling, kidney strain, sciatica and more!
Not rosacea, melasma. Sorry. Wrong term.
Oh well in that case, sign me up. lol 🙂
That’s just what she said.
And low and behold what did I, someone who will never be able to become pregnant do? Tried to tell someone that that doesn’t happen, while they were pregnant at that.
Do you know why you did that? Not snark, really just asking. Is it because it doesn’t seem logical that hair would be affected by pregnancy? Or did you think she was acting irrationally about her hair?
I think there is just so much we all don’t know (and about so much) that maybe it’s frightening at some level (male and female alike). I mean, what do I know about men’s parts and it could be easy for me to say, “Well that’s all in your head.” when it isn’t.
Cause I know I’ve done things just like that…anyway…pregnancy! Hard work!
Womansplainer!:P
It didn’t seem logical. I mean I understand that a growing child feeds off the mother’s body and in doing that the mother’s body is affected. Just didn’t think that hair would be affected. Now if she had said something like, “I’m tired all the time”, “I’m low on (insert vitamin/mineral)”, “Look at my pale skin”, etc…I wouldn’t have questioned it because those things make logical sense to me.
Danny: So did you say, “No it doesn’t affect hair.” or did you say, “Hey, I’ve never heard of that what do you mean? That sounds unreasonable to me.” Because those are entirely different statements. Archy: I think (and this is my opinion) that saying “I don’t think that happens” is a less positive to learn about pregnancy. I mean, you might learn about pregnancy. But it’s as likely that you’ll piss the person off then learn about pregnancy. It begins with a negation ” I don’t think.” rather than an opening “Really? Why does that happen, I’m unfamiliar with… Read more »
Danny: So did you say, “No it doesn’t affect hair.” or did you say, “Hey, I’ve never heard of that what do you mean? That sounds unreasonable to me.” Because those are entirely different statements.
It was more, “Eh….I know pregnancy can do things to a woman’s body…but….uh….I don’t think…that’s one of them.” And there was actualy hesitation and pause between those words.
Yeah. So outside of the whole “splaining” thing, I wonder why (and I do this too) there is more of a impulse to say “I don’t think this…” instead of “hey, tell me more about that, I’ve never heard of it.” Like, I see people do this all the time, and I wonder if it’s because knowledge is currency and if we admit we don’t know something then we worry we’ll look weak? Because not knowing is the first step TO knowing and asking questions is a great way to learn things. Dunno. To me that’s perhaps a cultural thing… Read more »
” I wonder why (and I do this too) there is more of a impulse to say “I don’t think this…” instead of “hey, tell me more about that, I’ve never heard of it.”” I suspect it is because, even if they can’t properly defend their position, by admitting you have never heard of it, you completely undermine your own. Some people this doesn’t matter with, but some will dismiss anything you have to say if you admit it’s just assumption or sounds reasonable once past their explanation. And I don’t think this dismissal is any more or less gendered… Read more »
People often make big fuckups in how they ask questions, communicate, etc. We could all use some training on how to communicate better. His intention could be to find out more, but his communication can sound negative without him realizing, especially as it depends on how the other person perceives it.
I don’t think can also mean they’re guessing it isn’t right. The hesitation and pause implies guesswork, if he said it as a fact I’d assume he’d not pause and state it. To be mansplaining I THINK 😛 it would be more like “That doesn’t happen in pregnancy”, a statement of fact.
Fair enough. “I don’t think” doesn’t sound like a guess to me. The words are negating. “I don’t know” “I am guessing but” etc are more clear. In any regard, why not just say “Wow, that’s something I’ve never heard of and it sounds so weird. Is that really true?”
“In any regard, why not just say “Wow, that’s something I’ve never heard of and it sounds so weird. Is that really true?””
The other would have to be seen as negative and discussed for it to register as such otherwise a person will continue using it. Speech can be weird:P
“Fair enough. “I don’t think” doesn’t sound like a guess to me. The words are negating. “I don’t know” “I am guessing but” etc are more clear. ”
I’ve used both, depending on my own confidence and who I’m speaking with. I think/don’t think does indicate a willingness to be proven wrong, however, it does also indicate a “your wrong” won’t be sufficient. For example, your reply regarding hair wasn’t just “yes, pregnancy does affect hair”, instead, you actually explained it out… You taught several of us something (rather than just telling us we’re wrong).
@Julie What’s wrong with negation? Here’s where I suspect an essential difference in communication depending on gender. What I *think* you’re suggesting, is that negation in communication is an unkind thing, because it invalidates the person you’re disagreeing with *as a person* and makes them feel inferior, disrespected, or some other combo of feelings it sucks to have. That sounds to me like a more typically (but not exclusively) feminine way to interpret negation – taking it very personally. Men (typically, but not exclusively) do not so closely identify an expressed idea, fact, or emotion, with the person expressing it,… Read more »
While I can see your point, I’m thinking less of how someone feels about being negated or taking it personally, and more that I do think that going around negating people is kind of less than friendly thing to do (it sets one up in opposition all the time), it also seems inefficient to me. If you don’t know something, why not admit it and learn, rather than starting from a place of “No, but” “Yes, And” opens the door for collaboration and more information. And how you asked me was open: YOu asked,”What’s wrong with this” instead of saying,… Read more »
And I suspect that if you were constantly negated (the interactions were subtly negating your views) on those issues, you’d get tired of it. At the very least why hang out with people who are negative and tend to shut down conversation rather than open it up?
“And how you asked me was open: YOu asked,”What’s wrong with this” instead of saying, “No, this is the better way.” ” And this is where I think Marcus is pointing to different interpretations. I don’t think leaves clear room, to me anyways, for me to accept I’m wrong if you can make your case. “No, this way is better” does not. So these (to me, and I suspect to Marcus and others) are not the equivalent. The “No, this is the better way” statement sounds like a response from someone who DOES know and is confident in their knowledge… Read more »
“See, again I see this as different. the “I don’t think it works that way” isn’t a desire for clarification, it is a statement of opinion with an opening left open to be corrected, but it leaves an understanding that correction will need to be negotiated, not just accepted.” It MAY leave an understand that correction will need to be negotiated. Depending on the person you are talking to. I’d say it’s more likely that men see this as a opportunity for challenge and correction, and women (particularly of a certain generation) will see that as an authoritative statement that… Read more »
“I’d say it’s more likely that men see this as a opportunity for challenge and correction, and women (particularly of a certain generation) will see that as an authoritative statement that is not to be challenged.” And this is what we are discussing, how men and women interpret things differently and bring rise to “mansplaining”. See, the two above interpretations are completely different, and one is constructive (encorages debate and learning) and one is dismissive and even oppressive. And having these misunderstandings is fine, it happens. The problem with mansplaining, from my perspective is, despite the fact I as a… Read more »
“See, the two above interpretations are completely different, and one is constructive (encorages debate and learning) and one is dismissive and even oppressive.” Except, if you look at the social influences which have created the second one, it’s really not dismissive or oppressive. It’s a reaction to being dismissed and even oppressed, historically. That’s why Julie mentioned “particularly of a certain generation.” If a woman is used to men talking down to her (or at the very least used to society telling her that, as a woman, she is inherently less knowledgeable about certain topics than men), then when a… Read more »
I’m going to attempt to jump this to a new branch, quoting Heather’s latest. Please join me if you’re interested.
I can totally imagine doing what Danny did, without any internal sense of “let’s set this silly little lady straight about pregnancy”, but just giving voice to skepticism on something that doesn’t make sense to me, and offering my own hypothesis. And then, when the person I expressed it to, or someone more knowledgable like Julie here sets me straight, it’d be one of those whooda-thunkit moments and I’d move on in life with one more piece of trivia filling up my brain. To me, that arc could roughly be summed up as skepticism-discovery-knowledge. That arc is just part of… Read more »
Well, it usually feels that way. I mean, I could imagine someone hearing “Pregnancy is affecting my hair.” and being skeptical. But I can also imagine them saying, “Really? I”ve never heard/thought about that. What do you mean?” and then getting information from the woman who may actually have information. But what I’m hearing from you is that it’s more likely (or possible) that the reaction would be more directive like “I don’t see that that’s possible.” and yeah, it seems dismissive rather than curious/information seeking.
You said you don’t THINK it would affect hair. You didn’t say it won’t, Big difference I think. Sounds like you tried your best to think up whether it would happen or not, made a guess, gave an opinion that you didn’t think it would happen. I wouldn’t call that mansplaining at all, that’s not from a point of patronization, and it’s actually a great way to learn yourself about pregnancy as it opens up for her to discuss how it does happen. But then again, I wasn’t there, I just don’t see how that is even close to mansplaining… Read more »
“You seem to be assuming that most feminists are using the term ‘mansplaining’ to shut down communication. And I’m saying that whenever I’ve heard anyone use that term (or talk about the concept without necessarily using that term) it’s always been in an attempt to open up communication. ” And this is why mansplaining is such a problem, just as Danny assigned a motive you find offensive and not aptly applicable in your experience as a member of the targeted group to the use of the term based on being a part of the targeted group, the accusation of mansplaining… Read more »
Hi there, I know this is a old comment. Im not trying to “eat” you (im not a cannibal lol) but I like to comment your line in your answer to Danny. “I don’t know if most of your experience with feminists has been online and in particularly crappy online spaces? Maybe that’d explain our very different experiences.” We are living in 2012 (almost 2013) not 1996. Therefore almust everybody is online. You cant live nowadays without internet (school, jobs, entertaining ect) so that distinction between online and offline feminist I dont think it exist anymore. I always get puzzled… Read more »
I’ve been trying to figure that one out myself Blurpo.
For some reason apparently going from online to offline or vice versa, unlike any other thing in existence, actually does change feminism and feminists.
“And yes it is self defeating when it comes to stifling men’s emotional freedoms.” How so? I’ve never had a problem telling someone they are patronizing me when I feel patronized, so I’m not sure how this stiffles my feelings? Thing is, I don’t generally feel patronized in these kinds of discussions, What I feel is the need to demonstrate I know what he’s saying and to move on to the next point until we find an area one of us is lacking in knowledge. “get to the point” is something I have said to men far more than women,… Read more »
But has anyone then told you that you were mistaken when you’ve told them that they are being patronized?
“basically saying that ‘mansplaining’ is just the way men speak, and that by labelling it as such and suggesting it’s a bad thing, we (mostly feminists) are somehow saying that men should conform to the way women speak.” It’s not just about it being labeled and called bad, it’s about the naferious motives assigned to men. Men mainsplain because they think the woman is stupid, or doesn’t know anything, or thinks hes better than women, etc etc etc. It’s the assigning of some hostile motive onto the man in order to justify your own feelings of being offended that is… Read more »
Mansplaining isn’t how men talk, it CAN be one form of how men talk. If it goes too far, usually men will speak up, tell the other guy they’re wrong, tell em off, etc. I think mansplaining would have to be used in specific cases, a woman bringing up the fact the man is being patronizing (but first actually ask if he means to). Mansplaining seems to be very close to the common information sharing men tend to do, it makes me wonder now if I should even bother, or if I should continue my normal routine and wait for… Read more »
“So, if ‘mansplaining’ isn’t something men do just to women, but rather just the way men speak…then I’m left wondering why men speak to each other with such disregard for each other’s feelings.”
Could just be men don’t see it as negative, thus there is no disregard for each other’s feelings. Maybe we realize the man isn’t trying to assume we don’t know, but is simply sharing potential new information. It all depends on how the person views the behaviour, but as I said elsewhere I think there’s probably confusing to the meaning as it’s used in 2 ways.
i suspect mansplaining is culturally somewhat gendered but not so much genetically. i believe it tends to happen when people want to be and feel right, rather than being primarily interested in understanding the dynamic truth/s of a situation.
The real question is why does any adult let another person lecture them….unless they’re getting paid to listen?
Alright explain something to me.
“mansplaining” in this comment thread has been compared to terms such as “henpecking” and “bitching” …but women have been spending the last few decades saying that henpeck and bitching are sexist terms that rely on negative stereotypes of women
…but we’re supposed to believe that “mansplaining” has a valid and useful purpose in the english language.
Why?
Oh the delicious hypocrisy. Feminists want their feelings and experiences accepted as absolute truth but will immediately tell a man he’s flat-out wrong if his feelings or experiences contradict feminist theory in any way. (If you don’t believe me, try going to any feminist forum and talk about how you don’t feel particularly privileged as a man.) It seems from my experience and a lot of the comments here that a lot of “mansplaining” is actually just normal male communication. In other words, much of “mansplaining” is just another facet of gynocentrism – assuming that the female way of doing… Read more »
Correct.
All I know is that I’ve seen people get told they are “mansplaining” simply for being a man offering an opinion a woman disagrees with.
I propose a new word: “Fembuttal” [fem-BUH-tuhl] – A dismissive way for a feminist to claim victory in a debate by characterizing disagreement as a failure to understand, or defeating an opposing argument by calling it “mansplaining”. (To keep it gendered in a fair way, if a man does roughly the same thing, it’s “masculogic”.) Also, to describe the phenomenon of a man *accidentally* over-explaining to a woman who feels patronized, I suggets the more man-friendly label: elaborbation. “I’m a professional wedding photographer, I don’t need your input on what lens to use.” “Oh, pardon me. I was just elaborbating,… Read more »
“Hey, DJ! When are we going to hear some Macarena up in this joint?!”
The answer to that question should, legally, be “never”
As Oprah herself said: “Men are solution-oriented.” So, when we see/hear/learn of a problem, we tend to go straight into problem solving / solution identifying mode. Le’ts eliminate the problem now. No need to even talk about it. Make it go away. Period.
In my experience, women often want to “talk through/about” problems, not just wanting an instant, “do this”, sometime even when they recognize the solution themselves. My wife tells me that she feels better talking about it, expressing how she feels about it, and eventually arriving at a conclusion, rather than laser focusing on the solution straight away.
Joanna… would you mind mansplaining to me why you are still here bogged down in this mansplaining marathon? Eh?
Oh. Uh. Never mind.
Ricky Ricardo: “LUUUUU—CYY!! You haaave some ‘splaining to do…!”
All I know is, while my son and I were practicing piano (he’s played for a few months, and I”ve played for years), he totally boysplained to me how middle C was in the middle. I had to stop and figure out if I should check him, or recognize it as him trying to show me what he knew.
It was kind of hilarious, given this whole thread.
Better be careful. He’s trying to get an early start on exerting his “male privilege” over you. Next thing you know he’ll be trying to say you shouldn’t vote, not be ‘allowed’ to play sports, and that your only role in life is to get married and have babies.
Or so I hear…
I know. I’d better start doing something vaguely misandric.
Haha.
Here’s what you do. Assume that he is going to grow up into a rapist and then shame him for it. I know that calls for assuming he is going to be a sex offender when he’s barely started to develop anything in the ball park of sexuality (much less anything about consent). And then if/when he realizes what you are doing is wrong gaslight him by telling him he only thinks that way because he is denying his male privilege.
Man, I was just planing on rolling my eyes at his soccer game. I’m too tired to do all that other stuff!
(I’m so loving taking a chance to lighten the mood around here on this post.)
Oh the ‘men are brutes’ method? Not a bad choice. But you might have to get a little bit more active about it. At least make the occasional offhand comment about how brutish he is or something. Maybe through in a ‘barbarian’ crack.
OMG yes. I’m actually proud of his game lately. He’s got a GF and he’s 8.
I know that you’re being slightly facetious here, but that’s often how kids learn and are encouraged to learn – by repeating something that the adult in question already knows.
Um, I”m being entirely facetious.
And as someone with kids and who works with students, I know that’s a manner in which they learn. I was just amused by the timing, given the thread yesterday. That’s why I thought it would be amusing to post it.
I realized I was sorta ‘splaining to you 🙁
But I do think that a big part of encouraging learning is to allow people to be proud of what they’ve learned, and I appreciate that my own parents indulged me in that way.
I’ve known people, both men and women, who repeat the same stories sometimes, and I indulge them because I don’t want to say “heard it before.”
I didn’t take it the wrong way, no worries. 😉
That’s exactly what I was thinking when I sent this post in. I meant to ask Joanna if she could find a creative commons photo of Ricky Ricardo. Would have been epic.
The thing about mansplaining is that it’s not actually real. We know that women do it too (try talking to a female Gender Studies major when you’re a man, it’s not going to work). So if it’s not gendered, why is there still a gendered term? Well, we’re told that it has to do with a “feeling.” The thing about feelings is that they exist solely within the minds of the people feeling them. If a feeling is negative (fear, anger), then it is up to the individual involved to understand why and to deal with it on their own.… Read more »
Do you believe that there are men out there that patronize other people, men or women?
I’d say there are.
There are men who patronize women. And yes every other gender combination.
Is it the job of women to get over feeling patronized? I’d say they should definitely push back and say, quit the fuck patronizing me. And then the man should maybe catch a clue about his personal interactions.
And yes, every other gender combination.
You are swapping “mansplaining” for patronizing. This is no an accurate swap because the one term is gendered, and the other is not.
If people are feeling patronized, then they should feel free to speak up about it.
If people are feeling that men are unfairly patronizing to women as a result of their gender, then is a negative stereotype, and it must be dealt with by the people who grant the stereotype credence, not the population at large.
Huh?
If you are mugged by a black man, feel free to get mad at the mugger.
If you get mad at black people in general as a result of the mugging, you need to work on this, not invent a term for your irrational feelings and then try to justify them because “Some black people have actually mugged me.”
Wait, I think I get it.
Mansplaining is a form of patronizing. But it’s a specific type. A type I’ve detailed a few times in these comments.
The population at large is who grants merit to the idea of women needing to be daddy-ed through things. It’s not every individual, but society at large.
I’m out. I’m getting too annoyed by the impressive lack of understanding in this conversation.
“I’m out. I’m getting too annoyed by the impressive lack of understanding in this conversation.”
Yes Joanna, there’s no such thing as disagreement, only people who “don’t understand.”
Mike – let me provide some rationale…with a more specific example – auto mechanic expertise. In the above context, I feel confident stating that, on average, and in terms of better than a coin flip, men assume that we don’t have as much expertise as they do. It is indeed a stereotype, but one that could be classified as factual. In the same vein, it is a factual statement that minority X statistically commits more crime by proportion. In the auto mechanic context, a male that uses the stereotype recklessly can come across as patronizing. The irony is that the… Read more »
I like this comment a great deal.
Great comment!
Agreed. Well said.
I agree the comment is great. To Elissa’s list I would add another. Many men mansplain because it is their way of thinking through something. My Dad does this. He tells you obvious things in order to explain his reasoning from beginning to end. Hell I do this. And he hates being interrupted because it interrupts his train of thought. In fact I often go for long walks and have imaginary conversations in my head where I am explaining something to someone or a group of people in order to think something through. In some cases of I lose my… Read more »
Is there such a thing as, I dunno, reverse mansplaining? I had an Ex who came to me with some problem with her car. The conversation, roughly, went like this: “It’s making some weird noises like a pinging sound. What the heck is wrong with it?” “How should I know?” (I am lucky if I can change a tire correctly.) “Well, you’re a guy aren’t you? Go fix it” You can see why she’s an ex. Honestly I should have tried to fix it for her, I inevitably would have broken something important and probably cost her twice the amount… Read more »
I hadn’t understood what the term actually referred to until yesterday, but reading it now it really shouldn’t be a gendered term, I’ve seen both genders do this to both genders.
If some women react worse to patronising speech by men (rather than by other women) that’s fine, all feelings are valid and should be explored. But if that feeling is purely dependant on the genitalia of the patroniser it may have more to do with their own internal processes than anything patronising men do different than patronising women.
Peter,
Usually I agree with you, but I cannot get behind this sentiment:
“all feelings are valid and should be explored”
Some feelings, and I’m thinking specifically of those associated with generalized negative stereotypes (such as the fear that comes from having your child watched by a man), are completely invalid and need to be recognized as such.
We do not gain by encouraging the “exploration” of the emotions that support bigotted reactions.
I propose that the exploration of feelings and attitudes is important in the process of dismantling bigotry. Exploring them doesn’t mean that the result is the feeling is valid (valid meaning correct). A person has feelings and those feelings may have helped shape opinions which may then feel like truth. Looking into the feelings (I am afraid of men/women) and determining where they came from (I had a negative personal experience and also see my feelings mirrored in media) may help to reduce the truthiness of the feeling. Exposure to new experiences may mean new feelings. Valid, in the sense… Read more »
Look, what people want to do with their own feelings is their own business. Where is becomes a problem is when I, as not the person who originated the feeling, am expected to deal with it. As a man, I should not have to deal with other people’s negative feelings, based upon unfair stereotypes, about whether or not I can be trusted to watch their kids. Similarly, I should not have to put up with labels like “mansplaining” simply because there are women out their who experience this feeling based upon a negative stereotype. If you need to explore feelings… Read more »
As a woman, I should also not have to deal with other people’s negative feelings, based on unfair stereotypes about whether or not I value men for their utility etc etc. Neither should I have to put up with labels like “gold-digging’ or “henpecking” simply because there are men out there who experience this feeling etc etc. But guess what. I interact with hundreds of people in a day, many of whom (most of whom) have feelings and opinions that may or may not have anything to do with me. While I don’t owe anyone anything simply because I am… Read more »
I agree with you that you shouldn’t have to put up with ideas like “gold-digging.” I am not sure that “hen-pecking” has been a thing since the 1960s, but if you say so, then yes, you should not have to deal with it either. I am not asking you to put up with any of this. I was further under the impression that this was why we were all here. I believe that a good man does not recklessly accuse women of “gold-digging” because thee term has become gendered, and perpetuates a negative stereotype. Likewise I do not think it… Read more »
I have no idea if you should do that or not, but since I’ve often seen men here claim that women are hypergamous, marry up etc and only value men for their utility and monetary worth, I suspect those folks are already afraid of gold digging.
I am not afraid of splaining no matter what gender it comes from, I”m merely annoyed by it.
Julie, can we make some kind of a deal where you will stop bringing up “men here” so long as I (and I already do this) do not hold you to the statements by RadFems?
I’m a little tired of being told “Oh but a man on here once said…” as a defense for an extreme viewpoint.
Just as feminists should not be allowed to define their own feminism, I think it’s only fair that men be allowed to define their own viewpoints.
Mike, I”m merely bringing up what I’ve heard men say here. I believe they fear those things because they’ve said they do. Should I not believe them, because they seem to be defining that viewpoint and I’m not telling them not to? Which is why I don’t know what you should tell your friends/compatriots.
And frankly, I know hundreds more men NOT here that don’t fear those things and I believe them too. I believe people when they tell me about themselves. I”m pretty clear that many people who have told me they are fearful of being valued only for their utility mean it. And that the ones who don’t fear it, also mean it.
The radfems? Maybe they mean what they say and you can believe them if you like. What i say? I’d hope you believe me.
I think there’s a difference between believing what people say and granting validity to their feelings. I have feelings all the time that are completely invalid. I recognize and deal with them. When we see a term like “mansplaining” enter the vocabulary, it suggests that the internal process which should have taken place failed to take place. Instead of someone thinking to themselves “Is it irrational to blame the behavior of this individual on his gender?” the mechanism broke and someone decided to say “Men, in general, will exhibit the following negative behavior…” This was picked up by others whose… Read more »
Um…there shouldn’t be a “not” in that last setence.
Feminists SHOULD be allowed to define their own feminism…
First, if anyone could explain to me how “mansplaining” has any relation to someone trusting you with children, I’d love to hear it.
I know that there are many negative stereotypes of men that damage the way society sees men in relation to children, but this one isn’t it.
Second, women experience this not because of a negative stereotype of MEN but because of something that SOME men actually DO, Mike.
Maybe you don’t do it, so then you shouldn’t worry about it. Right?
Do you also think we should rid the world of “bitching” and “henpecking”?
Just curious.
I haven’t heard the term “henpecking” used anywhere except for an episode of Mad Men. I do not know where you live/who you interact with, but it is difficult for me to believe this is a “real term.” Maybe it was 50 years ago, but not today. Both mansplaining and trusting men to watch children are centered around negative stereotypes. That’s it. That’s the relationship. There are more apt relationships, but when I use words to describe them my comments often wind up “in moderation.” Over time I’ve tried to use words that are less likely to trigger that particular… Read more »
And finally, you can go about in your life saying, “I shouldn’t have to have empathy for you because of an experience I didn’t cause” but my gut feeling here is that an attitude like that isn’t going to win you many friends or great intimacies.
I could be wrong, but “it’s not my problem” tends to put people off from trusting a person.
And should we tell People of Color that racism is “their problem”?
What? It’s their problem and it’s connected to people causing the problem, thus other people’s problem too. And it’s my problem even if I’m not racist, because I’m part of a system that it exists in and I can either help reduce it by being observant to attitudes, feelings and situations that reduce it, or I could say, “It’s not my problem and I shouldn’t have to put up with people assuming things about me that I didn’t do.” I believe Joanna is saying that the latter attitude isn’t helpful. You may not be racist, but that doesn’t mean you… Read more »
I mean that racism should be dealt with by the racists.
It is unfair to put the burden on People of Color to correct racism. Just as it is unfair to put the burden on men to correct mansplaining.
The burden must be born by those who originate the invalid feelings in the first place.
I think racism should be dealt with by anyone who is affected by it or in a system where it exists. If I see something occur that is racist, and it has nothing to do with me at all, why wouldn’t I comment on it, learn from it, teach from it etc? Or should I just ignore it since “it has nothing to do with me” Perhaps we see this very differently. I view this as the water we all swim in. We are all affected to some degree by the history of race in this country, slavery’s legacy etc.… Read more »
” I view this as the water we all swim in. We are all affected to some degree by the history of race in this country, slavery’s legacy etc. For me as a white person to say, “well I figure I’m not racist, so I don’t have to participate, pay attention to my feelings or the feelings around a subject” seems…cut off and detached in a way that I don’t think is actually realistic given that I live and participate in the same system as others.” Sounds very much like an argument I routinely make, often argued against with “I… Read more »
It is unfair to put the burden on People of Color to correct racism. Just as it is unfair to put the burden on men to correct mansplaining. The burden must be born by those who originate the invalid feelings in the first place. There is a bit of a split when it comes to mansplaining. On one hand the men (as in its a subset of all men) that do engage in that behavior do have the burden on them to stop doing it but at the same time the people who use the term mansplaining to shut men… Read more »
As for rapists per se, yes rapists should stop raping. But given that it’s quite possible they are damaged or ifferent in some way as to rape in the first place how would we assume that asking them to stop would work? So the onus is on reporting, police work, and legal strateggies designed to make very uncomfortable for the rapist. So I think it means all of us have a part in stopping rape and also the systems where rape develops. Prisons come to mind, for one. If rapists are sociopaths why would they stop? If racists believe that… Read more »
I mean all feelings are valid in the sense that the subject is genuinely feeling them and labelling them as “invalid” isn’t the same as dealing with them and won’t make them go away. This isn’t to say that some feelings don’t provoke problematic behaviour.
@ Mike L
I don’t know that the feelings themselves are invalid. The way that they are acted upon though has consequence. I know that regardless of whether my favorite sports team wins or loses, my life remains unaltered, but I still feel good when they win and am not happy when they lose. It’s OK to feel that way.
It happens to me at nearly EVERY wedding I have ever photographed, and it’s never come from a woman. Ever. It’s always done in a very patronizing way. “So, what camera lens are you using, hmmm, no flash?” “You’re going with a WIDE angle?” (look of disbelief), “interesting choice of lens, well, you’re the pro I guess.” I don’t know if the point is to let me know that they also have some (super basic) knowledge of photography, or if they are just being patronizing and/or arrogant, but it’s NEVER done in a way that is anything less than rude.… Read more »
Every consider they are trying to start up a conversation with someone who clearly shares an interest with them? Lets look at your quotes: “So, what camera lens are you using, hmmm, no flash?” Tone will of course play a part here and all the quotes, but I see this as far more akin to trying to learn from you, get your reasoning. No flash could be seen as condescending, but my first impression (and I suspect it’s yours as well, whether you realise it or not, is that it was a question, not a criticism. I base this on… Read more »
I’m not a cynic, but this is clearly NOT the case. how about i add this to the look of disbelief: chuckle, and eyeroll. things are communicated in person that i cannot convey with only type. i’m extremely personable when i am on the job, but this type of thing is very frustrating. it is NOT an attempt to start a business or hobby related conversation. i wouldn’t have even bothered commenting on this post if i were even on the fence about it being patronizing.
i have had people “talk shop” with me on the job, and it’s just an entirely different vibe/tone/ etc. of course women can be patronizing too, it’s not gender specific to patronize, but in my personal experience, after shooting over, I don’t know, 70-80 weddings, this particular brand of talking down to me, or trying to tell me how my own equipment works (when some of them cannot even got the make/model of my camera correct) has only come from men. I really wish I knew why.
Possibly some just want to be helpful and it’s a desperate attempt, it does sound like many are just patronizing lil shits though.
@ Annie
Do you notice a difference when you “talk shop” with men in the same industry? In my department, most of the techs are cool, but the most condescending guy (with everyone not just women) is also the least skilled. I’m wondering if it’s to hide insecurity.
Dude, please don’t question somebody’s personal experience.
Seriously? Are you suggesting I’m not allowed to even QUESTION what her experiences were? I can’t suggest that MAYBE, she might have injected a motive that didn’t exist? I can understand if I was denying her experiences actually happened the way she claims, but to say I can’t even QUESTION her experiences? Why shouldn’t I?
Yes, seriously. If she has stated that this regularly happens to her, this is her experience and you should respect it. She is the best judge of whether something is ill-intended or not, not some second-hand analysis over the internet from somebody who’s never met her. Amie has generously shared her account of what it is like to be a professional female photographer. You simply cannot provide a personal account that contradicts that. If you’re not inclined to believe her, you could cast around for opinions from other women in similar careers — but from what I’ve heard in the… Read more »
She’s a better judge than me, who wasn’t there, but that doesn’t mean she can’t be wrong. That doesn’t mean she might have interpreted it through a biased lens and not considered alternatives. and that CERTAINLY doesn’t mean she is above reproach. I can’t believe you seriously, honestly believe I do not have a right to question her experiences for misinterpretations. Who do you think you are? Who do you think she is? Furthermore, Amie responded on her own and defended her position, as she’s a big girl, she can do that you know. I did not push that further.… Read more »
Of course you’re not allowed a personal opinion on what it’s like to be a woman. Why would you even think that? Are you now or have you ever been one? If not, then you’re going to have to stop guessing, and ask women their opinions.
The fact that you even feel the need to question this is not so much an insult to any individual woman as it is an insult to basic logic and common sense.
I really do not get this. If you know people find the phrase insulting and hurtful, and you are noth trying to hurt anyone’s feelings, why would you use the phrase?
Jacobtk,
There’s nothing to get. This is not unlike someone saying “If you could just understand why I discriminate, we’d all be better off…”
This is rarely the case, and the individuals involved would probably disagree if we were discussing any form of discrimination that wasn’t gender.
As it is, they’re going to do back flips and resort of subjective interpretations (e.g. “Maybe it doesn’t happen but it’s a *feeling*”) in order to convince themselves that this is a useful term for something other than discrimination.
We can only hope that one day they will see the truth.
Would it be less hurtful if I told you that you were patronizing me? Or demeaning me?
It’s hurtful because someone is being called out on a specific behavior.
Tell me I’m bitching (when I’m bitching) or tell me I’m henpecking you (if I am). It’s gonna hurt, but I don’t think it damages women if you say it.
“It’s hurtful because someone is being called out on a specific behavior.”
No, it is hurtful because it perpetuates a negative stereotype.
There’s a reason it’s called “mansplaining” and not “personsplaining.”
Joanna, your comment reminded me of a quote from the Hagakure:
By bringing shame to a person, how could one expect to make him a better man?
But it doesn’t work that way in practice. “Bitching” and “Henpecking” are loaded terms that generally insult women, and yet few acknowledge that mansplaining might be hurtful.
It is regularly used to shut down debate on feminist blogs, so I definitely see the sinister side of it. As a concept, it can be useful. And I think a lot of its sexist nature can be cancelled out by shortening it to ‘splaining. After all, there are so many axes of oppression/stereotyping out there, and it’s applicable to any of them. People can and do assume ignorance based not only on gender, but on race (especially if you have an accent), age, or disability. And yes, it happens to men also. My mother-in-law has ‘splained the most basic… Read more »
1. Who says a man that’s “mansplaining” doesn’t have more knowledge on the subject than the woman ? Are we supposed to believe the woman in the discussion is automatically in the right ? 2. The term is and will be used by someone to brand themselves as the “victor” in a discussion and shut down the the conversation. Just add this to “white privilege”, male privilege” & “misogynistic”. 3. We’re suppose to believe that “MANsplaining” is only done by man, hence the placement of word “man” in the term. I’ve been in conversation with men & woman, young &… Read more »
Tell me exactly how it harms you.
I’m not saying it doesn’t, I’m just curious how it harms you.
It’s harmful because….
It stereotype men, it’s thought of as something only men do which is experienced so much that a term needed to be created for it.
Both men & woman have done it and experienced it, we don’t need a gender-based term for it.
The term adds more fuel to the fire of a woman who believes she can’t be wrong, so man is already seem as wrong before he opens his mouth.
If someone won’t even look at evidence that could disprove their claim, why should we take what they have to say seriously ?
“Who says a man that’s “mansplaining” doesn’t have more knowledge on the subject than the woman ? Are we supposed to believe the woman in the discussion is automatically in the right ?” I was meaning to make that point earlier, but was responding to someone and didn’t find a quote to loop the topic in. The articles definition of mansplaining does precisely that when it says ” or how you are wrong about something you are actually right about,” as if because the woman believes she’s right she must be. This idea is followed up in the “bonus points”… Read more »
“I don’t think the men who “mansplain” are trying to do anything bad. I don’t think they even know they’re doing it. They don’t think they’re being patriarchal or misogynistic.” I’ve heard this said several times about gaslighting as well. That men don’t mean to be doing these things out of spite or something, they just “don’t know” they are doing it. Of course gaslighting pretty much has to be movie villain intentional but that’s another matter. I still heard this kind of comment. So, what we’re saying is that men aren’t mean, they’re just totally devoid of any form… Read more »
Well it could be that the men don’t see it as patronizing, and maybe haven’t had women in their lives call them up about the mansplaining. If this is the case I don’t blame men for not knowing, we’re not mind-readers:P. What are we teaching our boys (and girls for the equivalent) if they grow up to overexplain this stuff on autopilot?
Is this one of those Zen koans?
Can you explain why you find the term repulsive or useful without splaining?
More seriously – I’ve been subjected to this phenomenon in the scientific realm, but I view it more as a mode of communication and socialization that men (on average), seem to be comfortable with. Not so different from emotional-splaining we tend to use for social engagements.
“emotional-splaining”
Can you expand on this, I am quite intrigued and it sounds like you’re onto something here…
I was going to ask you to splain Zen koans, but it’s late or early depending on your perspective and didn’t think you’d be awake so I just looked it up on Google. In the spirit of the discussion, you can still splain it if you like. I won’t take offense.
I think the term is pretty repulsive, to be honest. Not only does it sound like something out of high school, all too often I’ve seen it applied to shut out any constructive debate. It’s the same thing with “Check Your Priveledge”: Nothing but an exclusionary, insulting term. Joanna: “I don’t think the men who “mansplain” are trying to do anything bad. I don’t think they even know they’re doing it. They don’t think they’re being patriarchal or misogynistic.” Um, Joanna, this is what I hate about feminism: Automatic assumption of being misogynistic when a man might just be trying… Read more »
Believe me when I say that I know how you feel and have experienced the outrageous use of such lingo but at the end of the day I do agree that in SOME cases its actually true. Just like with creep (don’t let some of the other articles that have been posted here full you, creep shaming is real but there are real creeps out there as well).
Well, frankly, I find the term really annoying. Mansplaining. Why can’t we just say the guy in question is an idiot? That way, we know he’s a idiot because he’s an idiot, not because he has testicles. And for the record, I would also like to say that I have been LECTURED by women endlessly. It’s part of being a human being. We all lecture each other without regard to race, creed, or color. It’s one of our more endearing traits. The idea, once again, that its gendered is not supported by the facts. There, I’m all done with my… Read more »
Precisely, Mark.
If a man is being an idiot or a know-it-all, just put it in that term. Don’t leap to the conclusion that he’s being mysogynistic.
I’m actually fine with calling it that, when a leap is not being made mind you. I’m also fine with calling women out the same way….
What I’m saying is a little more basic. Don’t make it that his gender is causal to his behavior.
There is a very specific feeling to being lectured and invalidated by a man who is acting paternalistic toward you, like you’re a little girl and he knows so much and you know so little. And while I believe women lecture men, and that it feels shitty, the feeling of having been “mansplained” is a very specific feeling. If a woman ‘splains to me in the same sort of tone, it feels different. As I said in my comment… Think about being “henpecked”. It feels different to have a man come to you and tell you a bunch of little… Read more »
Sounds kinda familiar to hearing a woman tell me I don’t now X because I don’t have kids, or seeing men get criticized heavily over their parenting skills by golden-uterus syndrome mothers (individuals I mean, not a generalization of mothers). Both invalidate your ability and knowledge, dismissing it as wrong. I think there is quite a bit of womansplaining when it comes to female dominated areas though, such as childcare, although that could be specific too. It’s sad to see for instance one of those golden uterus mothers act as if the father is a complete bafoon incapable of looking… Read more »
I have a direct supervisor who is a man and an indirect supervisor who is a woman. When the man gives me a project, he tells me what needs to be done and when it has to be completed by. When the woman gives me a project, she tells me what has to be done, when it has to be done by, how I should go about doing it, what resources I should use, etc. Then she’ll ask me if I understand sometimes multiple times. Then she’ll ask for updates and depending on whether she was busy it could be… Read more »
Agreed. Its because I’ve never been splained to by a woman in the manner that men have splained at me. I suggest that that’s why the name has evolved. Then again, I’m not a man and don’t know what it feels like to be splained at by a woman. So I suspect the patronizing “You just don’t quite understand” tone, is similar.
There is a very specific feeling to being lectured and invalidated by a man who is acting paternalistic toward you, like you’re a little girl and he knows so much and you know so little. But that is your perception of it. You could be adding that feeling to men’s comments regardless of men’s actual tone. I am sure there are men who treat women as if women do not know anything. However, I am also sure that some women and many feminists assume men will treat women in a paternalistic way and then react to men based on that… Read more »
Sure, I completely agree with that. But to what degree do men ask me every day here on GMP to hear them in what they’ve felt that women/society/feminists/whomever has done to them? And I do hear that. Just because I didn’t do it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. And there needs to be a certain set of words to describe those things. “Bitched out” and “Henpecked” are the ones that come to my mind as the closest equivalences. And yeah,tons of feminists wish the word “bitch” in all it’s non-dog breeding forms be eliminated. But as a woman, and a… Read more »
But to what degree do men ask me every day here on GMP to hear them in what they’ve felt that women/society/feminists/whomever has done to them? This is different. We are not talking about what women feel that men have done to them. We are talking about using a phrase that feminists (who are the only people I know who use the phrase) know men will find insulting, arguing that it is fair to use because the phrase works for feminists and that men should just accept it. If you said to me, “Listen, I feel like you totally just… Read more »
There is something about this that rubs me wrong… I’m not so young, black and male. I’ve absolutely had people be racist to me and had very different reactions then my peers due to race. The only time I would use a racialized term for it was if I objectively could call someone on racism as opposed to being an asshole. If I hear a racial epithet or reference to either my or the person I’m talking to’s race in a negative situation I can safely assume the person is racist/acting racist. However I am very careful about throwing that… Read more »
You mean like how some women act like all men are children? 😉
It seems to me that mansplaining is more in the ears of the listener than the mind of the ‘splainer.
It’s quite likely both, Peter. Some people patronize. Some people assume they are being patronized. Sometimes it’s both true.
Actually, sorry, that’s true. Some people are very patronising and it’s very much their intent.
I’m with Julie mostly, but I think that’s true of almost all insulting and demeaning things people do. People rarely mean to offend or diminish or silence. That doesn’t mean it’s not happening, or that people don’t get hurt.
Also a good point. I’d agree that sometimes an explaination goes farther than it needs to without the ‘splainer intending to be patronising.
“And while I believe women lecture men, and that it feels shitty, the feeling of having been “mansplained” is a very specific feeling. If a woman ‘splains to me in the same sort of tone, it feels different.” It feels different to you. But your first sentence sets up a comparison of the way mansplaining feels to a women and the way femsplaing feels to a man, and you seem to assume you are actually in a position to compare them. You aren’t. You don’t like a man invalidating your experiences? You are right. Then stop doing it to men,… Read more »
Emotional-groping, pushing the boundaries of a person to open up? Sounds like an interesting concept.
Mansplaining and henpecking, two sides of the same coin. Never thought of it that way. And yes, I talk differently to women versus men. It’s always seemed to be necessary.
I always thought henpecking was more a repetitive, unrelenting attempt to get a man to do something and not necessarily an attempt to offer a man unsolicited advice or impart inaccurate information.
That’s nagging, henpecking is the constant criticism leaving the man feeling like he can never do right, eg a mother criticising a lot how he looks after the kids.
What you’re looking for is FEMSPLAINING: when a woman (often a radical feminist) tells a man how he feels, what he thinks, and why he holds the opinions he does. Because after all, she knows what it means to be a man much better than he does.
Here’s my question – when men talk to each other, do they not consider whether the other man may also know this info before they launch in like know-it-alls? I think many men are simply more sensitive to the fact that a guy might be offended by know-it-all-ing. For the most in my experience no. Men talk over other men in the same ways that men talk over women. I’ve done it and I’ve had it done to me. Which is one reason why this mansplaning thing bothers me because its being propped up as if this is the only… Read more »
This is what I wrote over in the comment of the day called “There is an amazing lack of genuine dialogue between the sexes” Archy left a great response, and if he wants to copy/paste his here, that’d be great. I think there’s something to this “mansplaining” thing that needs to be explored. We’ve been talking about it over in the Ryan Gosling Book piece… The way I see it is this: There are two sorts of truths: The way it FEELS and the way we should try to see things in order to make things better. For instance, mansplaining… Read more »
I think part of it is raising men to be knowledgeable on such things to the point they probably feel the woman is asking them about it, or they see their helpful contribution is to give detail on stuff they feel they know. I’ve explained things to people not assuming they don’t know, but assuming that IF they don’t know now they do, it’s an automatic thing and I’m not sure where it came from. I guess we hear it from other men maybe, and it’s exacerbated when we’re use to people actually asking for help on a subject such… Read more »
Sure, and on the Internet there isn’t the subtle body language and verbal cues for people to let one another know, “Hey, I get this. You don’t need to explain.” The rest of this is not directed specifically to Archy but to the conversation as a whole: However I can attest thoroughly that there are many men who, no matter how much you say, “Yeah, I know that” just keep coming at you with it. Like, Duh you don’t know that, you dumb girl. And while maybe NONE of you on this thread or in this conversation would ever do… Read more »
I don’t doubt that it happens, some folks try to do it to me and I’ve seen it happen once or twice, probably done it myself by accident. I’ve helped a novice with a computer issue, turns out she didn’t know much about one aspect but was fine with other aspects and I just overexplained it all “just in case”. I don’t assume they know, or don’t know, I just threw caution to the wind and explained it hoping they’d speak up if they already knew (please do so ladies, saves me trying to explain it:P). My intention was never… Read more »
I believe that there are people out there who enjoy feeling smarter, superior etc to others. I’ve experienced being ‘splained on many occasions. Often, in the most pure form of gendersplaining, it’s when one gender comes into the world or realm of another and tells them how to do things better. Say, if a male feminist came into a meeting of feminists organizing an event, and proceeded to tell them how they were doing things wrong around the topic of women’s rights. Now, it’s entirely possible that this man knows more about a topic than the women in the room.… Read more »
Yep, it happens all the time and it’s super annoying. The attitude is, “you dumb girl, let me tell you all about this subject” regardless of whether you express any interest in receiving said wisdom, and even if you say repeatedly that you already know all about it. I’ve never had a woman do this to me. To be fair, it’s only a minority of men who act this way, and maybe they do the same thing to their male friends.
“The way I see it is this: There are two sorts of truths: The way it FEELS and the way we should try to see things in order to make things better.” I find this deeply disturbing is this truly what passes for truth? Neither of these two “truths” are actually factual, they have more a sense of “truthiness” rather than truth. They may be real emotions but they are not factual proofs of anything other than how you feel. There are the way things are – fact, and how we feel – emotion, then the way we’d like them… Read more »
Very interesting comment, I agree especially with the going over the same material from a different perspective.
First, Transhuman, you have just invalidated my experiences as a woman. You do not get to decide what experiences I’ve had. I’ve never invalidated any of your experiences. Some people may have, but I’ve never said, “That doesn’t happen”. I’m going to say this one more time — You cannot know what it’s like to be a woman and to be talked down to repeatedly by men. You simply cannot. You can listen to women, and try to empathize. You do not get to decide what my experience is. And I don’t do that to you. I don’t tell you… Read more »
But Joanna, isn’t part of the “quest to meet in the middle” the implicit acknowledgement that your own experience is not the “objective truth.”?
As soon as one party is unwilling to move away from their own experience, then there is no longer any ability to meet in the middle.
What are we supposed to do when one group is simply not going to try and change their viewpoint? How can we get to a middle ground in the face of such stubbornness?
Did I call it “objective truth” ? No, actually I didn’t. In fact, I said there isn’t really any “truth” there is only the experiences and interpretations of others.
Look, I just don’t understand the distinction here: My experience is not the objective truth. My experience may be wrong. Last I checked, these sentences were rough equivalents. And yet the moment the second one gets uttered, everyone involved is accused of “denying the experience of X.” Why isn’t it possible to simply question experience because of the first sentence? If there’s no “truth” then that implies that all experiences may very well be to some degree “lie” (for want of a better word, “misunderstanding” is probably better). How is what Transhuman wrote different from this? Why is he automatically… Read more »
If there is no truth, only subjective experience, then there can be no lies. That path leads to some very interesting conclusions. “You do not get to decide what experiences I’ve had.” Where in my comment did I say to you your experiences have not occurred? I challenged your use of the word “truth”, I presented some examples of how men, in my experience, talk with each other and asked whether men should change how they talk around women. How does any of this “invalidate you as a woman”? How does any of that deny how you feel? Emotions are… Read more »
It is my experience that men don’t oneupmanship each other on knowledge, they enjoy the act of sharing it. This. The enjoying part, at least for me. My wife told me a while back that she found it really annoying when I told her stuff she already knew. She said it came off as a disregard of her knowledge. She mentiones some examples and in a few cases I didn’t know she knew that stuff (she didn’t let me in on at the time that she knew that stuff) other times I was perfectly aware of the fact that she… Read more »
What a great comment, tactic for you both to use and a great insight into introvert/extrovert relations.
So basically a behaviour you do with men that is completely fine, is seen as negative with the women/your wife at least? So isn’t her own perception the part that is truly at fault in misunderstanding a common communication method that apparently doesn’t feel patronizing to the men? I’d say there is a difference between rattling off about how a car engine works vs saying NO, you are wrong, THIS is how a car engine works (which would be lecturing). Mansplaining, or at least some accounts of it is starting to sound like women do not understand typical male communication… Read more »
Yes, she perceived it as annoying. She conveyed that to me and we both made adjustments to minimize that annoyment. My adjustment was to more explicitly acknowledge what she know (which I don’t find difficult at all since she in fact is awesome and knows a lot of stuff) and her adjustement was to believe my explanation of my behaviour even though that differed from her initial belief and to take that into account. I don’t think it would’ve gone so well if I had just insisted to continue doing the same thing without any changes nor if she had… Read more »
Obviously whoever invented it wanted to specifically call out men, but as the comments show here it’s not actually a gendered phenomenom. Maybe it should just be called patronizing explanations? Or splaindowns (Explaining down to someone).
“and men, with frightening regularity, will come up to her and start teaching her about her camera” I think what you’re missing here is that “they are coming up to her and attempting to initiate a conversation, and appear knowledgable and useful (utility) to her. Unfortunately, they are doing so in a patronizing way, given she already knows (but would it be so patronizing if she didn’t know, or would it be appealing? Honest question… does a person knowing a lot about a subject you are interested in but know little appeal to you?). But think about that for a… Read more »
You are right, there are some guys who think that showing off their knowledge is a way to impress women. Usually it isn’t, especially if they end up coming across as patronizing. It can simply be a symptom of social awkwardness. I remember bring on a date once with a guy in high school who knew I was a science and nature geek. He started lecturing me about poisonous snakes. I told him we had just covered poisonous snakes in a field biology class I was taking. He persisted in telling me a lot of “facts” that I knew were… Read more »
remember, high school is where people learn a lot of the do’s and don’ts of gender relations. please don’t use highschool experiences to define how grown men behave. This isn’t to say that grown men fail those social skills as well, just that just because you experienced it in highschool, doesn’t mean experiences that show similarities aren’t for completely different reasons. For example, I mention bellow that (at least in my experience), sometimes that patronizing is actually a man’s way of challenging you to explain something he doesn’t understand. I’m not sure if this is common, or just my own… Read more »
True, but it’s the clearest example I could think of to explain the general talking-down-to that I’ve encountered from some men on occasion throughout my life. I have never called it “mansplaining” though. I call it being condescending or patronizing.
@ sarah
He just didn’t know how to approach women. If he knew you were interested in science and nature, he should have spent time asking questions even if he knew the answers to them. People like talking about things that interest them. They become more comfortable. They have a better time and that impacts their perception of the date. He could have even come up with a line like since I can tell the snakes apart would you mind going on a nature walk with me to set up a second date.
@ Joanna Schroeder “when men talk to each other, do they not consider whether the other man may also know this info before they launch in like know-it-alls?” Is a guy more likely to stop to help another man fix a flat tire or to help a woman fix a flat tire? Instead of being condescending, they may be trying to genuinely be helpful. Guys are less likely to offer other men assistance so probably don’t offer unsolicited advice. There may also be a societal influence, which instills a belief that men do not require assistance. If I had a… Read more »